|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: "PC gone mad" gone mad?
|
Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
|
Posted
Taking a tangent from Heaven to Purgatory. K:LB said:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I have quite a thin sense of humour about these, because I think that the "Elf and Safety" and "PC gone mad" memes propagated by the right wing press are actually quite dangerous.
And I'm minded to agree, except I'm a little more equal opportunities in who I blame. I've certainly never encountered any conversation in which the use of the term "politically correct" furthers dialog.
One way the term gets used is to denigrate well-meaning attempts (which may or may not be well thought through) at avoiding needless offence and perpetuating stereotypes. Sometimes, this is simply a mean-spirited label applied by someone who can't cope with encountering someone more compassionate than them. At other times, it's a lazy short hand for why a particular attempt is actually misguided.
Another way it's used is to try to get others to stop using a phrase perceived as problematic (which may or may not actually be), but in such a vague yet pseudo-objective way as to be totally ineffective.
Has anyone ever heard the phrase 'politically correct' used usefully?
--------------------
Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
|
Posted
I don't think "politically correct" is the politically correct way to refer to being politically correct.
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
Has anyone ever heard the phrase 'politically correct' used usefully?
No. In my experience it is a term used by racists/sexists/heterosexists/etc. to denigrate in advance anybody who might call them on their assholity.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
|
Posted
I've heard the term used by people as a positive description of their own views. In some cases, the speaker didn't seem aware that the word, in the current era(*), was originally used as a pejorative.
In other cases, the speaker did seem aware of the term's original usage, but was going along with it, playfully or semi-playfully.
(*) My understanding is that the prior to the 90s, the term was sometimes used by left-wingers themselves. sometimes as a complimentary description of their own opinions, sometimes disparagingly about others.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
My understanding is that the prior to the 90s, the term was sometimes used by left-wingers themselves. sometimes as a complimentary description of their own opinions, sometimes disparagingly about others.
I can only ever recall it being used in a dismissive way...
--------------------
"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
|
Posted
Well, according to wikipedia, there were positive usages prior to the early 90s. But also that the left almost immediately began using the term as "self-satire".
For some reason, I had the idea that the term originated during the Chinese Cultural Revolution, but wiki doesn't say anything about that. Maybe some of the people who used it were western Maoists, I dunno.
[ 27. December 2013, 20:17: Message edited by: Stetson ]
--------------------
I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
|
Posted
Really can't see it!
--------------------
"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
Really can't see it!
Well, are you basing this on how the term has been used since the early 90s? Because, the connotations changed irreversibly at that point.
You don't see people nowadays describing themselves as "fascist", even if they advocate suspending all civil-liberties and locking up all immigrants. In fact, the word is so discredited, people who are essentially fascist use it to describe their opponents(eg. "I wanna see all these fascist Muslims locked in concentration camps!!) But the word WAS used in a self-complimentary manner at one time(albeit quite some time ago).
And yes, I do clearly recall at least one public-speaker using "politically correct" to describe her views. She was an artist, and probably not the most ideologically sophisticated person, and I think she had heard it used to to describe left-wingers so many times, she thought it was a neutral term.
--------------------
I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
|
Posted
PC has many aspects, but one is to control the way in which words are used, so they get a meaning that favours a point of view. And this can be used to widen the meaning if words like theft, torture, obscenity, rape etc and sometimes to narrow them. You are meant to conform to the current usage, if you want to fit in.
This is an important battleground, because controlling definitions is a large part of winning arguments. And we all know how many arguments on the Ship are really about definitions.
--------------------
Schnuffle schnuffle.
Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
|
Posted
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
Really can't see it!
quote:
Well, are you basing this on how the term has been used since the early 90s?
In personal terms, probably.
Originally posted by Stetson:
Because, the connotations changed irreversibly at that point.
I can't see that in the Wikipedia article you quoted. The term seems always to have been used in, at least, a self-critical fashion?
[ 27. December 2013, 20:55: Message edited by: Garasu ]
--------------------
"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Squirrel
Shipmate
# 3040
|
Posted
I first saw the term "Politically Correct" in the Acknowledgements section of a book written by a Marxist. The author thanked his editor for making sure that his book was PC as well as factually correct. Indeed, the only folks I've met who use the term positively and with straight faces have been Marxists.
--------------------
"The moral is to the physical as three is to one."
- Napoleon
"Five to one."
- George S. Patton
Posts: 1014 | From: Gotham City - Brain of the Great Satan | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
An die Freude
Shipmate
# 14794
|
Posted
I think that Political Correctness as a concept does indeed exist in some ways. I think the way to control political language that anteater described is one degree of this concept.
