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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Interfaith Worship
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Tommy1
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# 17916
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Posted
It seems obvious to me that interfaith services, interfaith worship and interfaith prayer are all violations of the First Commandment. What do other people think?
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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047
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Posted
That it's a bit daft to think that the God revealed in the New Testament isn't the same one who the Qu'ran and the Torah attempt to reveal. In other words, it rather depends on the faith. If we're talking about participating in rituals to appease Zeus, then you might have a point. If Christians, Muslims and Jews come together to pray and to worship God, that seems entirely in keeping with the first commandment. Otherwise the fact that we do not have a full understanding of God would mean all our worship would violate the first commandment.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
To be honest I've never participated in interfaith worship, although I've often been present at non-Christian religious events. I don't feel a strong need for this either, I guess I'm more of an ecumenicalist than a panecumenicalist.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Crœsos
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# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
That it's a bit daft to think that the God revealed in the New Testament isn't the same one who the Qu'ran and the Torah attempt to reveal.
I'm not so sure you can reconcile the trinitarian, incarnate God of the Christians with the unitary, non-incarnate deity worshiped by Jews and Muslims. Those are some pretty big differences to overlook if you're going to claim they're the same entity.
On the larger point, it's pretty clear that the Bible is opposed to things like religious tolerance or religious pluralism. These are (relatively) modern concepts.
[ 13. December 2013, 20:45: Message edited by: Crœsos ]
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Forthview
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# 12376
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Posted
Within the British Commonwealth there are many faiths represented.Occasional Commonwealth religious events have taken place at Westminster Abbey in the presence of the Head of the Commonwealth who is also the Supreme Governor of the Church of England .
This week's memorial service for Nelson Mandela included prayers said by representatives of Jewish,Muslim.Christian faith and one other which I did not recognise.
Just as many Christians in the last 50 years have begun to recognise and value the religious insights of other Christian communities,we have now to start to learn about the religious insights and values of other faiths.We can still be true to our own while recognising the essential brotherhood and sisterhood of all who ,at least from the Christian POV, are children of the one loving God.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Extremely common in western Canada, where the traditions imported from (mostly) Europe have died with the generation that was brought up by those who settled here between about 1880 and 1920. Their children are the carriers of the dying, more rigid traditions. The grandchildren are far, far more flexible. And they could care less about rightness the sort of rightness you suggest.
Thus, for example, at Remembrance Day, there are clergy from: RC, Anglican, Baptist, Jewish, Hindu, Moslem, First Nations.
Interfaith dialogue takes some doing. You have to be comfortable with what you hold, you must be open to listening, and you mustn't be ready to focus on details. Rather, you must be prepared to focus on values, such as respect, family, behaving in accord with what you believe, kindness. It is not watered down, not everything into the pot. More like everyone being authentic to themselves and their faith, but listening to everyone else. In my experience First Nations and Hindus often have the easiest time of it for reasons of how faith is structured and practiced.
I have felt that Christians often feel interfaith events are places to find converts. Which they are definitely not. You have to be willing to conduct yourself and your thought processes willingly differently. It is not okay to be judgemental, and you must suspend that. You must even suspend your distaste if that's what you are experiencing because sensitive people will see it, and consider your level of respect and openness. If you cannot do these things, don't participate or perhaps don't attend. I'm good friends with a Anglican chaplain who is an excellent model to follow with this sort of thing. Many mansions in the house....
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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hugorune
Apprentice
# 17793
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Posted
There is no doubt in my mind that, in a world wracked by violence and enmity, with no blameless 'sides' and religion reduced to tribalism by it's own adherents, that it is more Christlike to seek peace, forgiveness, and reconciliation - and that can only be done by coming together with these communities for the purpose of exchanging love, not hatred. As much as they are not part of the body of Christ, they are God's children as are we, and in that they are aware of God and love Him, there is an opportunity to explore ways to share in that love together, and that can be a pathway to healing and hope.
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“A proud man is always looking down on things and people; and, of course, as long as you are looking down, you cannot see something that is above you.”
C.S. Lewis - Mere Christianity
Posts: 47 | From: Melbourne | Registered: Aug 2013
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
no prophet wrote quote:
Interfaith dialogue takes some doing. You have to be comfortable with what you hold, you must be open to listening, and you mustn't be ready to focus on details. Rather, you must be prepared to focus on values, such as respect, family, behaving in accord with what you believe, kindness. It is not watered down, not everything into the pot. More like everyone being authentic to themselves and their faith, but listening to everyone else. In my experience First Nations and Hindus often have the easiest time of it for reasons of how faith is structured and practiced.
