Ship of Fools: US and UK Anglo Catholic Liturgical trends

Thread: US and UK Anglo Catholic Liturgical trends Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

To visit this thread, use this URL:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=70;t=026551

Posted by Clotilde (# 17600) on :

From looking at some websites I think I can detect differences between Anglo Catholicism in the US and Anglo Catholicism in the UK.

I'm thinking here principally liturgically.

Now I am aware that I may read too much into websites, and maybe I have been looking at 'flagship' Anglo Catholic church websites, which may not actually be representative of the larger Anglo Catholic world.

However, I stick my head up above the parapet and share what first impressions on this are:

1) US Anglo Catholicism seems to favour a traditional ethos more than UK. So six candles, traditional vestments, back to people seems a little more common than in the UK. UK seems to have more modern hymnody, or at least be prepared to have it.

2) US seems more keen on the choral tradition.

3) US seems a tad more formal than the UK in its Catholicism.

4) US more openly inclusive in terms of women and gays than UK

So I'm asking if anyone has direct experience they can share and discuss among us. I'm interested to know in which direction we think Anglo Catholic liturgy is going in both areas - UK and US.

Curious Anglo Catholic ephemera and liturgy on eBay.Click here, thanks.

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

Two friends of mine, one ordained and one not who have spent a year in the US made the opposite observations to you, apart from more liberal attitudes generally to women priests.

As far as choral tradition how do you come to that conclusion when there is no daily choral tradition at all in the US, unlike British Cathedrals. In hymnody, the US music lists in Anglo-Catholic churches show many more protestant hymns and traditional hymns are often aligned with non-traditional tunes.

Finally I wouldn't automatically equate eastward facing or the "big six" with an indicator of "more traditional" at all.

Posted by Clotilde (# 17600) on :

How interesting, liturgylover. It just shows how we can come to different conclusions. I'm fascinated by your remarks, and surprised too.

My comment about choral tradition was not about Cathedrals, but about Anglo Catholic churches.

In the Church of the Advent, Boston, for example I see there is a different choral setting of the Mass every Sunday, and similalrly in other Anglo Catholic churches in the USA. I've not come across this so much in England outside London.

I also see photographs of priests in maniples in the US Anglo Catholic churches. I can't recall seeing that in the UK for a long time.

But these are perhaps details. What I wonder is this - is Anglo Catholic liturgy in the US going in different direction to that in the UK?

Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:
I wouldn't automatically equate eastward facing or the "big six" with an indicator of "more traditional" at all.

Well, it's more traditional than not. I think the point is that AC churches in the CoE are more likely to follow Vatican II's lead in ceremonial matters (hence Clotilde's comment about the maniple).

Posted by Clotilde (# 17600) on :

Thank you, LQ that is succinctly put, and helpful.

As far as I know, and as I am showing my knowledge of US Anglo Catholicism is weak, US Angl Catholics have been less inclined to look Rome-wards than UK AC's.

So I guess the Anglo Papalist thread in the UK in the early part of the twentieth century had little parallels in the US. Similarly as LQ suggests UK Anglos looked to Vatican 2 a lot, in the US this was less so. I understand that the Roman rite is not used in Anglo catholic churches in the US, for example.

This has its effects on liturgy. Some UK Anglo Catholic churches are very post Vatican 2.

With different starting points, or positions at present, one could expect divergence as the years go on in liturgical practice, while retaining an Anglo Catholic ethos.

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

In terms of the future there seem to be fewer parishes in the UK using the Roman Rite. Several London parishes, for example, have responded to Bishop Richard's letter and have now moved to Common Worship.

Which are the very Vatican II parishes you are thinking of? There are certainly some where you might not realise what denomination you are in, but most others to varying degrees have a distinctly Anglican feel in the execution of their liturgy. I have found that no two parishes are the same.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

It seems to me that in the US, most self-identified Anglo-Catholic parishes are following the same Ritualist practices that were first introduced in the 1910s and '20s, with some modifications for changes in rite (BCP 1979 etc.), whereas UK Anglo-Catholics have hewed more closely to the RC reforms instituted since the second Vatican Council.

