Thread: Witnessing at work Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by EtymologicalEvangelical (# 15091) on :
 
I'm in a job (working with vulnerable people) where it is specifically forbidden to initiate a conversation about religion - or any other controversial subject, for that matter. Even carrying on a conversation on these themes that the client has initiated, is rather frowned on.

I must admit that I tend to compartmentalise my life into professional and personal, and keep my trap shut at work, unless someone overtly asks me whether I am a Christian or believe in God. Of course, I feel a bit guilty about it, and then there are all the little thoughts about compromise and cowardice and "being ashamed of the gospel" etc.

Of course, it's one thing for Christian leaders, who are not involved in the secular world, and have the comfort of their captive audience - their "choir", as it were - where they feel at liberty and comfort, to hector others into doing what they would not have to do. It's quite another to actually do it. ("Secular world", in this context, does not include being a hospital or prison chaplain, for example, because those are jobs which everyone recognises involves religion. I mean, being someone who is an ordinary 'secular' worker, who has to go out of his or her way to witness to what s/he believes).

Question to all you Christians (or those of other convictions - perhaps even "active atheists" who want to share their views), who are ordinary "non-religious" workers in the secular world: do you try to share what you believe with customers and colleagues?

If so, how do you go about it?

Is it an issue that bothers you?
 
Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :
 
I'm a teacher. I'll discuss my faith if the topic comes up, but I don't go out of my way to introduce it to the conversation. I'm also very careful about how I present things to students, particularly as I teach science. I will point out that there is nothing incompatible about accepting scientific evidence and believing in God and being a Christian.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Having lived and worked in those settings, what I usually try to do is to pray God will open doors, and then to live in such a way that those around me ask of their own accord why i am different (often in the wake of some trouble in their own lives). I don't mean ostentatious Christianity stuff, like public prayer etc. Rather the fruit of the Spirit (patience, kindness, gentkeness, and so forth). Seems to work pretty well. And no one complains when it's their own question you are answering.
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
In my former bureaucratic existence, we tended to be careful about things such as politics and religion. Religious commemorations were permitted and there was Merry Christmasing and Barukh Eid and a Happy Diwali and so forth, with sharing of treats. Witnessing was frowned upon, and the existence of the two bible-reading (one French, one English) groups was known to very few, although I had seen the meeting places posted in the departmental intranet.

I was subjected to witnessing on two occasions, one time with an earnest young CBC (not the broadcaster, Canadian born Chinese) finance officer asking me if I were willing to let The Lord into my heart. We couldn't discuss this between 8.30 and 5, I told her, but if she were at the 8 am at Saint Vartan's on Sunday, we'd give her a psalm or two. And I had a Seventh-Day student hand me a calendar with recipes, letting me know that she could discuss it further and I told her that I was too post-Levitical in my eating habits to make the conversation useful.

On one floor, the witnessing was a bit stronger, and a young Jewish officer came to me for advice. I had a quiet word with the director in that division and suggested that we would not want a Hostile Workplace situation, and she then had a quiet word with the evangelizing employee, and peace was restored. Canadian Jews have a high proportion of holocaust-survivors and their families, as well as the descendants of the Russian and Bessarabian pogroms, and there is a heightened sensitivity to any whiff of proselytisation.
 
Posted by Niteowl (# 15841) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Having lived and worked in those settings, what I usually try to do is to pray God will open doors, and then to live in such a way that those around me ask of their own accord why i am different (often in the wake of some trouble in their own lives). I don't mean ostentatious Christianity stuff, like public prayer etc. Rather the fruit of the Spirit (patience, kindness, gentkeness, and so forth). Seems to work pretty well. And no one complains when it's their own question you are answering.
This. During my working life I found that living a life that exemplifies Christ while not actively "witnessing" that even those I worked with who were hostile to Christians who were actively witnessing would ask about my faith after watching and then seeing I wasn't going to hound them.

Most workplaces these days do have policies either discouraging or downright forbidding discussing of controversial topics like politics or religion. Those policies tend to keep morale higher and the workplace more productive.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Absolutely not permissible in my work (therapy), although I have had many an interesting discussion about religion, spirituality, and so on. But too much personal revelation not good, especially with vulnerable people.

