quote:

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Originally posted by Josephine:
Someone else may be able to find a link to the whole document, or to a better summary.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
Could you provide a translation of the Latin.

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quote:

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It says that traditional styles of worship are not necessarily suitable for newly evangelised non-Western people, or the modern world in general

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quote:

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As we open our hearts, the Pope goes on, so the doors of our churches must always be open and the sacraments available to all. The Eucharist, he says pointedly, “is not a prize for the perfect, but a powerful medicine and nourishment for the weak” And he repeats his ideal of a Church that is “bruised, hurting and dirty because it has been out on the streets” rather than a Church that is caught up in a slavish preoccupation with liturgy and doctrine, procedure and prestige. “God save us,” he exclaims, “from a worldly Church with superficial spiritual and pastoral trappings!” Urging a greater role for the laity, the Pope warns of “excessive clericalism” and calls for “a more incisive female presence in the Church”, especially “where important decisions are made.”


Text from page http://tinyurl.com/puct2lt
of the Vatican Radio website

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All I can say to that is: Wow.

[ 30. November 2013, 10:40: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
 

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Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Heh heh ... I don't expect him to be recommending Vineyard style worship styles any time soon, though South Coast Kevin but your point is well made.

Incidentally, did I ever tell you about the conversation I once had with a 'new-church' type charismatic dude who complained that they were unable to get many Africans to attend their services in a particular African country but were ending up predominantly with ex-pats because the indigenous people in that area were far more comfortable with the robes and the bells and smells found in the Roman and Anglo-Catholic churches ...

Incidentally, I could show you You Tube videos of Orthodox churches in Ghana which look and sound recognisably Orthodox only with drums and a more African feel ...

The same applies to Anglican and Catholic churches in many African countries.

As far as the RC Church goes, you'll find a very 'Latin American' feel to some of the music and worship in Central and South America and in the Latin American diaspora.

The kind of Brompton Oratory High Mass style isn't the only way they do things.

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You also get very modern RC services in this country - A-C is well, quite different to post-Vatican II RC. I think the relative lack of singing in UK RC churches is the main difference, though...
 

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Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :
 
Emphasis on reaching out to the people in their own context? Check.
Emphasis on preaching the gospel? Check.
Preaching advice? Check.

The 288 Theses? (sans indulgences, of course).

[ 28. November 2013, 02:08: Message edited by: Olaf ]
 

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Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
I've just read the chapter and paragraph headings and thought, yes indeed. Will repay greater study of the text. I'm going to take a couple of days for a first read.

Interesting man, this new pope. He's certainly accentuating the positive.
 

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Posted by CL (# 16145) on :
 
I like how he states that the reservation of ordination to males is not open to question and that there is a difference between power and sacramental function. Both points seem to have been studiously ignored by some.
 

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Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :
 
Ah, but will the sharing of power with the other half of the humans actually be looked at?
 

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Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Ah, but will the sharing of power with the other half of the humans actually be looked at?

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quote:

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Originally posted by CL:
I like how he states that the reservation of ordination to males is not open to question and that there is a difference between power and sacramental function. Both points seem to have been studiously ignored by some.

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quote:

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Originally posted by CL:
I like how he states that the reservation of ordination to males is not open to question and that there is a difference between power and sacramental function. Both points seem to have been studiously ignored by some.

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quote:

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Originally posted by stonespring:
The same is true for women who have positions of ecclesiastical jurisdiction in Catholic dioceses and religious orders - a bishop, pope, or other male will always be able to overrule them.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Olaf:

quote:

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Originally posted by stonespring:
The same is true for women who have positions of ecclesiastical jurisdiction in Catholic dioceses and religious orders - a bishop, pope, or other male will always be able to overrule them.

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This has always been the case, but it usually came down to being able to administer the sacrament of holy orders. Honestly, I don't expect any sort of widespread change.

That said, in theory, it seems that the language of the document attempts to steer the organization back toward a collection of bishops each heading their own respective churches, rather than an emphasis on the head organization micromanaging everything, irrespective of vast differences in culture. (Vox Clara, anyone?)

So what if the pope starts appointing mitred abbesses (something Olaf certainly suggested for the ordinariate)? They would still have to depend on bishops for ordinations, but those abbesses of yesteryear wielded enough financial and political power to see to it that their goals were achieved. In modern times, there would have to be some way for the abbesses to exercise their oversight.

