Ship of Fools: Father Christmas doesn't exist ?

Thread: Father Christmas doesn't exist ? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

Before next Xmas a member of my extended family has the task of explaining to her 11 yr old son that there isn't a real Father Christmas . Not easy when you've played alone with the idea that he does exist for their entire life.

Apparently it's the done thing to explode the myth before they get to secondary school least they get teased over it .

There are tales going around that kids can take it quite badly . Maybe we should think twice about putting a glass of sherry , and carrot for the reindeer, out on Christmas night if future heartbreak is to be avoided.

[ 24. December 2013, 11:40: Message edited by: rolyn ]

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Most kids I know have figured out whilst still in single figures that there's no way a single man can get round the whole world in one night.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

Of course he doesn't exist. Sinterklaas does.

Posted by the giant cheeseburger (# 10942) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Most kids I know have figured out whilst still in single figures that there's no way a single man can get round the whole world in one night.

My guess is that most kids get it around the 6-8 age range, and that parents who have a good peer support network of other parents also know that is the case.

The majority of those kids are smart enough to figure out it is in their best interests (from a materialistic POV) to keep that from their parents and continue playing along with the game.

Eldest siblings get a free pass from having to try and keep the parents from knowing. Parental bribery meant I was still getting stuff from Father Christmas until I was 13, unfortunately it stopped when the youngest of my two sisters was told at age four by the elder of the two!

quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Before next Xmas a member of my extended family has the task of explaining to her 11 yr old son that there isn't a real Father Christmas . Not easy when you've played alone with the idea that he does exist for their entire life.

They let him get to eleven before realising that, and then decided to put it off another year anyway?

The time to have that talk is next week, before school goes back and he runs the risk of a conversation along the lines of…

quote:
"Father Christmas got me a nerf gun, that's so cool."
"You still believe in Father Christmas

…and before it slips from the front shelf of the brain and Christmas 2014 starts approaching, bringing plentiful opportunities for peers to do the job..

quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Apparently it's the done thing to explode the myth before they get to secondary school least they get teased over it .

There are tales going around that kids can take it quite badly .

I hate to break this to you, but any kid who is gullible enough to genuinely believe in Father Christmas at age 11 is going to cop it badly in the middle-secondary school years regardless of when that balloon is popped.

Hopefully for his sake he did actually figure it out a while back along with all his peers and was playing along with the joke well enough to con the parents into thinking it was real. If it is real, the parents need to get some real life help with stimulating the development of critical thinking processes and building emotional resilience, otherwise he's in for a rough time over the coming years.

Posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger (# 8891) on :

I'm wondering if it's the child or the parents who need the baloon popping....

Given my mum's reaction when I stocped believing in Father Christmas (the telling off of my life), I'm of the opinion she'd have been happy for me to go on believing for many more years (I was about 7 or 8 at the time)...

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:

Hopefully for his sake he did actually figure it out a while back along with all his peers and was playing along with the joke well enough to con the parents into thinking it was real. If it is real, the parents need to get some real life help with stimulating the development of critical thinking processes and building emotional resilience, otherwise he's in for a rough time over the coming years.

This.

Especially the 'critical thinking' bit. He'll be incredibly susceptible to adverts and peer pressure otherwise.

Posted by Gildas (# 525) on :

Oh, dear God, Father Christmas.

I grew up thinking that Father Christmas is an elaborate game played between children and parents and that the point is to find out that your parents are tricking you. And that any normal child is going to be hip to the whole "it's your dad thing" before they get through key stage two.

Years later, I am a Curate taking a confirmation class in a C of E school. There is a room full of bright year sixers (i.e. 10 - 11). One of them asks if Father Christmas exists. This is obviously a QTWTAIN, so I say "Actually no, but don't tell mum and dad because they will be terribly disappointed". The children all nod sagely and exchange significant glances. Gotcha. Except one who, until that point had not suspected a thing and goes home and tells mum. Who writes to the Bishop demanding that I be suspended from my ministry forthwith. Both the headteacher and my incumbent asked me to apologise, which I did and my apology was rejected in no uncertain terms. Apparently mum is now a fully paid up Dicky Dawkins atheist as a result of my intervention. Clearly this is a woman who thinks that irony is like goldy or silvery except made of iron.

I ran this past the two teachers in my family whose advice was; in future don't touch Santa with a bargepole but otherwise we think you can file that under massive overreaction. But apparently there are parents who wish to shield their offspring from whole going mad from the revelation bit. My sister has acquaintances who pride themselves on getting their kids to the age of 14 without twigging that the whole thing is made up. These people, if I may say so, need rather more robust examples of parenting to model themselves on. Brutus the Elder springs to mind.

My own daughter is six and is deeply suspicious of the tooth fairy racket on the grounds that we don't pay as much as some of the other parents. I am so proud.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gildas:
Oh, dear God, Father Christmas.

I confused the two of them myself, what with the beard, the underlying implausibility and the suspicion that they were an invention by parents to make you behave yourself.

The over-reaction you describe amazes me; I mean, if someone had let the cat out of the bag a bit earlier than I'd have liked with mine, it'd have been something to chunter about at beer o'clock, but as for actually complaining? Some people clearly don't have enough to occupy themselves (he says, posting on a bulletin board...)

[ 24. December 2013, 14:16: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

Santa never caused that much angst in my home. My kids all began to suspect around age 6 or 7. The first time they asked if Santa was real, I would ask, "do you really want to know?". They all said "no" for at least a year. When the "No" became "yes" I would simply tell them a bit about St. Nicholas (w/ or w/o the notorious nose-punching incident, depending on my current level of snarky humor). Then we'd explain that "Santa" is what we call someone who gives a gift anonymously, w/o seeking anything in return. We would continue the stockings afterwards, because the point of Santa was not some elaborate ruse, but the joy of giving a gift anonymously. Except now the kids were in on it, so they could join the fun-- giving little anonymous gifts to others. (The first Christmas my youngest son "knew" we each found a tiny pinecone in our stocking).

[ 24. December 2013, 14:17: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gildas:
Both the headteacher and my incumbent asked me to apologise, which I did and my apology was rejected in no uncertain terms. Apparently mum is now a fully paid up Dicky Dawkins atheist as a result of my intervention. Clearly this is a woman who thinks that irony is like goldy or silvery except made of iron.

The head teacher and your incumbent were wrong, and so was the bishop for not using his episcopal authority to tell the mother to grow up. If she hadn't been indulged, perhaps her soul would not be as lost and far from home as it now sounds as though it is.

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
They let him get to eleven before realising that, and then decided to put it off another year anyway?

I have to make a correction to the OP.

This lad is in fact 10 , birthday next summer and starts full time secondary in September . He already goes to secondary for maths lessons as he's exceptionally bright.
I guess he'll be fine , no doubt having the customary baptism of fire with the bigger lads pretty quickly .

My partner , (who grandson he is) , does think he's a tiny bit autistic or something of the like . His mother's had plenty of experience with other kids and parents, as she is a professional children-minder.

Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :

What? He doesn't exist? Prove it!

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

Never used the Father Christmas stuff with mine.

Why would I want to tell them something and then admit later I'd been lying?

Some interesting conversations with other parents though ...