I have no problems with any of that. But the question was about interfaith worship, not dialogue, which most people seem to have interpreted it as. That's a different thing entirely.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Tommy1
Shipmate
# 17916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
Within the British Commonwealth there are many faiths represented.Occasional Commonwealth religious events have taken place at Westminster Abbey in the presence of the Head of the Commonwealth who is also the Supreme Governor of the Church of England .
This week's memorial service for Nelson Mandela included prayers said by representatives of Jewish,Muslim.Christian faith and one other which I did not recognise.
Yes those would both be serious violations of the First Commandment
quote:
essential brotherhood and sisterhood of all who ,at least from the Christian POV, are children of the one loving God.
Are you suggesting that saying that all people are children of God is the Christian point of view? Surely the Bible says whilst all people are creatures of God not all people are children of God, for example John 8:42-44.
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hugorune
Apprentice
# 17793
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy1:
quote:
essential brotherhood and sisterhood of all who ,at least from the Christian POV, are children of the one loving God.
Are you suggesting that saying that all people are children of God is the Christian point of view? Surely the Bible says whilst all people are creatures of God not all people are children of God, for example John 8:42-44.
From your posts I'm guessing you're a literalist, so I'll put this in front of you. This was the covenant God made with the children of Abraham.
Genesis 17:13:
"both he that is born in your house and he that is bought with your money, shall be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant."
That's a pretty clear statement IMHO, and establishes a basis for at least two covenants - with the Jews and Christians to persist in perpetuation. To what extent there might be other covenants, and how legitimate they might be as a part of God's purpose, it is beyond my comprehension, but as far as I'm concerned, anyone who loves God in a spiritual sense - whatever they understand that to mean - and seeks peace - has something in common with me. Probably more in common than those who look for division and strife.
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[ 14. December 2013, 07:15: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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“A proud man is always looking down on things and people; and, of course, as long as you are looking down, you cannot see something that is above you.”
C.S. Lewis - Mere Christianity
Posts: 47 | From: Melbourne | Registered: Aug 2013
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St Deird
Shipmate
# 7631
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy1:
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
Within the British Commonwealth there are many faiths represented.Occasional Commonwealth religious events have taken place at Westminster Abbey in the presence of the Head of the Commonwealth who is also the Supreme Governor of the Church of England .
This week's memorial service for Nelson Mandela included prayers said by representatives of Jewish,Muslim.Christian faith and one other which I did not recognise.
Yes those would both be serious violations of the First Commandment
How? If I am not praying to another god, nor practising another faith, but simply being present while members of other faiths pray to their god, how am I, personally, violating the first commandment?
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They're not hobbies; they're a robust post-apocalyptic skill-set.
Posts: 319 | From: the other side of nowhere | Registered: Jun 2004
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Evangeline
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# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
On the larger point, it's pretty clear that the Bible is opposed to things like religious tolerance or religious pluralism. These are (relatively) modern concepts.
Except I believe that Jesus' treatment of the Samaritans and the practice of the Early Church of worshipping with the Jews promotes religious tolerance in a way that the OT did not.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Tommy1
Shipmate
# 17916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St Deird:
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy1:
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
Within the British Commonwealth there are many faiths represented.Occasional Commonwealth religious events have taken place at Westminster Abbey in the presence of the Head of the Commonwealth who is also the Supreme Governor of the Church of England .
This week's memorial service for Nelson Mandela included prayers said by representatives of Jewish,Muslim.Christian faith and one other which I did not recognise.
Yes those would both be serious violations of the First Commandment
How? If I am not praying to another god, nor practising another faith, but simply being present while members of other faiths pray to their god, how am I, personally, violating the first commandment?
Its not a question of simply happening to be in the same area. Its taking part in a service where non Christian worship or prayer is a part of that service. That's the violation.
Posts: 256 | Registered: Dec 2013
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Tommy1
Shipmate
# 17916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Extremely common in western Canada ... The grandchildren are far, far more flexible. And they could care less about rightness the sort of rightness you suggest.
Indeed Matthew 7:13-14
quote:
Thus, for example, at Remembrance Day, there are clergy from: RC, Anglican, Baptist, Jewish, Hindu, Moslem, First Nations.