That's certainly a generalization, and I'm sure there are all kinds of exceptions.

Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
That's certainly a generalization, and I'm sure there are all kinds of exceptions.

Building on that, American Anglo-Catholicism seems to have different flavors depending on one's region. In the Midwest, I would describe it as rather "Novus Ordo." It is almost as if the Anglo-Catholics here were so concerned about what the Catholics were doing, that they felt they had no choice but to modernize the liturgy and ceremony when the Catholics did so in the 1970s. That said, they did tend to stick with the BCP79 as preferred over the Catholic Sacramentary. The BCP79 texts were a bit more churchy-sounding, with longer clauses.

Posted by S. Bacchus (# 17778) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Clotilde:

In the Church of the Advent, Boston, for example I see there is a different choral setting of the Mass every Sunday, and similalrly in other Anglo Catholic churches in the USA. I've not come across this so much in England outside London.

Although my experience with North American Anglo-Cahtolicism isn't very broad (to put it mildly), it seems to me that you're comparing the Church of the Advent, an internationally famous shrine, to the norm of English Anglo-Catholic churches. Anglo-Catholic parishes in London that, like the Advent, have (historically, if not presently) large congregations and endowments will almost always have choral mass settings. Outside of urban shrines in London (and, to a lesser extent, Oxford and Brighton and, to an even less extent, other English cities) most parishes will have congregational mass settings, with a volunteer choir or no choir at all. I strongly suspect that a similar pattern holds true in North America. It's not a pond difference, it's the difference between large and well-resourced urban churches and everywhere else.

With regards to the choral tradition more broadly, as others have pointed out it is more prevalent in the UK than in the US. Not that there aren't excellent church choirs, and even boy choirs, in the US, but it doesn't seem to be like England, where cathedrals, college chapels, and large parishes keep choral evensong alive throughout the country.

I think the difference between 'traditional' ceremonial (ad orientem celebration with or without maniples) and, indeed, 'traditional' language varies more within the two countries than between them. All of the major London shrines celebrate facing east and use a rite that combines Cranmerian language with the 'Western Shape'.

It is probably fair to say that English Anglo-Catholicism has been more influenced by contemporary Roman Catholicism than its North American counterpart, in a whole variety of ways. Big Anglo-Catholic events, for instance, will often include both hymns from the NEH (an absolute bastion of restrained English good taste), contemporary Roman Catholic songs, and popular pre-Vatican II RC vernacular hymns. They will also, for reasons that are frankly mysterious to me, include Moody and Sankey and other Evangelical camp revival hymns.

The only observation from the OP that strikes me as very true is number 4. Staying away from the deceased equines themselves and sticking to worship practices, it is certainly much more common to see female priests in American Anglo-Catholic churches than in their English counterparts. Indeed, of famous English A-C churches, I think only St Mary Mags in Oxford, St Matthew's Westminster, and St Mary the Virgin, Primrose Hill have ever had a woman celebrate mass to my knowledge (although the chapels of both St Stephen's House and Mirfield have also, I believe). It is also much less common to see same-sex weddings in the Church of England, although this would seem to be much less an issue of the preferences of individual Anglo-Catholic priests and parishes, than it is a reflection of the Church of England's current regulations on the subject. When such blessings do occur, they tend to be kept relatively quiet. It would be a rare CofE parish indeed that advertized itself as open to blessing same-sex unions. However, I suspect that, if they were allowed to do so, a very large proportion of English Anglo-Catholic churches would bless same-sex unions.

Finally, to conclude what has been a somewhat incoherent post, I would say that — judging by websites alone — S. Clement's, Philadelphia has more of an 'English' feel than any other US Anglican I've seen. The contributory factors would seem to be having a Scottish rector, using the NEH, keeping Remembrance Sunday, etc. I think I could be quite happy there.

Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
Finally, to conclude what has been a somewhat incoherent post, I would say that — judging by websites alone — S. Clement's, Philadelphia has more of an 'English' feel than any other US Anglican I've seen. The contributory factors would seem to be having a Scottish rector, using the NEH, keeping Remembrance Sunday, etc. I think I could be quite happy there.

