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The original Greek text used "We Believe" because this Creed reflects the belief of the whole Church as a united body, as contrasted with the Apostles' Creed which is a personal profession of faith used at baptism.

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Argh! How wrong can this possibly get? The original (which indeed happened to be in Greek) was in the plural because it was part of a conciliar decree. The liturgical form in Greek has always been the singular. It's even generally referred to as το πιστεύω ("the I-believe"). The sense of this should be obvious: we are each pronouncing his continued assent to what the Church once agreed in a general council.

(And really, if they want to play "the original Greek", what do they think they're doing including the Filioque? Oh yes, there's a footnote on that one in the service book. )

It is only the West that uses the Apostles' Creed in the Baptism service; Eastern Orthodoxy uses the Nicene Creed. This is directly parallel to the Nicene Creed being added to the Communion service in the West at a comparatively late date (according to Dix, the dates are Antioch 473, Constantinople 511, Spain 589 (and that after the Fraction!), Gaul 798, and Rome 1014). In both of these cases, this merely reflects the greater perception of the problem of Arianism — both as a risk of converts being misled and among the faithful, particularly the clergy — in the East, with the West preserving the older usage of a simpler pre-Nicene creed at Baptism and no creed at all at the Communion.

Why is it that "the original Greek" is such a sure sign that someone doesn't know either (a) anywhere near enough Greek or (b) what they're talking about? </rant>

Non-rant-type portion of post

Generally, this is a good attempt at achieving a modern-language service that doesn't go too far along the road of trite 1970s paraphrase. The simple change of "And also with you" biting the dust goes a long way.

Things I think could be better:
Morning and Evening Prayer

• No, "deceits" doesn't work; but I know what it's getting at about "devices".
• Get rid of all those fussy antiphons.
• The subjunctive "be" should be restored to the Gloria Patri, rather than leaving it as a sentence fragment. I'm glad that "world without end" is back.
• The Te Deum has loads of horrible paraphrase artefacts in it and should be redone from scratch.
• Similarly, the Benedictus is translated in such a way as to make the third verse unsingably short and to mash the sixth, seventh, and eighth verses into just two verses. This ruins the effect of singing it to a quadruple chant.
• Losing "into hell" from the Apostles' Creed is disappointing.
• Presenting two versions of the Lord's Prayer is a rut from which I wish we would escape. The practical solution would be to take the "modern" version from "Our Father" to "your will be done", then the 1928 revision from "on earth" to "deliver us from evil". The doxology should be omitted.
• "O Lord, save our nations; // And guide us in the way of justice and truth." doesn't have the character of the other responses. I'd suggest strengthening the allusion to Psalm 86 along the lines of "All the nations you made shall come and worship you, O Lord // Teach us your way, and we will walk in your truth."
• The rubric "The Officiant may invite the people to offer intercessions and thanksgivings" should give the option to move this to after "The Lord be with you. // And with your spirit. // Let us pray."

• The greeting seems fussy. Inviting a page flick to seasonal greetings is even worse. "Good morning and welcome to our Communion Service at St Dodo's. [Insert miscellaneous notices.] Please turn to page 12 for the greeting."
• Please no, not that paraphrase of the Gloria. That was a key element that needed a more traditional translation. And the default position should be at the end of the service, not at the beginning.
• The Nicene Creed, as per the rant. There should be the option to reduce its use (as per the Exhortation) as well, as well as to move it to another point in the service (before the Sermon, after the Offertory, or after the Fraction).
• The Intercessions are a bit of a mess. The Prayer for the Church Militant works well when read through at a reasonable pace, but split up with silences and responses becomes interminable. If the bidding format really is desirable, the biddings should be reduced to the single line "For ____, let us pray to the Lord. // Lord have mercy."
• Losing the repetition of "have mercy upon us" in the confession is a shame.
• I'm also not a fan of moving the Offertory from after the Sermon, as this has the effect of detaching the Comfortable Words from the Sursum Corda, although the rubrics allow putting it back.
• 1 Chronicles 29 shouldn't be the only option at the Offertory. Its sense isn't particularly appropriate anyway.
• "Up" should go back in "We lift them up to the Lord".
• "Just and right" isn't a good modern English idiom, exactly as "meet and right" has its problems. If they looked at how this is managed in Dutch, then perhaps they would have alighted on the more idiomatic "right and proper".
• The Sanctus is that paraphrased version. Changing it back to "Holy, Holy, Holy, / Lord God of Hosts: / Heaven and earth are full of your glory. / Glory be to you, O Lord Most High." would significantly improve the flow into the Prayer of Consecration.
• "All praise and glory is yours" mashes the other half of that connection. "All glory be to you" is a much better version.
• Oh no, it's the Prayer of Oblation attached to the Prayer of Consecration, including all of Cranmer's changes to it.
• Somewhat disappointed that "Christ our Passover" is the only option at the Fraction.
• The Humble Mumble before the Agnus Dei is not the greatest bit of positioning ever. It would be better in the Offertory. But at least it includes the lines "that our sinful bodies may be made clean by his body, / and our souls washed through his most precious blood."
• Yes! "Behold the Lamb of God!"
• Yes! The proper words of administration, even if they've bracketed half of them!
• Yes! "Let us bless the Lord. // Thanks be to God." And may the souls of the faithful departed, through the mercy of God, rest in peace.

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Originally posted by sonata3:
...although the fraction has been moved from its 1928 position, to after the Lord's Prayer).

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Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 

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Originally posted by pererin:
Rant-type portion of post

[QUOTE]
[*]"O Lord, save our nations; // And guide us in the way of justice and truth." doesn't have the character of the other responses. I'd suggest strengthening the allusion to Psalm 86 along the lines of "All the nations you made shall come and worship you, O Lord // Teach us your way, and we will walk in your truth."

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Originally posted by stonespring:


Thoughts?

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Originally posted by pererin:
Rant-type portion of post

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The original Greek text used "We Believe" because this Creed reflects the belief of the whole Church as a united body, as contrasted with the Apostles' Creed which is a personal profession of faith used at baptism.

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Argh! How wrong can this possibly get? The original (which indeed happened to be in Greek) was in the plural because it was part of a conciliar decree. The liturgical form in Greek has always been the singular. It's even generally referred to as το πιστεύω ("the I-believe").

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Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Mr. Rob -

*Please* try to discuss the topic at hand without making such snide asides about the people concerned. We aim to respect each other's traditions hereabouts and lines like 'It's {x}, what do you expect?' don't help this.

Your criticism of the academic credentials of ACNA also slides very close to this: I'm reasonably sure that the majority of historical liturgies were drawn up by people who were NOT 'liturgical scholars', and it is a moot point whether those that were are any the better for it.

Please note, your tendency to throw out such comments about ecclesial groups for whom you do not care has not gone unnoticed. Let this be the last of them.

dj_ordinaire, Eccles host

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Originally posted by sonata3:
I found the two eucharistic prayers interesting. In both, the epiclesis has been moved to before the Institution Narrative, a position it has never held in a traditional BCP of the Episcopal Church (and only in Prayer C, if my memory is correct, in 1979 BCP). The "long form" prayer has an explicit oblation, the "short form" does not. The "short form" has a memorial acclamation, the "long form" does not. Seems a bit odd to me; for those parishes in ACNA used to 1979 BCP, it would seem to significantly reduce the options available to those parishes.

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