The fact that the ordination question has been flat out shut down shows that this administration is closer to the last than the media chooses to convey.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jason Zarri:

quote:

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As we open our hearts, the Pope goes on, so the doors of our churches must always be open and the sacraments available to all. The Eucharist, he says pointedly, “is not a prize for the perfect, but a powerful medicine and nourishment for the weak” And he repeats his ideal of a Church that is “bruised, hurting and dirty because it has been out on the streets” rather than a Church that is caught up in a slavish preoccupation with liturgy and doctrine, procedure and prestige. “God save us,” he exclaims, “from a worldly Church with superficial spiritual and pastoral trappings!” Urging a greater role for the laity, the Pope warns of “excessive clericalism” and calls for “a more incisive female presence in the Church”, especially “where important decisions are made.”


Text from page http://tinyurl.com/puct2lt
of the Vatican Radio website

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All I can say to that is: Wow.

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quote:

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Originally posted by CL:
The Church lives by the principle of subsidiarity. The problem is that diocesan bishops and episcopal conferences have progressively abdicated responsibility for difficult issues to Rome over the past half a century of more.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:

quote:

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Originally posted by Jason Zarri:

quote:

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As we open our hearts, the Pope goes on, so the doors of our churches must always be open and the sacraments available to all. The Eucharist, he says pointedly, “is not a prize for the perfect, but a powerful medicine and nourishment for the weak” And he repeats his ideal of a Church that is “bruised, hurting and dirty because it has been out on the streets” rather than a Church that is caught up in a slavish preoccupation with liturgy and doctrine, procedure and prestige. “God save us,” he exclaims, “from a worldly Church with superficial spiritual and pastoral trappings!” Urging a greater role for the laity, the Pope warns of “excessive clericalism” and calls for “a more incisive female presence in the Church”, especially “where important decisions are made.”


Text from page http://tinyurl.com/puct2lt
of the Vatican Radio website

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All I can say to that is: Wow.

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Do you think there's any chance that this and the upcoming synod may open the door to communion for those in unorthodox marriage arrangements?

*hopeful face*

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You know, before this document was released I never would have thought so, but now, who knows?

[ 30. November 2013, 10:39: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
I hope this guy has strong, supportive, shrewd people who are watching his back.

Pope JP1 was going to shake things up, too...


 

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Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
Jason Zarri

I've fixed the scroll lock which your coding broke. I appreciate you probably did not know this would happen. Our ancient software does not wrap around very long links.

So you need to practise your coding. If you use tinyurl for direct links, that avoids the breaking of the scroll lock, which is why this page went all pear-shaped. A better way is to use the url button and give the link a label.

Each of these options is easy after a bit of practice. Try the practice thread in the Styx. if you're stuck, send me a private message and I'll explain more fully.

Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
 

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Posted by CL (# 16145) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Golden Key:
I hope this guy has strong, supportive, shrewd people who are watching his back.

Pope JP1 was going to shake things up, too...

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Sure he was.
 

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Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 
I've managed to read through the 200+ pages of this apostolic exhortation…

I doubt that many will.

And that to me is symbolic for what I would say about most of its content.
 

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Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by IngoB:
I've managed to read through the 200+ pages of this apostolic exhortation…

I doubt that many will.

And that to me is symbolic for what I would say about most of its content.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Jason Zarri

I've fixed the scroll lock which your coding broke. I appreciate you probably did not know this would happen. Our ancient software does not wrap around very long links.

So you need to practise your coding. If you use tinyurl for direct links, that avoids the breaking of the scroll lock, which is why this page went all pear-shaped. A better way is to use the url button and give the link a label.

Each of these options is easy after a bit of practice. Try the practice thread in the Styx. if you're stuck, send me a private message and I'll explain more fully.

Barnabas62
Purgatory Host

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quote:

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Originally posted by mousethief:
Why would I want to read 200+ pages of the opinions of the leader of somebody else's church? Thinking there is something wrong with me for not doing so is symbolic of something.

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I was critiquing the content of the exhortation, not its (non-)readers.
 

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Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:

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Originally posted by mousethief:
Why would I want to read 200+ pages of the opinions of the leader of somebody else's church? Thinking there is something wrong with me for not doing so is symbolic of something.

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I was critiquing the content of the exhortation, not its (non-)readers.

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