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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Value of Suffering?
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Okay, gotta put some parameters on that. Something I'm puzzling about lately as a Christian speaking from a Christian point of view is the value of certain kinds of suffering. I mean, I understand the kind that issues in something worthwhile (e.g. pregnancy or writing a freakin' book). I understand the value of enduring unjust suffering imposed by someone else if it serves as a witness to someone else of Christ, or if it brings about a bettering of somebody's situation (e.g. getting yourself arrested while nonviolently standing up for abused workers). And I understand the general value of suffering in knocking the rough edges off one's personality (we hope, anyway) and teaching patience, persistence, forgiveness, etc.
What I don't get is the value of suffering that seems to be minus any of that (well, maybe not the last). I mean, is suffering ever just plain wasted? If the suffering is bettering nobody's lot, serves as a witness to nobody, and isn't having any visible effect for the good on either the perp or the victim, is it wasted? (Assume for the moment that there are damn good reasons the victim can't remove himself from the situation, or bring about change in it either.)
This is maybe a bit incoherent. If my prose is causing any of you to suffer, my apologies.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Why must suffering have a purpose ?
[ 19. November 2013, 23:00: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Logically, it need not. I raise the question because wasted anything tends to piss me off, and I'm hoping to discover some other perspective on such situations.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Highfive
Shipmate
# 12937
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Posted
I've been brooding over this issue over the last year. There was a Baptist Sermon I attended over a year ago where I watched the young pastor jab his finger at the old wooden cross on the stage and declare "IT'S ALL ABOUT SACRIFICE!!". It could of been "all about suffering", too. I have a little trouble remembering because I was suffering myself. My flatmate was secretly screwing me over while I was trying to show him the love of Christ.
The idea of sacrifice was going around a bit at the time. The Red Cross was sending emails asking if I could sacrifice chocolate and use the money saved to donate. I was getting the idea that both the Red Cross and my church were in serious financial troubles.
I heard this "sacrifice" message at exactly the wrong time. I gave me the confirmation that the difficulties I was enduring with my flatmate were simply part of my Christian journey. After I kicked that flatmate out, I endured trauma and anxiety up until this day. Six months in, one of the pastors from that church called me to find out how was going. His response to my anxiety was "You've sinned somehow".
Saying it's about "suffering" or about "sacrifice" without indicating a reason or goal behind it is highly reckless council (expletives withheld). That's my perspective.
Posts: 111 | From: Brisbane | Registered: Aug 2007
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W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
.... And I understand the general value of suffering in knocking the rough edges off one's personality (we hope, anyway) and teaching patience, persistence, forgiveness, etc.
What I don't get is the value of suffering that seems to be minus any of that (well, maybe not the last). I mean, is suffering ever just plain wasted? If the suffering is bettering nobody's lot, serves as a witness to nobody, and isn't having any visible effect for the good on either the perp or the victim, is it wasted?
I don't understand why you dismiss the last part of your list of possible values - do they count for nothing?
I believe that nothing is ever wasted, although, of course, invisible effects provide very little in the way of comfort. And saying that nothing is wasted does not mean at all that the benefits outweigh the suffering. However, it seems like most of us (or at least most of us who are theists) respond to suffering by becoming more inclined to turn to God and more likely to accept the fact that we need help from others, at least occasionally, which is something I happen to believe is a key idea that God wants us to understand in a very deep and profound way.
The more I come to understand myself and others, the more I believe that the kind of life we tend to see as ideal and tend to strive for, with no loss or suffering or pain or adversity at all, would only lead us to take everything good for granted and to decide we don't need God or other people for anything. Less suffering is always better than more suffering, but I think it's up to us to try to achieve that as much as we can for each other, whether it's through scientific research, practical help, or impotent sympathy. Basically, we're all in this together and I think the whole of creation was designed to encourage us to see the truth of that, even though life can so often really, really suck as a result.
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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
Posts: 1565 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 2008
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
As such - no point per se. You are simply rowing towards survival and recovery against the tide.
