|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Is Roman versus Sarum use Anglo-catholicism outdated?
|
Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
|
Posted
Here in Canada, with the exception of Toronto, there is usually only one identifiable Anglo-catholic parish in each diocese. I was discussing the problem that entails in that usually our AC parishes have some who prefer Roman-use liturgy (Ritual Notes, Marian and Eucharistic devotions) versus some (noticeably declining in numbers) who prefer English, Alcuin-use with surpliced clergy/choirs and high-and-dry liturgy.
This distinction was historically most pronounced in the second-wave ritualist movement, the debate between Percy Dearmer and others in England.
Is this still a meaningful distinction in contemporary Anglo-catholicism?
--------------------
It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
|
Posted
I am no expert, but it seems to me that the distinction between the two types of A-Cism is only clear in very "old-school" A-C parishes.
For example, servers in albs (not cassock and surplice) are often seen in more modern Anglo-Catholic parishes. This style of vestment is neither from the traditional "Sarum" or "Roman" forms of Anglo-Catholicism.
Also, the rituals of many parishes often combine elements of both Sarum and Rome: English surplices with 6 candles on the altar, for example.
Those A-C parishes that changed their ceremonies to be more similar to the RCC's rites revised by Vatican II (but that use authorized Anglican Liturgical texts) are also hard to categorize using the old dichotomy.
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
|
Posted
Yes and no. In England the distinction is most likely to live on as the distinction between those parishes which have passed Resolutions and may be affiliated with Forward in Faith vs. the 'Affirming Catholics'. The former are probably more likely to use fiddleback chasubles and use at least some parts of the Roman Rite, but otherwise I don't think one could consistently distinguish between the liturgies.
--------------------
Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
S. Bacchus
Shipmate
# 17778
|
Posted
As the ever learned dj_ordinaire pointed out, it's almost but not entirely irrelevant in the modern CofE. Some highish (but usually not full-blown Anglo-Catholic) parishes will have only 'Sarum' vestments. A much smaller number, all run by slightly eccentric priests for whom the matter is a personal hobbyhorse, will only wear Latin or Spanish vestments (as mentioned prominently in this charmingly eccentric parish profile). Almost everywhere else, including every major Anglo-Catholic 'shrine' I've seen will use a mixture.
Almost nobody still follows some of the more, um unusual, aspects of Dr Dearmer's usage. Yellow for Confessors is, I imagine, rarer than the proverbial galline dentition. Lenten array is somewhat more common. On the other hand, almost everybody uses the updated (or, if you prefer, mutilated) version of Dr Dearmer's hymn book (no, not THAT one, the one where the hymns are actually Christian).
The difference between 'modern' and 'traditional' ceremonial is a much bigger divide these days. The clearest sign of that is VP vs AO celebration, but there are of course others.
--------------------
'It's not that simple. I won't have it to be that simple'.
Posts: 260 | Registered: Jul 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
aig
Shipmate
# 429
|
Posted
St Mary's does have Resolutions A, B and C in place; which enables us to be a church where poeple of all viewpoints and integrities can worship with confidence and at the same time feel very much at home.
Really!?!
This doesn't fit my view of 'charmingly eccentric' - delusional, perhaps.
Posts: 464 | From: the middle bit at the bottom slightly to the right | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
|
Posted
The specific issue that concerned me and my compatriots was over Marian devotion. Is Marian devotion considered "Roman" as opposed to true Sarum-rite?
--------------------
It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
The specific issue that concerned me and my compatriots was over Marian devotion. Is Marian devotion considered "Roman" as opposed to true Sarum-rite?
Again, depends what you mean... Despite being quite at home with various spiky practices, I don't think Walsingham, for example, is particularly wedded to traditional, Ritual Notes Anglo-papalism.
But yes, I think parishes which traditionally followed that sort of liturgy would be much more likely to make a big deal out of Marian devotion, pray the Rosary, talk about the Assumption rather than 'St. Mary's Day', and so forth.
Oh and St. B - yellow for confessors lives on at St. Mary's Primrose Hill when the Feast of St. Mary Magdalene falls on a Sunday. I am not aware that the practice survives in the wild other than this however!