Again that would be a serious violation of the First Commandment
quote:
You have to be willing to conduct yourself and your thought processes willingly differently. It is not okay to be judgemental, and you must suspend that. You must even suspend your distaste if that's what you are experiencing because sensitive people will see it, and consider your level of respect and openness.
So not believing in God, the Bible, The Christian Faith, that's all fine, the really important thing is that people don't judge or even show distaste for false religions.
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hugorune
Apprentice
# 17793
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy1:
Its not a question of simply happening to be in the same area. Its taking part in a service where non Christian worship or prayer is a part of that service. That's the violation.
A violation of what, though?
Posts: 47 | From: Melbourne | Registered: Aug 2013
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Net Spinster
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# 16058
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Posted
The first commandment tells the Jews that the giver is the God that brought them out of Egypt and they should have no other gods before him. Given that Christians, Muslims, and Jews (and a few other small groups) all think they are worshiping that God, the one that brought the Jews out of Egypt , I would assume on plain reading that an interfaith service involving only those groups is not a violation.
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spinner of webs
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hugorune
Apprentice
# 17793
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy1:
So not believing in God, the Bible, The Christian Faith, that's all fine, the really important thing is that people don't judge or even show distaste for false religions.
And we find what your beef really is - you find other religions 'distasteful'.
No (or few) Christians who goes to those events will say that the other religions are right in any of the contentious points of doctrine. But there is no violation of the first commandment going on on their part - they are quite capable of separating out the worship of God in manners that are according to their faith, from manners that aren't.
What's happening here is that you don't like the fact that we're talking to other cultural groups and finding ways to work together for good purposes - and you're trying to twist the word of God to suit your own prejudices.
I can fully appreciate that interfaith services aren't for everyone, and I have no problem with that. But don't try to tell everyone else (who approves of those services) that they're wrong. The first commandment isn't "And thou shalt always seek conflict with those who do not believe in Me as you do." If it were, and Jesus endorsed it in those terms, then I would say you have a point, but you don't.
[ 14. December 2013, 01:42: Message edited by: hugorune ]
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“A proud man is always looking down on things and people; and, of course, as long as you are looking down, you cannot see something that is above you.”
C.S. Lewis - Mere Christianity
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
The first commandment tells the Jews that the giver is the God that brought them out of Egypt and they should have no other gods before him. Given that Christians, Muslims, and Jews (and a few other small groups) all think they are worshiping that God, the one that brought the Jews out of Egypt, I would assume on plain reading that an interfaith service involving only those groups is not a violation.
I think the main point of contention is that Christians hold that the God the brought Israel out of Egypt is also Jesus. This is not something held by either Jews or Muslims, and not something most Christians consider a trivial viewpoint.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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St Deird
Shipmate
# 7631
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy1:
Its not a question of simply happening to be in the same area. Its taking part in a service where non Christian worship or prayer is a part of that service. That's the violation.
Again - how? What, precisely, is the action in which I start worshipping another God? Is the mere fact that I'm NOT storming out in a huff the moment someone else starts praying enough? Or is it something else?
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They're not hobbies; they're a robust post-apocalyptic skill-set.
Posts: 319 | From: the other side of nowhere | Registered: Jun 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy1:
Its taking part in a service where non Christian worship or prayer is a part of that service. That's the violation.
2 Kings 5:18-19: quote:
But may the Lord forgive your servant [Naaman] for this one thing: when my master enters the temple of Rimmon to bow down and he is leaning on my arm and I have to bow there also – when I bow down in the temple of Rimmon, may the Lord forgive your servant for this.’ ‘Go in peace,’ Elisha said.
To my mind Naaman is 'taking part in a service of non-Christian worship or prayer', one that's thoroughly pagan, and being expressly allowed to do so by Elisha. I don't expect Croesos will find this embodies religious tolerance or pluralism, nonetheless I think it's an indication that the nature of God, even as we see it in the Old Testament, is more nuanced than simply yelling out violations of the Ten Commandments.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I think the debate about interfaith worship is a healthy and important aspect of interfaith dialogue and is not helped at all by characterising the positions of folks who disagree as idolatrous on the one hand or prejudiced on the other.
My mind is not made up on this. I can see that interfaith worship has its confusing elements. But so far as sequenced individual prayers are concerned, I really don't see the problem. If a member of another faith community says a prayer to the God he believes in, say in a service of remembrance, but I find the wording he uses is one that I find helpful, or agree with, as a petition to the God I believe in, why should I not say Amen? I am affirming what has been said, not affirming the perception of God held by the person who has said it. To assert that I am doing something wrong at that point seems to be a judgment of my intentions.