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

Or ...

Put him on to NORAD - very convincing!

[Smile]

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

He doesn't exist? Bullshit!

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gildas:
Years later, I am a Curate taking a confirmation class in a C of E school. There is a room full of bright year sixers (i.e. 10 - 11). One of them asks if Father Christmas exists. This is obviously a QTWTAIN, so I say "Actually no

Something similar happened top a friend of mine as reported here. but the bishop wasn't involved. Plus, my friend retires om December 31st.

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
He doesn't exist? Bullshit!

Posted by EtymologicalEvangelical (# 15091) on :

I must admit that I could not bring myself to lie to my four children. What other parents do is their business, but I (and Mrs EE) just could not look into the eyes of innocence and trust and blatantly spin a yarn, knowing that the owners of those eyes of innocence and trust would believe it to be true.

And then to have to disabuse them of this bullshit so many years later...

... unthinkable.

I must say that our offspring don't really seem the worse for wear for having had this "truth treatment"!

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

Of course,Santa exists.He exists in each one of us when we think kindly of others,particularly at Christmas time. We are privileged to be able to represent him when we give gifts to others to express in a tangible fashion the love which we have for them - a love like that of the good bishop Saint Nicholas for those who were less fortunate than himself.
Of course again children cannot always understand the symbolism and have to be told the story in a very simple way.

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

Perhaps the best way to explode the myth would be to "accidentally" let him see them filling the stocking or delivering the stocking to the foot of his bed. Other subtle tricks could be to leave price tags on some of the gifts, especially if they were bought from a local store or to "accidentally" leave one or two gifts unwrapped lying around the house. This way, they can let him work it out for himself rather than have to break the news to him, but as others have said, he may have already worked it out but doesn't feel able to say anything. If he catches his parents in the act, then he'll feel more comfortable talking about it.

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Or ...

Put him on to NORAD - very convincing!

Apparently he loves that Boogie .

And of course sucking in all that knowledge about Global geography in the process [Ultra confused]

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :

I've never told either of mine that he doesn't exist. 15 and 11 and they still get the odd present labelled up "from Santa". I've never asked but I'm pretty sure that both of them know Santa doesn't really exist.

They are bright kids and they know how it really works, so why not all play along with a lovely bit of makebelieve? Why do we have to deny or ridicule small innocent bits of pleasure in this dismall world?

Santa is also a cultural tradition, so why not indulge? Small children love it and to not allow them that little bit of fantasy seems to me to be unneccessarily letting in a cold blast of reality. Older children can certainly still go along with the fantasy.

Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :

You can buy a proper Saint Nicholas chocolate man here, properly with mitre and crosier (sorry, page in German). That will ease the shock... of seeing this (apparently breaking news from Poland).

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I've never told either of mine that he doesn't exist. 15 and 11 and they still get the odd present labelled up "from Santa". I've never asked but I'm pretty sure that both of them know Santa doesn't really exist.

They are bright kids and they know how it really works, so why not all play along with a lovely bit of makebelieve? Why do we have to deny or ridicule small innocent bits of pleasure in this dismall world?

That's pretty much how it worked in my family. I think it was much the same for most of my friends too.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

It really is an odd systematic lie we tell children isn't it? I suppose there are others, like people are basically kind and good*.

*Present company excepted of course.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

Some years ago I worked in a building that was near a bus station. One afternoon, I clearly heard over the tannoy the words "Would Father Christmas please go to the enquiry desk".

Posted by que sais-je (# 17185) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
It really is an odd systematic lie we tell children isn't it? I suppose there are others, like people are basically kind and good

Now I'm worrying about the lies they told me that I haven't found out.

Posted by Seabird (# 17817) on :

I remember being very young and waking up as my parents where leaving my presents at the bottom of my bed. I said I thought Father Christmas brought presents, they told me he delivered the gifts that came from far away like my aunt and uncle, so for a few years I thought he worked for the post office he had a red coat, they had a red vans and they both delivered things so to a young child it seemed straightforward.

Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :

quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Before next Xmas a member of my extended family has the task of explaining to her 11 yr old son that there isn't a real Father Christmas . Not easy when you've played alone with the idea that he does exist for their entire life.

Apparently it's the done thing to explode the myth before they get to secondary school least they get teased over it .

There are tales going around that kids can take it quite badly . Maybe we should think twice about putting a glass of sherry , and carrot for the reindeer, out on Christmas night if future heartbreak is to be avoided.

There is no way to escape hearing other people talk about there being no Father Christmas. I'm willing to believe the son in question has already heard such things, especially being 11.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

Wow, I just told this story on Facebook--

First item I was confronted with this issue I was backed into a corner by a group of 4-5 8 year olds who basically said, "Kelly, we know we can trust you. " (gaaahh) "So tell us, really is there a real Santa?"

I took a deep breath-- again,they had stated they trusted me, but I didn't want to wreck anybody's Christmas. So I said, "This is only my opinion, and you are free to believe anything you want. But I think it's more like a club-- a Santa club. If you like making kids happy and giving presents to people you can be part of that club. Some people even dress up as Santa, and that is like a uniform for the club. So yeah, I believe there is a Santa, but Santa is a lot of people."

Part of this comes from being the granddaughter of someone who "wore the uniform"-- every year, my grandfather would put on his Santa outfit and put on shows for family and friends. I think I first caught him changing when I was about three. I never grew out of Santa, but I never had any illusions about him, either.

Posted by Try (# 4951) on :

I'm a member of the "figured it out on my own but did not tell my parents" club. In my parent's household Santa stopped bringing presents when we turned 18 but still fills stockings with little gifts and food.

Posted by Hairy Biker (# 12086) on :

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
I must admit that I could not bring myself to lie to my four children. What other parents do is their business, but I (and Mrs EE) just could not look into the eyes of innocence and trust and blatantly spin a yarn, knowing that the owners of those eyes of innocence and trust would believe it to be true.

It's not lies for heaven's sake! It's a bit of fun. I pity your children missing out on this tradition - not to mention the late night antics you've denied yourselves.

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

My folks let us in on the secret early on. They addressed each other's packages to Santa and Mrs. Santa, and signed the ones to my brother and me from Santa and Mrs. Santa. I don't remember being traumatized.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Wow, I just told this story on Facebook--

First item I was confronted with this issue I was backed into a corner by a group of 4-5 8 year olds who basically said, "Kelly, we know we can trust you. " (gaaahh) "So tell us, really is there a real Santa?"

I took a deep breath-- again,they had stated they trusted me, but I didn't want to wreck anybody's Christmas. So I said, "This is only my opinion, and you are free to believe anything you want. But I think it's more like a club-- a Santa club. If you like making kids happy and giving presents to people you can be part of that club. Some people even dress up as Santa, and that is like a uniform for the club. So yeah, I believe there is a Santa, but Santa is a lot of people."

Part of this comes from being the granddaughter of someone who "wore the uniform"-- every year, my grandfather would put on his Santa outfit and put on shows for family and friends. I think I first caught him changing when I was about three. I never grew out of Santa, but I never had any illusions about him, either.

Not unlike the version I told my kids upthread (that Santa is our name for giving presents anonymously, w/o looking to receive anything in return). I like the special tweaks you added-- just adds to the fun. None of my kids were every disappointed-- they were always excited to join the "club" of givers.