I've never really understood this idea about being able to discern Christians either - I know some incredibly patient and compassionate colleagues, who are not Christians, or not religious. But it comes with the territory I suppose.
 
Posted by que sais-je (# 17185) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Question to all you Christians (or those of other convictions - perhaps even "active atheists" who want to share their views), who are ordinary "non-religious" workers in the secular world: do you try to share what you believe with customers and colleagues?
Does wearing some sort of "symbol of affiliation count"? Many years ago, teaching in a poly, I was called in by my boss for wearing a CND badge. He suggested it might have an affect on 'young minds'.

My view was that people assumed that not showing some evidence of your views meant you agreed with the mainstream opinion. I wanted to show that some of us at least didn't. I was grudgingly allowed to continue to wear my badge. Several other staff joined in and probably several students renounced their CND membership on the spot.
 
Posted by The5thMary (# 12953) on :
 
I absolutely despise someone telling me I'm going to burn in Hell if I don't accept Jesus as my personal lord and pocket sized savior. I also despise when people drop a lot of "Praise Jesus!" or "Praise God!" into every other sentence or hint around, trying to find out if I'm a believer in Jesus (I am, but I strongly suspect I have a whole different take on Him than a bible thumper) or what manner of godlessness I subscribe to. I don't share my thoughts about God unless someone asks me and only when we're in the break room or outside of work. It's not appropriate during working hours, unless a tornado is bearing down on us (I live in the southern United States where this is a common occurrence) or the end of the world is happening. I'd much rather keep my mouth shut and SHOW God's love than to open my mouth and ruin it... [Biased]
 
Posted by The5thMary (# 12953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Having lived and worked in those settings, what I usually try to do is to pray God will open doors, and then to live in such a way that those around me ask of their own accord why i am different (often in the wake of some trouble in their own lives). I don't mean ostentatious Christianity stuff, like public prayer etc. Rather the fruit of the Spirit (patience, kindness, gentkeness, and so forth). Seems to work pretty well. And no one complains when it's their own question you are answering.
Yes! This is a great answer! A lot less sarcastic and snotty than my answer! Ah, Lamb Chopped, I always learn so much from you. [Smile]
 
Posted by chive (# 208) on :
 
I would absolutely never in a blue moon discuss religion with a customer/client/whatever you call them at work. It would be deeply inappropriate. However I find that religion is usually a topic of much debate and argument with my colleagues, usually about 3 in the morning on a quiet night shift when we've finished discussing politics and the evils of our management. In my team I have a fundamentalist atheist and the discussions we have are generally considered good night shift entertainment.

Whether that counts as witnessing I don't know.
 
Posted by Helen-Eva (# 15025) on :
 
If people at work ask me what I did at the weekend I might mention I went to church but that's my limit. I think "witnessing" too overtly puts people off and does a lot more harm than good, whereas unshowily being a decent human being gives a good impression. (As others have said better than I.)
 
Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :
 
Me too Helen-Eva. Just occasionally though someone asks about it. Conversations like this happen naturally and are to be welcomed.
 
Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
This is more or less my way too.
 
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I've little to add other than this sobering thought ...

My brother, in his more full-on evangelical days, once worked in a depot for a major utility/service. He made sure while he was there that he 'witnessed' to everybody he worked alongside. You'll know the kind of thing if you've ever been a GLE ...

He left the depot and was posted somewhere else. A few years later, he returned to work there for a while and was struck that whilst everyone remembered him, none of them could remember that he was a Christian nor that he had - in his view - earnestly 'witnessed' to them so assiduously ...

Make of that what you will.
 
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
When co-workers ask what I did at the weekend I tell them and if they are sick then I'll say that I'm hoping and praying for them. In a workplace that is overwhelmingly scientific I've had precious few knockbacks in about fifteen years, but then most people are pretty civilised too.
 
Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :
 
So there is something additional to being a good worker, colleague, subordinate, boss ? To being kind, generous, tolerant, going the extra mile, patient, honest, forgiving ? Or these things need an agenda ?

I've already failed today getting exasperated with my 83 year old mother.

She needs telling about Jesus all right.

In my voice. Body language.

What else ?
 
