Thread: Applauding in church Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.
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Posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger (# 8891) on
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Not sure if this belongs here or in purgatory, no doubt a host will advise…..
I’ve started writing a few songs, and have played them in my church a couple of times (more info on my blog).
When I’ve played these songs, the congregation has often applauded me afterwards. I’m not sure how I feel about this – I almost feel as though I’m being applauded for worshipping, which makes me feel uncomfortable.
Is this as big a problem as I’m making it, or am I getting worried about nothing?
Posted by Laurelin (# 17211) on
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I do agree that worship should not be applauded. It's not a performance. Yikes.
OTOH, your congregation are graciously expressing their appreciation at the musical gifts God has blessed you with and that you want to use for His glory. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I don't throw up my hands in horror every time a church fellowship does this - applaud - but I agree it's a fine line and that applause in a worship context should be used very sparingly. The person leading the service should kindly but firmly advise/instruct the congregation thus, IMO.
Hope that helps ..
Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on
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No, worship in services is quite okay for Eccles - enjoy!
dj_ordinaire, your friendly Eccles host
Posted by Anglo Catholic Relict (# 17213) on
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quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
Not sure if this belongs here or in purgatory, no doubt a host will advise…..
I’ve started writing a few songs, and have played them in my church a couple of times (more info on my blog).
When I’ve played these songs, the congregation has often applauded me afterwards. I’m not sure how I feel about this – I almost feel as though I’m being applauded for worshipping, which makes me feel uncomfortable.
Is this as big a problem as I’m making it, or am I getting worried about nothing?
Perhaps if you regard the applause as directed towards the person who gave you the gift of musical ability you will be happier. Then you will be free to join in, and point to the cross, or the ceiling, or wherever will convey that message to the congregation.
Applause is fine, as long as we do not think the credit for our gifts lies with us. We get the credit for the hard work, but the gift comes from God.
Alternatively, write a song about it ...
[ 17. September 2013, 08:36: Message edited by: Anglo Catholic Relict ]
Posted by TheAlethiophile (# 16870) on
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Applauding can be done for a number of reasons, which will depend on the culture.
For example, I recall when pope John Paul II died, the crowds applauded. It seemed, to my British sensibilities, that they were saying 'well done on dying' - though the tv pundits said that this was a way of expressing grief and saying thank you for a life well lived.
In the pentecostal churches I've been a part of, the applause is supposed to be directed to God as a means of expressive worship, though the fact that it tends to occur at the end of songs does lend itself to a misunderstanding that it is directed at the music band.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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Applauding during worship is strictly verboten in Orthodoxy, for the reason Laurelin cited: it's not a performance. Applause for a great musician or speaker takes the focus off God and makes worship like any other concert or lecture.
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on
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We applaud:
(i) to thank the Sunday School children for their report;
(ii) to welcome a newly baptised person into our congregation of Christ's church;
(iii) ditto for confirmees and to congratulate those inducted into church office;
(iv) to farewell parishioners who are moving away; and
(v) to thank the organist for the postlude.
None of these is to do with worship.
Posted by Caissa (# 16710) on
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I'm a fan of applauding. It is a genuine expression of a human emotion.
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
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And is every human emotion one which should be expressed in worship?
Applauding is good for the purposes that PD describes. It is not appropriate for something that is part of worship because worhsip isn't a performance from whichwe are distanced: we should all be participating in worship, even if apparently inactively as prayerful listeners or watchers.
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on
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We tend to applaud for the same things as GeeD. And also a wedding couple as they process back down the aisle after their wedding.
I guess if you are on the receiving end of applause, it's best to quietly smile and say thank you, but not to let yourself get big-headed about it. That's what we do as a choir on the odd occasion when we get applause for something (usually in one of those grey areas which are neither quite 'service' or 'concert', eg. a longer work such as the Faure Requiem).
Posted by Komensky (# 8675) on
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In the bad old days when I attended a big charismatic church in London, the 'worship leader' would get around this by saying 'let's give God (or Jesus) a clap!'. I'm serious.
K.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
When I’ve played these songs, the congregation has often applauded me afterwards.
We don't know how formal your church is. If a certain informality is acceptable, you could preface your performance with a request that all applause be directed to God. If your goal is to create a more formal atmosphere then you or a church leader (or the church notices) might request that worshippers avoid clapping during services.
Posted by bib (# 13074) on
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We solved the problem by putting a note in the weekly church bulletin asking people not to applaud during the worship. I think some people aren't used to church practice and feel they have to applaud as at a concert. Unfortunately once a few start to clap others tend to join in.
Posted by TheAlethiophile (# 16870) on
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quote:
Originally posted by bib:
We solved the problem by putting a note in the weekly church bulletin asking people not to applaud during the worship. I think some people aren't used to church practice and feel they have to applaud as at a concert. Unfortunately once a few start to clap others tend to join in.
Why is it seen as a "problem"? I can understand some people not being used it, if they are particularly stiff-upper-lip, to use the MW terminology. But is it wrong? Can it not count as "a joyful noise unto the Lord"?
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
In the bad old days when I attended a big charismatic church in London, the 'worship leader' would get around this by saying 'let's give God (or Jesus) a clap!'. I'm serious.
K.
I've come across this occasionally. I don't think it's that bad, but maybe I'd be a bit irritated if I had to hear someone say it every week.
Some churches have a culture of open appreciation, and some expect that appreciation to be expressed quietly on the inside. So long as a church knows what type is it then everything should be okay. The problem arises when this isn't clear to everyone present.