--------------------
Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
|
Posted
I wonder if AB is conflating (understandably in our region - see below) "Sarum" and Prayer Book Catholicism. While Dearmer and his enthusiasts have traditionally championed the prayer book as the bulwark of English Catholicism, filtered through Sarum and Cranmer, "Sarum Use" itself was scarely less florid in Marian devotion. Indeed, Salisbury Cathedral is dedicated to the BVM and England was renowned as "Our Lady's Dowry."
And after all, it is the more "Roman" school of Anglo-Catholics who are giving Our Lady short shrift and beginning the O Antiphons a day late today, not the "English Users"!
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
For example, servers in albs (not cassock and surplice) are often seen in more modern Anglo-Catholic parishes. This style of vestment is neither from the traditional "Sarum" or "Roman" forms of Anglo-Catholicism.
Eh? Servers in apparelled amices and albs are very prominent in some Olde Englyshe-style Anglo-Catholic shacks that would hardly see themselves as modern. I think anglican_brat and I can probably both think of one in his area off the bat.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sarum Sleuth
Shipmate
# 162
|
Posted
In England the parishes that follow more or less Sarum ways do tend to the more liberal type of Anglo Catholicism in my experience although there are, of course, exceptions. The Mariolatary tends to be less pronounced in such parishes as well.
Of course most English cathedrals still tend to follow a recognisably Anglican way of doing things and I think at the last count over 50% currently use Lenten array, with most featuring servers in albs of some sort and clergy in long surplices. This doesn't seem to alter the perception in the parishes that their cathedral is "high church"!
SS
--------------------
The Parson's Handbook contains much excellent advice, which, if it were more generally followed, would bring some order and reasonableness into the amazing vagaries of Anglican Ritualism. Adrian Fortescue
Posts: 848 | From: England, 1549 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sarum Sleuth:
... Of course most English cathedrals still tend to follow a recognisably Anglican way of doing things ...
I would have hoped and assumed that all of them do.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
For example, servers in albs (not cassock and surplice) are often seen in more modern Anglo-Catholic parishes. This style of vestment is neither from the traditional "Sarum" or "Roman" forms of Anglo-Catholicism.
Eh? Servers in apparelled amices and albs are very prominent in some Olde Englyshe-style Anglo-Catholic shacks that would hardly see themselves as modern. I think anglican_brat and I can probably both think of one in his area off the bat.
I thought that under the Tridentine Rite no one in even the Roman Catholic Church would be seen in an alb unless a chasuble was over it. Maybe if someone was in a cope they would have alb and amice. But for everything else including altar servers, wasn't it a surplice? I could be totally wrong. At least that is all I see in old pictures.
As for the late 19th-century, early-20th century reconstruction of Sarum, did that involve albs and amices for servers? I would have thought it would have been English surplices. But I am open to correction here as well.
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
|
Posted
The Alcuin Club was certainly all for apparrelled albs for the ministers of the sanctuary and their descendants still are today. (Funnily enough, I was at that the service described in the latter link and recall speaking with the author).
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
|
Posted
IME in TEC in the USA (enough abbrev?), crucifers sometimes wore apparalled albs on feast days, but otherwise it was all cassock and surplice. In more recent years, some locations, especially in the Midwest, made greater use of albs, though not apparalled and often not white, either.
Posts: 1240 | From: U.S. | Registered: Apr 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
|
Posted
LQ is correct in ascertaining that I'm speaking more of Prayerbook Catholicism than genuine Sarum Use Churchmanship.
I'm wondering if there is a genuine appeal any more for Prayerbook Catholicism rather than "Romanizing" Anglo-catholicism?
--------------------
It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
|
Posted
Depends on what you mean
My parish is probably the most Anglo-Catholic parish in the diocese. Here is what we do. On a typical Sunday, we have a thurifer, crucifer, and two torches all vested in cassock and surplus. On special occasions, we have a deacon vested in dalmatic and stole and a subdeacon vested in tunicle. I vest in alb with rolled collar, chasuble, maniple, and stole. Choir vests in choir robes with a little hood type thing with the color of the season. We use white, purple, rose, red, and green. The stack is vested but the altar (ad populum) only has a fair white linen.
The service is Rite II. We have shortened forms of the offertory prayers but no orate fratres (thinking about adding it along with the full offertory prayers). I chant the Sursum Corda, Proper Preace, and concluding doxology. Lord's Prayer is sung. Service music is sung using settings from 1982 Hymnal. Bells are rung by the organist using a digital controller. We ring them at the sanctus, before the WOI, 3 bells during the WOI (genuflect, elevate, genuflect), Great Amen, Fraction, and priest's communion. I do the ablutions at the table using both water and wine.
