 |
|
|
|
|
| |
|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Monasticism, Plainness and the need for a rule of life
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
I have always been fascinated by both monasticism in liturgical churches, and Plain people - Amish, Mennonites, Hutterites, some Brethren and a minority of Quakers. My own theology and spirituality is very much influenced by monasticism - high but fairly austere. Reading many Quaker blogs as I do, I am struck by how many modern, often non-Christian Quakers and others are drawn to Plainness and having a rule of life. The need for a distinctive uniform. Withdrawing from the world to an extent. Given how wide the theological gap is between traditional monastics and Plain people, is a rule of life and community living a need people have? Do denominations which don't have such things (lower mainline Protestants and evangelicals) miss out? Is this need expressed in other ways?
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bostonman
Shipmate
# 17108
|
Posted
As a young adult living in a social-justice-oriented intentional community, I can certainly say it fills a lot of our needs--especially for emotional support that doesn't burden any one individual, and for support in living out a Christian identity. I'm interested in other people's takes.
Posts: 424 | From: USA | Registered: May 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
|
Posted
RC's have a wide pick in this of course, but the one monastic rule that is (a) easily applicable to lay-life and (b) used by many non-RC communities especially in the anglophone world is the Rule of Saint Benedict.
A general discussion of what the RSB means to a layperson here.
An excellent book explaining it here.
There are lay groups and -communities, many of which attached to a monastery, who live by the Rule. Most accept Christians of any denominations as members. Check the Lay Cistercians ( here ) .
I am close to them and wrote the English page of my local community here .
Many Benedictine monasteries have Oblate groups
If you don't want to / cannot associate with a group, the RSB is easily "liveable" alone.
There's a whole lot of literature on Lay life & the Rule of Benedict. If you want a bibliography, or discuss this in more depth, pm me.
--------------------
"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
Posts: 733 | Registered: Apr 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
Thanks for the links Desert Daughter.
However I was thinking more of roles within denominations with no kind of monasticism or withdrawing from the world, that 'replace' or substitute for those roles. What does an evangelical do who needs that kind of role? Particularly when celibacy is frowned upon within some evangelicals - marriage and having kids is seen as the normal route for everyone.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Some evangelicals and post-evangelicals are drawn to groups like the Northumbria Community ... Barnabas62 can tell us about them.
On the whole, though, I'd suggest that other in some of the more 'emergent' groups, the kind of concerns you've outlined don't appeal to the 'evangelical mind' - which - broad generalisation alert - tends to be activist and more concerned about proclamation than simplicity and contemplation.
Back in my more full-on evangelical days, the traits that were most admired were the ability to 'witness' to people or to reel off large chunks of scripture from memory ... and often out of context.
The mileage varies in different quarters though.
I think there is a growing interest in these issues in some sectors within evangelicalism but in a somewhat diletantte way.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
However I was thinking more of roles within denominations with no kind of monasticism or withdrawing from the world, that 'replace' or substitute for those roles. What does an evangelical do who needs that kind of role? Particularly when celibacy is frowned upon within some evangelicals - marriage and having kids is seen as the normal route for everyone.
Are you familiar with New Monasticism? I've only read bits and bobs about the movement (that seems like the best word to use) but it seems like roughly what you're talking about, I think...
--------------------
My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
RC's have a wide pick in this of course, but the one monastic rule that is (a) easily applicable to lay-life and (b) used by many non-RC communities especially in the anglophone world is the Rule of Saint Benedict.
A general discussion of what the RSB means to a layperson here.
An excellent book explaining it here.
There are lay groups and -communities, many of which attached to a monastery, who live by the Rule. Most accept Christians of any denominations as members. Check the Lay Cistercians ( here ) .
I am close to them and wrote the English page of my local community here .
Many Benedictine monasteries have Oblate groups
If you don't want to / cannot associate with a group, the RSB is easily "liveable" alone.
There's a whole lot of literature on Lay life & the Rule of Benedict. If you want a bibliography, or discuss this in more depth, pm me.