Ironically, that is one of the few ECUSA parishes of which I can think was generally considered Anglo-Papalist in style, at least historically, as they held on to Roman forms and copious amounts of Latin while using the Roman rite forms, c. 1954. A little less so now, I believe.

It is true that the North American version of AC was historically less Anglo-Papalist than in the UK, but that is partly a reflection of the society. We do not have the same history here: no Bloody Mary, no Thomas More, executions on both sides, etc., so the historical baggage is lacking, and thus the strong feelings about the papacy on both sides was less jarring. The so-called Biretta Belt of the Midwest, in TEC was much closer to AP. They were much more into smells and bells from the late 1800s on, and they were quicker to adopt post-V2 reforms, as well.

Another factor since the 1970s is that the Continuing Church movement here siphoned off many of the extreme ACs, and especially the few APs who were around. A group called the Anglican Catholic Church, as well as some of the other groups, included such among their ranks. These folks, including a number of their bishops, were among those who petitioned Pope Benedict for a provision that resulted in the Anglican Ordinariate. So, in North America, more of the Continuing Anglicans and fewer TEC groups were the targets of Anglicanorum Coetibus, while in the UK, smaller numbers of Continuing Anglicans and larger numbers of APs in the C of E meant the reverse.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
Big Anglo-Catholic events... will also, for reasons that are frankly mysterious to me, include Moody and Sankey and other Evangelical camp revival hymns.

I expect somebody said 'Let's have some camp hymns, Father', and the misunderstanding developed from there.

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

Are we in danger of conflating UK with England, here? I realise there aren't a lot of Piskies in Scotland but my (limited) experience has been that they look a lot more like descriptions of the situation in the US, including on dead horses. The altar at All Saints, Inveraray features 6 candles, for example. What intrigues me is whether Anglo-Catholicism in the SEC reflects the Scottish pre-reformation Catholic tradition or is largely derived from English 19th century Anglo-Catholicism.

Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Are we in danger of conflating UK with England, here?

That's a fair point, or at least England-and-Wales. The historical reasons for the Scottish-American link are understandable, of course.

It's true that, outside of places like Saint Thomas', Fifth Avenue, there is not much of a daily choral tradition in the U.S. (and none to speak of in Canada). But then, I'm not sure that where it does exist in England, it's an especially Anglo-Catholic phenomenon. It seems to be associated (unsurprisingly) with cathedrals and colleges, who presumably have a broader constituency to appeal to.

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

Just a generality to throw out there: a robed choir is not necessarily an indication of a strong choral tradition in American churches. Practically every church of every denomination has a robed choir here.

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Just a generality to throw out there: a robed choir is not necessarily an indication of a strong choral tradition in American churches. Practically every church of every denomination has a robed choir here.

It's not much of an indicator in England. There's a big difference between the average amateur parish choir and the trained choirs of the prominent churches like Lancaster Priory.

Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :

Hmm. MW reports had given me the impression that a robed choir was worth remarking upon in English churches.

Posted by Anglo Catholic Relict (# 17213) on :

quote:
Originally posted by S. Bacchus:
It would be a rare CofE parish indeed that advertized itself as open to blessing same-sex unions. However, I suspect that, if they were allowed to do so, a very large proportion of English Anglo-Catholic churches would bless same-sex unions.

I am not sure this is right; I thought there was no problem with blessing same sex unions. The union itself cannot be done, but the blessing certainly can.

Vicars can (and do) bless anything they like. Afaik, it is up to the Vicar and the PCC to decide what kind of services they will conduct, and blessings of this kind are not constrained by law.

Posted by Anglo Catholic Relict (# 17213) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Hmm. MW reports had given me the impression that a robed choir was worth remarking upon in English churches.

My parish church has a robed choir. I don't think it is all that unusual.

Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Are we in danger of conflating UK with England, here?

Thanks, that is a valid point. Even the Knott English Missal has one proper MPAL section for England and Wales, and another for Scotland. Sorry for any confusion on that point.

