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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: "Evangelii Gaudium". The joy of the gospel.
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
What do you think of the early reports about Evangelii Gaudium?
There are plenty of other reports, of course, with differing takes on the various parts of the Pope's statement. Someone else may be able to find a link to the whole document, or to a better summary.
What's your take on it?
[title edited - usual guideline on foreign language]
[ 30. November 2013, 14:07: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
Could you provide a translation of the Latin.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
Rocco has got one over at Whispers in the Loggia
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
Someone else may be able to find a link to the whole document, or to a better summary.
It can be read in its entirety at the Vatican Website at the following link:
Evangelii Gaudium
I'm going to try to read it tonight or tomorrow but they say it's over 200 pages long so it's going to take me a while.
Jimmy Akin has a summary of the document and its background at his blog at the National Catholic Register:
Pope Francis’ new document, Evangelii Gaudium: 9 things to know and share
[ 27. November 2013, 02:49: Message edited by: Pancho ]
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
There's a more extensive summary of the document at the Vatican Radio website:
Pope issues first Apostolic Exhortation: Evangelii Gaudium
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
I like this fellow more and more.
The prosperity gospel is shite and there was no "eye of the needle" gate.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
I've just seen an intriguing write up in the Daily Telegraph. Given my own interest in church worship practices, I was particularly struck by this comment in the article (albeit I've not seen the actual text):
quote:
It says that traditional styles of worship are not necessarily suitable for newly evangelised non-Western people, or the modern world in general
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Heh heh ... I don't expect him to be recommending Vineyard style worship styles any time soon, though South Coast Kevin but your point is well made.
Incidentally, did I ever tell you about the conversation I once had with a 'new-church' type charismatic dude who complained that they were unable to get many Africans to attend their services in a particular African country but were ending up predominantly with ex-pats because the indigenous people in that area were far more comfortable with the robes and the bells and smells found in the Roman and Anglo-Catholic churches ...
Incidentally, I could show you You Tube videos of Orthodox churches in Ghana which look and sound recognisably Orthodox only with drums and a more African feel ...
The same applies to Anglican and Catholic churches in many African countries.
As far as the RC Church goes, you'll find a very 'Latin American' feel to some of the music and worship in Central and South America and in the Latin American diaspora.
The kind of Brompton Oratory High Mass style isn't the only way they do things.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Jason Zarri
Apprentice
# 15248
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Posted
quote:
As we open our hearts, the Pope goes on, so the doors of our churches must always be open and the sacraments available to all. The Eucharist, he says pointedly, “is not a prize for the perfect, but a powerful medicine and nourishment for the weak” And he repeats his ideal of a Church that is “bruised, hurting and dirty because it has been out on the streets” rather than a Church that is caught up in a slavish preoccupation with liturgy and doctrine, procedure and prestige. “God save us,” he exclaims, “from a worldly Church with superficial spiritual and pastoral trappings!” Urging a greater role for the laity, the Pope warns of “excessive clericalism” and calls for “a more incisive female presence in the Church”, especially “where important decisions are made.”
Text from page http://tinyurl.com/puct2lt
of the Vatican Radio website
All I can say to that is: Wow. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
[ 30. November 2013, 10:40: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
Posts: 19 | Registered: Oct 2009
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Heh heh ... I don't expect him to be recommending Vineyard style worship styles any time soon, though South Coast Kevin but your point is well made.
Incidentally, did I ever tell you about the conversation I once had with a 'new-church' type charismatic dude who complained that they were unable to get many Africans to attend their services in a particular African country but were ending up predominantly with ex-pats because the indigenous people in that area were far more comfortable with the robes and the bells and smells found in the Roman and Anglo-Catholic churches ...
Incidentally, I could show you You Tube videos of Orthodox churches in Ghana which look and sound recognisably Orthodox only with drums and a more African feel ...
The same applies to Anglican and Catholic churches in many African countries.
As far as the RC Church goes, you'll find a very 'Latin American' feel to some of the music and worship in Central and South America and in the Latin American diaspora.
The kind of Brompton Oratory High Mass style isn't the only way they do things.
You also get very modern RC services in this country - A-C is well, quite different to post-Vatican II RC. I think the relative lack of singing in UK RC churches is the main difference, though...
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
Emphasis on reaching out to the people in their own context? Check.
Emphasis on preaching the gospel? Check.
Preaching advice? Check.
The 288 Theses? (sans indulgences, of course). ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
[ 28. November 2013, 02:08: Message edited by: Olaf ]
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I've just read the chapter and paragraph headings and thought, yes indeed. Will repay greater study of the text. I'm going to take a couple of days for a first read.