Posted by tomsk (# 15370) on :
 
Opportunities present themselves from time to time. The thing to create the opportunities has been to allow people to know I am - e.g. if people ask what I did at the weekend, or where I went on holiday at Easter, I can say to church or Spring Harvest. It's fairly low key, but I think of it as witnessing. I have one colleague who asks about it quite a lot.

On the other hand, it is possible to conceal your faith. I have a colleague who I think is Christian but has never volunteered any info about it or joined in conversations about it.

Peter says something about being able to explain yourself. I think there's a balance between being a covert and overly overt Christian. The kind of workplace you're in will make a difference, but on the whole it should be possible to share something of yourself with colleagues.
 
Posted by Qoheleth. (# 9265) on :
 
In my workplace, I am the site/facility/location manager (team of 25) and so I absolutely can't allow boundaries to become blurred.

However:
- I have small wooden cross on my desk shelf, in an open plan office.
- I tell people what I'm doing at the weekend if (and only if) they ask
- I can't talk with people in quite the same way I would in the parish or among friends. But I can listen in the same way.
- I blog irregularly on the company national intranet with 150 words on 'looking sideways at life' - not overtly religious, but a bit of deeper thought in a sea of corporate bumph. As a result, I was once contacted by a car-based co-employee from the other end of the country who needed to explore his inexplicable urge to stop off at country churches.
 
Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
I'm paid to do it at my workplace [Biased]
 
Posted by Jammy Dodger (# 17872) on :
 
I'm openly a Christian at work and will talk about my faith if people specifically ask. But for me the best witness is to act with integrity and to try as far as I can to be the same person at work that I would be at church and vice versa.

I'm very far from perfect so people see my warts 'n' all but hopefully if people see me making certain moral choices at work in terms of how I treat people (or don't respond in kind to office politics) then they associate this with my faith.
 
Posted by tomsk (# 15370) on :
 
Apologies if linking to this breaks ship rules, but I can helpful point shipmates to a guide to workplace witnessing
 
Posted by Barefoot Friar (# 13100) on :
 
I'll just Leave this here...
 
Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :
 
"Do you know Jesus?", I was asked this once years ago at work. I answered "it is highly unlikely that I believe precisely as you do" which thankfully closed it, and thankfully the individual left me alone. I thought later that it might have been good to add "and I consider such matters private".

My thoughts were that I also do not discuss my bowels nor sexual behaviour with co-workers; this is equally private. Similarly avoidance of giving and receiving of health advice is also advised at work.

Quiet living by example and answering reasonable questions only when asked is far better than professing anything on your own, as some others have suggested.

[ 27. December 2013, 00:33: Message edited by: no prophet ]
 
Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
I'm paid to do it at my workplace [Biased]
Me, too.

Still, dealing with a variety of faiths, the AA aphorism, Attraction Not Promotion, is my watchword.

That and remembering that bit about the Holy Spirit in the Trisagion Prayers, 'who art everywhere present and fillest all things.'

It does me good, when I get to cranking up my evangelism engine, to remember that, whatever the spiritual health of my interlocutors that the Holy Spirit has been hard at work long before I showed up on the scene.
 
Posted by Taliesin (# 14017) on :
 
This. There has to be prepared earth for the news to fall into. Someone who has heard about God/bible/Jesus as everyone I've ever met has, at least superficially, needs to be willing to listen from a new perspective if it's not going to be the same old, same old...
Excuse me, it's 4.30am.

People already know, and have chosen to reject it.

What country do you live in, no prophet?
I can't imagine someone seriously asking if I know Jesus... it would make me giggle.

So, I'm a teacher, working with difficult kids.

Two interesting points here.
One, it's a small private school initially set up by a Methodist minister and his wife, to cater for boys who were rejected by the education system of the 1950s. Our school was grounded on very strong Christian beliefs, but these days all the senior staff are non believers.
Two, surprising numbers of pupils come from church going homes, and on one occasion a boy told me to 'shut the fuck up about things you don't understand' because he had been 'dragged to church every week of (his) life' and therefore there was nothing I could tell him about Christianity.

[ 27. December 2013, 03:44: Message edited by: Taliesin ]
 
Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :
 
Taliesin:
Canada, western Canada to be precise. The demographics historically is small town, immigrant population, farm base, now increasingly urban. There's a lot of rather personal comments about everything in the small town culture of the Canadian prairies and it has become what often happens in cities also.
 
Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on :
 
As a teacher, I have always been very, very careful not to cross the boundary and proselytise the children/ students.

As one of the few/ sometimes only Christian in various schools, I was often asked to do the "God" bit in assemblies as I was comfortable with it and others weren't. This was in the days when assemblies were required to be "broadly Christian" in nature. I was often asked by the students if I believed in God and had some quite remarkable conversations, always staying within the boundaries of responding to their questions.

As regards colleagues,everyone knew I was a Christian because of "What did you do at the weekend?" type of staff room chat.
As as been said above, my aim was to try to live in such a way that people brought the topic up with me and then to sensitively answer their questions like Peter says about giving a reason for the hope we have. One colleague used to download his hatred of Christianity (he had good reason)on me. We are still good friends almost 20 years later. He has mellowed and very supportive of my work here but still raises negative questions with me!
I've ended up listening a huge amount and doing all sorts of things such as sitting in hospital rooms with seriously ill colleagues and even praying at a deathbed.

Always, always taking my lead from them but humbled by what can happen.
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
I'm still puzzled by this idea of Christians living in such a way, that others ask them questions. What does this involve? Does it mean that Christians are unusually patient, gentle, compassionate? I must have missed all that in my short happy life!
 
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I'm still puzzled by this idea of Christians living in such a way, that others ask them questions. What does this involve? Does it mean that Christians are unusually patient, gentle, compassionate? I must have missed all that in my short happy life!
The most unusually patient, gentle, compassionate people I have met are not Christians.

I have a visceral dislike of the word 'witnessing' - maybe because the RL people I know who use it are somewhat self righteous, and rather lacking in tact and understanding.
 
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 
It's really quite simple. I don't want other people to try to convert me to their religion/philosophy/diet plan when I'm at work, so it behoves me to give them the same respect and not try to convert them to mine.
 
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
I find that being in a church choir or other church-related activity is what drives people to ask questions, rather than the faith itself. And that's OK by me.
 
Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on :
 
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl
quote:
I'm still puzzled by this idea of Christians living in such a way, that others ask them questions. What does this involve? Does it mean that Christians are unusually patient, gentle, compassionate? I must have missed all that in my short happy life!
I agree, some of my colleagues used to put me to shame...so for me it has involved being willing to apologise when necessary!
But I don't think it's about being a saintly presence more about being a normal human being whose life is anchored by a faith which forms me....Another aspect has been holding back from jumping in and giving an opinion and using a staff room debate as a preaching platform but rather listening and waiting to be asked what I think. I was often asked "You're a Christian, what do you think about...." and sometimes I would answer with an opinion but sometimes with "I just don't know....."
I also hate the word witnessing.
 
Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :
 
Aye MrsBeaky. As it would involve being martyred by the authorities. None of us is going to be weird enough to alienate our colleagues with damnationism hopefully.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I'm still puzzled by this idea of Christians living in such a way, that others ask them questions. What does this involve? Does it mean that Christians are unusually patient, gentle, compassionate? I must have missed all that in my short happy life!
Sometimes it involves showing mercy--like when your archenemy screws up massively in a staff meeting and the others around the table are waiting for you to skewer him--and you don't. That raises some eyebrows.
 
Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :
 
As folks have already said, simply being 'nice' (by which I mean kind, thoughtful and so on) is often no more than our non-Christian colleagues do. To add to Lamb Chopped's great example of something godly that is more counter-cultural, how about deliberately not seeking credit when it is legitimately due to you?

ISTM that drawing attention to one's own part in a team triumph is very much part of contemporary corporate culture, so intentionally drawing attention to the contributions of our colleagues (even potential rivals for promotion) can be, I think, a powerful witness to our faith.
 
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :
 
South Coast Kevin:
quote:
To add to Lamb Chopped's great example of something godly that is more counter-cultural, how about deliberately not seeking credit when it is legitimately due to you?
Women are expected to do this all the time and are often regarded as overambitious if they draw attention to their achievements. If you're female, this isn't counter-cultural at all; and if there are any corporate weasels in your team you may not need to worry about 'deliberately' not seeking credit; the weasel will take all the credit that's going whether s/he deserves it or not, unless actively prevented from doing so.