I see nothing idolatrous in believing that someone has spoken truth in a prayer, even if he is, in my terms, confused about Who he has spoken the truth to. What is wrong with that?
I'm a Companion in the Northumbria Community as well as a forty-year member of a nonconformist evangelical church. The Northumbria Community has strong ecumenical intentions. It is orthodox in its understanding of God, emphasising Trinitarian belief, as can be seen from its liturgy. But it is highly eclectic over differences. It does not have policies re issues over which Christians from different parts of the Christian rainbow disagree. Like participation in interfaith services. It is more interested in the creative aspects of folks journeying together and agreeing to disagree while doing so.
Tommy1, hugorune, welcome to this unrestful cybercommunity. I'm one of the community Hosts, with some responsibility for moderating discussions and debates in Purgatory. There isn't a single problem about you airing your strongly held views here, and there is no problem about criticising the posts of others. But be careful not to imply faults in the characters of your Shipmates. One of the Ship's Commandments (Commandment 3) allows you to post to another Shipmate "your post is stupid", but not "you are stupid". That's an important difference when discussing contentious issues.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
I think we need to remember that Israel was created after the Exodus and by Mosaic covenant. The Muslims do not believe that Isaac was the son of promise and they have changed the story of Abraham to say that it was Ishmael whom God ordered to be sacrificed and then rescued by the provision of a substitute.
Islam rejects the Mosaic covenant and the name of YHWH, the covenantal name of God.
I do not think that the god that Mohammed forced upon the people is the same god that Abraham worshipped.
Finally, we cannot put Jews and Muslims into the same interfaith boat. The simplew reason is that Christians and Jews worship YHWH. Muslims do not. YHWH, according to Christian belief, was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, died for our sions and rose again.
The Jews do not believe this - yet. But when Christ returns they will see that he was their Messiah all along and all Israel will be saved.
They are still in receipt of the covenantal promises. Ishmael was excluded from the Abrahamic covenant by his replacement by Isaac who became the firstborn, the Son of the Promise. Islam is therefore outside the Old Testament Covenants, they reject the death of Jesus, they reject (obviously) the resurrection and the fact that he was YHWH incarnate.
According to the Apostle John that makes Islam antichrist. That would, incidentally, also apply to Judaism were it not for the fact that they are still God's Elect and they are only blinded temporarily until the time of the Gentiles is complete.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
The first commandment tells the Jews that the giver is the God that brought them out of Egypt and they should have no other gods before him. Given that Christians, Muslims, and Jews (and a few other small groups) all think they are worshiping that God, the one that brought the Jews out of Egypt , I would assume on plain reading that an interfaith service involving only those groups is not a violation.
The important word that you missed out is YHWH. It was YHWH who brought them out and the commandment is that we must have no other god but YHWH.
Islam denies that God is called YHWH.
[ 14. December 2013, 08:00: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Tommy1
Shipmate
# 17916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Tommy1, hugorune, welcome to this unrestful cybercommunity.
Thanks
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy1:
Its not a question of simply happening to be in the same area. Its taking part in a service where non Christian worship or prayer is a part of that service. That's the violation.
Why would it be a violation?
There is a huge variation among Christians as to how they see God (for example, here on the Ship, there are Christians whose God I simply do not recognise) - yet we are happy to worship with other Christians.
So why not other faiths?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy1:
It seems obvious to me that interfaith services, interfaith worship and interfaith prayer are all violations of the First Commandment. What do other people think?
I agree. It also spreads confusion among the minds of the faithful, putting the Christian faith on the same level as worshippers of idols and demons.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy1:
It seems obvious to me that interfaith services, interfaith worship and interfaith prayer are all violations of the First Commandment. What do other people think?
I agree. It also spreads confusion among the minds of the faithful, putting the Christian faith on the same level as worshippers of idols and demons.
And as for the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity....!
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Cara
Shipmate
# 16966
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
That it's a bit daft to think that the God revealed in the New Testament isn't the same one who the Qu'ran and the Torah attempt to reveal. In other words, it rather depends on the faith. If we're talking about participating in rituals to appease Zeus, then you might have a point. If Christians, Muslims and Jews come together to pray and to worship God, that seems entirely in keeping with the first commandment. Otherwise the fact that we do not have a full understanding of God would mean all our worship would violate the first commandment.