I love the Rule of St. Benedict and I love the office he sets out in the Rule. It's definitely something non-monastics can apply to their everyday lives.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
However I was thinking more of roles within denominations with no kind of monasticism or withdrawing from the world, that 'replace' or substitute for those roles. What does an evangelical do who needs that kind of role? Particularly when celibacy is frowned upon within some evangelicals - marriage and having kids is seen as the normal route for everyone.
Are you familiar with New Monasticism? I've only read bits and bobs about the movement (that seems like the best word to use) but it seems like roughly what you're talking about, I think...
I am relatively familiar with it thanks to reading Shane Claiborne. However, it seems to have limited popularity amongst evangelicals - the evangelical Anglican church I was a part of would have regarded it as hippy nonsense. Also New Monasticism seems more popular with men and it's not hard to see why - it is much more acceptable for male evangelicals to be celibate than women. Marriage and kids is seen as godly, celibacy is seen as selfish for women - it's not said, but perhaps the association of rejecting having a family is seen as too feminist.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I am relatively familiar with it thanks to reading Shane Claiborne. However, it seems to have limited popularity amongst evangelicals - the evangelical Anglican church I was a part of would have regarded it as hippy nonsense. Also New Monasticism seems more popular with men and it's not hard to see why - it is much more acceptable for male evangelicals to be celibate than women. Marriage and kids is seen as godly, celibacy is seen as selfish for women - it's not said, but perhaps the association of rejecting having a family is seen as too feminist.
I understand the 'hippy nonsense' view, but I thought New Monasticism was explicitly not about promoting celibacy. Am I incorrect?
--------------------
My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I am relatively familiar with it thanks to reading Shane Claiborne. However, it seems to have limited popularity amongst evangelicals - the evangelical Anglican church I was a part of would have regarded it as hippy nonsense. Also New Monasticism seems more popular with men and it's not hard to see why - it is much more acceptable for male evangelicals to be celibate than women. Marriage and kids is seen as godly, celibacy is seen as selfish for women - it's not said, but perhaps the association of rejecting having a family is seen as too feminist.
I understand the 'hippy nonsense' view, but I thought New Monasticism was explicitly not about promoting celibacy. Am I incorrect?
Married couples are admitted but I don't know the policy on children. However, the modern evangelical attitude towards the nuclear family is ambivalent at best towards married couples living as part of a community.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
|
Posted
Oh right, I get you and yes, you're probably right. Mind you, in my limited experience (I just mean a few conversations about this with non-Christian friends) the idea of living in a community with other family units is seen as pretty weird generally. ISTM it's not just evangelical Christians who think it odd!
Anyhow, I was kinda thinking New Monasticism isn't just about living in a big community, although that's obviously part of it. A couple of the links from the Wikipedia article talk about people living in a neighbourhood and deliberately praying together and sharing a lot of their possessions etc., without literally being under the same roof and having a common purse.
--------------------
My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
|
Posted
I think all kinds of communal living (sharing each other's company as well as property) is great and society needs more of it. But seeing how sex before marriage, multiple sexual partners, etc., is becoming the norm in the West, why are intentional communities where anyone can have sex with anyone (as long as both are adults and both consent) seen as a relic of the misguided 60's? It seems like a much better defense against STD's than the sleeping aroung that many single people do.
If you think sex is immoral outside marriage then make your communes/monasteries celibate, married or a mixture of the two. But if you don't - how would a sexual community work? None of that partner swapping or mandatory Gestalt therapy like in Karista or coitus interruptus like in Oneida. And no kidnapping like whatever just happened in the UK. People are jealous but honestly, jealousy has been ruining people's lives even among celibate sisters and brothers. Giving physical expression to sexual desire doesn't really make it more real. Purity of mind and purity of body are two different things, and sexual abstinence does not necessarily help someone achieve purity of mind.
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
I think experience suggests it tends to go a bit Jeremy Kyle after a time.
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
|
Posted
Jade Constable
Neomonastic movements are amongst other things more about recapturing the values of contemplation, often lost in the activism of typical Protestant expressions of faith. None of the ones I know anything about require members to be celibate and in fact are pretty vague about membership as well. More later after Christmas. Family due in an hour!