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on
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The trouble with commands to applaud God is that if someone doesn't feel comfortable joining in, it looks as if they dislike God. If a way could be found not to draw attention to those who don't wish to join in with a certain group mentality, then it's a much better alternative.
Posted by TheAlethiophile (# 16870) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
if someone doesn't feel comfortable joining in, it looks as if they dislike God.
Could that not apply to just about anything in church? For example, I don't naturally raise my hands in worship. If commanded to raise my hands, I usually stick them in my pockets.
And I never join in with liturgical chanting. I know some like it, but I can't abide it. But then I am a non-conformist, so I rebel against pretty much anything I'm told to do.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
The trouble with commands to applaud God is that if someone doesn't feel comfortable joining in, it looks as if they dislike God. If a way could be found not to draw attention to those who don't wish to join in with a certain group mentality, then it's a much better alternative.
If you really don't like this sort of thing then it would be best not to attend a church where it's part of the culture. In the same vein, if I were in a traditional Anglican church I wouldn't dream of clapping because that's not part of the culture, and the 'group mentality' there would be urging me most powerfully against it!!
We all have to make choices about what aspects of a church we're willing to put up with in order to benefit from those things that we actively value.
Posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger (# 8891) on
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Thanks everyone - I'm sure that the applause isn't meant to glorify me in any way, but a way of the congregation showing their appreciation. We are a very informal church, so it's not going against the grain so to speak.
I suppose that a (large) part of me doesn't feel worthy to be applauded.
Posted by Jonah the Whale (# 1244) on
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I would feel as uncomfortable as the OP. But it is difficult to express that without sounding grumpy. In our church we have a respectful hush when the choir sings an anthem. But when the junior choir does something they get applauded. I am in two or three minds about this. On the one hand people find it natural to show their appreciation and encouragement that way, and to complain just seems ungracious somehow. On the other hand it seems to be making the point that the kids are performing for our entertainment, and it isn't really an act of worship. These are generally very young children, otherwise I'm sure they would feel patronised ("aww, aren't they cute").
What about the organ postlude? Is that entertainment? Background music as people file out of their pews? Or a final act of worship?
Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on
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As part of worship = no
If something rather else = possibly
I had posted in All Saints re joining a new parish which claps after the postlude (link to post.
The problem I see is that we have been dismissed, e.g., Go forth into the world to love and serve God, R=Thanks be to God, and then there's something played. They clap for that. The post-service praying can come after that apparently?
I'm thinking the thing to do is to be tolerant. Make no scene about clapping, but don't do it if you don't like it? Don't know how I'd take clapping, for instance, for a choir anthem in the service proper.
Posted by PaulBC (# 13712) on
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Within the service No
Outside of the srvice i.e. re announcement or when a person is acknowledged yes
Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
I'm a fan of applauding. It is a genuine expression of a human emotion.
So is yelling "God damn it!" when you trip over something. That doesn't mean it's appropriate for church! ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
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quote:
Originally posted by PaulBC:
Within the service No
Outside of the srvice i.e. re announcement or when a person is acknowledged yes
For some reason - and I am not sure why - I long ago accquired the exact opposite prejudice. Clapping people in church is just something Not Done. You don't applaud the musicians or speakers however good they are. Its not a concert. Its not about boosting each others pride or position. It sort of goes along with not having national flags in church, or not making distinctions of secular rank. That's noot what church is for.
Applauding God, on the other hand, seems perfectly acceptable. We'er in church to worship God, clapping uis a way of exrepssing praise, so no fundamental problem in using it as part of public worhsip. I don't like doing it it much, and I can't imagine I'd ever include it in a service I was planning or leading, but that's just a sort of cultural habit. I don't speak Chinese, so I am unlikely to worship God in Chinese, but I'd ahve no problme with others doing so.
Genuinely unsure where I got the prejudice from. I don't remember ever hearing anyone preaching about it, we certainly have no rules about it, but somewhere in the back of my mind is "Thou Shalt Not Applaud In Church".
Maybe its one of those things that's not the official teaching of our churches but you pick up anyway - like not having breakfast before Communion (not that I'd be likely to as I'd rather stay in bed, but some peopel might) Or the idea that you need to be confirmed before taking Communion. That's not at all a rule of the Church of England these days (and if it ever was its well before my time) but in our parish at least we seem to almost universally adopt it by the unconfirmed voluntarily abstaining even though no-one told them to and no-one would refuse them if they did come up.
Posted by TheAlethiophile (# 16870) on
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To those who are opposed to applauding in church, why?
It would be easier for to accept, for example, Fr Weber's position, if it could be explained what the grounds are for saying it's not appropriate in church.
Is there a committee for deciding what is and isn't appropriate, or is there some biblical basis for shunning it?
[ 17. September 2013, 16:00: Message edited by: TheAlethiophile ]
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
For some reason - and I am not sure why - I long ago accquired the exact opposite prejudice. Clapping people in church is just something Not Done. You don't applaud the musicians or speakers however good they are. Its not a concert. Its not about boosting each others pride or position.
What is interesting is that some people feel reticent in applauding performers when a concert or play is given in church (i.e. as an entertainment, not as part of worship); and some churches actively discourage applause as something "disrespectful for a place of worship".
Not only IMO does that leave the artistes feeling singularly unappreciated, but it draws an uncomfortable line between the supposedly "sacred" and "secular" and fails to recognise the fact that the talents and creativity on display are God-given.