Posted by Eliab (# 9153) on :

My daughter (now 6) disbelieved in Santa last year (under her elder brother's influence). This year, she claimed to believe in him. With every appearance of sincerity.

Until late this afternoon when she took me aside for a conspiratorial chat, and with many a knowing look asked me that if Santa happened to be in a hurry this year, and 'left the presents on our roof' for me to deliver, could I please do this in disguise so that it will fool her (still sceptical) brother if he is still awake?

She's worked out not only that it is to her advantage to continue the charade, but also that it gives her the chance of putting one over on my son. I can't help but feel a little ambivalent about a tradition that encourages this sort of duplicity. My kids need encouragement to be devious about as much as they need encouragement to eat ice cream.

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Try:
I'm a member of the "figured it out on my own but did not tell my parents" club. In my parent's household Santa stopped bringing presents when we turned 18 but still fills stockings with little gifts and food.

He stopped when you were 18? Father Christmas continued to deliver me presents right up until my mother died 2 years ago [Big Grin]

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

I am coming to the conclusion the West is a very impoverished culture with its bi-modal approach to everything. Things either exist or they do not. Well I am sorry but I understoid at aged three that existence took many forms. In particular the way Santa existed was "PRETEND" which was the class that a lot of cultural myths fell into. These exist in the sense that they are part of the ritual of life and have tangible results, in other words they are the creation of our society. They seem to come in two forms, those who have ritual associated with them e.g. Santa Claus, tooth fairy and those that act as a warning to keep people out of danger when you do not want to give complex explanations e.g. Jack Frost. They often serve a secondary role in that they provide mythological types that help us develop our imaginative repertoir.

Jengie

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

As kids we never had the Santa routine from our parents , I think they were too down to earth for that.
We did though have the village Christmas party where an old guy used to dress up in a red robe and hand out pressies . Scared the crap out of some of us.

Despite all this the unique magic of Christmas Night did dwell in me up to the teenage years . Which I suppose is the time when we really begin to shed our skin where the innocence of childhood is concerned .

Posted by Tortuf (# 3784) on :

One of my kids once announced that God and Santa were brothers.

At the time my thought was "Isn't that cute." Now, I think he was right. God is love. Santa practices the expression of God's love by giving of himself to others. Santa doesn't go to Walmart to buy toys. Santa and his elves spend a year hand making toys just so children around the world can find joy. There is no desire for accolades because of the gifts, just the act of giving. If that is not a selfless expression of love for humankind I don't know what could ever be an expression of selfless love.

We need more role models of how to live out God's love, not fewer. So, my advice is not to tell kids Father Christmas doesn't exist. My advice is to tell your kids that Santa does exist every time we give of ourselves without expectation of reward just because it is a good thing to do.

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :

You mean he doesn't exist? I don't have to stay awake all night waiting for the reindeer to land on the roof any more? Does this mean I'm no longer on a naughty/nice list? Somehow all the fun has gone out of life for kids if they are not allowed to fantasise. [Waterworks]

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :

I think I always knew Father Christmas was a game. We definitely grew up with Raymond Briggs.

Posted by The Rogue (# 2275) on :

We've always played the Santa game. And I mean game. Last Christmas the youngest Rogueling (ten) said she didn't believe and I suspect that she had decided that a year or so before but wanted to still believe. She was well aware that there are unbelievers at school and in the family. Santa still gets his beer and mince pie, though.

I hate the naughty or nice bit.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Rogue:

I hate the naughty or nice bit.

We just leave that our. Santa is anytime you're giving gifts anonymously, w/o looking for recognition or reciprocation. The "naughty or nice" bit spoils that.

Posted by Polly Plummer (# 13354) on :

We never told our kids about Father Christmas so they didn't have anything to be disappointed about. They enjoyed Christmas just as much as everyone else. They knew other children talked about him and that it was a nice story. (My parents thought we were unkind not to tell the traditional fibs to them.)

The kids don't seem particularly maladjusted now, though I feel uncomfortable that my DIL makes a big fuss about him wtih the grandchildren. So far I've managed not to say anything about him to, or in front of, the grandkids.

Posted by k-mann (# 8490) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
I'm wondering if it's the child or the parents who need the baloon popping....

Yep. I’m not married, and neither do I have kids, but I used to be a kid. Based on experience, I would be very, very surprised if a 11 year old kid doesn’t understand that Father Christmas isn’t real. I have heard of kids who themselves ‘played along,’ because they didn’t want to spoil the fun (of playing Father Christmas) for their father. (And, as others here have pointed out, to exploit the situation.)

quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
There are tales going around that kids can take it quite badly . Maybe we should think twice about putting a glass of sherry , and carrot for the reindeer, out on Christmas night if future heartbreak is to be avoided.

There can, of course, be some kids who might believe in Father Christmas, and take the revelation of his non-existence badly, but I highly doubt that this is very common. And especially not at the age of 11. I know of no one who really believed in Father Christmas when I was growing up. That doesn’t, of course, mean that no one does, but I suspect that many of the cases are just anecdotes – a kid here and a kid there. I highly doubt that you will have to stop ‘feeding Father Christmas’ because some kid out there might believe in it. If he does, at the age of 11, he has bigger problems than that.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Before next Xmas a member of my extended family has the task of explaining to her 11 yr old son that there isn't a real Father Christmas .

If the parents ware agonising about this, how are they going to have the really difficult talk - the one where lbw is explained?

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
If the parents ware agonising about this, how are they going to have the really difficult talk - the one where lbw is explained?

The Lutheran Book of Worship?
[Confused]

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
If the parents ware agonising about this, how are they going to have the really difficult talk - the one where lbw is explained?
The Lutheran Book of Worship?

low-brow worship music?

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Rogue:
I hate the naughty or nice bit.

That's because you;re on the naughty list [Biased]

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Leg before wicket. It's a very tricky rule, and the explanation is one of the important talks in the upbringing of a child.

I'd be very surprised if an 11 yr old had not already worked out there was no Father Christmas, either by her/himself or talking with friends. My parents never had such a talk with us, nor we in turn with Dlet. We use the Episcopal Church calendar at:

http://satucket.com/lectionary/Calendar.htm

and there's an excellent entry on 6 Dec explaining a possible origin of the Santa Claus story. It may be worth giving that to the boy.

[ 26. December 2013, 03:47: Message edited by: Gee D ]

Posted by Huia (# 3473) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
If the parents ware agonising about this, how are they going to have the really difficult talk - the one where lbw is explained?
The Lutheran Book of Worship?

Leg Before Wicket -don't ask me how it works, (no one ever had that talk with me) but in cricket a batsman/woman can be sent out LBW. Personally I think cricket is less interesting than watching paint dry, but it does have some rather arcane rules.

Huia

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Most kids I know have figured out whilst still in single figures that there's no way a single man can get round the whole world in one night.

Silly ... the easter bunny and tooth fairy help him ...

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
... the really difficult talk - the one where lbw is explained?

Huia omitted to point out that this is relatively easy. If you are a batter it is not out. If you are a bowler it is out. If the umpire disagrees with you then he/she is clearly either myopic or corrupt. If he/she agrees he/she is a legend.