[ 16. November 2013, 19:51: Message edited by: Ceremoniar ]

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

I attended a Mass celebrated in the SSPX church here in Edinburgh.Today's feast,at least in Scotland,is that of St Margaret of Scotland and the SSPX church is dedicated to her.There was a sign in the church which indicated that it was St Margaret's day.
I was surprised that the celebrant,a New Zealander, celebrated Mass in honour of St Gertrude instead.Not everyone pays attention to
the Scottish calendar.

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Hmm. MW reports had given me the impression that a robed choir was worth remarking upon in English churches.

Well, put it this way: every parish church where I've worshipped regularly, and almost all that I've visited, in England have had a robed choir of one sort or another. Now obviously my perspective skews MOTR to Anglo-Catholic, but outside of the seriously happy-clappy it is unusual to not find at least 2-3 folk in blue robes willing to murmur vaguely tunefully during communion.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Just because folks are robed up doesn't mean they can sing better than the rest of us, so frankly why bother if they can't?

At the higher or highest end of the candle I have certainly come across unrobed choirs in a loft or area at the back of church - St Alban's Holborn, St Mary Mag's Oxford in the past certainly, St Magnus Martyr London Bridge, St Peter's Eaton Square (certainly at the back, possibly robed, but invisible to the congregation) and Annunciation Marble Arch (on the top of the rood loft facing the congregation - they do have blue student robes over their mufti, but not that you'd notice).

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:

quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Hmm. MW reports had given me the impression that a robed choir was worth remarking upon in English churches.
Well, put it this way: every parish church where I've worshipped regularly, and almost all that I've visited, in England have had a robed choir of one sort or another. Now obviously my perspective skews MOTR to Anglo-Catholic, but outside of the seriously happy-clappy it is unusual to not find at least 2-3 folk in blue robes willing to murmur vaguely tunefully during communion.

Indeed. In our local deanery of 11 churches (which admitedly is skewed towards the higher end of the candle)9 have robed choirs, and 6 of the 9 are good and will sing at least part of a choral setting and/or anthem. The other 2 probably fall into providing a boost to the congregation category - I don't see anything wrong in the latter, necessarily. There are few things more painful than listening to a choir perform that is out of its depth.

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Just because folks are robed up doesn't mean they can sing better than the rest of us, so frankly why bother if they can't?

At the higher or highest end of the candle I have certainly come across unrobed choirs in a loft or area at the back of church - St Alban's Holborn, St Mary Mag's Oxford in the past certainly, St Magnus Martyr London Bridge, St Peter's Eaton Square (certainly at the back, possibly robed, but invisible to the congregation) and Annunciation Marble Arch (on the top of the rood loft facing the congregation - they do have blue student robes over their mufti, but not that you'd notice).

I agree with you general point, and would add that I have experienced unrobed voluntary choirs doing a very good job indeed.

Two more excellent choirs that sing from the back loft are St Giles Cripplesgate and St James Garlickhythe. St James Paddington have an excellent robed choir that move around the church. St Peter's Eton Square are robed and I noticed when I was there recently that many seem to sit in the side seats where one can take in the beauty and light of the whole church.

Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :

Yes, at St Mary Mag in Toronto the schola is vested in the chancel while the gallery choir provides plainclothes polyphony.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:

Another factor since the 1970s is that the Continuing Church movement here siphoned off many of the extreme ACs, and especially the few APs who were around. A group called the Anglican Catholic Church, as well as some of the other groups, included such among their ranks. These folks, including a number of their bishops, were among those who petitioned Pope Benedict for a provision that resulted in the Anglican Ordinariate. So, in North America, more of the Continuing Anglicans and fewer TEC groups were the targets of Anglicanorum Coetibus, while in the UK, smaller numbers of Continuing Anglicans and larger numbers of APs in the C of E meant the reverse.

The first sentence is certainly true. I have to pick nits, though, over the issue of the the ACC petitioning Rome for the Ordinariate; that was primarily the Anglican Church in America (ACA) through its umbrella organization, the Traditional Anglican Communion. The ACA was formed in an attempt to merge the ACC and the American Episcopal Church; in the event, most of the ACC balked at the merger.

