Ship of Fools: Tips for Clergy during this Christmas

Thread: Tips for Clergy during this Christmas Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on :

I found this article interesting:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/the-trials-and-triumphs-of-church-clergy-at-christmas-1.2468903

The audio commentary includes some anecdotes like:

1) The Christmas service where the organist played the wrong setting of "O Little Town of Bethlehem." The rector actually stopped the organist mid playing to get him to change it.

2) Standing your ground when two members of the Flower Guild argue over the Christmas flowers is not a bad thing to do.

How do Clergy handle the Christmas stress? I'm personally interested because this time, next year, I might be working on the 24th and 25th (God willing, and the Bishop willing [Razz]

)

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

I've read the article but not listened to the programme. I think it's the "trying to handle sentimental aspirations" more than anything else - Christmas is invested with so many memories and traditions that and people do, indeed, want it to be "like it was in 1973".

Yet we cannot baptise that point of view, and not just because we know it is impossible. For Christian leaders are surely duty-bound, even at Christmas, to lead our people in pilgrimage and that can involve "unsettling" them. Clearly one must do that with sensitivity - hopefully clergy, over time, build up a certain "credit" with their congregations which they can "spend" in being a bit different.

The biggest problem, I have always found, is music - not only the question of "traditional carols" vs. less-familiar material, but also trying to eliminate well-loved carols which are not true to the Bible story. One year I succumbed (it was my last year in that Church) - I included all the carols that the "once-a-year" folk wanted. They were all delighted and I felt I had betrayed my soul.

On a different point, the sheer amount of work and disruption involved in "doing" Christmas - whether that be in decorating the church, preparing music or cooking lunches for the old folk - inevitably creates stress. One year I lost two good church members because of the fuss involved in re-siting a Christmas tree.

[ 23. December 2013, 07:17: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

Watch Rev?

Particularly re Midnight Mass.

Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :

Thank everyone, preach the incarnation and grow a thick skin.

Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :

I think that it important not to fall into the trap of "there will be lots of people at the services, so we must preach the gospel and challenge people."

If you have lots of infrequent attenders and visitors, don't drive them away. Make them think "this was really nice, perhaps I should come more often." So give them (most of) what they want - the familiar carols and traditional readings. As clergy, that brings a bonus for you too, in that instead of having people exit the church with barely a smile, you'll have complete strangers stop and congratulate you on the service. A little bit of praise is nice from time to time.

Decide in advance which battles you really want to fight with the choir, organist, flower arrangers etc. You can't fight them all so choose your battle grounds carefully.

Remember that once you hit Advent 4 (if not before) you will be swept along by all the events and won't have a moment to think or prepare. So get all your services and sermons planned and printed in advance, so that you just have to pick up the relevant pile of papers and stagger to the church (or the school, or...).

Expect the unexpected. At some point, something will go wrong. Someone will fail to appear to do the thing they have been asked to do; the heating will have been incorrectly set; the duplicator will break down or else someone will only do half the order of service. Don't get too freaked - learn to breathe deeply, smile and just get on with things.

And don't plan anything for Christmas Day after the services. NOTHING. That's the time to collapse in a heap and sleep.

And remember the thick skin (why do church members regard Christmas as THE time to tell you what you've done wrong?)

Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
I think that it important not to fall into the trap of "there will be lots of people at the services, so we must preach the gospel and challenge people."

If you have lots of infrequent attenders and visitors, don't drive them away.

You think that's what the gospel does? Really?

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:

quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
I think that it important not to fall into the trap of "there will be lots of people at the services, so we must preach the gospel and challenge people."

If you have lots of infrequent attenders and visitors, don't drive them away.
You think that's what the gospel does? Really?

If you call people to repentance before they have belief then, yes, you will drive them away.

Posted by andras (# 2065) on :

Scene: University College Chapel - very much on the High Church side of things.

Event: A very traditional Nine Lessons and Carols (utterly gorgeous, as it turned out, with wonderful choral and congregational singing).

Member of congregation (sotto voce to his wife while waiting for the service to begin): I always forget just how boring this service is.

What can anyone do against this sort of attitude? If there had been a convenient wall nearby I'd have knocked my head on it - or possibly his!

Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:

quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:

quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
I think that it important not to fall into the trap of "there will be lots of people at the services, so we must preach the gospel and challenge people."

If you have lots of infrequent attenders and visitors, don't drive them away.
You think that's what the gospel does? Really?
If you call people to repentance before they have belief then, yes, you will drive them away.