Of course, the sacrament is reserved. We have a monstrance that only gets used during Holy Week. I'm thinking about working in Benediction throughout the year. We have a shrine to the BVM with votives that gets plenty of use. The church bells ring at noon and six. Other than that, and bowing slightly at the name of the BVM when mentioned in the liturgy, we have no real devotion to the BVM. I'm thinking about doing more.
We are a small church (70ASA) in a small town in a rural area. We are more or less affirming in our Anglo-Catholicism, moderate by TEC standards, and liberal by community standards My guess is we are a pretty typical expression of Anglo-Catholicism in the United States. Are we one of the destination tat shacks found in large cities? No. But those aren't typical.
So would you consider us Prayerbook Catholic or "Romanizing" Anglo-Catholic?
--------------------
Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
LQ is correct in ascertaining that I'm speaking more of Prayerbook Catholicism than genuine Sarum Use Churchmanship.
I'm wondering if there is a genuine appeal any more for Prayerbook Catholicism rather than "Romanizing" Anglo-catholicism?
In Canada, RC practice has notably moved Anglicanward for some time now, so if by Romanizing you mean Gounod and fiddlebacks, we'd be the only such operation in town outside the RC Latin Mass parishes. If you mean Novus Ordo, I don't think that there'd be any interest in our small AC circles (I can think of two exceptions offhand, but would bow to LQ's greater knowledge in this). Our AC parishes tend to be the one or two parishes in a town focussing on a good classical choral music programme - like the US, Canadian Anglicans have veered toward prayer book conformity as their culture-- bishops have not been tolerant of ritual autocephaly.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Depends on what you mean
My parish is probably the most Anglo-Catholic parish in the diocese. Here is what we do. On a typical Sunday, we have a thurifer, crucifer, and two torches all vested in cassock and surplus. On special occasions, we have a deacon vested in dalmatic and stole and a subdeacon vested in tunicle. I vest in alb with rolled collar, chasuble, maniple, and stole. Choir vests in choir robes with a little hood type thing with the color of the season. We use white, purple, rose, red, and green. The stack is vested but the altar (ad populum) only has a fair white linen.
The service is Rite II. We have shortened forms of the offertory prayers but no orate fratres (thinking about adding it along with the full offertory prayers). I chant the Sursum Corda, Proper Preace, and concluding doxology. Lord's Prayer is sung. Service music is sung using settings from 1982 Hymnal. Bells are rung by the organist using a digital controller. We ring them at the sanctus, before the WOI, 3 bells during the WOI (genuflect, elevate, genuflect), Great Amen, Fraction, and priest's communion. I do the ablutions at the table using both water and wine.
Of course, the sacrament is reserved. We have a monstrance that only gets used during Holy Week. I'm thinking about working in Benediction throughout the year. We have a shrine to the BVM with votives that gets plenty of use. The church bells ring at noon and six. Other than that, and bowing slightly at the name of the BVM when mentioned in the liturgy, we have no real devotion to the BVM. I'm thinking about doing more.
We are a small church (70ASA) in a small town in a rural area. We are more or less affirming in our Anglo-Catholicism, moderate by TEC standards, and liberal by community standards My guess is we are a pretty typical expression of Anglo-Catholicism in the United States. Are we one of the destination tat shacks found in large cities? No. But those aren't typical.
So would you consider us Prayerbook Catholic or "Romanizing" Anglo-Catholic?
Since you use the 1979 BCP with minimal "accretions", I would call you modern prayerbook catholic. Really, it sounds like the style that I refer to as "modern catholic" and as moderate A-C. I wish this were the norm in the average TEC parish, frankly. I'm guessing you are probably in the Midwest?
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
|
Posted
IIRC, the Anglican cathedral in Toronto is a place that demonstrates a contemporary iteration of prayerbook catholic liturgy and ceremonial, with some touches traditionally associated with Sarum/English Use, notably the servers in albs (though not apparelled, I think). Personally, I like this type of liturgy,which to me comes across as very balanced, dignified but not fussy or precious.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
In Canada, RC practice has notably moved Anglicanward for some time now,
What do you mean by this?