This, the very first response on the thread, makes a lot of sense to me...except the first commandment is from the Old Testament; as has been said below, the God of the first commandment is He who brought the Jews out of Egypt, the same God Christians, Jews and Muslims worship...all heirs of Abraham.
The question for Christians is, what about Christ? What difference does our allegiance to him make? As I see it, he revealed more about God, yes; and the same God as revealed in the OT (though sometimes, puzzlingly, seeming a bit different!).
But our understanding about God is still vague, imperfect, and surely far too narrow.
Jesus's major directive was to love God and love our neighbour.
I feel that there's is nothing wrong at all with praying alongside other believers and seekers. As has been said, in so doing, I'm not endorsing their view of God, necessarily (so for me it's fine to pray with Hindus and First Nations as well). I am turning towards God, with them--we are all turning towards the same God, who is far greater than our definitions of "him" --she/it--a being about whom we are still in the dark. Just glimmerings of light...
Jesus "is" God, for Christians--but in a way we still can't put into understandable concepts very well, for our poor human brains. Non-Christians don't see Jesus the same way. But throughout his ministry, Jesus pointed towards God; if we turn to God alongside other seekers, all of us with a slightly different conception of God, all of us probably wrong or seeing only a glimmer of what really Is,
are we really doing anything wrong?
I cannot feel it so. Aren't we all just turning towards "the Divine" ?But this is of course a modern viewpoint.
How things have changed! When I was a very small Catholic, one of the nuns said it was a sin even to step inside a "Protestant" church, far less worship alongside those heretics....
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Pondering.
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
On the larger point, it's pretty clear that the Bible is opposed to things like religious tolerance or religious pluralism. These are (relatively) modern concepts.
Indeed.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cara:
Jesus pointed towards God; if we turn to God alongside other seekers, all of us with a slightly different conception of God, all of us probably wrong or seeing only a glimmer of what really Is,
are we really doing anything wrong?
Except he did more than just point to God - as if he were some kind of prophet - he pointed to himself. There is no knowledge of God outside his revelation to us - whether that's through all the OT covenants (not just the Abrahamic one) and ultimately Jesus. Without the sum of these things there is no way to God.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy1:
It seems obvious to me that interfaith services, interfaith worship and interfaith prayer are all violations of the First Commandment. What do other people think?
I agree. It also spreads confusion among the minds of the faithful, putting the Christian faith on the same level as worshippers of idols and demons.
And as for the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity....!
Well, I've never been an ecumenist, at least not in the modern sense.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Tommy1
Shipmate
# 17916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy1:
Its taking part in a service where non Christian worship or prayer is a part of that service. That's the violation.
2 Kings 5:18-19: quote:
But may the Lord forgive your servant [Naaman] for this one thing: when my master enters the temple of Rimmon to bow down and he is leaning on my arm and I have to bow there also – when I bow down in the temple of Rimmon, may the Lord forgive your servant for this.’ ‘Go in peace,’ Elisha said.
To my mind Naaman is 'taking part in a service of non-Christian worship or prayer', one that's thoroughly pagan, and being expressly allowed to do so by Elisha. I don't expect Croesos will find this embodies religious tolerance or pluralism, nonetheless I think it's an indication that the nature of God, even as we see it in the Old Testament, is more nuanced than simply yelling out violations of the Ten Commandments.
I don't think that passage supports interfaith services at all. In 2 Kings 5:17 he promises not to worship any other gods. In 2 Kings 5:18 he then explains the situation in the temple Rimmon as one where he physically compelled to bow down and even for this he asks for forgiveness.
What Elisha did not say is 'well there's really nothing to forgive, maybe you should try to initiate an interfaith dialogue and try not to be so judgemental'. I don't see how this verse, even when taken out of context can support interfaith worship or prayer.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy1:
I don't think that passage supports interfaith services at all.
I didn't say it did. I was pointing out that the OT itself is not as binary as you appear to be suggesting - and that the right response might not be either. quote:
In 2 Kings 5:18 he then explains the situation in the temple Rimmon as one where he physically compelled to bow down and even for this he asks for forgiveness.
My take is that if most of the people I run across who espouse views similar to yours on this were to be confronted with the same situation as Elisha faced with Naaman, they would not have told him to "go in peace" but rather to take a principled stand and quit his job, even at the risk of his life. What would you have advised, and why? After all, is he not supping at the cup of demons or some such?
quote:
What Elisha did not say is 'well there's really nothing to forgive, maybe you should try to initiate an interfaith dialogue and try not to be so judgemental'.