Nonsense. Repentance and faith are two sides of the same coin, two aspects of the same spiritual reality: turning from sin and turning to Christ.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by andras:
Scene: University College Chapel - very much on the High Church side of things.

Event: A very traditional Nine Lessons and Carols (utterly gorgeous, as it turned out, with wonderful choral and congregational singing).

Member of congregation (sotto voce to his wife while waiting for the service to begin): I always forget just how boring this service is.

What can anyone do against this sort of attitude?

Accept that not everyone finds the same things engaging that you do? It's really no different to asking "how can you possibly not love football!?!"

[ 23. December 2013, 11:37: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by andras:

What can anyone do against this sort of attitude? If there had been a convenient wall nearby I'd have knocked my head on it - or possibly his!

You don't need to do anything - one person's 'utterly gorgeous' is anothers 'deathly boring'.

I love nothing better than a walk round the reservoir for an hour or so, even today - rainy cold and very muddy. Others would disagree strongly. Should I say they have a 'dreadful attitude'?

Not at all - each to their own.

In fact, maybe it's your attitude which needs a bit of work?

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Mind, Boogie, it's symptomatic of one of the problems that I've hinted at (with swears) in the Decline of Western Church thread - I think many of those on the inside don't know how dull and weird the whole thing looks from the outside.

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

I've yet to find an organist who shares my love of The Holly and the Ivy. The first one had never heard of it. The second more or less humored me. The current one will have nothing to do with it. You would think a song that mentions the "playing of the merry organ" and the "sweet singing of the choir" would be favorite of church musicians.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

It's a bit of a bugger to play.

Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :

Do nothing except what you have to. (and what your significant other tells you apparently).

Fly Safe, Pyx_e

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:

quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
I think that it important not to fall into the trap of "there will be lots of people at the services, so we must preach the gospel and challenge people."

If you have lots of infrequent attenders and visitors, don't drive them away.
You think that's what the gospel does? Really?

It depends what "preach the Gospel" means. If it has the implication "agree with us or go to Hell", then yes, it is a turnoff. Not only is it a threat, but if your audience don't believe in Hell, it's an empty threat too.

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
I've yet to find an organist who shares my love of The Holly and the Ivy. The first one had never heard of it. The second more or less humored me. The current one will have nothing to do with it. You would think a song that mentions the "playing of the merry organ" and the "sweet singing of the choir" would be favorite of church musicians.

The traditional one or the June Nixon setting?

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Thank everyone, preach the incarnation and grow a thick skin.

This. Absolutely this.

And collaborate wherever and whenever you have people to collaborate with. Give the skilled, talented and prayerful people around you a full chance to show what they can do. Accept the gift of their ministries.

I am so blessed to work with an extraordinary and diverse team of chaplains - paid and voluntary, lay and clergy, ecumenical and multifaith. The run-up to Christmas is extremely busy, because the secular organisation we work for barely pauses for breath, while we're doing the "Christmassy stuff" that's expected of us and make sure from our point of view that it's very definitely all about the Incarnation. But every one of the team works hard, people's skills complement each other, and because of that everything gets done.

Posted by Poppy (# 2000) on :

The thing I find weird is that people as the exit the building after a great carol service; choir were in tune, candles made the cavernous church look lovely, the favourite congregational carols were sung with gusto, and then the unchurched won't look me in the eye as they leave. I'm happily saying 'take care it's slippy out there' or 'Good Evening' and I'm completely ignored. I may as well be invisible.

Same happens at funerals - well not the carols and candles bit but the being completely ignored by a significant number of the congregation.

Which is odd really.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Poppy:
... the unchurched won't look me in the eye as they leave. I'm happily saying 'take care it's slippy out there' or 'Good Evening' and I'm completely ignored. I may as well be invisible.

Same happens at funerals - well not the carols and candles bit but the being completely ignored by a significant number of the congregation.

Which is odd really.

No, because they're probably convinced that if they make eye contact you'll start talking about Jesus and try to convert them and push them to commit to coming regularly. There is a lot of anger out there at that side of Christianity; I've never tried to convert anyone in my life but I find I can't even mention religion without people getting immediately, and unjustifiably defensive. (So I don't.) The "lunatic fringe" and those street preachers who bawl out messages about either loving Jesus or burning in Hell are, unfortunately, often pretty much the only exposure to Christianity many people get.