Also, is it really 'Christian' to allow someone else to take credit that is due to you, thereby giving senior management the impression that the other person is better at their job than they really are?
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
People aren't really saying that not retaliating, and not taking credit for one's achievements, are uniquely Christian, and will raise eyebrows, are they?

Gulp, double gulp, actually. Where have you been living?
 
Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I'm still puzzled by this idea of Christians living in such a way, that others ask them questions. What does this involve? Does it mean that Christians are unusually patient, gentle, compassionate? I must have missed all that in my short happy life!
Sometimes it involves showing mercy--like when your archenemy screws up massively in a staff meeting and the others around the table are waiting for you to skewer him--and you don't. That raises some eyebrows.
While malevolent skewering is not healthy for anyone, sadly in a testosterone-infused environment, letting such situations pass in silence is not seen as a kenotic expression of Christ-like virtue, but an advance signal of submission to further abuse. While that might be the road to individual saintliness, it degrades the working environment for others.

The late Nelson Mandela, like George Orwell, is often now quoted by a very broad range of folks, but his example is perhaps a useful one. He often turned the discussion from the question on the table to a more essential one (e.g. from why-did-George-bomb-on-that-client to what we are trying to do with in our work with clients and our ways of pursuing that goal).
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
"Uniquely"? Meh. "Unusual" is what we're after here. Question-provoking. Not "beyond the ken o' mortal men."
 
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
South Coast Kevin:
quote:
To add to Lamb Chopped's great example of something godly that is more counter-cultural, how about deliberately not seeking credit when it is legitimately due to you?
Women are expected to do this all the time and are often regarded as overambitious if they draw attention to their achievements. If you're female, this isn't counter-cultural at all; and if there are any corporate weasels in your team you may not need to worry about 'deliberately' not seeking credit; the weasel will take all the credit that's going whether s/he deserves it or not, unless actively prevented from doing so.

Also, is it really 'Christian' to allow someone else to take credit that is due to you, thereby giving senior management the impression that the other person is better at their job than they really are?
That's a good example, but I've worked with a ton of people who couldn't retaliate, if their life depended on it, and couldn't or wouldn't take any credit or pride in their own achievement. In fact, I've tried to help them in this regard, so that they could learn to retaliate! (Goes under the name of ego-strength).

Oh well, I suppose it's an endless argument really, but I'm just surprised that anyone would be thought to be a Christian because they weren't assertive or aggressive. The world is full of non-assertive and non-aggressive people - as you say, that was traditionally women's role - but it also applies to some men.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
...and the situation I had in mind did not involve submitting to abuse, but rather what happens when one's persecutor stuffs it big time, perhaps by losing a major contract through sheer unmitigated personal idiocy--and you have the perfect opportunity to rub it in with an oh-so-witty remark that would further humiliate him--and everyone expects you to--and you don't.
 
Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Women... are often regarded as overambitious if they draw attention to their achievements. If you're female, this isn't counter-cultural at all; and if there are any corporate weasels in your team you may not need to worry about 'deliberately' not seeking credit; the weasel will take all the credit that's going whether s/he deserves it or not, unless actively prevented from doing so.
Being a man, I probably need to do that 'check my privilege' thing here, but in places I've worked and among my friends (some of whom have worked in various large organisations) I've not got the impression that women in particular are not expected to draw attention to their achievements.

On the general point, the weasel might well take the credit but should that be of concern to a Christian, if they're taking credit solely at our expense? On the other hand, if they're taking credit which is due to others then it seems to me entirely Christ-like to draw that to the attention of the management.
 
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
To take Christ himself--he'd never stoop to this, but if it were me, I'd have the helluva time not making one of my resurrection appearances at Caiaphas' house, just so I could snap my fingers under his nose and say, "SUCKAH!"
 
Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :
 
Over in our corner of Christendom we tend to trust the Holy Spirit to put us in the right place at the right time to be a "witness to the truth that is in us" instead of desperately going after individuals to "save" them (not in our job descriptions) because we somehow think that we and we alone am responsible for saving them (see above) and that God is going to smite us for not saving them. Those are not images of God and of the work of the Holy Spirit that I find to be consistent with the witness of Scripture.