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Seth
Shipmate
# 3623
|
Posted
In the UK, the Evangelical Charismatic Jesus Fellowship community are a fairly well-established intentional community, and there are neo-anabaptist Bruderhof communes. I suppose that more classical Protestantism developed in reaction to monasticism, but there's always Taizé, with its Reformed roots...
Posts: 566 | From: Wiltshire, UK | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
The single male worship band leader at the local Baptist church (with an evangelical minister) has recently bought a house and has developed it as a 'community house'.
In some ways it's ideal for any church that has a group of a few young single people, especially those who'd otherwise be living in unpleasant bedsits or with family members who aren't Christians. I imagine that living this way binds them closer together, and deeply embeds them in the life of their church.
As for evangelicals wanting to marry off their young people instead, at what age does this tend to kick in? British people aren't normally expected to marry young, and the majority of evangelical churches in the UK - especially outside London and the South East - can't provide a big choice of marriage partners. So the churches might as well encourage community living as an alternative.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
The single male worship band leader at the local Baptist church (with an evangelical minister) has recently bought a house and has developed it as a 'community house'.
In some ways it's ideal for any church that has a group of a few young single people, especially those who'd otherwise be living in unpleasant bedsits or with family members who aren't Christians. I imagine that living this way binds them closer together, and deeply embeds them in the life of their church.
As for evangelicals wanting to marry off their young people instead, at what age does this tend to kick in? British people aren't normally expected to marry young, and the majority of evangelical churches in the UK - especially outside London and the South East - can't provide a big choice of marriage partners. So the churches might as well encourage community living as an alternative.
Most GLEs I know are expected to meet a partner in the Christian Union at uni, and marry after graduating.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Seth:
In the UK, the Evangelical Charismatic Jesus Fellowship community are a fairly well-established intentional community, and there are neo-anabaptist Bruderhof communes. I suppose that more classical Protestantism developed in reaction to monasticism, but there's always Taizé, with its Reformed roots...
The Jesus Army is a cult and not exactly the kind of community I want Christians to be a part of! They have a strong presence here in Northampton (where they started) and they are absolutely a cult.
I know the Bruderhof though - they are friends of the Student Christian Movement because they are a Peace Church.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
It varies. Back in the day there were large evangelical/charismatic churches which were well known for the youngsters marrying off at a generally earlier age than was the norm for British people.
In other places, I've known elders and leaders take very heavy-handed approach - almost breaking up courting couples at times or putting pressure on them to desist until such time as they were absolutely sure. I remember one pastor who would regularly predict doom and gloom for those couples who ignored his advice and went ahead and got married anyway ... many of them to very happy and successful marriages.
The mileage varied and probably still does.
The large-ish evangelical charismatic church I belonged to was like a gold-fish bowl. It was very pressurised. You dreaded being seen talking to anyone of the opposite sex because people would think you were going out with them or trying to get them down the aisle ...
I'm not glad I don't have to go through all that again ...
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Seth
Shipmate
# 3623
|
Posted
Jade Constable, I certainly wasn't making an endorsement of the Jesus Army/ Jesus Fellowship! It's not really my cup of tea at all, striking me as fairly authoritarian and socially conservative. I haven't read anything about for several years, and perhaps it has become more dysfunctional and dubious than it used to be.
My take, FWIW, is that modern Christian intentional communities are a kind of experiment; even the Bruderhof communities have had times when things seem to have gone quite wrong (one can find testimonies by ex-members on the web...).
Posts: 566 | From: Wiltshire, UK | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
|
Posted
Jade Constable
Gamaliel was a bit presumptive. I do know a lot about the Northumbria Community, but this website can tell you a good deal more and you can look at whatever takes your fancy.
It is neither an enclosed order nor a community whose distinctives include location or dress, so, on reflection and based on your OP, I'm not sure it is the sort of monasticism, or neomonasticism you may be interested in.
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
|
Posted
My slow watching of the scene tell me that the assumption of an absence is NEVER a good idea. You will find yourself searching among a lot. For instance the Community for Reconciliation isn't URC and yet it is and it may or may not fulfil your brief. Then there are the Moravians which before you say they are a denomination and not a community you need to look at their Settlements. Oh even Methodists went for settlements once.