Oh, so you are talking about interfaith dialogue (and not worship) now? Is there a case for one and not for the other?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Forthview
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Posted
As some people have pointed out,we already have Christians with varying points of view and beliefs.As mortal humans we do not have the fullness of knowledge of Almighty God.It is indeed our mortal imperfections which have caused us to separate ourselves from others.
There is much we can learn from other Christians and their understandings and much we can learn from followers of other faiths.We can see for example that they have usually the same divisions that Christianity has.
Yes ,indeed Christians recognise Jesus as the Messiah who told us that the essence of his message is that we should love God and our neighbour as ourselves.Jesus was asked once 'Who is my neighbour ?' We must try to see our neighbour in all the other' creatures' who inhabit this planet with us.It is difficult,I know.The Nicene creed teaches us that God is the
maker of heaven and earth ,of all things visible and invisible.We are showing respect to God by showing respect to all of his creatures and their ways of looking at the Universe.Why should we have anything to fear from others if our own faith is strong ?
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Tommy1
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# 17916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hugorune:
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy1:
Its not a question of simply happening to be in the same area. Its taking part in a service where non Christian worship or prayer is a part of that service. That's the violation.
A violation of what, though?
The First Commandment.
quote:
And we find what your beef really is - you find other religions 'distasteful'.
The reference to distaste was in reply to no prophet's post where he said that 'its not OK to be judgemental' in interfaith dialogue and he extended the point so far that participant should actively suppress not just judgement but even mere distaste.
That doesn't mean that Christians should 'always seek conflict' with followers of other religions but there's a difference between that and nonjudgementalism.
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Evensong
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# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy1:
It seems obvious to me that interfaith services, interfaith worship and interfaith prayer are all violations of the First Commandment. What do other people think?
A simplistic question that only deserves an simplistic answer.
The answer is no.
The important question is the motivation and purpose of ecumenicism: both between Christians and between Christians and others.
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Tommy1
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# 17916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St Deird:
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy1:
Its not a question of simply happening to be in the same area. Its taking part in a service where non Christian worship or prayer is a part of that service. That's the violation.
Again - how? What, precisely, is the action in which I start worshipping another God? Is the mere fact that I'm NOT storming out in a huff the moment someone else starts praying enough? Or is it something else?
If I may ask is there anything that would cause you to storm out in a huff or at least protest? Let me suggest a possible example. Supposing (and I realise this is unlikely but as a hypothetical situation) there was someone from a fundumentalist Morman sect taking part and he started speaking about the superiority of white people over black people. Would you be OK with that?
If I can ask a similar question to no prophet and hugorune. If you were taking part in a interfaith dialogue and one of the participants started to extol what he saw as the virtues of white supremacy would you still think that 'its not OK to be judgemental'? Would you 'suspend even your distaste'?
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I think the debate about interfaith worship is a healthy and important aspect of interfaith dialogue and is not helped at all by characterising the positions of folks who disagree as idolatrous on the one hand or prejudiced on the other. ...
That's helpful.
I share the same unease as I think Tommy1 is expressing. I also draw the distinction Arethosemyfeet makes between sharing with those who seem to be addressing their worship to the same God as we do - even if we don't agree with their understanding - and those who are addressing their prayers to some other god or idol, be it Zeus, Shiva, Wodin, Lug, 'the Goddess' or whoever.
Even with the other monotheistic faiths that worship the same God as we do, I think it's reasonable to say either that we can share even though we don't share the same revelation of him, or that because we believe in a much greater revelation, that is so incompatible that we can't share.
I don't agree with those who argue that Allah is a different God rather than a revelation of God which as Christians we don't accept and think is misguided.
I would also say three other things:-
1 'Whatever others may do, if you have doubts or are uncomfortable, don't'.
2. 'Don't let yourself be pressurised into doing something you're not happy with just because you're being made to feel it's good for community, social harmony, tolerance or politeness'.
3. 'Be ready to explain yourself but do so politely' (St Peter says something similar at 1 Pet 3:15).
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Evensong
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# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy1:
It seems obvious to me that interfaith services, interfaith worship and interfaith prayer are all violations of the First Commandment. What do other people think?
I agree. It also spreads confusion among the minds of the faithful, putting the Christian faith on the same level as worshippers of idols and demons.
And as for the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity....!
Well, I've never been an ecumenist, at least not in the modern sense.
So all non-Orthodox (Eastern or Other btw?) Christians worship different gods?