But in the future (if you have one and maybe even if you don't)) you can help others using your experience; both in practical ways and in understanding, listening, explaining, encouraging.
As well as being a "living treasure" to your circle or community and the subject of stories passed on by them to their suffering friends.
It is a situation where you often have to rely on others - to learn to ask for and accept help, to realise how people-in-general don't like to see you or anyone suffering and will always help (or get someone else to help) especially if you actually ask them.
That's not the POINT OF IT of course but something that I feel was of value to me and those around me through cancer, recurrence and A Terrible Tractor Accident.
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Highfive: quote:
I heard this "sacrifice" message at exactly the wrong time. I gave me the confirmation that the difficulties I was enduring with my flatmate were simply part of my Christian journey. After I kicked that flatmate out, I endured trauma and anxiety up until this day. Six months in, one of the pastors from that church called me to find out how was going. His response to my anxiety was "You've sinned somehow".
Fuck. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
Way to blame the victim, Rev.-pastor-sir. Jerk. My sympathies. ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
As far as I can see, suffering may help us build compassion for others in the difficulties of their own journeys, and perhaps build patience with the less winsome ways they deal with their pain. Not everybody does grow in these ways, but the possibility is there.
If the Kingdom of God were accomplished in its fullness, this wouldn't be an issue. Maybe no one would need compassion. But could you imagine a person who has never suffered in any way dealing with the rest of us riff-raff here and now? Most such folks would be pretty handicapped IMO.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Logically, it need not. I raise the question because wasted anything tends to piss me off, and I'm hoping to discover some other perspective on such situations.
But, for something to be 'wasted' assumes it is usually - or often - a resource (something you elaborate in your op). I don't accept this premise. It seems to me that this is to over assign meaning to events, just as much as assuming positive co-incidences are evidence 'fate'.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
There is no value in innocent suffering. Innocent suffering is not morally intelligible.
Voltaire and Dostoyevsky say it best.
quote:
Voltaire sees only the terrible truth that the actual history of suffering and death is not morally intelligible. Dostoevsky sees—and this bespeaks both his moral genius and his Christian view of reality—that it would be far more terrible if it were.
Anti-theodicy.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
It depends on what you call innocent suffering. The classic example is the deer burning to death in a forest fire, but in human terms, children who are badly treated are innocent really.
This becomes difficult, since at the time, the suffering of the child seems to have no value, but later in life, it can acquire value, since through working through this suffering (as others have said), this can deepen our compassion for others.
I also think that it can help us to let go of ego and see God! But this is all a consequence of a material world, I suppose, which involves plenty of suffering and death.
Simone Weil expressed this in her enigmatic way: 'time's violence rends the soul; by the rent, eternity enters'.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
I am assuming that the kind of "value of suffering" referred to in the OP is the sort of thing where someone experiences some form of trauma or difficulty and because of their experience is better equipped to help those who suffer in a similar way, for example. For me this is an example of grace redeeming a bad thing and bringing good from it. It does not mean the suffering itself was good or had value.
This is why there is a difference all suffering is bad, if there is nothing that can be done to redeem it then there is no value/point. If there is a way to redeem some good from the situation and help others or prevent others suffering the same fate then value has been gained but that came from the grace/redemption not the suffering.
Ok. Got my tin hat on. Fire away.
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
Posts: 438 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2013
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
All of the above, especially Fyodor.
For me it's completely contingent. Creation = suffering for all concerned. Created. Creator.
Siddartha Gautama was on the right track: "I teach only two things, O disciples, the fact of suffering and the possibility of escape from suffering.". He just wasn't inclusive and optimistic enough. And suffering cannot be avoided.
Job trumps him for me. Man is born to trouble. The answer: 'Have you seen the hippo?'. In other words, don't worry, it's sorted.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jammy Dodger:
I am assuming that the kind of "value of suffering" referred to in the OP is the sort of thing where someone experiences some form of trauma or difficulty and because of their experience is better equipped to help those who suffer in a similar way, for example. For me this is an example of grace redeeming a bad thing and bringing good from it. It does not mean the suffering itself was good or had value.