In my past workplace situations, I have only ever "witnessed" verbally in situations where religion was a topic being discussed by another person -- usually someone asking me if/where I go to church or some ethical question or some question inspired by some religious goings-on in popular culture. Very matter-of-fact stuff.

Non-verbally, I'd hope that my behavior on the job was something that would underline, not undermine, my self-identification as a Christian. My biggest weakness in this regard is a tendency to walk away from or remain silent in discussions involving bigotry or gossip or other destructive things rather than confronting people; I'm a bit cowardly in this regard, although I am inspired by the advice someone once gave me to, in the midst of catty chat about some non-present coworker around the water cooler, murmur something like, "That's funny; I've only ever heard him/her say nice things about you." Peer pressure can be intimidating, and for various reasons I tend to shut down when I'm around it instead of try to fight it.

I'm kind of with St. Francis regarding "Preach Christ always; use words if necessary."

[ 27. December 2013, 17:11: Message edited by: LutheranChik ]
 
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :
 
South Coast Kevin:
quote:
On the general point, the weasel might well take the credit but should that be of concern to a Christian, if they're taking credit solely at our expense? On the other hand, if they're taking credit which is due to others then it seems to me entirely Christ-like to draw that to the attention of the management.
If it's OK to complain about them taking credit which is due to others, surely it's OK to complain about them taking credit that's due to you? I can think of a number of situations where allowing someone else to take credit for something you did might lead to problems later down the line (eg: incompetent surgeon allowed to screw up repeatedly because the rest of the surgical team cover for him, until the day everyone who knows about his 'little problem' is away and a patient dies). And as Augustine points out, not sticking up for yourself could be a signal to the workplace bullies that it's OK to abuse you.

Maybe you do need to check your privilege; or maybe you've just been unusually lucky in your work colleagues.
 
Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :
 
Going up to an earlier post about not sharing faith because the person is a mental health counselor, I have shared my faith a couple of times, given the situation.

Once in a group therapy situation, I had a participant who really felt he was going to hell because of all the sins he had committed. I let the group react to the person, but they did not seem to be reaching him. Finally, I asked if he would like to hear what I believed. I shared that I believed God wears glasses. The cross is etched on those glasses. Because of those glasses I know that when God sees me, he not only sees who I am, but he also sees the cross of Jesus. This seemed to help the man understand Christianity in a different way. I invited him to discuss this more with me if he wanted to. We did talk a couple of more times privately about this, but I made a referral to a chaplain if he wanted to follow up even more.
 
Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
If it's OK to complain about them taking credit which is due to others, surely it's OK to complain about them taking credit that's due to you?
I think there's a difference; the former line of action is about sticking up for the disadvantaged, while the latter is about sticking up for ourselves. I think the former is always a Christ-like thing to do but the latter might not be.
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
I can think of a number of situations where allowing someone else to take credit for something you did might lead to problems later down the line (eg: incompetent surgeon allowed to screw up repeatedly because the rest of the surgical team cover for him, until the day everyone who knows about his 'little problem' is away and a patient dies).
I know there's no neat dividing line here, but I'm not talking about covering up for people's mistakes. I just mean that saying (as would, on the face of it, seem perfectly reasonable), 'Hey, I played a part in this success; it wasn't all about you' might not be what God would have us do.
 
Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :
 
I think not standing up for one's accomplishments is indeed a problem for women in most societies because of the way we're enculturated; and I think some people, regardless of gender, are naturally socially non-aggressive and likely to be taken advantage of by more ambitious coworkers. I don't think it's a necessarily healthy interactive behavior, especially if it causes the person emotional or professional injury...it's one thing to happily choose to be the quiet worker bee who takes care of things behind the scenes without expecting kudos, and someone whose serial lack of recognition for work done because s/he has difficulty asserting him-/herself in a group creates depression, frustration and stress, and also creates boundaries to professional success. So I don't think I'd use that as an example of Christlike behavior. And I don't see Jesus being particularly self-effacing in the Gospels; his focus may be on God, not on himself, but he asserts himself with this critics and otherwise "owns" who he is and what he does.
 
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :
 
What Lutheranchik said.

Perhaps the problem is that you can't imagine a situation where you yourself might be among the disadvantaged, South Coast Kevin. I can.

[ 27. December 2013, 22:19: Message edited by: Jane R ]
 
Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
What Lutheranchik said.