[ 17. September 2013, 16:04: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on
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quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
To those who are opposed to applauding in church, why?
It would be easier for to accept, for example, Fr Weber's position, if it could be explained what the grounds are for saying it's not appropriate in church.
Is there a committee for deciding what is and isn't appropriate, or is there some biblical basis for shunning it?
It's not something we do, because it makes the service seem like a concert--as though it's about the choir, or the priest.
But my post was really about pointing up the weakness of Caissa's argument more than propping up my position. I am aware that in some church cultures applause is okay, and I'm not really interested in arguing against that.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Not only IMO does that leave the artistes feeling singularly unappreciated,
If you're playing or singing in order to feel appreciated, you're doing it for the wrong reason, and arguably when the applause dies down, "you have received your reward in full."
When I sing in the choir, I sing to praise God, and because (this is the selfish part) I like singing. Most of the time my "recognition" is my friend A. making covert hand signals to let me know I'm singing flat.
[ 17. September 2013, 16:16: Message edited by: mousethief ]
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on
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I think our society in general has lost some of its repertoire of styles of expression. Apparently now the only way to show appreciation at the end of a performance of music is to clap as loudly as possible and maybe hoot as well. Likewise, a church service is like any other meeting, and might as well spend the minutes before it starts catching up on conversation or risk being thought unfriendly.
Some churches (I think our parish church is one) have been fortunate to have long ago developed an atmosphere of prayerful silence. Even those who enter our building chatting tend to stop as soon as they enter the nave, as it's usually devoid of conversation...it looks and seems different. I've always loved that about our church and wish such an atmosphere were easily instituted into a church that doesn't yet have it.
Anyway, clapping isn't unknown in our church, and sometimes it's requested by a celebrant during the announcements, as a legitimate expression of appreciation for someone, or a congratulations (showing thanks to the choir for a heavy Holy Week of excellent singing, etc.). But it's never expected by the musicians (although politely acknowledged when it happens).
Posted by S. Bacchus (# 17778) on
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Not applauding during services strikes me as one of the most basic pieces of church etiquette. I've known (and, in one instance, dated) people who didn't know that men normally remove their hats within a church, but even all knew that applause wasn't appropriate. I've never heard anyone applaud the choir in any English cathedral, or other church with a choral tradition. Applause after the postlude is more divided, I would guess that the odds are about three to one against. I don't know how I feel about such applause, but I tend to follow local custom.
We do applaud certain things in church. Most recently the licensing of a new curate. I think also baptisms and confirmations. It's probably a bit naff, but I don't mind.
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on
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quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
We do applaud certain things in church. Most recently the licensing of a new curate. I think also baptisms and confirmations. It's probably a bit naff, but I don't mind.
A few times I've experienced applause rather than the expected liturgical response in our Baptismal rite. It should go like this, after the Baptism and anointing:
Celebrant: Let us welcome the newly baptized.
People: We receive you into the household of God. Confess the faith of Christ crucified, proclaim his resurrection, and share with us in his eternal priesthood.
But in at least two instances I've experienced, it has gone this way:
Celebrant, rather loudly: Let us welcome the newly baptized!
People: <clapping> Yay! Hoot! Woo!
And then a sheepish rendition of the expected text started by a few who didn't hoot or clap. Giggles all around.
I think it helps if the Celebrant uses a moderate tone of voice and doesn't invite clapping and hooting by shouting the "Let us welcome..." bit.
And I know the louder impromptu response isn't entirely inappropriate for the occasion, but perhaps it could erupt after the welcoming text is recited. Then everyone will be clearer what we mean by the hootin' and hollerin'. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by Caissa (# 16710) on
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I do not believe there is any legitimate theological reason for eschewing clapping in church. It seems curmudgeonly to oppose clapping. I don't need a strong argument to defend clapping, the onus lies on those who wish to ban it since they perceive it as undignified. It is a perfectly natural human reaction to clap to express pleasure.
Posted by Wm Dewy (# 16712) on
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quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
To those who are opposed to applauding in church, why?
Because what we say and do in church should be for the greater glory of God and not for the admiration of our fellow sinners.
While the Kingdom of God should be a loving family, it isn't called to be a mutual admiration society.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Not only IMO does that leave the artistes feeling singularly unappreciated,
If you're playing or singing in order to feel appreciated, you're doing it for the wrong reason, and arguably when the applause dies down, "you have received your reward in full."
When I sing in the choir, I sing to praise God, and because (this is the selfish part) I like singing. Most of the time my "recognition" is my friend A. making covert hand signals to let me know I'm singing flat.
You didn't read my post properly. I was quite specifically NOT referring to worship - in which I agree with you 100% - but to concerts or plays put on in church buildings (for instance, Aldeburgh Music in Suffolk often uses Iken and Blythburgh churches; these are paid-for commercial events). IMO applause is perfectly justified at such events; but some churches discourage or prohibit it.
[ 17. September 2013, 17:22: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
I do not believe there is any legitimate theological reason for eschewing clapping in church. It seems curmudgeonly to oppose clapping. I don't need a strong argument to defend clapping, the onus lies on those who wish to ban it since they perceive it as undignified. It is a perfectly natural human reaction to clap to express pleasure.
I don't think anyone's said we shouldn't clap because it's undignified. Those who oppose clapping seem to do so on the grounds that it shifts the focus from the worship of God, turning the congregation into an audience and the liturgy into a performance.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
I'm a fan of applauding. It is a genuine expression of a human emotion.