This is why there is a difference all suffering is bad, if there is nothing that can be done to redeem it then there is no value/point. If there is a way to redeem some good from the situation and help others or prevent others suffering the same fate then value has been gained but that came from the grace/redemption not the suffering.
Ok. Got my tin hat on. Fire away.
Yes. I tend to back off from any pragmatic value in suffering. I think that before my suffering can accomplish anything, it first has to mean something. And the meaning is not intrinsic. I have to make the meaning. At best, that's a heavy blacksmithing job. At worst, impossible.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jammy Dodger:
I am assuming that the kind of "value of suffering" referred to in the OP is the sort of thing where someone experiences some form of trauma or difficulty and because of their experience is better equipped to help those who suffer in a similar way, for example. For me this is an example of grace redeeming a bad thing and bringing good from it. It does not mean the suffering itself was good or had value.
This is why there is a difference all suffering is bad, if there is nothing that can be done to redeem it then there is no value/point. If there is a way to redeem some good from the situation and help others or prevent others suffering the same fate then value has been gained but that came from the grace/redemption not the suffering.
Ok. Got my tin hat on. Fire away.
Brilliant. Very well said.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Simone Weil expressed this in her enigmatic way: 'time's violence rends the soul; by the rent, eternity enters'.
Eternity entering is one option: when there is nothing left.
The other option is rejection of eternity and the acceptance of nihilism.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Highfive:
I've been brooding over this issue over the last year. There was a Baptist Sermon I attended over a year ago where I watched the young pastor jab his finger at the old wooden cross on the stage and declare "IT'S ALL ABOUT SACRIFICE!!". It could of been "all about suffering", too. I have a little trouble remembering because I was suffering myself. My flatmate was secretly screwing me over while I was trying to show him the love of Christ.
The idea of sacrifice was going around a bit at the time. The Red Cross was sending emails asking if I could sacrifice chocolate and use the money saved to donate. I was getting the idea that both the Red Cross and my church were in serious financial troubles.
I heard this "sacrifice" message at exactly the wrong time. I gave me the confirmation that the difficulties I was enduring with my flatmate were simply part of my Christian journey. After I kicked that flatmate out, I endured trauma and anxiety up until this day. Six months in, one of the pastors from that church called me to find out how was going. His response to my anxiety was "You've sinned somehow".
Saying it's about "suffering" or about "sacrifice" without indicating a reason or goal behind it is highly reckless council (expletives withheld). That's my perspective.
I feel for you.
It seems that there's a kind of 'karma' principle in the minds of some Christians which looks backwards on suffering to add a dose of blame and guilt rather than to try to look forward, as Lamb Chopped and others indicate, to co-operate with God's grace and love to bring some good from it.
We all suffer at times. I don't believe that God caused our suffering. I do believe that God feels what we feel, and that God wants to maximise its potential for good.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
And yeah, Jammy Dodger you and Dostoevsky both.
As Evensong said.
And Highfive too.
Whenever someone tells me to sacrifice, give more, do more, evangelize more, I say, "Show me.". I really have. They don't like it.
Don't let ANYONE transfer, afflict, project, throw THEIR inadequacy, THEIR guilt as stones from THEIR detached houses, THEIR middle class comfort.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Evensong wrote:
Eternity entering is one option: when there is nothing left.
The other option is rejection of eternity and the acceptance of nihilism.
Yes, that's correct. It's probable that many people become bitter through suffering, and don't see the 'rent' in reality at all. I puzzle over this long and hard. I will report back when illumination occurs!
I can't help another saying from the blessed Simone on the subject of nihilism:
To say that the world is not worth anything, that this life is of no value, and to give evil as the proof, is absurd, for if these things are worthless, what does evil take from us?
(Very like C. S. Lewis, I think).
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I also think that it can help us to let go of ego and see God! But this is all a consequence of a material world, I suppose, which involves plenty of suffering and death.