Perhaps the problem is that you can't imagine a situation where you yourself might be among the disadvantaged, South Coast Kevin. I can.
Well, being male I don't have the gender-based disadvantage that you've noted. But I'm really not a good self-promoter or networker; I can easily envisage that some achievement of mine has not been noted by the management.
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
[I]t's one thing to happily choose to be the quiet worker bee who takes care of things behind the scenes without expecting kudos, and someone whose serial lack of recognition for work done because s/he has difficulty asserting him-/herself in a group creates depression, frustration and stress, and also creates boundaries to professional success.
Yeah but... The way of Christ is to consider other people's needs above our own, isn't it? If this creates a boundary to professional success then I just see that as one of the sacrifices that following Jesus might entail.

If it's depression, frustration and stress, well that's difficult... I acknowledge again that this isn't black and white - there's no obvious dichotomy between assertiveness and craving recognition - but if someone is struggling to follow some instruction of Christ (pick any of his instructions that there's little dispute about), would we say they shouldn't try to follow it if that effort is causing them pain? That can't be the answer, can it?
 
Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :
 
Kevin, I know at least one pastor who also has a social-work degree, who would absolutely disagree with you that Jesus wants/expects any of us to tolerate work-based situational depression and simply "offer it up." That sounds suspiciously like the Christian radio station program I listened to (under duress) once where a female domestic abuse victim was counseled by a "family expert" to quietly endure her physical abuse and simply pray about it. I call bullshit on that and its variations.
 
Posted by Niteowl (# 15841) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
People aren't really saying that not retaliating, and not taking credit for one's achievements, are uniquely Christian, and will raise eyebrows, are they?

Gulp, double gulp, actually. Where have you been living?
The not retaliating or acting in kind to colleagues who stab you in the back generally leads to people asking you why you don't, which for me leads to my relationship with Christ. Sadly I've worked around many Christians who do react in kind so the next question is why am I different which leads me to giving specifically biblical answers. Not to mention, in my experience those Christians who respond to backstabbing by backstabbing in kind are the same ones who constantly push their version of Christianity on others, so this also raises a few eyebrows/curiosity.
 
Posted by The5thMary (# 12953) on :
 
Many years ago a co-worker said to me: "Have you found Jesus?!"

I smiled sweetly and replied, "I didn't know He was missing! Last time He went missing someone found Him hiding behind the couch!". Co-worker gave me a positively evil look and walked away, muttering under his breath about "godless heathens". It was great!
 
Posted by Squirrel (# 3040) on :
 
I'm a social worker in a government office, and mentioning our own religious beliefs is very frowned upon, although clients often ask us about them.

The issue as I understand it comes down to matters of power and authority. People typically come to social workers in a state of vulnerability. They also often see us as authority figures. There's an unequal distribution of power in the worker/client relationship. To exploit that by "witnessing" to clients who are vulnerable is unfair.
 
Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Kevin, I know at least one pastor who also has a social-work degree, who would absolutely disagree with you that Jesus wants/expects any of us to tolerate work-based situational depression and simply "offer it up." That sounds suspiciously like the Christian radio station program I listened to (under duress) once where a female domestic abuse victim was counseled by a "family expert" to quietly endure her physical abuse and simply pray about it. I call bullshit on that and its variations.
I also call bullshit on domestic abuse victims being told to stay in their abusive relationships, no doubt about it. But I don't accept your analogy with the situation I'm talking about, sorry.

It seems the direct parallel would be if someone left their job because the lack of recognition was making them miserable / depressed, and I'd have no argument with that course of action. I suppose I'm saying that our actions in the workplace should always be focused on helping the whole team to be more successful, rather than there being any focus on my own advancement.

So if you (general 'you') think the work is suffering because your skills and successes aren't being noticed then, fine, point it out. But otherwise, I wonder if keeping quiet might be the Christ-like thing.
 
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :
 
Niteowl:
quote:
The not retaliating or acting in kind to colleagues who stab you in the back generally leads to people asking you why you don't, which for me leads to my relationship with Christ.
Where did I advocate stabbing people in the back or kicking them when they're down? I wouldn't do that either. But there must be a happy medium between being the office backstabber and rolling over and playing dead for the office bullies, which is what SCK seems to be suggesting.