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a theological scrapbook
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St Deird
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# 7631
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy1:
quote:
Originally posted by St Deird:
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy1:
Its not a question of simply happening to be in the same area. Its taking part in a service where non Christian worship or prayer is a part of that service. That's the violation.
Again - how? What, precisely, is the action in which I start worshipping another God? Is the mere fact that I'm NOT storming out in a huff the moment someone else starts praying enough? Or is it something else?
If I may ask is there anything that would cause you to storm out in a huff or at least protest? Let me suggest a possible example. Supposing (and I realise this is unlikely but as a hypothetical situation) there was someone from a fundumentalist Morman sect taking part and he started speaking about the superiority of white people over black people. Would you be OK with that?
If I can ask a similar question to no prophet and hugorune. If you were taking part in a interfaith dialogue and one of the participants started to extol what he saw as the virtues of white supremacy would you still think that 'its not OK to be judgemental'? Would you 'suspend even your distaste'?
You are missing my point, somewhat. I'm not arguing about whether interfaith services are a good thing, or whether one should attend them. I am simply disputing whether attending an interfaith service, in and of itself, is a violation of the first commandment. You have yet to demonstrate how it could be.
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They're not hobbies; they're a robust post-apocalyptic skill-set.
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Tommy1
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# 17916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy1:
I don't think that passage supports interfaith services at all.
I didn't say it did. I was pointing out that the OT itself is not as binary as you appear to be suggesting - and that the right response might not be either. quote:
In 2 Kings 5:18 he then explains the situation in the temple Rimmon as one where he physically compelled to bow down and even for this he asks for forgiveness.
My take is that if most of the people I run across who espouse views similar to yours on this were to be confronted with the same situation as Elisha faced with Naaman, they would not have told him to "go in peace" but rather to take a principled stand and quit his job, even at the risk of his life. What would you have advised, and why? After all, is he not supping at the cup of demons or some such?
And did Elisha say that it was OK for Naaman to take part in such services? He did not. He leaves it up to Naaman's conscience. That fact that Naaman asks for forgiveness shows that he knows it is wrong to take part in such services even under compulsion, never mind voluntarily.
quote:
quote:
What Elisha did not say is 'well there's really nothing to forgive, maybe you should try to initiate an interfaith dialogue and try not to be so judgemental'.
Oh, so you are talking about interfaith dialogue (and not worship) now? Is there a case for one and not for the other?
No I was talking about interfaith worship. As for 'interfaith dialogue' the kind of dialogue been advocated here involves non judgementalism about other religions which is not something I could accept.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy1:
Did Elisha say that it was OK for Naaman to take part in such services? He did not. He leaves it up to Naaman's conscience.
Precisely. He doesn't say "oi, you're violating the First Commandment". Seems like a great example to follow to me.
We may have our reservations about interfaith worship, but calling people on the basis of the First Commandment doesn't seem like such a good idea. Letting people make a decision on the basis of their conscience sounds a lot better. All the more so in that to my mind, conscience is even more of an important part of the equation under the New Convenant than it was under the Old.
For what it's worth, I personally would probably struggle with playing an active role in an interfaith act of worship. If invited to attend one, I would think carefully about what my motivations were and how my participation (given that I have a recognised ministry position) might be perceived.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Forthview
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I certainly agree that we should not do anything which we feel simply pressurised into doing.
Most Christians feel comfortable worshipping within their own community and their own tradition and there is nothing wrong with that.
Many,but certainly not all Christians have begun to realise that Christians of other traditions can sometimes have something valuable to say to us which enhances,not detracts from our own traditions.In the next 50 years Western Christians will come into closer contact with people of other faiths and have to think about their reactions.Will it be distaste and an increased sense of their own good fortune in possessing the 'Truth',such as WAS the case of the nun,whom Cara mentions ? Or will it be respect,
a willingness to listen and learn and hope that our beliefs will also be respected ?
In my family there were/are Christians with differing points of view with backgrounds from Scotland,England,Ireland and Austria,with use of English and German language.Though it does make me feel less connected with one particular group,religious,nationalistic or linguistic I value the insights which I have from so many sources which make me the committed Catholic Christian which I am.
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Tommy1
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# 17916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St Deird:
You are missing my point, somewhat. I'm not arguing about whether interfaith services are a good thing, or whether one should attend them. I am simply disputing whether attending an interfaith service, in and of itself, is a violation of the first commandment. You have yet to demonstrate how it could be.