That seems to make faith something like Stockholm syndrome.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I also think that it can help us to let go of ego and see God! But this is all a consequence of a material world, I suppose, which involves plenty of suffering and death.
That seems to make faith something like Stockholm syndrome.
I have heard that comparison before! Does it? I suppose if you see God as inflicting suffering on us, for soul-enhancing purposes, that would get close to Stockholm. However, there is something a bit different about that from what I said. I will have to make it more precise, I think.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Mention of Stockholm Syndrome reminds me of that stark line from Fulke Greville about Christianity's view of mankind:
'Created sick, and commanded to be well'.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Another way of recasting the issue in a very personal way is "Why should I go on [in this painful situation]?" What is the point of continuing under suffering that appears to have no point? Oh dear, I'm getting to the Hamlet state:
quote:
To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether ‘tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them. [AS IF!] To die: to sleep:
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache, and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to, ’tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish’d.
[ 21. November 2013, 01:40: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
I think that for Christians the difference is that God, Christ, also suffered so when we suffer we share the experience with Him and if we are indeed member of His Mystical Body then He suffers through us.
That gives gives it meaning even if we are unaware of it or don't consciously unite our suffering with Christ's, but if we do unite our suffering with Christ's then we've had an extra part in God's plan of salvation and, on a personal and psychological level, it can potentially guide and sustain us through our share in suffering.
[ 21. November 2013, 02:32: Message edited by: Pancho ]
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Highfive
Shipmate
# 12937
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Posted
Argh, I mean "He" not "he"!
Posts: 111 | From: Brisbane | Registered: Aug 2007
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christianbuddhist
Apprentice
# 17579
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Posted
The idea that suffering is somehow noble, desirable and intrinsically character building is the ideology of the boarding school, not of Christianity.
Posts: 15 | Registered: Mar 2013
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by christianbuddhist:
The idea that suffering is somehow noble, desirable and intrinsically character building is the ideology of the boarding school, not of Christianity.
There's a nice connexion though, in the muscular Christianity which was promulgated in the great public schools of England, so that a boy, fresh from the rugby field, could go straight to the front, and be killed. Follow up, follow up, follow up, till the field ring again and again, with the tramp of the twenty two men!
Now, I feel so moved, I wish to find a battle field to get shot on. Cry havoc, and let slip the dogs of war! Raa, raa, raa, school!
Overcome with emotion, I collapse on the sofa.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Another way of recasting the issue in a very personal way is "Why should I go on [in this painful situation]?" What is the point of continuing under suffering that appears to have no point? Oh dear, I'm getting to the Hamlet state:
quote:
To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether ‘tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them. [AS IF!] To die: to sleep:
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache, and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to, ’tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish’d.
Maybe (generic) you shouldn't. People frequently stay in crap situations because they present themselves with false choices. E.g. Either I carry on, or 'they' win - when there is no battle in the first place. There are also almost always more than two choices, but our thinking tends to narrow and polarise under stress.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I agree that there are times to give up, and figuring out whether the suffering is worthwhile or not is precisely part of that process to me. That is, assuming you have a real way to opt out. Not everyone will.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by christianbuddhist:
The idea that suffering is somehow noble, desirable and intrinsically character building is the ideology of the boarding school, not of Christianity.
In the Gospels, Christ tells his followers to take up their cross. In his epistles, St. Paul describes sharing in Christ's suffering, becoming like him in his death that he may share in the resurrection. Christianity has found meaning in suffering right from the beginning.
That's not to say we shouldn't seek doctors if we're sick, or take aspirins for headaches, or quit jobs that are driving us crazy and we can look at our situations and how to deal with them objectively but before we get to the doctor or submit our resignation letter we can unite the pain we do and did experience with Christ's.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I agree that there are times to give up, and figuring out whether the suffering is worthwhile or not is precisely part of that process to me. That is, assuming you have a real way to opt out. Not everyone will.
I don't think terms like "give up" help - they imply a dichotomous narrative of the situation. If you have cancer, for example, you can not choose not have it but you can choose many of the ways in which you respond to it.