Posted by JeffTL (# 16722) on :

The Episcopal Clerical Directory and Crockford's tell us pretty clearly that at least in TEC and the Church of England there is no Father Christmas. There is, however, a Father Easter; he lives in New Mexico.

Posted by Galloping Granny (# 13814) on :

Gildas wrote

quote:
Except one who, until that point had not suspected a thing and goes home and tells mum. Who writes to the Bishop demanding that I be suspended from my ministry forthwith. Both the headteacher and my incumbent asked me to apologise, which I did and my apology was rejected in no uncertain terms. Apparently mum is now a fully paid up Dicky Dawkins atheist as a result of my intervention.

Comment from Puzzled Presbyterian: Does this woman assume that Anglican belief encompasses Father, Son, Spirit and Santa Claus? If you don't believe in one you don't believe in the others? The response of the incumbent, the headmaster (and the bishop?) leaves me gobsmacked.

(I do get the bit about the tooth fairy though. My kids were getting five cents, while their friends next door got fifty cents, and I reckoned that the fifty of those days was too big for a fairy to carry.)

GG

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
I am coming to the conclusion the West is a very impoverished culture with its bi-modal approach to everything. Things either exist or they do not. Well I am sorry but I understoid at aged three that existence took many forms. In particular the way Santa existed was "PRETEND" which was the class that a lot of cultural myths fell into.

Is it also the class into which religions fall?

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

I believe it is Marvin . Religion worldwide would be at far greater peace with itself by getting it's head around such a fundamental truth.

Posted by Taliesin (# 14017) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Most kids I know have figured out whilst still in single figures that there's no way a single man can get round the whole world in one night.
Silly ... the easter bunny and tooth fairy help him ...

We ask our kids to believe that God hears all the prayers of everyone in the world at the same time. And knows all our actions and even thoughts. I'd say a night's worth of present delivery is easy by comparison.
However, I've never actually known a person who was conscious of 'finding out' about Santa, people seem to go from sort of believing to sort of not by osmosis. Probably because no one I know had parents who went to ridiculous lengths to actually lie about the existence of said person.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Taliesin:
I've never actually known a person who was conscious of 'finding out' about Santa, people seem to go from sort of believing to sort of not by osmosis. Probably because no one I know had parents who went to ridiculous lengths to actually lie about the existence of said person.

Does it have to be explicit to be a lie?

Like our parents, we never mentioned Santa at home. But we did hide their presents at friend's houses 'till the kids were asleep. If friends mentioned Santa I was vague about it - I hated to say I believed in something I didn't, especially as GLE at the time.

I'm much easier going about it all now. We tracked Santa on NORAD all of Christmas eve this year (they are 25 and 27 now, no grandchildren yet) But I think any grandchildren that arrive will get the full Santa treatment!!

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

What Gildas said. A sort of verbal game, a figure of speech. Played by parents and children of maybe 5-8 years old. Younger children tend not to be linguistically sophisticated enough to play it but I think they know perfectly well that their parents do the stocking thing, but at that age you often go along with odd things your parents do, because you have nothing to compare them with.

And may God have mercy on other curates and vulnerable clergy under the care of Gildas's bishop [Disappointed]

Posted by stonespring (# 15530) on :

I was going to start my own thread about this but people here have already hinted at it so I'll post it here.

I think that telling kids that Santa Claus literally exists and then letting the kids learn that he does not predisposes kids to doubt that anything they were taught about religion is true - especially with traditional Christianity, since it involves a literal God-Man, literal historical events, and literal miracles.

If parents are firm in their belief that what the Bible says about Christ is pretty much literally true and teach that to their children but then playfully deceive their children to believe in a literal Santa - how could children not draw a comparison between the two beliefs?

As said before, Santa resembles God in so many ways. He rewards good and gives at the very least disappointment to the wicked (in some cultures, there is a "punisher" like Krampus in Austria at Christmas time that is the counterpart to the gift-giving Santa figure). He knows all of the sins and good deeds committed by all children. He can be anywhere at anytime, at least at Christmas. In movies about Santa Claus, he even talks in a moralistic and inspirational way (and often figurative) just like God does in movies.

If parents want their kids to believe in the literal truth of Christ's birth, life, death, resurrection, second coming, etc., I can't see how teaching kids to believe literally in Santa would not make them more likely to doubt the truth of what they were taught about Christianity once they learn that Santa does not literally exist.

If parents want their kids to think critically about religion and question even the literal nature of such events as the virgin birth, crucifixion, resurrection, second coming, etc., but still want their kids to join them in practicing a liberal Christianity, they are still likely to make their kids turn off to religion altogether once they realize that a literal Santa does not exist.

Even completely atheist parents shouldn't teach their kids that Santa literally exists, because I can't imagine kids not having trust in their parents damaged by the whole "there is no literal Santa" realization.

The story about a church minister being punished by parents and superiors for telling kids that Santa does not exist is very poignant. Children are bound to be even more likely to doubt anything a minister says about the literal life/death/resurrection of Christ if the minister plays along with an untruth about the literal existence of Santa.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:

Even completely atheist parents shouldn't teach their kids that Santa literally exists, because I can't imagine kids not having trust in their parents damaged by the whole "there is no literal Santa" realization.

Richard Dawkins said he doesn't tell kids that Santa doesn't exist - he says "lets think about it ... how many chimney's are in the world? ... "

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Taliesin:
I've never actually known a person who was conscious of 'finding out' about Santa, people seem to go from sort of believing to sort of not by osmosis.

I'm pretty sure that was true of my experience - though, being the youngest, it is possible also that my bastard big brother told me. Still, it seems I wasn't totally traumatised, unless I've suppressed the memory, as he is living with me bloody near a half century later.

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Richard Dawkins said he doesn't tell kids that Santa doesn't exist - he says "lets think about it ... how many chimney's are in the world? ... "

Yes, my early childhood was spent in Ghana - and the last two Christmases in Darwin ... sadly though, confirming all Professor Dawkins worst fears, I was too dumb to think of that.

Or maybe awe, mystery and excitement trumps logic. Which was my Christmas sermon this year.

Posted by Hairy Biker (# 12086) on :

quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:

I think that telling kids that Santa Claus literally exists and then letting the kids learn that he does not predisposes kids to doubt that anything they were taught about religion is true - especially with traditional Christianity, since it involves a literal God-Man, literal historical events, and literal miracles.

Both Father Christmas and traditional Christianity predate modern concepts of "literal truth". Or was your post supposed to be sarcastic?

Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:
What Gildas said. A sort of verbal game, a figure of speech. Played by parents and children of maybe 5-8 years old. Younger children tend not to be linguistically sophisticated enough to play it but I think they know perfectly well that their parents do the stocking thing, but at that age you often go along with odd things your parents do, because you have nothing to compare them with.

And may God have mercy on other curates and vulnerable clergy under the care of Gildas's bishop

I think ken's got it right. My family were not Christian, and I grew up excitedly expecting Father Christmas (not Santa!) to bring our presents. One night I saw my dad creeping in quietly to put my stuff into the pillowcase at the end of my bed, and I was so pleased that I had been right - aha! I knew it was my dad all along! but I didn't let on to my parents that I knew. My own kids were brought up as churchgoers but we all played the same game - even when they grew up I sometimes asked what they wanted Santa/Father Christmas to bring.