The ACC certainly contains a number of old-style Anglo-Catholics in its ranks, but it's also home to a sizeable minority of Prayer Book Catholics, some of whom proudly maintain a Reformed identity. And of course, the other two groups formed from the Chambers consecrations (the Anglican Province of Christ the King and the United Episcopal Church in North America) contain their share of spikes as well...

Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :

Some of the confusion may be due to the fact that in many provinces outside the US, TAC "does business" as the Anglican Catholic Church of X. As a Canadian it was always a source of some confusion to me that the "Anglican Catholic Church" was not simply the US referent of the ACC of C. I gather it has something to do with Deerfield Beach. In any case, up here it is certainly true to say the impetus for the ordinariate (or to date, the deanery within the ordinariate) came from the Anglican Catholic Church.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

True, LQ--which is one of the reasons the ACC in the US often refers to itself as "Anglican Catholic Church (Original Province)".

There's still quite a bit of bad blood over Deerfield Beach, but it appears to be calming down a bit. The primate of the ACA was present at ACC's Provincial Synod last month, and also at an episcopal consecration held at its tail end.

Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :

Yes, in an attempt to not get too bigged down in details, I oversimplified my delineations of the various components of the Continuing Anglican movement. I am aware of the ACA and Deerfield Beach, having lived in Miami in the early 1990s, when all of that took place--though I was already a RC by that point. I did have some experience with the ACC some years prior to that, so I think that I mentioned the ACC in my post because it was my perception that they seemed to have the largest amount of APs in their ranks, as opposed to the AEC or UECNA at the time. I cannot speak as well about the composition of the post-Deerfield group, other than what I read in The Christian Challenge at the time.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

S. Bacchus - for people who have moved up the candle within the CoE, evangelical hymns will be more familiar than anything from the NEH, since they are sung even at very MOTR churches. And honestly, the popular evangelical hymn writers were just bloody good hymn writers. My church uses the NEH and I am delighted when I get to belt out a Wesley hymn rather than drone an obscure Elizabethan one. YMMV of course.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Following on from Jade.

I was profoundly moved at Walsingham singing "O for a thousand tongues" to the traditional Methodist tune rather than the tastefullly stodgy Anglican one. Also "All hail the power of Jesus'" to the wonderful Methodist one with fiddly chorus.

It is at the MOTR with homopathic incense place I usually attend that I am bored out of my mind by standard hymns such as I sang in school assembly. (Victorian rather than Elizabethan, Jade. I don't think there are more than five Elizabethan hymns in NEH.)

Posted by stonespring (# 15530) on :

I don't know much about which hymn tunes are the Methodist ones, but in terms of Hymns where the words were composed by Charles Wesley, are those still considered Evangelical? As a US Roman Catholic who sings plenty of Wesley hymns at church every Sunday, I would think of many Wesley hymns as Ecumenical at this point. I'm not sure if this is the case in the Episcopal Church here.

Posted by pererin (# 16956) on :

quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
but in terms of Hymns where the words were composed by Charles Wesley, are those still considered Evangelical?

I'd love to try "Victim Divine, thy grace we claim" or "Hosanna in the highest to our exalted Saviour" or "O Thou before the world began" out on a modern Evangelical crowd... [Big Grin]

But then again, Charles Wesley was trying to reform the Church of England from within.

Posted by stonespring (# 15530) on :

Would a MOTR parish in The Episcopal Church be considered Anglo-Catholic (or at least higher up the candle in ceremony and Catholicisms) in the UK? Or does it depend on the region? Is BCP '79 a more Anglo-Catholic Prayer Book in terms of its comparatively limited options than Common Worship?

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
Would a MOTR parish in The Episcopal Church be considered Anglo-Catholic (or at least higher up the candle in ceremony and Catholicisms) in the UK? Or does it depend on the region? Is BCP '79 a more Anglo-Catholic Prayer Book in terms of its comparatively limited options than Common Worship?