And, I would argue, choosing not to have the third round of chemotherapy is not "losing the battle with cancer" or "giving in" it a choice a person makes about the quality of their life and how to live with their illness. Similarly battle and conflict narratives about one's life choices in other situations can be unhelpful.
"Is it worth it or not ?" Is again almost certainly to reduce a complex situation to a false choice.
[ 22. November 2013, 09:58: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Another way of recasting the issue in a very personal way is "Why should I go on [in this painful situation]?" What is the point of continuing under suffering that appears to have no point?
Quite simply, because you have no choice.
I very much agree with Jammy Dodger. Suffering has no "value" or purpose. God can and does work in and thru suffering, but, as he noted, that speaks to God's grace and goodness, not to the value of suffering per se. Rather, that seems to be the point of the gospel-- Christ came into the world to redeem and restore it-- to set things right. And we are told that ultimate "setting right" is a world without suffering and death. Which tells me that suffering is NOT good or right, it does not "add value"-- but is the work (or byproduct of the work) of the enemy.
[code]
[ 22. November 2013, 14:40: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I vaguely remember a similar thread years ago that got totally derailed by the choice/no choice issue. Could I maybe try to prevent that? IMHO yes, you always have a formal "choice"--there's always SOME alternative. But in reality there are some times where every freaking one of those alternatives is unutterably sucky. Either because it's something no decent person would do (e.g. abandon a troubled child who is making one's life hell) or because it's beyond the individual's personal capacity (e.g. I've discovered I simply can't tell flattering lies, I just can't, I suck at it, I'd rather eat a tripledecker sauerkraut sandwich with arsenic sauce). Those choices exist but they might as well not exist, for all the use the sufferer gets out of them.
It's also true that perfectly good but unnoticed alternatives get overlooked or downplayed sometimes. But it's hard for an outsider to tell if that's the case, as what looks doable from outside may be utterly impossible to the one who knows the whole story. Which may include confidential information.
But back to the idea of value in suffering--somebody upthread spoke of "joining your suffering to that of Christ." I've heard that idea before, but don't really know what it means. Is it anything more than "I am part of the body of Christ, so when I suffer, he suffers"? Isit some sort of mental act? What exactly is it?
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
But back to the idea of value in suffering-
Which begs the question doesn't it, you are functionally taking it for granted that there is. And therefore, reasoning that in a given situation you either find the value or its wasted. I am not sure you are even admitting of the existence of a situation where suffering doesn't have at least potential value.
If you are going to assume that it usually has value, then the only way you can decide if it is ever wasted is to be clear on the origin of the value. If it is some sort of sacrifice to Christ (why God wants this is entirely unclear to me) then presumably no suffering can be wasted in the same way that worship can not be wasted.
If it derives its value as a some form of learning experience, then presumably it is wasted if you either lack the capacity to process the lesson (i.e. like watching a smoker you love die of lung cancer before anyone knew there was a connection with smoking) - or if you had already learned that particular life lesson, i.e. wearing clothes that aren't fully dry in winter raises your risk of a cold. You may judge its worth it cos they'll dry before you get to work and you don't want to wear dirty clothes to work, but if you don't care about getting a cold much it may not motivate you to be more organized about your laundry.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Highfive:
But Jesus knew he would rise on the third day.
http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Matthew%2016.21
We can't look to prophecy to know when certain kinds of suffering will end.
quote:
Originally posted by Highfive:
Argh, I mean "He" not "he"!
Don't think so.
I think it means he, she, I , you, them, us, everyone.
Re some of the other things, particularly shit pastors say:
"It’s not somebody who has seen the light
It’s cold and it’s a broken Hallelujah."
With the emphasis on broken. Some pastors are stupid idiots.
[ 22. November 2013, 23:37: Message edited by: no prophet ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
But back to the idea of value in suffering-
Which begs the question doesn't it, you are functionally taking it for granted that there is. And therefore, reasoning that in a given situation you either find the value or its wasted. I am not sure you are even admitting of the existence of a situation where suffering doesn't have at least potential value.