Interesting man, this new pope. He's certainly accentuating the positive.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
I like how he states that the reservation of ordination to males is not open to question and that there is a difference between power and sacramental function. Both points seem to have been studiously ignored by some.
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Ah, but will the sharing of power with the other half of the humans actually be looked at?
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Ah, but will the sharing of power with the other half of the humans actually be looked at?
The bazillion dollar question, Horseman Bree.
Of course, what "power" consists of, and in what sense we should be talking about it at all is another interesting question.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
I like how he states that the reservation of ordination to males is not open to question and that there is a difference between power and sacramental function. Both points seem to have been studiously ignored by some.
I won't go further into DH territory than this, but there is a certain amount of authority that only people ordained as priests and bishops can have unless a whole lot of unchangeable Catholic doctrine other than that regarding the ordination of women is to change. Even if women are cardinals or occupy high positions in the curia, their decisions will always be able to be reversed by the current pope and probably some other men in positions of authority between the pope and them. (The only exception being that in a conclave where female cardinals vote, their votes will be equal to that of male cardinals). The same is true for women who have positions of ecclesiastical jurisdiction in Catholic dioceses and religious orders - a bishop, pope, or other male will always be able to overrule them.
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
I like how he states that the reservation of ordination to males is not open to question and that there is a difference between power and sacramental function. Both points seem to have been studiously ignored by some.
See? This Exhortation has something even for you, CL!
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
The same is true for women who have positions of ecclesiastical jurisdiction in Catholic dioceses and religious orders - a bishop, pope, or other male will always be able to overrule them.
This has always been the case, but it usually came down to being able to administer the sacrament of holy orders. Honestly, I don't expect any sort of widespread change.
That said, in theory, it seems that the language of the document attempts to steer the organization back toward a collection of bishops each heading their own respective churches, rather than an emphasis on the head organization micromanaging everything, irrespective of vast differences in culture. (Vox Clara, anyone?)
So what if the pope starts appointing mitred abbesses (something Olaf certainly suggested for the ordinariate)? They would still have to depend on bishops for ordinations, but those abbesses of yesteryear wielded enough financial and political power to see to it that their goals were achieved. In modern times, there would have to be some way for the abbesses to exercise their oversight.
The fact that the ordination question has been flat out shut down shows that this administration is closer to the last than the media chooses to convey.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
The same is true for women who have positions of ecclesiastical jurisdiction in Catholic dioceses and religious orders - a bishop, pope, or other male will always be able to overrule them.
This has always been the case, but it usually came down to being able to administer the sacrament of holy orders. Honestly, I don't expect any sort of widespread change.
That said, in theory, it seems that the language of the document attempts to steer the organization back toward a collection of bishops each heading their own respective churches, rather than an emphasis on the head organization micromanaging everything, irrespective of vast differences in culture. (Vox Clara, anyone?)
So what if the pope starts appointing mitred abbesses (something Olaf certainly suggested for the ordinariate)? They would still have to depend on bishops for ordinations, but those abbesses of yesteryear wielded enough financial and political power to see to it that their goals were achieved. In modern times, there would have to be some way for the abbesses to exercise their oversight.
The fact that the ordination question has been flat out shut down shows that this administration is closer to the last than the media chooses to convey.
Rome has never micromanaged and has never wanted to. The Church lives by the principle of subsidiarity. The problem is that diocesan bishops and episcopal conferences have progressively abdicated responsibility for difficult issues to Rome over the past half a century of more. A good recent example would be the Irish hierarchy trying to pass the buck to Rome for the botched handling of the abuse crisis in Ireland, aided and abetted by the Kenny government, rather than manning up and taking their lumps. The problem is compounded by the doctrinal unreliability of many of the episcopal conferences - the big Vatican bogeyman is a convenient strawman for "pastorally difficult" doctrine.
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jason Zarri:
quote:
As we open our hearts, the Pope goes on, so the doors of our churches must always be open and the sacraments available to all. The Eucharist, he says pointedly, “is not a prize for the perfect, but a powerful medicine and nourishment for the weak” And he repeats his ideal of a Church that is “bruised, hurting and dirty because it has been out on the streets” rather than a Church that is caught up in a slavish preoccupation with liturgy and doctrine, procedure and prestige. “God save us,” he exclaims, “from a worldly Church with superficial spiritual and pastoral trappings!” Urging a greater role for the laity, the Pope warns of “excessive clericalism” and calls for “a more incisive female presence in the Church”, especially “where important decisions are made.”