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
I've yet to find an organist who shares my love of The Holly and the Ivy. The first one had never heard of it. The second more or less humored me. The current one will have nothing to do with it. You would think a song that mentions the "playing of the merry organ" and the "sweet singing of the choir" would be favorite of church musicians.
The traditional one or the June Nixon setting?

The fast one...

Posted by andras (# 2065) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:
Originally posted by andras:

What can anyone do against this sort of attitude? If there had been a convenient wall nearby I'd have knocked my head on it - or possibly his!
You don't need to do anything - one person's 'utterly gorgeous' is anothers 'deathly boring'.

I love nothing better than a walk round the reservoir for an hour or so, even today - rainy cold and very muddy. Others would disagree strongly. Should I say they have a 'dreadful attitude'?

Not at all - each to their own.

In fact, maybe it's your attitude which needs a bit of work?

Well, yes, maybe - I'll willingly admit that some things are like Marmite - you love it or you hate it. But then, since the person in question only comes once in a blue moon, I'd have to ask why he chose to come to something he clearly hated; and, knowing his wife quite well, I'm quite certain she wouldn't have pressured him to come.

I suppose that I'd sort of assumed that people who come to carol services and almost nothing else must like carols - the music, the atmosphere, the readings, whatever; clearly I'm wrong!

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:
Originally posted by andras:
Scene: University College Chapel - very much on the High Church side of things.

Event: A very traditional Nine Lessons and Carols (utterly gorgeous, as it turned out, with wonderful choral and congregational singing).

Member of congregation (sotto voce to his wife while waiting for the service to begin): I always forget just how boring this service is.

What can anyone do against this sort of attitude?
Accept that not everyone finds the same things engaging that you do? It's really no different to asking "how can you possibly not love football!?!"

Well put

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar
I've yet to find an organist who shares my love of The Holly and the Ivy. The first one had never heard of it. The second more or less humored me. The current one will have nothing to do with it. You would think a song that mentions the "playing of the merry organ" and the "sweet singing of the choir" would be favorite of church musicians.

Even though I like that carol, I think your organists have a point. I don't think it goes well on the organ. If you want to get it in, and have a band/mini-orchestra that is looking for an opportunity to get involved, try and get them to do it.

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Poppy:
....the unchurched won't look me in the eye as they leave. I'm happily saying 'take care it's slippy out there' or 'Good Evening' and I'm completely ignored. I may as well be invisible.

Same happens at funerals - well not the carols and candles bit but the being completely ignored by a significant number of the congregation.

By doing this these folk are indirectly saying -- yes, I've come to Church , yes I might even have got something out of it , but Hey, hands off my soul , it's not up for grabs.

A perfectly normal human response . I cast my mind back to being unchurched myself before the age of 41. Nevertheless hard for a church leader to take I'm sure.

Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Mind, Boogie, it's symptomatic of one of the problems that I've hinted at (with swears) in the Decline of Western Church thread - I think many of those on the inside don't know how dull and weird the whole thing looks from the outside.

Just chiming in to say that The Nine Lessons service is the one that I am least likely to attend. It is all about the performance and virtually nothing about the Incarnation, despite the reading of the boringly-familiar lessons. What's the point, apart from entertainment?

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

A lot of the no-eye-contact, don't-talk-to-me thing is just being deathly shy. That's particularly hard to get over when you're an infrequent or brand new attender.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
The Nine Lessons service is the one that I am least likely to attend. It is all about the performance and virtually nothing about the Incarnation, despite the reading of the boringly-familiar lessons. What's the point, apart from entertainment?

We only have Seven lessons (not sure why, but it's tradition); however I insist on including a couple of brief reflections or poems and a short sermon as I do want to get people to think a bit (although it's not the time for a Gospel rant).

Generally this goes down quite well.

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

quote:
Originally posted by andras:
Scene: University College Chapel - very much on the High Church side of things.

Event: A very traditional Nine Lessons and Carols (utterly gorgeous, as it turned out, with wonderful choral and congregational singing).

Member of congregation (sotto voce to his wife while waiting for the service to begin): I always forget just how boring this service is.

What can anyone do against this sort of attitude? If there had been a convenient wall nearby I'd have knocked my head on it - or possibly his!

We share a Methodist Church. Sunday 15th was the Salvation Army's carol service - no liturgy, only 3 readings from Luke, a children's talk and traditional carols, though not just the usual suspects - we had What child is this, for example. The 'modern' carol was A Starry Night.
Noisy in parts, reverent in others, friendly and warm.