Because it is not simple being there observing the service but it is in fact actively taking part in a service that involves the worship of other gods.
I would be interested to here what your answer would be to the question of if you were taking part in such a service and one of the speakers started to advocate white supremacy would you 'storm out in a huff' or at least protest?
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Evensong
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# 14696
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Posted
Personally I reckon interfaith worship is mostly and eventually a waste of time.
Interfaith co-operation for the common good (charity) is where God is at.
You can even work with atheists on such ground.
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a theological scrapbook
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
How is white supremacy against the First Commandment (specifically)?
As it happens I was, incognito, in what turned out to be quite a syncretist meeting earlier this week, a lecture on "solidarity and spirituality". The speaker made a number of (to my mind) good and interesting points, but when he got on to explaining how an Amazonian shaman was unequivocally channelling spirits of flowers while painting, I decided it was time to go. However I did not leave in a huff, it was as much that I had other places to be and that I decided I was no longer being edified. If I had been on the same platform I might have voiced my dissent in some form; I would probably have made sure beforehand that the introductory remarks made it clear not all speakers shared the same views. That doesn't stop me engaging with them, much as here.
[ 14. December 2013, 10:23: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy1:
quote:
Originally posted by St Deird:
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy1:
Its not a question of simply happening to be in the same area. Its taking part in a service where non Christian worship or prayer is a part of that service. That's the violation.
Again - how? What, precisely, is the action in which I start worshipping another God? Is the mere fact that I'm NOT storming out in a huff the moment someone else starts praying enough? Or is it something else?
If I may ask is there anything that would cause you to storm out in a huff or at least protest? Let me suggest a possible example. Supposing (and I realise this is unlikely but as a hypothetical situation) there was someone from a fundumentalist Morman sect taking part and he started speaking about the superiority of white people over black people. Would you be OK with that?
If I can ask a similar question to no prophet and hugorune. If you were taking part in a interfaith dialogue and one of the participants started to extol what he saw as the virtues of white supremacy would you still think that 'its not OK to be judgemental'? Would you 'suspend even your distaste'?
People that formulate and lead interfaith services would stay well clear of things that would quite obviously cause offense to whatever party.
The whole damn idea is to find common ground.
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a theological scrapbook
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Tommy1
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# 17916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy1:
Did Elisha say that it was OK for Naaman to take part in such services? He did not. He leaves it up to Naaman's conscience.
Precisely. He doesn't say "oi, you're violating the First Commandment". Seems like a great example to follow to me.
I don't think that that argument from silence is a particularly strong one. Naaman already knows that it is wrong to take part in the services. Importantly Elisha does not say that God would forgive Naaman if he did that. Elisha cannot force him to do the right thing and so he leaves the decision up to him.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Eutychus: The speaker made a number of (to my mind) good and interesting points, but when he got on to explaining how an Amazonian shaman was unequivocally channelling spirits of flowers while painting, I decided it was time to go.
For a start, this speaker doesn't understand a whole lot about Amazonian indigenous people.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Dafyd
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# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
I would assume on plain reading that an interfaith service involving only those groups is not a violation.
I think the main point of contention is that Christians hold that the God the brought Israel out of Egypt is also Jesus. This is not something held by either Jews or Muslims, and not something most Christians consider a trivial viewpoint.
Most Christians think Jesus was also the God who brought Israel out of Egypt. All Jews and Muslims think Jesus wasn't. Does that mean that when Jews and Christians talk to each other about Jesus they are referring to different people? It doesn't.
Lois Lane knows(*) that Clark Kent is an alien from a different planet who can leap tall buildings at a single bound. Perry Mason thinks Clark Kent is a human being from Smallville. Are they talking about different people?
If someone talks about a socialist Muslim from Kenya is that sufficient to establish that they're not intending to refer to a centrist Christian from Hawaii?
Meaning is established in two ways. There are referential conventions that fix what we're talking about and descriptive conventions that fix what we're saying about it. It is the referential conventions that decide whether two people are talking about the same entity or not. In a sentence like 'Christians believe God is three persons, or God became incarnate as Jesus, whereas Jews and Muslims do not', 'God' is doing the referential work and 'three persons' and 'incarnate as Jesus' are doing descriptive work.
(*) Or does she? Are they still married? Or did they do a deal with the devil to bring Ma Kent back to life? No, that was Spiderman. I lose track. I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled.
[ 14. December 2013, 10:39: Message edited by: Dafyd ]
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
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