I can't understand the attitudes of the people in Gildas's story.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
If the parents ware agonising about this, how are they going to have the really difficult talk - the one where lbw is explained?
The Lutheran Book of Worship?

THANK YOU. I think this every freaking time i read lbw on the Ship, realize that can't be right, and desperately run through all the naughty euphemisms I know ...

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Richard Dawkins said he doesn't tell kids that Santa doesn't exist - he says "lets think about it ... how many chimney's are in the world? ... "

As a matter of curiosity, does any Shipmate know whether Richard Dawkins has children or not?

Two deep philosophical/theological questions

1. Is the lbw rule in cricket more or less difficult to explain than the off-side rule in football.

2. Are there any philosophical or theological concepts that are more difficult to explain than either of those rules.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

I spilled the beans to a Y4 class once, by comparing the Santa game to the one where the children know the teacher's first name but pretend that they don't, and the teacher knows that they know but pretends that they don't - we weren't a school that used them, and someone just had. Next day I was hauled up before the beak because of a parental complaint. I had assumed 8-year-olds had all worked it out.

Posted by k-mann (# 8490) on :

quote:
Originally posted by leo:

quote:
Originally posted by Gildas:
Years later, I am a Curate taking a confirmation class in a C of E school. There is a room full of bright year sixers (i.e. 10 - 11). One of them asks if Father Christmas exists. This is obviously a QTWTAIN, so I say "Actually no
Something similar happened top a friend of mine as reported here. but the bishop wasn't involved. Plus, my friend retires om December 31st.

This was the best part, i think:

quote:
"Some parents threatened to pull their children out of a Christmas concert at his church, St Andrew's, in protest, arguing that they would not barge into one of his services and announce that the story of Jesus was a fiction.

Tatton-Brown's slip came as he delivered his festive address to pupils. A "technical issue" meant he had to work without notes and he told them that many believed the figure of Father Christmas was based on Saint Nicholas, a fourth-century saint renowned for his secret gift-giving. …

Linzi Merritt, whose son Levi, nine, attends the school, said: "We wouldn't just walk into the church during one of his services and tell everyone there that Jesus isn't real. He's a person of authority and it's not his place to be telling the children that.

"It's the older children who have suffered the most because their parents can't really talk their way out of it like the parents of younger children can.

"Loads of kids went home crying – it has ruined Christmas for them. It wasn't a nice story for children to hear, there were lots more he could have told. Not only has he spoiled Father Christmas for them, a lot of them are now questioning the existence of the tooth fairy as well."

I never knew these folks actually believed Father Christmas was real, which is the only way these reactions could make any lick of sense. Is Santafarianism a big religion in the UK?

Posted by k-mann (# 8490) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
My folks let us in on the secret early on. They addressed each other's packages to Santa and Mrs. Santa, and signed the ones to my brother and me from Santa and Mrs. Santa. I don't remember being traumatized.

Maybe you have just repressed it… [Snigger]

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
I was going to start my own thread about this but people here have already hinted at it so I'll post it here.

I think that telling kids that Santa Claus literally exists and then letting the kids learn that he does not predisposes kids to doubt that anything they were taught about religion is true - especially with traditional Christianity, since it involves a literal God-Man, literal historical events, and literal miracles.

If parents are firm in their belief that what the Bible says about Christ is pretty much literally true and teach that to their children but then playfully deceive their children to believe in a literal Santa - how could children not draw a comparison between the two beliefs?

As said before, Santa resembles God in so many ways. He rewards good and gives at the very least disappointment to the wicked (in some cultures, there is a "punisher" like Krampus in Austria at Christmas time that is the counterpart to the gift-giving Santa figure). He knows all of the sins and good deeds committed by all children. He can be anywhere at anytime, at least at Christmas. In movies about Santa Claus, he even talks in a moralistic and inspirational way (and often figurative) just like God does in movies.

If parents want their kids to believe in the literal truth of Christ's birth, life, death, resurrection, second coming, etc., I can't see how teaching kids to believe literally in Santa would not make them more likely to doubt the truth of what they were taught about Christianity once they learn that Santa does not literally exist.

If parents want their kids to think critically about religion and question even the literal nature of such events as the virgin birth, crucifixion, resurrection, second coming, etc., but still want their kids to join them in practicing a liberal Christianity, they are still likely to make their kids turn off to religion altogether once they realize that a literal Santa does not exist.

Even completely atheist parents shouldn't teach their kids that Santa literally exists, because I can't imagine kids not having trust in their parents damaged by the whole "there is no literal Santa" realization.

The story about a church minister being punished by parents and superiors for telling kids that Santa does not exist is very poignant. Children are bound to be even more likely to doubt anything a minister says about the literal life/death/resurrection of Christ if the minister plays along with an untruth about the literal existence of Santa.

You mean there's no more reason to believe in Christianity than you were told it was true by your parents, like with Santa?

Doesn't say lot for the faith really. Does it have any objective substantiation at all? Are we wasting our time?

Posted by Eirenist (# 13343) on :

Of course Father Christmas exists. He is the Spirit of Christmas. Not so sure about Santa Claus though . . .

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

Boogie:

quote:
Richard Dawkins said he doesn't tell kids that Santa doesn't exist - he says "lets think about it ... how many chimney's are in the world? ... "

So he doesn't come right out and say it, he leads them carefully through a series of statements until they come up with the 'right' answer.

Any child of school age can recognise this process. Teachers do it all the time.

Posted by stonespring (# 15530) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:

quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:

I think that telling kids that Santa Claus literally exists and then letting the kids learn that he does not predisposes kids to doubt that anything they were taught about religion is true - especially with traditional Christianity, since it involves a literal God-Man, literal historical events, and literal miracles.

Both Father Christmas and traditional Christianity predate modern concepts of "literal truth". Or was your post supposed to be sarcastic?

How old is the idea of Father Christmas? Although St. Nicholas lived in the early first millenium AD/CE, the American conception of Santa Claus is not much older than the late 19th Century. As for Father Christmas, even if the idea of him goes back many centuries, the huge market of products and media protraying him (or his Santa Claus/St. Nicholas/Sinterklaas/Papa Noel brethren) as "real" for children's consumption is relatively new - but widespread enough that for children like me it seemed basically on par with the story of the Nativity as one of the 100% factual truths of Christmas. Yes I figured out that it porbably wasn't true by age 7, and my Mom told me that it wasn't when I asked and I cried. She had also told me from a very young age that the Bible should not be read literally and that priests have no more access to the truth or God than anyone else (note: I am not saying that that is what I believe now - not that I actually know what I believe now). So it seemed very strange to me that my parents would have not explained to me from the beginning that Santa Claus was something symbolic and a wonderful fantasy. In that way, he would have been just as real to me as Mickey Mouse (I spend a good deal of my childhood obsessed with Disney) - and even more real because Santa represents generosity and other good things and isn't just a commercial icon.