I think the shibboleths are different.

over here the clearest altitude markers are calling priests "father" and calling Holy Communion "mass". I get the impression that both of those are quite usual amongst US Anglicans.

Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
Is BCP '79 a more Anglo-Catholic Prayer Book in terms of its comparatively limited options than Common Worship?

Oh, this is going to be good... [Yipee]

Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :

quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
Would a MOTR parish in The Episcopal Church be considered Anglo-Catholic (or at least higher up the candle in ceremony and Catholicisms) in the UK?

Based on my objective viewpoint, gained from countless hours aboard ship, I would say yes. I'm afraid it almost seems like comparing apples to oranges.

quote:
Is BCP '79 a more Anglo-Catholic Prayer Book in terms of its comparatively limited options than Common Worship?

Such a simple question. No simple answers.

The BCP79 is a uniting force in TEC, whether they care to admit this or not. Having been around for longer than the now-defunct ASB, they have had a lot of time to adjust to its nuances, and to coalesce around certain ritual and ceremonial practices. Most of these are rather Anglo-Catholic, in British terms. What TEC doesn't have are the con-evo options offered by the C of E.

Posted by stonespring (# 15530) on :

My thoughts are that the BCP '79 was able to be such a source of unity because TEC really didn't have many con evos by 1979. Since it doesn't have con evo options, and since even Rite I has some Catholic tweakings, it seems like a more Anglo Catholic book. Of course, Anglo Catholic liturgies that seem much more Roman than the MOTR TEC liturgy are possible with CW.

Do the different histories of the C of E and TEC with respect to the relative lack of con evos in the recent TEC also explain any difference between Anglo Catholic practices stateside and in England?

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

ISTM that ELCA Lutheranism is nearer to MOTR Anglicanism in England than TEC is.

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

May I point out that there are four Anglican denominations in the UK. The CofE, The Episcopal Church of Scotland, Church in Wales and the Church of Ireland (Anglican)*. They have different flavours. The Episcopal Church of Scotland tends to have a strong high church flavour and afaik the Church of Ireland (Anglican) tends to be more strongly Presbyterian**.

Jengie

*CofI title is also claimed by the Roman Catholic Church hence the term in brackets.

** I played with Protestantism, but it is a specific type particular characterised best by Presbyterianism. Maybe this is more accurately Institutional/Ecclesiastical Protestantism. In English terms it is Puritanism as opposed to Seperatism. It owes some of its character to the absorption of Hugeneot refugees as much as Ulster Presbyterians.

Posted by Liturgylover (# 15711) on :

Others have commented on differences in A/C within the US - I would say, to a lesser extent, there are differences in the expression of MOTR liturgy even within England. When I visited a friend in the Home Counties he took me to the 'High Church' which seemed distinctly central to me; similarly someone from the West who has recently moved near me has happily settled into what they describe as MOTR, but which we locals describe as 'snake belly low'.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Liturgylover:
Others have commented on differences in A/C within the US - I would say, to a lesser extent, there are differences in the expression of MOTR liturgy even within England. When I visited a friend in the Home Counties he took me to the 'High Church' which seemed distinctly central to me; similarly someone from the West who has recently moved near me has happily settled into what they describe as MOTR, but which we locals describe as 'snake belly low'.

There are definite regional differences. There are also differences in how common A-C churches are within England. My town is mostly A-C, whereas when I lived in East Sussex it was hard enough finding a MOTR church, let alone A-C (excluding Brighton of course, which does its own thing anyway).

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Are we in danger of conflating UK with England, here? I realise there aren't a lot of Piskies in Scotland but my (limited) experience has been that they look a lot more like descriptions of the situation in the US, including on dead horses. The altar at All Saints, Inveraray features 6 candles, for example. What intrigues me is whether Anglo-Catholicism in the SEC reflects the Scottish pre-reformation Catholic tradition or is largely derived from English 19th century Anglo-Catholicism.

I understand that it's largely a nineteenth century Anglo-Catholic derivation.
One obvious point of deviation between the CofE and the Episcopal Church I would guess is Percy Dearmer? The English Hymnal does get used in Scottish Episcopal Churches despite the name - but I don't think I've seen an English Altar (i.e. two candles with side screens).