I wish I worked in your company, or Kevin's. Most places I used to work in would have seen a refusal to engage in backstabbing as a sign of weakness.
 
Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
I wish I worked in your company, or Kevin's. Most places I used to work in would have seen a refusal to engage in backstabbing as a sign of weakness.
My basic point is that we should be unconcerned as to our own reputation. If refusing to engage in backstabbing marks us out as weak in our particular work culture (or any other sphere of life, for that matter) then so be it. Likewise, IMO, if refusing to seek credit for ourselves (even when to do so would be fair in the world's eyes) marks us out as a pushover or contributes to us missing out on career advancement then, again, so be it. It's just part of taking up our cross and following Jesus, ISTM.
 
Posted by Niteowl (# 15841) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Niteowl:
quote:
The not retaliating or acting in kind to colleagues who stab you in the back generally leads to people asking you why you don't, which for me leads to my relationship with Christ.
Where did I advocate stabbing people in the back or kicking them when they're down? I wouldn't do that either. But there must be a happy medium between being the office backstabber and rolling over and playing dead for the office bullies, which is what SCK seems to be suggesting.

I wish I worked in your company, or Kevin's. Most places I used to work in would have seen a refusal to engage in backstabbing as a sign of weakness.
Likewise, what did I say about rolling over and playing dead? I'm generally exercise wisdom around those I work with, especially those I know who are known backstabbers. I've been backstabbed by a few I misjudged, but never more than once and I continued to treat them nicely, but drove them nuts because they couldn't succeed in their mission - which was getting rid of me. I've been treated like shit to my face and those people I continue to treat nicely, but don't leave any holes that would affect my employment. I've made a few friends out of enemies over the years, had to ignore the few who just like being assholes. I refused to lower myself to their level and in so doing have earned the respect of most of my colleagues. Especially those that matter. I've had only 2 places of employment where the bosses were total asshats and I bided my time until I got another job, careful not to burn bridges that might come back to bite me. Frankly, responding without resorting to the world's tactics is operating in strength, not weakness.
 
Posted by JoannaP (# 4493) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
If it's OK to complain about them taking credit which is due to others, surely it's OK to complain about them taking credit that's due to you?
I think there's a difference; the former line of action is about sticking up for the disadvantaged, while the latter is about sticking up for ourselves. I think the former is always a Christ-like thing to do but the latter might not be.
We are commanded to love our neighbour AS ourselves - not more than. I don't see why we should not stick up for ourselves; we should not permit any person loved by God and created in His image to be treated as worthless.
Apart from anything else, I am not sure that it is healthy for the group if one person is allowed to take credit from others - or indeed, if it is healthy for the person being allowed to do the taking.
 
Posted by Chamois (# 16204) on :
 
Originally posted by JoannaP:
quote:
We are commanded to love our neighbour AS ourselves - not more than. I don't see why we should not stick up for ourselves; we should not permit any person loved by God and created in His image to be treated as worthless.
Rabbi Hillel used to say, "If I am not for myself, who will be for me? But if I am only for myself, what am I?"
That's always seemed to me to strike a good balance regarding love for oneself and one's neighbour.
 
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
I know someone who worked in a bookshop (national chain so v secular) and wouldn't witness by talking as such, but would leave leaflets proselytizing in copies of The God Delusion. I was profoundly uncomfortable with that.
 
Posted by Pa'Looka (# 17917) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
What Lutheranchik said.

Perhaps the problem is that you can't imagine a situation where you yourself might be among the disadvantaged, South Coast Kevin. I can.
Well, being male I don't have the gender-based disadvantage that you've noted. But I'm really not a good self-promoter or networker; I can easily envisage that some achievement of mine has not been noted by the management.
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
t's one thing to happily choose to be the quiet worker bee who takes care of things behind the scenes without expecting kudos, and someone whose serial lack of recognition for work done because s/he has difficulty asserting him-/herself in a group creates depression, frustration and stress, and also creates boundaries to professional success.
Yeah but... The way of Christ is to consider other people's needs above our own, isn't it? If this creates a boundary to professional success then I just see that as one of the sacrifices that following Jesus might entail.

Needs? When did taking credit for someone else's work become a human need?
 


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