By literal truth I do not mean a purely literal interpretation of Scripture that excludes allegorical interpretation. I mean an interpretation that believes that Christ actually became flesh, actually was born of a virgin, actually died on a cross, actually rose again on the third day, etc. Whether you call that literal or not does not really matter. I think I believe this (although I have doubts and moments when I think I can believe it while allowing it to be possible that it is not "literally" true in certain ways) but what I believe is not important. A very large number of Christians want to teach their children some elements of the Christian faith, including certain "facts" about Jesus' life, death, and resurrection. They may also want to teach their children to think critically about these things and to appreciate signs and symbols in the way early Christians did. But even if they do that, teaching Christianity (which involves a whole lot of believing in things you cannot see based on trust and faith) to children can only be harmed by telling them that a real man comes to bring their presents and observes all their good and bad deeds, only to later admit to them that Santa only exists in spirit.

This is made even more harmful by the fact that submission to parental authority (which made fantasies imposed on kids and then imploded (or gently deflated) when parents deemed fit more appropriate) is no longer a priority in our society. I don't think submission to parental authority is a good thing, but I don't think benevolent deception of one's children on a grand scale leading to inevitable disappointment is either.

The scientific revolution's effect on our society also makes the scientific verifiability of things important even to young children. They may not really understand what the scientific method is, but if parents and other authority figures (like NORAD) tell them something is true even according to the scientific experts, children place a great deal of trust in that and it can only be damaging for that trust to be betrayed by the revelation that it is not, in fact, scientifically/literally/whatever you want to call it true (even if, when kids get older they realize it is too absurd to be true in that way).

Furthermore, children at a young age place incredible value on those things and people that give them good material things. They will like and love anyone who gives them candy, food, toys, etc. Church ministries to children know this and keep kids satisfied with lots of food and plaything tokens (even if some of them try to keep the food healthy and the playthings ethically relevant (whatever that means)). So to tell children that the good material things of Christmas (or at least the good material things that matter to them) are largely provided by one man (Santa or Christ? I'm saying Santa here because that is what children who expect Santa to bring them present actually think) - to tell children is like saying that their beloved uncle sends them presents from far away every year and then telling them when they are old enough that that uncle does not exist as a physical person.

I don't think Santa Claus/Father Christmas/whatever you call it is harmful to children - but I do think portraying him as a real, physical person is. The youngest children cannot tell the difference between reality and fantasy, but there is a whole age range of kids who recognize it enough to be upset when they are deliberately (even if benevolently) misled about something they care about. If you want Santa Claus/Father Christmas in kids' lives, tell them from the begining that it's a beautiful story and a spirit of giving and caring, but that there is not a real toy factory at the North Pole.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
I never knew these folks actually believed Father Christmas was real, which is the only way these reactions could make any lick of sense. Is Santafarianism a big religion in the UK?

Every Christmas we get at least one story about a clergyman who visits a primary school and 'traumatises' young children by telling them Santa Claus doesn't exist. It's just part of the scenery.

OTOH, I'm sure some sociologist somewhere has analysed 'Santafarianism' and concluded that it contains all the right ingredients to be labelled a religion.

Its literalists are almost always young children, while older children have a type of mercenary, self-interested relationship with the religion that reminds us of the medieval peasantry and their provisional relationship with various RC saints. (Maybe they could be described as 'rice Santafarians'). Parents represent a category of clergy throughout the ages who don't believe, but who maintain the fiction of belief because they're convinced that belief is beneficial to a certain class of society - young children. There is clearly a de-conversion process. As for Santa himself, he is obviously believed to have supernatural, godlike powers, and he has his own 'angels' - elves - to help him.....

Yes, I'm sure we could argue that 'Santafarianism' was a religion in its own right.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Yup. It's one of the signs of Advent - the Daily Mail claiming that you're not allowed to say Christmas any more, a made up story about a local authority banning nativity displays, and someone letting the cat out of the bag about Father Christmas.

Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :

I was just reading an article -- I wish I'd bookmarked it now -- about how it's actually psychologically healthy to play the Santa Claus/Father Christmas game with children; helps them go beyond concrete thinking, helps them learn the shared stories of their culture, etc.

My parents never explicitly said, "Yes, there is a Santa Claus," nor did I ever ask. I mean, Santa decorations were a fixture in our home; I still have my grandparents' celluloid Weihnachtsmann that we still hang on our tree; my parents might in passing refer to Santa delivering presents. But Santa was always very much a subordinate character in our Christmas celebrations, which centered around welcoming Baby Jesus and church activities.

But I was always something of a Santa skeptic, and did indeed perceive that the whole Santa thing was something of a game: My parents' too-facile explanation of multiple store Santas by telling me that he had many helpers disguised as himself; when I asked how Santa got to our house with presents before we got home from Christmas Eve services around 9:30 pm or so while other children didn't seem to receive their presents before Christmas Day, my father's explanation that Santa stopped at Lutheran homes first [Ultra confused]

; other discrepancies and fast-talking that led me to suspect that the Santa story was all in fun. And since I got presents regardless, it didn't really disillusion me. It was more of a riddle to be solved.

When my mom finally asked me if I believed in Santa Claus -- I think I was maybe six years old -- I answered, "I think Dad and Grandpa are Santa. And it turned out that Grandpa, who was not a churchgoer, was our stealth gift-deliverer.)

Our granddaughter is a Santa believer, so I play along. If I had young children, I don't think I'd discourage their belief in Santa, but I also wouldn't go out of my way to encourage it either. I'd engage in a lot of "What do YOU think?" and tell them the story of Nicholas, and gradually help them understand Santa as an embodiment of the spirit of giving without receiving," and help them experience how much fun it is to be an anonymous giver of gifts to people in need, who can't do anything for us in return.

*Postscript: That said...one of the things I hate, hate, HATE about Santa Claus is the "He knows when you are sleeping/he knows when you're awake; he knows when you've been bad or good/so be good for goodness' sake." It really works against the concept of God's grace, which is independent of our presumptions of being "naughty" or "nice." I think I dislike that part of the Santa myth far more than the actual fibbing about his existence.

[ 27. December 2013, 16:40: Message edited by: LutheranChik ]

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
I was just reading an article -- I wish I'd bookmarked it now -- about how it's actually psychologically healthy to play the Santa Claus/Father Christmas game with children; helps them go beyond concrete thinking, helps them learn the shared stories of their culture, etc.
<snip> *Postscript: That said...one of the things I hate, hate, HATE about Santa Claus is the "He knows when you are sleeping/he knows when you're awake; he knows when you've been bad or good/so be good for goodness' sake." It really works against the concept of God's grace, which is independent of our presumptions of being "naughty" or "nice." I think I dislike that part of the Santa myth far more than the actual fibbing about his existence.

This 'Santa won't come if you're naughty makes me cringe a bit as well , yet aren't we on a parallel with -- 'The wages of sin are death' ?
Also if Santa knows when we're sitting up , and he knows when we're lying down ? Sounds pretty close to Psalm 139 v1 to me .

Belief can indeed be a healthy thing . Maybe when secularism has done it's bit with the Santafarianism , who's to say the inevitable vacuum that follows isn't something that the substance of the Christian Faith couldn't eventually fall into.

Posted by stonespring (# 15530) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
I was just reading an article -- I wish I'd bookmarked it now -- about how it's actually psychologically healthy to play the Santa Claus/Father Christmas game with children; helps them go beyond concrete thinking, helps them learn the shared stories of their culture, etc.