If you are going to assume that it usually has value, then the only way you can decide if it is ever wasted is to be clear on the origin of the value. If it is some sort of sacrifice to Christ (why God wants this is entirely unclear to me) then presumably no suffering can be wasted in the same way that worship can not be wasted.
If it derives its value as a some form of learning experience, then presumably it is wasted if you either lack the capacity to process the lesson (i.e. like watching a smoker you love die of lung cancer before anyone knew there was a connection with smoking) - or if you had already learned that particular life lesson, i.e. wearing clothes that aren't fully dry in winter raises your risk of a cold. You may judge its worth it cos they'll dry before you get to work and you don't want to wear dirty clothes to work, but if you don't care about getting a cold much it may not motivate you to be more organized about your laundry.
I think we're talking past each other. I do not believe any suffering has value in and of itself qua suffering. I would be quite happy with a world in which no suffering at all existed. And i think the idea of suffering on purpose to make some sort of "offering" to God out of it (like the priests of Baal, who cut themselves)is beyond perverted.
But I think suffering gains a value--is "worth it"-- in some obvious cases, like the painful birth of a long awaited beloved child. Or the suffering that aid workers undergo as they help those so much worse off in emergencies. That pain is worth it, in this case because something good comes of it that could realistically speaking have come in no other way. But that still leaves me with the obscure cases, where suffering happens and there seems no redemption of it.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
When I look back on the suffering in my life, I realize that much of it (not all, by a long shot) has caused me to grow.
Having said that, I must emphasize that I am entitled to say that only about my own suffering. No one has the right to comment on what others should do with their suffering.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yes, I think that's true. There's an old saying that everyone should have at least one bad relationship, in order to cut their teeth, round off the rough edges, and get a sense of who's wrong and who's right for them. Well, maybe more than one.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I think we're talking past each other. I do not believe any suffering has value in and of itself qua suffering. I would be quite happy with a world in which no suffering at all existed. And i think the idea of suffering on purpose to make some sort of "offering" to God out of it (like the priests of Baal, who cut themselves)is beyond perverted.
But I think suffering gains a value--is "worth it"-- in some obvious cases, like the painful birth of a long awaited beloved child. Or the suffering that aid workers undergo as they help those so much worse off in emergencies. That pain is worth it, in this case because something good comes of it that could realistically speaking have come in no other way. But that still leaves me with the obscure cases, where suffering happens and there seems no redemption of it.
Well, then we're still talking past each other, because I'm at a loss then about what you are asking for. You say you are not looking for a value in suffering, but then your question seems to be re: suffering that has no redeeming value or purpose. What exactly is it you're asking for?
Again, for myself, I would suggest that such instances are exactly that-- pure, futile, suffering-- for no greater good, no greater value, no "life lesson". They are evidence that the world is still screwed up in so many ways, and the reason why we cry out for God's ultimate restoration.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
Its all relative
I am suffering. Through my own fault.
And I find absolutely no value in it at all
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Well, maybe I'm just not able to communicate it well enough. There is a particular situation of my own which is making me ask the question, but d***** if I'm going to bring it up on the Ship and get chewed up. It hurts too much when that happens. I'm sorry I can't seem to get the philosophical question across in general terms.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Sea of Tranquility
Shipmate
# 4454
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Posted
Perhaps suffering is a bit like panning for gold? You give things a really good shake and find all sorts of truly valuable things surfacing (not that I've ever actually panned for gold, but I think that's more or less how it works). Appreciation of the state of not suffering, and a realisation of who one's friends are, for example. Ironically, suffering seems to have a bizarre ability to bring happiness.
Posts: 93 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2003
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Well, maybe I'm just not able to communicate it well enough. There is a particular situation of my own which is making me ask the question, but d***** if I'm going to bring it up on the Ship and get chewed up. It hurts too much when that happens. I'm sorry I can't seem to get the philosophical question across in general terms.