So is yelling "God damn it!" when you trip over something. That doesn't mean it's appropriate for church!
I've said far worse than that!
Fortunately, my microphone was turned off.
[ 17. September 2013, 17:28: Message edited by: leo ]
Posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger (# 8891) on
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quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
To those who are opposed to applauding in church, why?
I'm not opposed to applauding as such, I just get embarrassed when it's aimed at me.
quote:
Is there a committee for deciding what is and isn't appropriate?
Yes, it's the old ladies on the back row
Posted by Gildas (# 525) on
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quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
Thanks everyone - I'm sure that the applause isn't meant to glorify me in any way, but a way of the congregation showing their appreciation. We are a very informal church, so it's not going against the grain so to speak.
I suppose that a (large) part of me doesn't feel worthy to be applauded.
Oh, look - if you play a nice tune people like and do it reasonably well you are good for a round of applause. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with applause. I prefer to discourage it because I think it important to make the distinction between worship and entertainment but generally people who applaud are not saying: "this means no more to me than a concert" or "All Hail The Children's Choir! Avatar Of Cthulhu Called To Supplant The Impostor Yahweh!" They are saying "We liked that, thank you". There are occasions depending on local context where people are going to want, nay, expect to applaud and if one takes issue with this one is going to come across as ungracious. If you have a choice between applause in church and coming across as a grumpy old so and so, applause wins every time. I don't know what your part of the Lord's Vineyard is like but in my neck of the woods "NO ONE MUST APPLAUD IN CHURCH EVER AGAIN" is approximately 5784th in the list of challenges confronting Christendom.
If you are really uncomfortable with the applause tell your pastor and he can have a word with the congregation and explain why it might be better for them not to applaud (You might have to stand at the church door with him and expect their thanks one by one - be careful what you wish for!)
But the bottom line is: it's cool they like you, it's cool they like your music and it's cool they want to show that appreciation to you. As the IT people say, that's not a bug, that's a feature.
Posted by Gwalchmai (# 17802) on
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In our church we applaud the children when they show us what they have been doing in Children's church which I think is entirely justified because it somehow brings the children and the adults together. OK, for the puritanicals among you, it isn't part of the liturgy.
We also applaud the newly baptised and the newly confirmed (the latter as instructed by the bishop) which is liturgical but is an entirely appropriate way of welcoming new members into the Church.
I don't recall applause during the service otherwise, although there have been occasions I feel like applauding the preacher. I have never come across the choir being applauded when singing during a service (as opposed to a concert performance) - although in my present church the choir are not yet of an applaudable standard!
Posted by Vulpior (# 12744) on
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My experience is the same as Gee D. The post-postlude applause is the one I least like, but I do join in with a restrained clap when I've sat and listened to the whole thing; it seems churlish not to join with the others who are also doing so.
Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on
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I stand firmly in the ranks of the cautious applauders, with a cautious applause for GeeD's exceptions. However I will never forget one sacred moment at St Paul's Cathedral in Melbourne, traditionally a rather stuffy place. It was the late '80s, at a double consecration (i.e. the consecration of two bishops, Butterss and Hollingworth).The Grand Old Man™ of the diocese, two archbishops back Sir Frank Woods, tiny, frail, with his voice little more than a whisper (though still able to convey his Oxbridge accent!) delivered an absolutely cutting edge sermon, weaving in and out of current affairs, sacramental theology, liberation theology and biblical scholarship. When he finished there was a stunned silence.
Was it then the cathedral erupted in deafening, spontaneous applause, or later, as he shuffled down the aisle dwarfed by his own crozier ... Or both? All I know is it remains one of the holiest moments of my life.
He died soon afterwards.
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
We also applaud the newly baptised and the newly confirmed (the latter as instructed by the bishop) which is liturgical but is an entirely appropriate way of welcoming new members into the Church.
Likewise. We have also recently applauded a couple who were celebrating a milestone wedding anniversary, people whose term of service on the Vestry have finished, and so on. All these kinds of applause take place during the announcements.
quote:
I have never come across the choir being applauded when singing during a service (as opposed to a concert performance)
Interestingly, in our church, the people who like modern worship music tend to applaud, whereas the people who like traditional choral music tend to find applause inappropriate.
As a result, the "worship singers" get lots of applause, but the choir doesn't.
Posted by Trickydicky (# 16550) on
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Worship is offered to God.
By people.
And because it is people who are offering worship, emotions will be part of it.
Yes, there are problems - the focus is God, not us (so I mutter a quiet thanks to the reader as they return to their seats, not a public one).
But Zappa's story clearly shows that applause can be utterly appropriate in church.
What about other emotions? Psalms is full of them. Anyone read psalm 137 in church - in its entirety? Psalm 88 is so despairing that it doesn't even offer a glimmer of hope. How can we express those emotions in worship, and address them to God?
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on
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I've been to concerts in church, particularly at certain times of the year e.g. Lent, when the purpose has been devotional, even though it is a concert. At times like these, the intention is best made clear at the start - by saying something like 'We wish to offer this music as a devotion, therefore it would be appropriate if you would refrain from applauding until the end of the last item'. The respectful hush during the concert is often most moving. And the applause at the end all the more warm because of the atmosphere engendered.
I guess the same probably applies to church services - some are much more obviously thoughtful and reflective, others more like praise festivals. To make the intention clear, some instruction should be given at the start of the service if a particular behaviour is thought especially appropriate or inappropriate for the circumstances.