My parents never explicitly said, "Yes, there is a Santa Claus," nor did I ever ask. I mean, Santa decorations were a fixture in our home; I still have my grandparents' celluloid Weihnachtsmann that we still hang on our tree; my parents might in passing refer to Santa delivering presents. But Santa was always very much a subordinate character in our Christmas celebrations, which centered around welcoming Baby Jesus and church activities.

But I was always something of a Santa skeptic, and did indeed perceive that the whole Santa thing was something of a game: My parents' too-facile explanation of multiple store Santas by telling me that he had many helpers disguised as himself; when I asked how Santa got to our house with presents before we got home from Christmas Eve services around 9:30 pm or so while other children didn't seem to receive their presents before Christmas Day, my father's explanation that Santa stopped at Lutheran homes first ; other discrepancies and fast-talking that led me to suspect that the Santa story was all in fun. And since I got presents regardless, it didn't really disillusion me. It was more of a riddle to be solved.

When my mom finally asked me if I believed in Santa Claus -- I think I was maybe six years old -- I answered, "I think Dad and Grandpa are Santa. And it turned out that Grandpa, who was not a churchgoer, was our stealth gift-deliverer.)

Our granddaughter is a Santa believer, so I play along. If I had young children, I don't think I'd discourage their belief in Santa, but I also wouldn't go out of my way to encourage it either. I'd engage in a lot of "What do YOU think?" and tell them the story of Nicholas, and gradually help them understand Santa as an embodiment of the spirit of giving without receiving," and help them experience how much fun it is to be an anonymous giver of gifts to people in need, who can't do anything for us in return.

*Postscript: That said...one of the things I hate, hate, HATE about Santa Claus is the "He knows when you are sleeping/he knows when you're awake; he knows when you've been bad or good/so be good for goodness' sake." It really works against the concept of God's grace, which is independent of our presumptions of being "naughty" or "nice." I think I dislike that part of the Santa myth far more than the actual fibbing about his existence.

I think the resemblance of the idea of Santa to a Catholic understanding of Sin and Merit - I gues a kid can be naughty and still get presents as long as s/he goes to confession [Smile]

- is one reason why for me, as Catholic, the Santa story basically seems like a redressed-in-modern-commercialism version of pop-culture Christianity (at least in the terms of it that children understand), which never had much about sacrifice and death in it anyway outside of Evangelical and other devout circles. That's why I think a kid is pretty liable to think if Santa doesn't exist than maybe the stories about Jesus aren't true either. It's Atheism 101 to compare Christ to Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, and even "Peter Pan, Frankenstein or Superman" (thank you, Freddie Mercury). I'm fine with teaching kids to question everything and find their own answers, but if you deliberately mislead them they will be predisposed to not trust the religious beliefs you do intend to teach them.

Like other people on this thread, I think that we need to tone down the "cult of Santa Claus." Unlike the "Keep Christ in Christmas" people, I'm not talking about the Santa craze drowning out the celebration of the Nativity, but rather pointing out that the juxtaposition of one narrative (Santa) with a similar one (the Christ child), with one turning out to be inauthentic, is bound to leave a bad taste in children's mouths about the other narrative, especially among modern kids who don't take well to being lied to.

Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :

The wages of sin may be death, but (at least in some of our theologies) we're all naughty at least as much as we're nice. What then?

No, I'm not going to agree that Santa is an appropriate stand-in for God. In fact, I think the Santa myth tends to inculcate a negative understanding of God as Someone who provides "presents," whether the gift of eternal life or temporal happiness/prosperity,to those who are are good enough to make his cut. That's a mindset hard to unlearn.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
That's a mindset hard to unlearn.

Doesn't it go with the image 'Father'?

Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :

My father didn't cast me into the outer darkness for being bad. (Although this is true in some families, which opens a whole 'nother kettle of worms for people with unloving, alienating fathers.) And even though he'd get angry with me, I still got good things from him; I didn't get lumps of coal for Christmas.

[ 27. December 2013, 18:26: Message edited by: LutheranChik ]

Posted by Anglo Catholic Relict (# 17213) on :

I didn't like deceiving my d, so every year from when she was old enough to understand, I said something like this: 'Some people think that Santa is real, and that he brings presents for children. Other people think that mummy and daddy buy all the presents, and pretend they are from Santa because it is a fun thing to do. Which do you think is true?'

Every year she thought about it, and then said, 'I think Santa is true.' Then I replied, 'Lovely; if you think that, then so do I.'

When I thought she was old enough, at about 9 or 10 I told her myself; same beginning, different ending. She was upset for a while, but I told her that the magic is still real, even if Santa is not. And since then we have carried on exactly as before; Santa still comes.

Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :

My 12 year old says there is a boy in his class who still believes but I reckon he is just winding the rest of the class up.
We decided not to do Santa with our two boys. It was a doddle with our rather literal eldest child, we told him Santa was not real but other children believed in him and he wasn't to spoil their fun by telling them. Worked perfectly. Our younger child, however, is a complete romantic and refused point blank to believe us [Roll Eyes]

he believed in Santa for years despite our efforts.
We do have the tooth fairy but that has always been acknowledged as a game by both children, especially as she is rather forgetful.

Posted by chive (# 208) on :

I have a colleague who has four sons. Last year, the oldest, who I think was about 12, came up to her and told her he no longer believed in Santa. Fair enough. Instead of saying something along the lines of 'OK but don't tell your brothers because they still believe in him' she decided not to give him any presents at all on Christmas day and then told him he could have them on Boxing day if he told her he still believed in Santa.

Now that is fucked up.

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

Not sure how many Shipmates know of an animated film called Polar Express . This film was a real favorite of the young chap in OP . There's a bit on there about children who believed in Santa being able to hear a certain little bell ring whereas the adults , and children who didn't believe, were unable to hear it.

In this case the parents have a little plastic bell on their Christmas tree which in the past years he said he heard ringing , (it has no clapper or other mechanism ).
This Christmas was the first time he said he couldn't hear it ringing . I guess he's letting
the parents down gradually . [Biased]

I think there is evidence that secularism , despite all it's largesse , has a need to bestow a form of spiritual magic onto it's young . ISTM that traditional Christian practice ceased to fulfil this need long ago , maybe it never did.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

The 'Santa myth' obviously performs an important function. I suspect that its function has increased as orthodox Christian belief has declined. It's an attempt to re-enchant a disenchanted world. I mean, in the days of St. Nicholas were little European peasant boys and girls really urged to invest their hopes in large hauls of toys appearing by magic?

Children are more precious today than previously. They don't have to be sent out to work, and they don't have to learn the ways of the world as quickly as possible. Parents don't have a lot of children and expect some of them to die; we can now afford to be sentimental about children, so I suppose the Santa myth is at the service of the cult of childhood.

Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :

It's interesting, in that light, to notice how the age of disbelief in Santa/Father Christmas seems to be rising. When I was a kiddo in the 60's, any child over the age of maybe 8 who still expressed belief in Santa Claus was likely to be ridiculed by schoolmates and others. But DiL, a psychologist, tells us that her nephew/our granddaughter's cousin, who's 10 and lives in a pretty sophisticated environment (parents work in the entertainment industry and the kids have ample opportunity to experience the technical reality behind the unreality)is still a true believer, much to her bemusement as an aunt as well as a professional. It seems, from other posts, that this seems to be happening elsewhere as well.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
our granddaughter's cousin, who's 10 and lives in a pretty sophisticated environment (parents work in the entertainment industry and the kids have ample opportunity to experience the technical reality behind the unreality)is still a true believer,

I'm pretty sure 9-year-old eldest Cnihtlet has figured out both the Tooth Fairy and St. Nick, but she plays along for the benefit of he younger siblings (and probably because she's concerned that formally disavowing the myth might reduce her gift quota.)

The 5-year-old is a true believer.

Posted by Molopata The Rebel (# 9933) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
[...] I think that telling kids that Santa Claus literally exists and then letting the kids learn that he does not predisposes kids to doubt that anything they were taught about religion is true - especially with traditional Christianity, since it involves a literal God-Man, literal historical events, and literal miracles.
[...] Children are bound to be even more likely to doubt anything a minister says about the literal life/death/resurrection of Christ if the minister plays along with an untruth about the literal existence of Santa.
You mean there's no more reason to believe in Christianity than you were told it was true by your parents, like with Santa?

Doesn't say lot for the faith really. Does it have any objective substantiation at all? Are we wasting our time?

I concur with stonespring, and it is upstaged only by a tradition in Germany by which children are told that their presents are brought by the Christkindl, i.e. baby Jesus. (St. Nicholaus operates a separate franchise on 6th December from "The Woods").

Although I understand that the original meaning of the tradition was allegorical, when it transpires to a 8-year-old, who is capable of factual verification as expected in our post-Enlightenment society, but who has not yet fully developed an appreciation of symbolism and myth, that this is not in fact what is going on, there is a real chance she will close her heart to this whole God thing forever, even though, as Karl implies, there must be more to Christianity than Santafarianism.

Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on :

We told our children the truth but that Santa was a game people play and that we would play the game. So we did - mince pie for Santa, carrot for the reindeer and all. Mainly because we didn't want to lie and because Mr Nen still remembers how upset he was as a kid to find out it wasn't true.

I still remember how upset I felt when my dad said I was too old for a stocking, though. Our kids are in their 20s and still get one. [Big Grin]

Nen - aka Mrs Santa.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

I believed in the tooth fairy far longer than FC - because I put her to the test, aged seven, and she passed!

I didn't tell anyone my tooth had come out, then I wrapped it in tin foil and put it in a glass right at the back of the cupboard. Lo! The next morning there was a sixpence, wrapped in tin foil. I remember my excitement telling my parents and friends. Awww, bless!

Anyone encountered Terry Pratchett's tooth fairy or the Hog-Father? Marvellous!

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

HO. HO. HO.

(does that answer your question, Boogie?)

The tooth fairy in our house has a moustache...

Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
The tooth fairy in our house has a moustache...

Then she needs a good pair of tweezers, like the rest of us have. [Biased]

I distinctly remember believing in the Tooth Fairy and writing a letter to her asking her to leave a fairy for me to keep. Of course I also came to the revelation that she didn't exist and if it was traumatic I have suppressed it. [Biased]

When Nenlet1 was little she also wrote to the Tooth Fairy because ours didn't pay enough (20p per tooth) and she wanted the fairy who came to her friend over the road who paid £1. You should have heard Mr Nen. "A pound per tooth?? That's twenty quid a mouthful!!" [Eek!]

I do wonder what she pays now.

Needless to say, the fairy over the road started coming to us. Nenlet1 at some stage asked about whether it was true and I said it was like Father Christmas, which she thought about and then said, "So it's you, then."

Boogie, your parents must be endowed with magical powers if they knew your tooth had come out and where you'd hidden it without telling anyone. [Eek!]

That post isn't very Purgatorial, sorry; in response to the OP, I'm pretty certain kids work it out around the age of 7 but keep up appearances for the parents.

Nen - generous Tooth Fairy. [Biased]

[ 29. December 2013, 11:28: Message edited by: Nenya ]

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

Nenya:

quote:
Then she needs a good pair of tweezers, like the rest of us have.

HE is quite happy with his moustache where it is, thanks.

Why the assumption that tooth fairies are always female? [Cool]

Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :

Upthread someone quoted Richard Dawkins doubting Santa could get to all those chimneys in one night. This is a few days late, but here is what Brian Cox says about it (don't know if he's good friends with Dawkins). Rather sweet, really [Smile]

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nenya:

Boogie, your parents must be endowed with magical powers if they knew your tooth had come out and where you'd hidden it without telling anyone.

Haha - I imagine it was a fluke. But Mum and Dad were very, very tidy people so probably noticed the disturbed cupboard.

Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Nenya:
quote:
Then she needs a good pair of tweezers, like the rest of us have.
HE is quite happy with his moustache where it is, thanks.

Why the assumption that tooth fairies are always female?

I didn't make that assumption - I knew what you meant. Hence the [Biased]

Posted by Daffodil (# 13164) on :

Rolyn said

quote:
This 'Santa won't come if you're naughty makes me cringe a bit as well , yet aren't we on a parallel with -- 'The wages of sin are death' ?

I think in my parents case any comments along these lines were an attempt to calm down 4 excited children!

I remember when I was about 7 talking to my mum about the boy over the road, who seemed to know that Father Christmas was going to bring him a bicycle. I remember asking her if she thought that Father Christmas might bring me a bicycle too... and she said that she didn't think he would. In our house our main presents came from our parents with stockings from Father Christmas, so I was sort of expecting that answer, but I remember feeling disappointed that Father Christmas didn't seem to treat all children equally!

My elder daughter presented us with a conundrum, when she was insistent that Father Christmas existed when she was 12. Her argument was that her friends didn't believe in Jesus either and she did! I got my thinking cap on, and then explained that Father Christmas was not actually a person, but the act of giving surprise presents.

My younger daughter (14) is autistic and completely able to engage with her imagination. Last Christmas she beginning to think that Father Christmas wasn't real. By this Christmas she was ready to believe again and informed me "You don't need to bother buying the presents Father Christmas will provide them!"
She saw the grotto in town and was in 7th heaven! So I paid the money and we joined the queue. She debated pretending to be younger than she actually was, but I encouraged her to be her real age. There is no age limit for Father Christmas. The Elf in charge of managing the queue and briefing Father Christmas asked her what she would like for Christmas "A Lebanese Medical Dictionary" she replied. Her face lit up, her belief was total, and in the middle of the manic retail frenzy, I think both Father Christmas and the Elf encountered something magical. I hope God is as magical as my daughter thought Father Christmas was..

Posted by otyetsfoma (# 12898) on :

I haven't read all the above - has no one yet pointed out the identity of Santa Claus with Saint Nicolas of Myra -(4th century) which makes a more mature understanding less traumatic?

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Daffodil:
.... The Elf in charge of managing the queue and briefing Father Christmas asked her what she would like for Christmas "A Lebanese Medical Dictionary" she replied. ...

Did she get one? Does such a thing exist? Is athlete's foot different in Beirut from the rest of the world? And what was Santa's reaction to this unusual request?

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