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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: China Protestant churches?
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liberte
Apprentice
# 17538
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Posted
Is there anyone here who's familiar with the Protestant (TSPM/CCC) churches in (mainland) China, or who worship? What are they like...
- Doctrine - liberal? conservative? Arminian or Calvinist etc
- Worship - liturgical, contemporary low/high-church?
And in your opinion, what sort of Christian denomination in the United States will resemble them closely the most? Just want to get a more familiar picture.
Posts: 8 | Registered: Jan 2013
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liberte
Apprentice
# 17538
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Posted
Damn. Looks as though I posted in the wrong topic, mods, can you please move this thread to the correct place? My apologies.
[ 05. November 2013, 07:05: Message edited by: liberte ]
Posts: 8 | Registered: Jan 2013
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
I'm happy to move it over to Ecclesiantics.
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Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
My experience is thirteen years old and confined to Shandong. However...
theologically, I'm afraid I simply don't know. My Chinese was reasonable but not sufficient to follow what was being said very much.
liturgically, free-form with much singing and much long praying.
Despite the Anglicans joining in with the TSPM after Liberation (well, a decade after Liberation), I worshipped with the CPA week by week. I was able to pick out bits from sermons and could follow the lectionary as well as the structure of the Mass so I could actually worship rather than wonder what was going on.
Indeed, to my mind, it was very much like the Church of England - liturgical, catholic body unfortunately broken away from Rome. (One priest I spoke to rather poo-pooed this idea; the picture of then-pope John Paul II in his sitting room showed where his loyalties lay.)
I have various wonderful memories of worshipping with the CPA - not limited to the bishop coming and wearing liturgical gloves; 6000 people fighting over the palm crosses before the procession began; a large packed church at whatever hour one went to Mass.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
Posts: 8049 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
My experience of the Chinese protestant churches is entirely second-hand: I have never been to China! But I have a couple of friends whom I know through an ecumenical group who come from the Chinese Christian Council.
From what they said, it sounds like the churches are indeed institutionally united, but that it is still obvious where each individual church "came from". I.e. a parish with Anglican origins will retain something of an Anglican flavour, likewise with Methodists, Baptists, Presbyterians and whoever.
I get the impression that the CCC is united for entirely political reasons, rather than because of a genuine theological or liturgical convergence...
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
I have just come back from some time in the Chaoshan in the NE of Guangdong province. The worship in the Protestant Churches there most closely resembled what I have encountered in the URC in England and in the Church of Scotland.
The structure and progress of the service was very clear and pretty fixed, and in that sense you could say it was liturgical. OTOH no worship books apart from hymn books were used, and the actual words of the prayers varied from Sunday to Sunday.
Theologically I would say the Church tended to be small 'o' orthodox. I can't answer about the Arminian/Calvinist question. I'm not sure it was a big issue there.
In the area I was in the churches were predominantly Presbyterian Church of England/ American Baptist heritage. I don't think there were discernible differences between those of different origins.
I think it is probably not correct to see the CCC as entirely a political construct, or at least not everywhere in China. There was a very strong desire among missionaries in China not to import western denominationalism into China. This was reflected in the 1910 missionary conference in Edinburgh, and even more so in the Shanghai conference in 1922. The National Christian Council of China had a long existence running up to the Cultural Revolution, and the present CCC owes something to that body. Where I was, it would be very far from the truth to see the CCC as simply a state or political body, and not 'real' church.
One thing I learned form my time in China in an area with two language groups (not Cantonese or Mandarin) was that it is dangerous to generalise from any local experience about China as a whole. China is as big as the United States and nearly as big as Europe, and is culturally and linguistically diverse.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
TSPM? CPA? Explanations, please.....
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
TSPM= "The Self Patriotic Movement," which is the governmental oversight organization of the Protestant Churches in China. The "three selfs" being self-governance, self-support, and and self-propagation. The actual Church organization itself is the China Christian Council.
I imagine the CPA is actually the CPCA, the "Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association."
[ 05. November 2013, 15:36: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Thank you!
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
And here I thought "Three-Self" was some kind of Chinese transposition of the concept of the Trinity!
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Newp. The "three selfs" were actually promulgated by western missionaries before the revolution to prioritize the creation of a self governing and propagating mission to China. Like missions most everywhere, the vast majority of converts are won by indigenous missionaries.
It seems to be paying off. The official number of Protestants in China has grown by 3,000% percent since the start of the revolution, with 70% of churches having been constructed since the legalization of Christian worship in the early 80's. And that's just the official number—even the conservative estimates are much, much higher. Chinese churches are packed to bursting every Sunday. They cannot build churches fast enough in China to meet demand. This is likely one of the most remarkable and unprecedented Christianizations in history.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
Certainly the English documents i was given referred to the Catholic Patriotic Association - there may well be longer names too.
Thurible
[deleted duplicate post]
[ 05. November 2013, 21:32: Message edited by: seasick ]
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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An die Freude
Shipmate
# 14794
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Posted
My own experience is from one year studying Chinese culture while living in southwest China. To begin with, I'd like to point out one important thing that we were then constantly reminded of: China is the size of Europe and just about as diverse. Admittedly, the overall language and culture may be more similar, but given that local leaders and practices vary greatly, there will always be another province on the other side of the country where conditions are just about the opposite.
I did not visit the Chinese churches that much, but we were taught a bit about the Christian movements by both Western and Chinese experts and locals. I do remember one time when we visited the TSPM church however: they had a team of Korean missionaries working there for a six month project or so, and apparently they had brought their American charismatic evangelical style liturgy and worship (and from what I picked up, doctrine as well). It was as free-form charismatic as any church I've seen in my homecountry Sweden, and I grew up in the ultra-charismatic movement here. I am pretty sure they were usually rather more liturgical, but Chinese friends told us that apparently the TSPM and the house churches had grown increasingly similar in that particular place, and there was some cooperation, leading to more free-form liturgy in the TSPM churches.
I never got a chance to visit one of the house churches, but have friends who did. The impression I got from their picture of it seemed somewhat similar to the evangelical (Intervarsity) campus youth group I participated in in Canada last year - rather calm but free in form, centred on prayer and reading the bible. However, the people from house churches could be very spontaneous and charismatic in devotions at other times. I'm not sure where that places them on an American denominational scale, having way too little knowledge about church life there.
Doctrinally, what we were told was that whereas many intellectuals participate in both the 3 self and the house churches, most house churches lack and express want for theological training. From what I gathered, this meant rather literal biblical interpretation among the house churches, although they vary.
@ Zach82:
Mind you, many house churches never attempt to build churches, and are not the same as the legalized 3 self church. In some places there are deep divisions between them, and overall it's the house church movement that tends to be growing the most, from what I hear. As I mentioned, they are converging in some areas, but in others, divisions are as deep as between Catholics and Protestants (which are still considered two different religions by the Chinese authorities).
There is remarkable growth indeed, as you say, but a bit of nuance is necessary. Apart from differentiating between church movements, it's also important to remember that all religions grow massively in China today, Buddhism and Islam as well, and that as has been said by myself and others, different areas show different patterns and outcomes. Also, I don't think "unprecedented" comes in comparative or superlative. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Overall your picture is a good one, I just wanted to point out what seemed to be close to overgeneralizations. And thanks for explaining those abbreviations, I wondered as well!
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Posts: 851 | From: Proud Socialist Monarchy of Sweden | Registered: May 2009
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