[ 18. September 2013, 21:19: Message edited by: Chorister ]
Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on
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I have certainly given God a round of applause in worship. It is something our more Charismatic brothers and sisters do.
Jengie
Posted by PaulBC (# 13712) on
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by PaulBC:
Within the service No
Outside of the srvice i.e. re announcement or when a person is acknowledged yes
For some reason - and I am not sure why - I long ago accquired the exact opposite prejudice. Clapping people in church is just something Not Done. You don't applaud the musicians or speakers however good they are. Its not a concert. Its not about boosting each others pride or position. It sort of goes along with not having national flags in church, or not making distinctions of secular rank. That's noot what church is for.
Applauding God, on the other hand, seems perfectly acceptable. We'er in church to worship God, clapping uis a way of exrepssing praise, so no fundamental problem in using it as part of public worhsip. I don't like doing it it much, and I can't imagine I'd ever include it in a service I was planning or leading, but that's just a sort of cultural habit. I don't speak Chinese, so I am unlikely to worship God in Chinese, but I'd ahve no problme with others doing so.
Genuinely unsure where I got the prejudice from. I don't remember ever hearing anyone preaching about it, we certainly have no rules about it, but somewhere in the back of my mind is "Thou Shalt Not Applaud In Church".
Maybe its one of those things that's not the official teaching of our churches but you pick up anyway - like not having breakfast before Communion (not that I'd be likely to as I'd rather stay in bed, but some peopel might) Or the idea that you need to be confirmed before taking Communion. That's not at all a rule of the Church of England these days (and if it ever was its well before my time) but in our parish at least we seem to almost universally adopt it by the unconfirmed voluntarily abstaining even though no-one told them to and no-one would refuse them if they did come up.
Ken
Not too many years ago we as a church were read the riot act on clapping in church.
The main theme was that this is a worship service not a concert . Applause after the service for announcements, or acknowledging an indvidual how ever is acceptable .
PaulBC
Posted by Al Eluia (# 864) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
In the bad old days when I attended a big charismatic church in London, the 'worship leader' would get around this by saying 'let's give God (or Jesus) a clap!'. I'm serious.
K.
I attended a similar church long ago. WL would say, "Let's give the Lord a clap offering" or something like that. In defense of the practice, clapping as praise to God is mentioned in the Psalms.
At my current church we'll applaud the children's choir and the newly baptized, not much else.
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
I attended a similar church long ago. WL would say, "Let's give the Lord a clap offering" or something like that. In defense of the practice, clapping as praise to God is mentioned in the Psalms.
At my current church we'll applaud the children's choir and the newly baptized, not much else.
Clapping as worship would be quite OK, but that's not our style. It's clapping someone's contribution to worship that's not. I can understand the applause for ++ Wood, a good man near the end of his ministry, and if it were at the recession, then it would have out of worship in any event*.
*At St Paul's Manuka, the dismissal is done from the west end of the nave, so there's little of the recession left after that.
Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on
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Quite simply, worship is directed to God. It is not entertainment for the congregation (nor are they an audience -- if there is an audience at all, it is God who is the audience of our worship). Thus, the choir, soloists, and priest are not performers, except insofar as they are "performing" an act of worship directed to God. The idea of the congregation applauding an act of worship in which all in attendance are participating is simply bassackwards (to use an Americanism that seems fitting).
[ 19. September 2013, 02:32: Message edited by: Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras ]
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
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Last time I sang a solo (Eye Hath Not Seen - dramatic song) I was glad no one clapped, feels awkward to me when people do, but a woman at coffee told me it felt awkward not to clap.
Hmm, can we get to a "place" where there's no wondering "am I supposed to clap or not" if a few do? So those who want to as a natural response can without feeling out of place and without making others wonder if they supposed to clap also? Making people feel socially awkward is not what the moment is supposed to be about.
Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on
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I don't clap at concerts. Why should I do so in church?
Posted by Gwalchmai (# 17802) on
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Psalm 47 seems to give full biblical authority for applause during worship:
O clap your hands all ye people; shout unto God with the voice of triumph.
On the other hand, readers of the Signs and Blunders page will understand why it is not a good idea to talk about giving people "a clap", or even worse, "the clap".
Posted by Caissa (# 16710) on
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Frankly, I can't imagine God having any objection to people clapping in appreciation of a good anthem etc. during a worship service. Now stodgy humans objecting, that's believeable.
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
Psalm 47 seems to give full biblical authority for applause during worship:
O clap your hands all ye people; shout unto God with the voice of triumph.
On the other hand, readers of the Signs and Blunders page will understand why it is not a good idea to talk about giving people "a clap", or even worse, "the clap".
That's clapping God. Not clapping a performance. (Why should the children's choir be clapped and not the others? Isn't that just patronising? Aren't there other ways of being supportive?)
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
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It may be patronising to applaud children, but that's what they expect and they will feel that church is unwelcoming if we don't.
And if we explain to them that it isn't usual to clap in church, they'll just see us as being mean.
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
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Cobblers
Posted by Graven Image (# 8755) on
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We applaud the children, for their artwork displayed after Sunday School or for a song they sang. We applaud at the end of the service, bride and groom leaving, new choir formed, new rector after installation and such.
I was once in a cathedral for a children's day and the Bishop asked all the children to turn around and look at the window dedicated to Creation and applaud God for what God had done. That worked for me as 150 little hands clapped and several young voices shouted. "Hurrah for God. " As a guest preacher I have been applauded. ??????? Not sure if that was their usual custom. Felt very uncomfortable. I have a real problem with applause during the service as it is most always directed toward a person and is not worship of God.