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Following on from Jade.

I was profoundly moved at Walsingham singing "O for a thousand tongues" to the traditional Methodist tune rather than the tastefullly stodgy Anglican one. Also "All hail the power of Jesus'" to the wonderful Methodist one with fiddly chorus.

It is at the MOTR with homopathic incense place I usually attend that I am bored out of my mind by standard hymns such as I sang in school assembly. (Victorian rather than Elizabethan, Jade. I don't think there are more than five Elizabethan hymns in NEH.)

Ahh but there are certainly plenty of faux Elizabethan hymns! There is (at least) one Edmund Spenser, although I don't know if it was written as a hymn.

I think at least the Wesleys and revivalist hymnwriters were writing for congregational singing - there are many fine hymns in NEH and other similar hymnbooks but singing as part of a choir is so different to being in the congregation. On the other hand, of course, worship songs are a nightmare to sing for anyone used to singing in parts (or anyone who sings below soprano or tenor). *is an alto*

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Or indeed for anyone who actually likes music.

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

Con-evos are very thin on the ground in TEC. There are also occasional pockets and isolated examples of old fashioned low churchmanship around. These can make do with the 1979 BCP, and I don't think they have any real impact on what the MOTR majority and the spectrum of Anglo-Catholics do. The '79 had a major impact in terms of mandating the Eucharist as the principal service on Sundays and major holy days. This pretty much put paid to choral mattins in all but a few places that have maintained an alternating schedule of Eucharist and Mattins, together with an unvarying early Eucharist every Sunday. That's pretty anomolus now, IME. Thus, even in historically low church dioceses, the Eucharist is the general rule for public worship, and the celebrant will be vested in chasuble, or at the very least in alb and stole. The historically very low Diocese of Virginia probably remains the most deviant to the general programme of TEC MOTR style, but even there the hardcore con-evos left TEC, attempted to take their property with them, but lost their cases at law -- anyway, they are out of the diocese and out of TEC.

I would say MOTR in America tends to range over three iterations, one of which segues into moderate Anglo-Catholicism.

At the lower end, you have folksy, family-friendly places with bad vestments, no real sense of liturgical propriety or ceremonial decorum, where a good deal of the liturgy is "said" rather than sung/chanted, and the sung bits will typically be folksy or modern settings, and modern language will be used for the liturgy in general.

Then, there are the traditional MOTR places that are characterised by restrained but dignified ceremonial, nicer vestments, singing of a greater part of the liturgy (but perhaps not the sursum corda and preface to the EP), and a pretty conservative adherence to the 1979 BCP, whether Rite I (Tudor English) or Rite II (contemporary idiom).

Finally, you have what I would call the modern catholic style, which is likely to resemble a Novus Ordo liturgy (though using the BCP), with singing of most of the parts of the liturgy that would normally ever be sung (though possibly not the Gospel), elevation of the Sacrament at the consecration and concluding doxology, liberal use of the sign of the cross and other gestures/postures, no regular use of incense, bells sometimes found but not always, vestments taken seriously as de rigeur, occasionally maybe an assisting deacon but no solemn celebrations or concelebration.

After that, you get into the advanced Anglo-Catholic spectrum, whether traditional or Vatican II style.

All this slightly leaves out a species of high church places that are not quite Anglo-Catholic but are above MOTR. St Thomas 5th Avenue would be the greatest example of such places, and one where the ceremonial comes very close to A-C, including three sacred ministers at the principal Eucharist, incense at the offertory only, strong adherence to the BCP with very little in the way of A-C add-ons. There are many parish churches in the US that fall into this category, though obviously without the level of material and artistic resources commanded by St Thomas 5th Ave.