Maybe what you're really wanting is just to vent about the futility of suffering? I get that. Sounds like you agree that all the lame claptrap that's spewed ("suffering makes us stronger", "God has a plan for it" etc etc) is all too often just a bunch of garbage. Yet somehow you're still struggling to find meaning and purpose in whatever you're going thru. That's probably natural-- even if sometimes futile. Sometimes crap is just crap, and there's just no way to pretty that up.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sea of Tranquility:
Perhaps suffering is a bit like panning for gold? You give things a really good shake and find all sorts of truly valuable things surfacing (not that I've ever actually panned for gold, but I think that's more or less how it works). Appreciation of the state of not suffering, and a realisation of who one's friends are, for example. Ironically, suffering seems to have a bizarre ability to bring happiness.
I stand by my comments earlier. Any benefit from suffering comes from: the grace of God in redeeming situations and people or from the compassionate and loving actions of others, or in drawing from us a response (by the grace of God) that is more nobler than we might have believed possible. In your example, I believe the "gold" comes from the compassionate actions of those real "friends" and not from the suffering. I think that makes the grace/redemption/compassion even more precious. Suffering is unpleasant, distressing, hurtful, upsetting and not in the least bit desirable. Grace, redemption and compassion are absolutely desirable at all times but especially when we are suffering.
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
Posts: 438 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2013
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Maybe what you're really wanting is just to vent about the futility of suffering? I get that. Sounds like you agree that all the lame claptrap that's spewed ("suffering makes us stronger", "God has a plan for it" etc etc) is all too often just a bunch of garbage. Yet somehow you're still struggling to find meaning and purpose in whatever you're going thru. That's probably natural-- even if sometimes futile. Sometimes crap is just crap, and there's just no way to pretty that up.
It's Lamb Chopped's prerogative to be unsatisfied with the answers she's been given but why dismiss them as lame claptrap? Isn't it possible some of the people offering this advice have gone through some real suffering themselves? Isn't it possible that their advice, satisfactory or not, came through experience?
The truth is that we're all quite willing to undergo suffering if the price is right: Submitting to diet and exercise for the perfect figure, submitting to surgery for the perfect face, years of school and corporate grunt work for the perfect career, submitting to endless campaigns and public scrutiny for the perfect position of political power, etc. People find meaning in suffering quite easily when it comes to material ends.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
[The truth is that we're all quite willing to undergo suffering if the price is right: Submitting to diet and exercise for the perfect figure, submitting to surgery for the perfect face, years of school and corporate grunt work for the perfect career, submitting to endless campaigns and public scrutiny for the perfect position of political power, etc. People find meaning in suffering quite easily when it comes to material ends.
Hmmm. I ought really to let Lamb Chopped clarify if it's what she meant but I don't recognise your examples as suffering. For me each example you give is one of something where we submit ourselves to self-discipline, hard-work and foregoing short-term comfort/pleasure for long-term gain. I don't think that constitutes true suffering - that for me is something external imposed on us that we would never choose.
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
Posts: 438 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2013
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I don't mind if both get discussed on this thread at all; they tend to overlap, don't they? I mean, the area in which I'm suffering right now is one where theoretically I could escape tomorrow; but the price that would come with the escape is presently too high to pay. So is my suffering voluntary, or involuntary? Gets kinda fuzzy.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jammy Dodger:
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
[The truth is that we're all quite willing to undergo suffering if the price is right: Submitting to diet and exercise for the perfect figure, submitting to surgery for the perfect face, years of school and corporate grunt work for the perfect career, submitting to endless campaigns and public scrutiny for the perfect position of political power, etc. People find meaning in suffering quite easily when it comes to material ends.
Hmmm. I ought really to let Lamb Chopped clarify if it's what she meant but I don't recognise your examples as suffering. For me each example you give is one of something where we submit ourselves to self-discipline, hard-work and foregoing short-term comfort/pleasure for long-term gain. I don't think that constitutes true suffering - that for me is something external imposed on us that we would never choose.