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
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Quite. And we can explain that to children and other people who might otherwise expect to be applauded.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Graven Image:
I have a real problem with applause during the service as it is most always directed toward a person and is not worship of God.
Bingo.
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on
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Albertus, Mousethief ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
What really bugs me is not just applauding "because they're children" (so why no applause for the enterprising AND YOUNG squirrel that appeared in the pulpit ledge a couple of years ago?) but applauding even when the Sunday School singing is, frankly, so bad as to be embarrassing ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
.
As for clapping at weddings: WHY? The couple haven't done anything particularly brilliant, just repeated some words. But DO applaud them 25 years later when they come to church still married perhaps.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Quite. And we can explain that to children and other people who might otherwise expect to be applauded.
So have you ever tried explaining this to children, especially those whose hold on the church is tenuous?
Or to non-churchgoers attending a baptism or wedding?
or to regular churchgoers at an ordination?> (It's actually written into our services for the making of deacons and ordinations of priests 'the congregation shall now applaud' or some such.
Can't remember what happens at the consecration of a bishop since it's over 20 years since i last attended one.
Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
I don't clap at concerts. Why should I do so in church?
I do clap at concerts. That's why I don't in church.
I wonder if Zen Buddhist congregations clap with one hand?
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on
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leo -
There is a total difference between the congregation participating in the liturgy by clapping, typically with ordinations, baptisms, weddings, or in certain songs ("let the trees of the earth all clap their hands (clap) clap their hands..) ie liturgical participation
and applauding a performer of whatever age because they've done a nice turn, ie being a passive audience.
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on
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I did attend an ordination in which the bishop, after the laying on of hands says to the congregation "Let us give them a spontaneous round of applause".
Plonker. If you've told us to do it, it is no longer spontaneous. If he'd just begun clapping and we'd joined in (and I was very happy to do so) it would have been spontaneous. Man with no style.
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Quite. And we can explain that to children and other people who might otherwise expect to be applauded.
So have you ever tried explaining this to children, especially those whose hold on the church is tenuous?
Or to non-churchgoers attending a baptism or wedding?
or to regular churchgoers at an ordination?> (It's actually written into our services for the making of deacons and ordinations of priests 'the congregation shall now applaud' or some such.
Can't remember what happens at the consecration of a bishop since it's over 20 years since i last attended one.
Well maybe explaining the point to children would be a way of making their hold on the church less tenuous- and indeed of making the point that in church they are not going to be patronised but that their contribution is going to be taken seriously and valued as much as any adult's.
Applauding at a wedding, ordination, or baptism is IME not at all the same thing as applauding the choir or a piece of liturgical drama or whatever. Applause to welcome a new member of the Church by baptism, or to congratulate an ordinand or a married couple on the step that they have just taken, is perfectly in order and I join in enthusiastically when we do it. There, it is entirely appropriately directed towards the people that you are applauding, as an expression of joy and love and support.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Quite. And we can explain that to children and other people who might otherwise expect to be applauded.
So have you ever tried explaining this to children, especially those whose hold on the church is tenuous?
You are seriously proposing that there are children whose decision to remain in church rests on whether or not they get applauded by the congregation. Good arfing grief.
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Plonker. If you've told us to do it, it is no longer spontaneous. If he'd just begun clapping and we'd joined in (and I was very happy to do so) it would have been spontaneous. Man with no style.
Or no dictionary.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
You are seriously proposing that there are children whose decision to remain in church rests on whether or not they get applauded by the congregation. Good arfing grief.
The link that keeps British children in mainstream churches is tenuous. Barring the churches in affluent areas, or churches that offer access to 'good schools', most churches will have very few children, and those who do come will be thinking of dropping out by the age of ten or eleven. So I can well understand that failing to acknowledge the children's contributions in some obvious way would be considered a bad move in many congregations.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
You are seriously proposing that there are children whose decision to remain in church rests on whether or not they get applauded by the congregation. Good arfing grief.
The link that keeps British children in mainstream churches is tenuous. Barring the churches in affluent areas, or churches that offer access to 'good schools', most churches will have very few children, and those who do come will be thinking of dropping out by the age of ten or eleven. So I can well understand that failing to acknowledge the children's contributions in some obvious way would be considered a bad move in many congregations.
And the only obvious way that would do the trick is applause? Because that's what Leo is putting forward.
Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
On the other hand, readers of the Signs and Blunders page will understand why it is not a good idea to talk about giving people "a clap", or even worse, "the clap".
Well, with all those "Jesus is my boyfriend" songs going around, it's bound to happen sooner or later.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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mousethief
The point is that churches are fearful of putting people off. Telling the children and their parents and/or grandparents that clapping was no longer allowed might be taken as a snub. The church leadership would be accused of being spoilsports....
What happens at your church when the kids do something?
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
mousethief
The point is that churches are fearful of putting people off. Telling the children and their parents and/or grandparents that clapping was no longer allowed might be taken as a snub. The church leadership would be accused of being spoilsports....
What happens at your church when the kids do something?
We don't have entertainment in the main church. If the kids do something, it's in some other room, probably the fellowship hall, and then they can be applauded.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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In most of the churches I know, the children spend most of the service in another room participating in their own activities. Before the end of the service they return to the main worship hall to share what they've been doing with the adults. This sharing isn't necessarily seen as 'entertainment'. It might simply involve the preacher asking the children questions about the Bible stories they've been reading. The children might hold up their drawings. They might sing a new song they've been practising, but that doesn't happen every week.