Then you have the diakonia associations (odd spelling used as it is the international spelling and to distinguish them from deacons as order of clerics and deacons as people who run the church practically). These are another strand in the late nineteenth century monastic stream and have added complexity with the cross over in "equal but different" ministry of women. However they vary far more than this country would believe. I keep a vague eye of Community de Reuilly which is one of these associations. It started off mainly being a nursing order and indeed still runs/owns hospitals but now appears far closer to contemplative.
Jengie
--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Thanks for those links, Jengie Jon. I was aware that there are associations/groups of this kind within the broad Reformed tradition too - but know little about them.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
|
Posted
Living in an area with a large Amish community and having gotten to know a number of Amish people fairly well, it also strikes me that their Ordnung, their community Rule (and each community has its own variations regarding dress, engagement with technology, etc.), has many similarities to a monastic Rule. They're a good example of how married households with children can still manage to operate under a religious rule of life. (As one spiritual director puts it, "Everyone lives under a Rule. The question is, what Rule do you live under?")
Although as far as that goes, I know married couples with everyday jobs and households who follow a modified Benedictine Rule. I'm sure they're not nearly as hip as "New Monasticists," but to me they're interesting and inspiring people.
--------------------
Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
I know married couples with everyday jobs and households who follow a modified Benedictine Rule. I'm sure they're not nearly as hip as "New Monasticists," but to me they're interesting and inspiring people.
That's pretty much what we do. Not sure, and not bothered about the extent to which we may be interesting and inspiring.
The presumed hipness of neomonasticism is pretty unattractive, isn't it? A kind of mistaking shadow for substance. As best I understand it, the UK versions with which I have some acquaintance are more about breaking down sacred-secular artificial divides and encouraging better rhythms of life. Which is where the rule and the daily offices come in. I don't think that has anything to do with a kind of self-conscious set-apartness.
This thing about daily rhythms is interesting. I've spent some time on Lindisfarne, which is a tidal island and was home during the first millennium in the UK of a monastic community which was also a missionary community. For the majority of the time, the island is connected to the mainland. People cross the causeway in both directions, for trade and tourism, and it is a busy workaday place. Then the tide comes in, the causeway closes, and the inhabitants, relatively few in number, have the island to themselves for a few hours. It is almost as if the place itself sighs with relief. A bit of peace and quiet, some time for tidying up, rest, reflection. Enjoying the beauty and history of the place. Very restorative.
I think the daily rhythms brought about by offices and rules are in some ways intended to mirror that. A kind of closing of the causeway for short periods every day. Some restoration of the balance which our characteristic busyness unbalances. There is something very natural and very necessary about that, once one has experienced it, but the very busyness of much of our modern world makes it seem somehow artificial and forced even to try.
I think we forget, very easily, the importance of finding stopping places, where we can just be. It is worth trying to find them again, and find them every day.
[ 29. December 2013, 08:30: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
The Community for Reconciliation isn't URC and yet it is and it may or may not fulfil your brief.
Thanks for reminding me of this place. I've been there before, but never really thought about its philosophy. I might try to pop back again some time.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Living in an area with a large Amish community and having gotten to know a number of Amish people fairly well, it also strikes me that their Ordnung, their community Rule (and each community has its own variations regarding dress, engagement with technology, etc.), has many similarities to a monastic Rule...
Yes and no. As practiced among the Old Order and Amish, the Community Rule, however that is defined, is there simply for the sake of maintaining the cohesion of the community. With it, there is peacefulness and an ability to work together for the common goal of living. That's why, when you speak to somebody maintaining that rule, they do not codify the rules as God given - they see them as a way to maintain the group. That's why when a change happens, its not considered earth shattering theologically wise. And why there are over 600 different Mennonite and Amish groups in North America alone.
Monasticism, AFAIK, is more concerned with praising God through a set apart life. People on here will know far better then me, but from what I've read, monastic rules are considered God inspired.
Amish and Old Order do not set themselves apart; they maintain a community rule that separates them.
Its a subtle difference.
--------------------
I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement
© Ship of Fools 2016
UBB.classicTM
6.5.0
|
|
|
|
|
| |
 |
|
|
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