The self-discipline and the hard work are merely the context, reasoning and justification behind the suffering. The suffering of diet and exercise lies in the hunger, exhaustion and injuries, the suffering of cosmetic surgery lies in the cutting of the body, the scarring, etc; the suffering of the academic and professional career lies in the mental suffering, stress, the pressure, the potential loneliness, and their physical manifestations in things like insomnia, depression, alcoholism, etc.
Like in other things there are different degrees of suffering, from very minor ones, like when I miss elevensies and second breakfast, to major ones like sickness and physical injury but they're all sufferings of a kind. The odds are most of us reading this tend to suffer the first kind more often ( see the First World Problems thread in heaven ) but these are differences of ( sometimes very great and silly) degrees.
If suffering were true only when it is externally imposed upon us then that is liable to lay blame on the sufferer because one can always fault that person's choices for his predicament.
I have no idea what prompted Lamb Chopped's thread and I don't ask why and as I've written it's her prerogative to judge the advice she see's however she thinks best but it is indeed the Christian tradition to find meaning in suffering. It's the invitation to take up the cross.
St. Josemaria Escrivá wrote that there are times when these crosses come unbidden, like the encounter of Simon of Cyrene with Jesus. We can walk away if possible, or we can declare the pain to be an illusion, or we can rage like the other thief crucified with Jesus. We can also accompany Jesus on his walk towards Calvary. The saints urge the latter choice.
P.S.
Let me just emphasize again that I don't write this to discourage anyone from using common sense and looking at things objectively and resolving their problems. I'm not saying: don't go see the doctor, don't resign your job, don't sign the petition. I'm just saying that if one does find oneself in that situation where there's no easy way out there is still value in that person's suffering before the problem is resolved, whether it gets resolved or not.
[ 23. November 2013, 20:40: Message edited by: Pancho ]
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Maybe what you're really wanting is just to vent about the futility of suffering? I get that. Sounds like you agree that all the lame claptrap that's spewed ("suffering makes us stronger", "God has a plan for it" etc etc) is all too often just a bunch of garbage. Yet somehow you're still struggling to find meaning and purpose in whatever you're going thru. That's probably natural-- even if sometimes futile. Sometimes crap is just crap, and there's just no way to pretty that up.
It's Lamb Chopped's prerogative to be unsatisfied with the answers she's been given but why dismiss them as lame claptrap? Isn't it possible some of the people offering this advice have gone through some real suffering themselves? Isn't it possible that their advice, satisfactory or not, came through experience?
In answer to your question-- obviously when I dismissed them as "claptrap" I was simply offering my 2 cents, cuz that's what we do here, worth about what you paid for it. But I do think you may be misreading what I was saying. I'm certainly not meaning to discount other people's experiences of finding meaning or God's blessing in suffering. Rather, I was simply echoing Jammy Dodger's observation that those blessings are the result of God's grace working in and thru suffering-- but not an indication (IMHO) that the suffering itself was caused or allowed for that purpose. IMHO some (not all) suffering is entirely unnecessary, the futility of it makes the suffering all the worse. Suggesting (not that anyone has) that the suffering exists to serve some "greater good" only creates an additional burden and seems to make God the author of evil. That is not the case, though, for all suffering.
As for Lamb Chopped's view, if you'll reread the context, you'll see I was not at all trying to represent her views but rather fishing around trying to understand them better.
ymmv
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
It seems to me that there are strong and weak models re God being involved in suffering.
Strong: God inflicts things on us to teach us and purify us in some mysterious or obvious ways.
Weak: God doesn't inflict things on us to make us suffer but will use them teach us and purify us etc.
I find both of these offensive. Because in the strong model, God is a bastard and mean. In the weak one God's like scavenger waiting to clean up the carcass. (I can't develop my thinking fully about this just now as I have an appointment, as the strong and weak thing just occurred to me, but I probably learned it from someone else.)
But this is what I'm thinking: suffering is not about God, it is mostly about other people doing bad shit, and about a flawed creation doing shit in whatever mix of God and natural history you prefer. People and creation following their natures at least to an extent.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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