In these churches applauding the children serves as encouragement rather than anything else. But each denomination no doubt has its own way of making the children feel involved.
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
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But does it make them feel involved? Very young kids, perhaps. But what about the slightly older ones? I can remember starting to be very sensitive to possible patronage from the age of about 10 or 11. I absolutely hated any feeling of 'aah, haven't you done well?' Better, I think, to start to get kids involved as soon as possible in a way that lets them know that they are not only valued but taken as seriously as anybody else.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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In Orthodoxy, children worship with us. The little ones crawl around on the floor, run around at times, spend time being held by various "aunts" and "uncles." But they worship with us because worship is something for all the people of God, not just the grown-ups. We also commune infants from the time of their baptism. Slightly older ones can serve in the altar or be assigned duties during worship. (Five year olds going around snuffing out candles that have burned too low is delightful to see.)
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
But does it make them feel involved? Very young kids, perhaps. But what about the slightly older ones? I can remember starting to be very sensitive to possible patronage from the age of about 10 or 11. I absolutely hated any feeling of 'aah, haven't you done well?' Better, I think, to start to get kids involved as soon as possible in a way that lets them know that they are not only valued but taken as seriously as anybody else.
Certainly, churches that have better ways of involving the children should stick with what they have. But for the average MOTR church, what would not applauding the kids achieve?
mousethief
It sounds as though the Orthodox Church is less restrained than this conversation might suggest; if little kids are allowed to toddle about and wriggle and chatter in their parents' arms then there's clearly a more relaxed atmosphere than 'absolutely no clapping' would suggest.
I don't know for sure, but in the UK I suspect that most Orthodox churches are ethnic minority churches. This probably makes a difference to the general atmosphere and to the retention of young people. Trying to re-create the same thing in a mainstream Protestant church with a mostly indigenous congregation would be a challenge, to put it mildly.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
It sounds as though the Orthodox Church is less restrained than this conversation might suggest; if little kids are allowed to toddle about and wriggle and chatter in their parents' arms then there's clearly a more relaxed atmosphere than 'absolutely no clapping' would suggest.
You appear to have been laboring under a misconception -- that the reason we don't clap in church is because we're uptight. Despite being told repeatedly the real reason. I wonder why that is.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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mousethief
Okay, I've seen the light - you're all a laid-back bunch of people with a respectful attitude towards worship! To be fair, I've only ever attended an Orthodox church service on a visit to Ukraine, and I have no idea what the others are like. The experience in Ukraine was interesting, but very different from what I'm used to.
As I say, each denomination has its traditions, and each congregation exists in a different social and cultural environment. I suppose it makes little sense for us to make blanket statements about what a church should or shouldn't do without bearing all of these things in mind. It'd make more sense to say that everyone should just leave their denomination and circumstances and be part of ours instead!
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
In most of the churches I know, the children spend most of the service in another room participating in their own activities. Before the end of the service they return to the main worship hall to share what they've been doing with the adults. This sharing isn't necessarily seen as 'entertainment'. It might simply involve the preacher asking the children questions about the Bible stories they've been reading. The children might hold up their drawings. They might sing a new song they've been practising, but that doesn't happen every week.
In these churches applauding the children serves as encouragement rather than anything else.
Yes - that's largely what we do in my shack. I am somewhat reserved and don't like applauding things but I do so with the rest of the congo. because I want the Church to continue into the future. The culture these children have inherited is very different from the buttoned-up culture in which i grew up.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
On the other hand, readers of the Signs and Blunders page will understand why it is not a good idea to talk about giving people "a clap", or even worse, "the clap".
Well, with all those "Jesus is my boyfriend" songs going around, it's bound to happen sooner or later.
Glad you said that - I have been thinking it all along on this thread but was too reserved to admit it.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
You are seriously proposing that there are children whose decision to remain in church rests on whether or not they get applauded by the congregation. Good arfing grief.
The link that keeps British children in mainstream churches is tenuous. Barring the churches in affluent areas, or churches that offer access to 'good schools', most churches will have very few children, and those who do come will be thinking of dropping out by the age of ten or eleven. So I can well understand that failing to acknowledge the children's contributions in some obvious way would be considered a bad move in many congregations.
And the only obvious way that would do the trick is applause? Because that's what Leo is putting forward.
Not so much the applause per se but the knowledge that we old folks value their contribution.
In today's culture, applause is the way in which most people show value.
However, it shouldn't stop there, any more than the handshake of peace should stop there and not continue with an attempt to relate to other people over coffee or whatever.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Okay, I've seen the light - you're all a laid-back bunch of people with a respectful attitude towards worship!
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
In today's culture, applause is the way in which most people show value.
I value lots of things I don't applaud. Mostly if I applaud it is to celebrate a performance, usually of musicians, occasionally a sports team, sometimes the recipient of an award. I don't much anything else. I don't applaud my car if it gets me somewhere. I don't applaud a delicious dinner. I don't applaud my friends if I meet them in the street. I don't applaud if I see a bookshop or a hospital, or a water works.
I certainly don't applaud the Blessed Sacrament, or images of our Lady, or even - in the normal run of things - bishops.
So, no, applause is not the normal way that people show value, except in a handful of particular cases. You might argue that extending these cases to the presence of children in church is a good idea. Fair enough. I've heard worse ideas.
But the idea that applause is a normative manner or showing value in everyday life is false, and quite clearly so.