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
|
Posted
Yep...we are in the Midwest. This area may or may not be considered part of the old Biretta Belt. Most of the churches in the area are traditionally higher than the rest of the diocese.
--------------------
Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
In Canada, RC practice has notably moved Anglicanward for some time now,
What do you mean by this?
Relative informality of approach, plainness of vestments, less complicated music. Most of my RC friends, particularly francophone, who enter into Anglican churches for weddings or funerals comment strongly on this.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
|
Posted
It's worth noting that the liturgical norms for English and French Canada are significantly different. Visiting my local parish I was surprised to find everyone standing during the Eucharistic Prayer, kneeling if at all only for the institution narrative itself. I am accustomed to standing for the EP as an Anglican, but in that case we pick one and stick to it.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
It's worth noting that the liturgical norms for English and French Canada are significantly different. Visiting my local parish I was surprised to find everyone standing during the Eucharistic Prayer, kneeling if at all only for the institution narrative itself. I am accustomed to standing for the EP as an Anglican, but in that case we pick one and stick to it.
In my experience, kneeling after the Sanctus seems to be a marker of Anglo-catholic identity, whereas standing for the entire Eucharistic Prayer marks someone as influenced by the New Liturgical Movement, (the old' "the EP is a single unified prayer" argument beloved by Liturgy Canada and their fans)
--------------------
It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
|
Posted
In general, perhaps, but it's still standard fare at Anglo-Catholic parishes like St Matthias Bellwoods and (for more pragmatic reasons) the Convent. But I've never been to any Anglican parish where everyone remained standing after the Sanctus, knelt at "On the night ..." and got up again for the Memorial Acclamation.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
In Canada, RC practice has notably moved Anglicanward for some time now,
What do you mean by this?
Relative informality of approach, plainness of vestments, less complicated music. Most of my RC friends, particularly francophone, who enter into Anglican churches for weddings or funerals comment strongly on this.
I have yet to go to an Episcopal parish service that did not feel more formal than the average Roman Catholic Novus Ordo Mass. This is especially true in the suburbs of the US. Actually, everything you list is more descriptive of the Catholic parishes I have been to in the US (with a few exceptions) than of any Episcopal parish I have been to. Are you in Francophone or Anglophone Canada?
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
In Canada, RC practice has notably moved Anglicanward for some time now,
What do you mean by this?
Relative informality of approach, plainness of vestments, less complicated music. Most of my RC friends, particularly francophone, who enter into Anglican churches for weddings or funerals comment strongly on this.
I have yet to go to an Episcopal parish service that did not feel more formal than the average Roman Catholic Novus Ordo Mass. This is especially true in the suburbs of the US. Actually, everything you list is more descriptive of the Catholic parishes I have been to in the US (with a few exceptions) than of any Episcopal parish I have been to. Are you in Francophone or Anglophone Canada?
Ottawa, on the line: 30% francophone in Ottawa, 80% on the other side of the river. The ACoC in Ontario, for historical reasons (strain of Irish Anglicanism from the 1800s) tends to be on the low middle side, chasubles only becoming widespread in the 1970s and 1980s.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
|
Posted
Being a Midwesterner, I'd say that the general churchpersonship of Episcopalians around here tends to be what I call "Novus Ordo Anglo-Catholic." It seems as though the Episcopalians around here were so Catholic that when the post-conciliar liturgical reforms were undertaken, they felt they had no choice but to go along with them.
Kneeling from the end of the Sanctus is the norm. Three sacred ministers are not the norm, just as it is not in the Catholic church down the street. I would agree that Episcopal liturgies do seem a bit more formal than those at a Catholic church.
Although I'm stationed in the Midwest, I've been to Episcopal churches on both coasts, and the experience is not a whole lot different.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
Three sacred ministers are not the norm
One can't get the staff these days.
Sadly it's a problem that extends to most of us in Christendom, it seems. The last Catholic funeral I attended, the priest had absolutely no help whatsoever. Not even an altar server. I've got to give him a lot of credit--he discreetly managed to tend his own thurible. I'm not sure if it's acceptable, but I would have easily consented to assisting him, if he would have been willing to look the other way in my being Lutheran and all. Knowing him, I'd say there would have been a chance, if I'd known he were short-staffed beforehand.
[ 24. December 2013, 19:18: Message edited by: Olaf ]
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