Last night was a very wordy Methodist 9-lessons-and-carols-lite with (just) 7 carols and the entire Nativity from Mt and Mk PLUS a 'humourous' prose reading about Joseph that only the reader's wife found amusing.

Before it had even started I got a complaint from one of our SA members. I turned on her and in all seriousness called her 'Sister Miss-a-Blessing' - and the kind of person who says, Bless me if you dare!'

She apologised. But only because I hugged her about 5 minutes later.

At the end of the service that was conduced with no introductions to anything - and therefore no verbal contact between pulpit and congregation - and which included a 15 minutes sermon (!! - in a carol service??) I went up to the poor woman and told her I had been more bored than she said she was going to be.

No wonder churches are half empty with only the long-suffering faithful in them.

[ 23. December 2013, 23:38: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]

Posted by Hairy Biker (# 12086) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Poppy:
The thing I find weird is that people as the exit the building after a great carol service; choir were in tune, candles made the cavernous church look lovely, the favourite congregational carols were sung with gusto, and then the unchurched won't look me in the eye as they leave. I'm happily saying 'take care it's slippy out there' or 'Good Evening' and I'm completely ignored. I may as well be invisible.

Same happens at funerals - well not the carols and candles bit but the being completely ignored by a significant number of the congregation.

Which is odd really.

not at all odd. They simply don't know what's expected of them, so they don't do anything. I've been going to church for almost 20 years and I still don't know what to say to vicars when I leave after the service.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

I fail to see why a carol service shouldn't have a sermon - it is possible for sermons to be good, you know! Midnight Mass will have a sermon but is you know, rather popular....

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
I've been going to church for almost 20 years and I still don't know what to say to vicars when I leave after the service.

In a strange place, I say "Good Morning, Father!" and shake his hand. At home, our priest and I will usually exchange a few words about the children, holiday plans etc.

Posted by Haydee (# 14734) on :

I find 'thank you' generally works quite well.

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Last night was a very wordy Methodist 9-lessons-and-carols-lite with (just) 7 carols and the entire Nativity from Mt and Mk PLUS a 'humourous' prose reading about Joseph that only the reader's wife found amusing.

How fascinating! Which bits of Mark's story of the Nativity did the service include? [Big Grin]

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seasick:

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Last night was a very wordy Methodist 9-lessons-and-carols-lite with (just) 7 carols and the entire Nativity from Mt and Mk PLUS a 'humourous' prose reading about Joseph that only the reader's wife found amusing.
How fascinating! Which bits of Mark's story of the Nativity did the service include?

LOL woops! [Yipee]

Well, Methodists are very creative.
Please replace the M with an L.

To be fair, I did enjoy the carol service; it's nice to listen to the majority of the story thoughtfully read and you can't go wrong with the carols at all - except when some of them are changed to make them PC.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
...a 15 minutes sermon (!! - in a carol service??)

You were lucky. The carol service I went to at my in-laws church included a 45-minute fundie-evangelic sermon, featuring altar call and prayer for healing.

One dreads to think what their normal services are like...

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I fail to see why a carol service shouldn't have a sermon - it is possible for sermons to be good, you know! Midnight Mass will have a sermon but is you know, rather popular....

A sermon is compulsory at Midnight Mass because it is a solemnity.

Sermons are not compulsory and seldom necessary at a Service of the Word. Let the Word speak for itself.

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
I've been going to church for almost 20 years and I still don't know what to say to vicars when I leave after the service.
In a strange place, I say "Good Morning, Father!" and shake his hand. At home, our priest and I will usually exchange a few words about the children, holiday plans etc.

"Lovely sermon vicar," seems to be the norm - whether it has been or not.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

I like that episode of Father Ted:

Parishioner: And that Sermon? What the feck was it about?
Fr Ted: Well, it was...
[Parishioner ignores him, shakes his head and walks off muttering in despair]

Posted by Gildas (# 525) on :

quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Thank everyone, preach the incarnation and grow a thick skin.

This generally works on the other 364 days as well, in my experience.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Real advice: Put your Christmas service times up on the noticeboard and/or your website. Should be obvious, but clearly isn't to the Rector in my parents' parish.

Posted by Dogwalker (# 14135) on :

To add to what Karl said: after you post the service times on the noticeboard, website, or wherever, get SOMEONE ELSE to check your work.

I found about a week ago that I'd put the wrong service time on the parish website. It's the least attended Christmas service, the website has been correct for several days, and I'm still worried someone will show up an hour early and be frustrated.

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