Posted by Caissa (# 16710) on
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Positive reinforcement increases the likelihood that someone will repeat an act. Applause is a form of positve reinforcement.
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
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But not the only one. And it's not positive if it causes embarassment to the person(s) being applauded.
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on
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During yesterday's service, the band was on an unexpected journey, so I picked up the guitar and accompanied the songs. At one point, someone was shouting "B flat! G minor!" in my ear because the chords weren't annotated
Luckily, I didn't get an applause. I mean, all of us were singing together. I did get a "Thank you" after the service, though.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
Positive reinforcement increases the likelihood that someone will repeat an act. Applause is a form of positve reinforcement.
So is giving candy. So is saying, "Thank you." So is a shiny new toy. This doesn't constitute an argument for applause, only an argument for positive reinforcement.
Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on
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Hosting
A segue into the place of children in church would
a) be an RIP GG,
and
b) make the baby Jesus cry
Please hold your applause after this announcement.
Please discuss applause in church.
/Hosting
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
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quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
I certainly don't applaud the Blessed Sacrament, or images of our Lady
Not my cup of tea but you'll find catholic charismatics who applaud doth of those.
Posted by Wild Organist (# 12631) on
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I was once organist at a church where, at the end of the service, those still present applauded. I took it (and said as much to anyone who would listen) that this was for the entire service, just as much as any perceived value in the postlude. However, this did not stop the minister (whose 25-minute sermons were attracting criticism at the churchwardens for their length, amongst other things) putting a note in the weekly sheet for a few weeks, banning applause at the and of the service.
I got moaned at for this, not the priest, but then...
I think I lasted another 12 months at that church before the atmosphere became intolerable.
This is one reason why this organist is wild, free-range and 'organic'.
Posted by Caissa (# 16710) on
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We had four rounds of applause at the main service yesterday. The choir director/organist sang two solos, the choir performed an anthem, an our outreach coordinator received sponsorship to attend some courses with Threshold Ministries.
Each time a hearty round of applause was given. Thanks be to God.
Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on
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At the church I visited Sunday, the choir sang a lovely hymn, with descants, and I immediately tensed up waiting for the congregational applause that would have no doubt happened in my regular congregation...to my relief, it didn't happen here. There was applause, however, later in the service when two children -- foster kids whose official adoption had become final this past week, whose story was something the congregation had been prayerfully following since their adoptive mom had begun fostering them -- were baptized and presented to the congregation. That applause I didn't mind one bit.
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on
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Sunday morning
The choir sang beautifully, including a complicated verse anthem = no applause.
Sunday School children walked up aisle carrying various items as adult was reading out script concerning symbolism of harvest = rapturous applause.
Sunday evening
Choir again on good form, I finished off service with big recital piece = nothing.
Local school children sang to recorded music, all cluthing pieces of paper, lots of off-key growling = applause and cheering.
Am I missing something here? I thought applause was to do with being a reward for an accomplishment, not just for standing up (or walking in a straight line).
[ 08. October 2013, 11:11: Message edited by: L'organist ]
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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People like to see kids participating, making a bit of an effort. It's cute.
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
It may be patronising to applaud children, but that's what they expect and they will feel that church is unwelcoming if we don't.
And if we explain to them that it isn't usual to clap in church, they'll just see us as being mean.
Hardly, if we also explain to them why it isn't usual to clap in church.
I remember one choir director's frustration when a congregation applauded for the children's choir—"I've spent weeks teaching them what worship is about and why they shouldn't expect applause . . . ."
That said, it's all a matter of what applause means within a given culture. Applause in a congregation of the frozen chosen has a different meaning from applause in a typical African-American congregation, for instance.
Posted by Nick Tamen (# 15164) on
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Quite. And we can explain that to children and other people who might otherwise expect to be applauded.
So have you ever tried explaining this to children, especially those whose hold on the church is tenuous?
Yes. They had no problem at all understanding it.
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
It may be patronising to applaud children, but that's what they expect and they will feel that church is unwelcoming if we don't.
And if we explain to them that it isn't usual to clap in church, they'll just see us as being mean.
If your church's children are particularly thick, perhaps.
Posted by lily pad (# 11456) on
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Leo, that's not so.
Our younger teens did a dramatic presentation of the Passion Story. They exited straight down the centre aisle in total silence. They were thoroughly impressed with themselves as they realized they had offered something that was truly worship. They had passed from "delighting" the adults and actually moved into leading them in a deeper form of worship. These were their reflections not mine. I delighted in their awe at how the congregation had received them.
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
We had four rounds of applause at the main service yesterday. The choir director/organist sang two solos, the choir performed an anthem, an our outreach coordinator received sponsorship to attend some courses with Threshold Ministries.
Each time a hearty round of applause was given. Thanks be to God.
What I see wrong with most of that, Caissa, is that it is applauding someone's act of worship. Do you applaud the celebrant for getting though the eucharistic prayer without a hiccup? But the applause for the co-ordinator receiving sponsorship is, for me, appropriate.
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on
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I'm with Gee D on this one.
Posted by Caissa (# 16710) on
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Well, the congregation saw nothing wrong with applauding people for using their God given talents in praise of God.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Do you applaud the celebrant for getting though the eucharistic prayer without a hiccup? .
They do at one of the charismatic evangelical churches here. I think it is some sort of welcoming Jesus though i don't think their theology sees a direct link between the elements and Christ.
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
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Now that's an interesting idea (seriously): applauding, rather than ringing the bell, at the consecration. Not sure I'd feel comfortable with it but I could see it might make sense in a way.
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