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:

quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Are we in danger of conflating UK with England, here? I realise there aren't a lot of Piskies in Scotland but my (limited) experience has been that they look a lot more like descriptions of the situation in the US, including on dead horses. The altar at All Saints, Inveraray features 6 candles, for example. What intrigues me is whether Anglo-Catholicism in the SEC reflects the Scottish pre-reformation Catholic tradition or is largely derived from English 19th century Anglo-Catholicism.
I understand that it's largely a nineteenth century Anglo-Catholic derivation.
One obvious point of deviation between the CofE and the Episcopal Church I would guess is Percy Dearmer? The English Hymnal does get used in Scottish Episcopal Churches despite the name - but I don't think I've seen an English Altar (i.e. two candles with side screens).

IIRC the communion rite and Episcopal succession in the US comes from Scotland and not from England! Just checked it out and Samuel Seabury seems to be the key player. Never say to a Scottish Episcopalian that they are from English Migrants, those are the Methodists!

Jengie

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

Spot on, Jengie Jon, and the Scottish Episcopalians insisted on the US Episcopalians using their communion service as a condition of consecrating Samuel Seabury. It's a point worth emphasising: they insisted, perhaps with an eye to lex orandi, that if they were to ordain a Bishop he had to follow their rite. Which, I was always taught, explains the order of the liturgy in the US Book of Common Prayer.

Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :

I think that LSK has described things pretty accurately. But, of course, there is theology to consider, as well. While it is true that the 1979 BCP provided some Catholic forms that were not previously contained within the 1928 BCP, one notes that some of the theology that goes with it could assuredly not be called Catholic. The preface notes to some of the ceremonies make it clear that what is intended is not necessarily what traditional Catholic theology, AC included, has always understood.

Other theological elements that impact the liturgy but also extend beyond it include Mariology, the nature of the Church, ecclesiastical authority, the role of sacraments within the life of the Church, et al. Some TEC parishes that seem to be moderately AC from the looks of their liturgy turn out to have less-than-AC views on a number of these items. So how the liturgy looks, sounds and smells may or may not be in itself a reliable indicator.

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

All Saints,Inveraray was built in the 19th century by a Duke of Argyll for his second wife who was English and possibly because of this ,Anglican. (His first wife had died,by the way).
A later Duke,Neil,was an ardent Anglo-Catholic and furnished the church for Anglo Catholic rites.He was unmarried and his successors since then havean anyway shown no particular interest in religion.By tradition they are Presbyterian anyway.
One Sunday this summer I went to the Presby

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

Sorry,got cut off.One Sunday this summer I went to the Presbyterian church in Inveraray.There were 25 people,including one child.Then I went to All Saints church for RC Mass where there were 35 people with about 5 children. RC Mass is held every Sunday in All Saints ,albeit not using the High altar and there is an Episcopal communion service once a month.I've never been in Inveraray on that day,however.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

The element that has not been mentioned is class. In England, the town parish church would remain establishment. When new church was built in the grubby part of town or the outskirts, young catholic priests were keen as mustard to help out. It is generally the case that the historically more catholic churches in the provinces will be in the more marginal areas.

Presumably this didn't apply typically in the USA.

The grand shrines with bussed in congregations and professional standard choirs are fine, but for me the catholic heartlands in the C of E were in the backstreets and it is a great pity that that tradition has faded.

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :

Agreed- although still gamely going on in places- see Bishop's Finger, passim!

Posted by Clotilde (# 17600) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
The element that has not been mentioned is class. In England, the town parish church would remain establishment. When new church was built in the grubby part of town or the outskirts, young catholic priests were keen as mustard to help out. It is generally the case that the historically more catholic churches in the provinces will be in the more marginal areas.

Presumably this didn't apply typically in the USA.

The grand shrines with bussed in congregations and professional standard choirs are fine, but for me the catholic heartlands in the C of E were in the backstreets and it is a great pity that that tradition has faded.

Interesting point Venbede. I think the catholic heartlands to which you refer were also usually firmly based in pastoral care - unlike some of the London shrines, say, in latter days which were more liturgical shrines.

Why has that tradition faded? I guess thats a key question. If what you say is true, and I suspect it has a lot of truth in it - then a trend could be for Anglo Catholicism to become more rarified, and less earthed in the parishes in which it is set.

UBB.classic^TM 6.5.0