Text from page http://tinyurl.com/puct2lt
of the Vatican Radio website
All I can say to that is: Wow.
Do you think there's any chance that this and the upcoming synod may open the door to communion for those in unorthodox marriage arrangements?
*hopeful face*
[ 30. November 2013, 10:42: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by CL:
The Church lives by the principle of subsidiarity. The problem is that diocesan bishops and episcopal conferences have progressively abdicated responsibility for difficult issues to Rome over the past half a century of more.
Indeed, and the Curia found it increasingly appealing to call the shots. All shots. The fault is certainly on both sides. May I add that while I am a great fan of the principle of subsidiarity and I actually study it and its implications from an Organisation Theorist's point of view as part of my day job, one of the great challenges is that in order to be successfully applied, this principle requires the "base" to be (a) educated to a level that enables them to exercise true discernment, and (b) able and willing to think beyond their own backyard/immediate gratification. Neither are really given in the present situation.
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
Posts: 733 | Registered: Apr 2008
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Jason Zarri
Apprentice
# 15248
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
quote:
Originally posted by Jason Zarri:
quote:
As we open our hearts, the Pope goes on, so the doors of our churches must always be open and the sacraments available to all. The Eucharist, he says pointedly, “is not a prize for the perfect, but a powerful medicine and nourishment for the weak” And he repeats his ideal of a Church that is “bruised, hurting and dirty because it has been out on the streets” rather than a Church that is caught up in a slavish preoccupation with liturgy and doctrine, procedure and prestige. “God save us,” he exclaims, “from a worldly Church with superficial spiritual and pastoral trappings!” Urging a greater role for the laity, the Pope warns of “excessive clericalism” and calls for “a more incisive female presence in the Church”, especially “where important decisions are made.”
Text from page http://tinyurl.com/puct2lt
of the Vatican Radio website
All I can say to that is: Wow.
Do you think there's any chance that this and the upcoming synod may open the door to communion for those in unorthodox marriage arrangements?
*hopeful face*
You know, before this document was released I never would have thought so, but now, who knows? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
[ 30. November 2013, 10:39: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Check out the free studying resource Open Source Study Notes, where anyone can contribute their study notes: http://www.scholardarity.com/?page_id=1942
Posts: 19 | Registered: Oct 2009
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
I hope this guy has strong, supportive, shrewd people who are watching his back.
Pope JP1 was going to shake things up, too...
![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif) ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Jason Zarri
I've fixed the scroll lock which your coding broke. I appreciate you probably did not know this would happen. Our ancient software does not wrap around very long links.
So you need to practise your coding. If you use tinyurl for direct links, that avoids the breaking of the scroll lock, which is why this page went all pear-shaped. A better way is to use the url button and give the link a label.
Each of these options is easy after a bit of practice. Try the practice thread in the Styx. if you're stuck, send me a private message and I'll explain more fully.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I hope this guy has strong, supportive, shrewd people who are watching his back.
Pope JP1 was going to shake things up, too...
Sure he was. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
I've managed to read through the 200+ pages of this apostolic exhortation…
I doubt that many will.
And that to me is symbolic for what I would say about most of its content.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I've managed to read through the 200+ pages of this apostolic exhortation…
I doubt that many will.
And that to me is symbolic for what I would say about most of its content.
Why would I want to read 200+ pages of the opinions of the leader of somebody else's church? Thinking there is something wrong with me for not doing so is symbolic of something.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Jason Zarri
Apprentice
# 15248
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Jason Zarri
I've fixed the scroll lock which your coding broke. I appreciate you probably did not know this would happen. Our ancient software does not wrap around very long links.
So you need to practise your coding. If you use tinyurl for direct links, that avoids the breaking of the scroll lock, which is why this page went all pear-shaped. A better way is to use the url button and give the link a label.
Each of these options is easy after a bit of practice. Try the practice thread in the Styx. if you're stuck, send me a private message and I'll explain more fully.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
Sorry about that. I had no idea. I'll be sure to use one of those options next time.
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Check out the free studying resource Open Source Study Notes, where anyone can contribute their study notes: http://www.scholardarity.com/?page_id=1942
Posts: 19 | Registered: Oct 2009
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Why would I want to read 200+ pages of the opinions of the leader of somebody else's church? Thinking there is something wrong with me for not doing so is symbolic of something.
I was critiquing the content of the exhortation, not its (non-)readers.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Why would I want to read 200+ pages of the opinions of the leader of somebody else's church? Thinking there is something wrong with me for not doing so is symbolic of something.
I was critiquing the content of the exhortation, not its (non-)readers.
That was far from clear.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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