Another one is that some opinions are met with knee-jerk reactions rather than intellectual debate, largely whenever they are raised in public. The poli sci professor Henrik Oscarsson, who specializes in elections and polls, is largely considered an unbiased voice of (political) science in Sweden. In a recent blog post (in Swedish), he lists a couple of ideas that are relatively frequent among the population of Sweden, but that are almost entirely neglected in Swedish public discussion. It would be difficult for me to prove to a foreign audience, naturally, but the cases he cite are largely accurate - the opinion for example that Sweden should start using capital punishment for murder is held by 20 % of the Swedish population but would be decreed as barbaric by nearly all forms of media representatives and has not been raised/represented seriously in my lifetime.
Oscarsson adds that of course idiotic ideas have to be neglected sometimes, but that the "corridor of opinions", the "buffer zone where you can hold and express an opinion without instantly receiving a diagnose of your mental condition", is getting so narrow that even traditional socialist, conservative or liberal discussions or opinions become considered or called out as dangerous. I would not know about the "corridor of opinions" in other countries, but I would say it is rather thin in Sweden, and that that leads to a political correctness where the corridor is enforced by the collective and people are socialised rather than argued into agreeing.
--------------------
"I too am not a bit tamed, I too am untranslatable."
Walt Whitman
Formerly JFH
Posts: 851 | From: Proud Socialist Monarchy of Sweden | Registered: May 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
|
Posted
Stetson/Garasu exchange:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Because, the connotations changed irreversibly at that point.
I can't see that in the Wikipedia article you quoted.
The article quotes William Safire as quoting a feminist as saying...
quote:
"A man cannot be politically correct and a chauvinist too".
Presumably, being a feminist, tbis woman wants men to be non-chauvinist, and hence politically correct.
But usage of the term is so infrequent pre-1990s, it's probably not really possible to dicern a meaningful trend.
[ 28. December 2013, 02:38: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Squirrel:
I first saw the term "Politically Correct" in the Acknowledgements section of a book written by a Marxist. The author thanked his editor for making sure that his book was PC as well as factually correct. Indeed, the only folks I've met who use the term positively and with straight faces have been Marxists.
People sometimes describe themselves in ways that are meant to be simultaneously self-deprecating and self-flattering. For example, I once saw footage of Richard Nixon introducing a clean-cut singing group, and he said something like "They might be a little square, but I like it square". On the one hand, he was using a derogatory term for old-fashioned, while also signalling to his audience that he was indeed a man of old-fashioned tastes.
Could that possibly be how the Marxist was using "politically correct" in that intro? Or was he really that tone-deaf to nuance that he was pouring it straight with no chaser?
--------------------
I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
I'm not sure what either Chinese or Swedish experiences have to do with the usage and meaning of a phrase in the English language.
And in English "PC" is a slogan used by right-wingers as an insult and has been almost entirely used that way since at least the 1980s, maybe the 1970s. If Wikipedia says different, then Wikipedia is wrong.
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
|
Posted
quote:
And in English "PC" is a slogan used by right-wingers as an insult and has been almost entirely used that way since at least the 1980s, maybe the 1970s. If Wikipedia says different, then Wikipedia is wrong.
No, wikipedia isn't denying that, and neither am I. All the article is saying is that prior to the appropriation of the term by right-wingers in the early 90s(maybe the late 80s, depending how you remember it), there were usages of it in English that were positive.
I'm certainly not arguing that it should be taken as a positive descriptor these days. In fact, I personally avoid using it, except when quoting others, because I regard it as highly loaded terminology.
[ 28. December 2013, 04:19: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
|
Posted
I first encountered the term in the early 1980's in London feminist circles.
It was an "import" brought by Socialist (SWP, etc) wimmin. It was used sparingly but as "not politically correct" by them then.
The contemporary usages annoy me (unless it is self-satire or good-humoured joshing amongst friends (comrades??!) late at night in a small dingy room...ahhhh ....memories)
--------------------
She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
Has anyone ever heard the phrase 'politically correct' used usefully?
Yes.
Take the term “nigger”.
Objections to its contemporary usage have nothing to do with “political correctness”, and everything to do with common decency.
However, bowdlerising it out of the works of Mark Twain can legitimately be described as political correctness – not to mention cultural vandalism.
There has been another case recently in Australia, concerning a well-known mascot adopted by WWII soldiers in the Middle East, who was known as Horrie The Wog Dog.
A new book about him, which has just come out, has renamed him Horrie The War Dog.
The word “wog” is quite rightly regarded as unacceptable today, but to misrepresent a historical incident, and the culture of which it was a part, out of political correctness, is also unacceptable.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
|
Posted
I first remember hearing the term in the early 1970s, when I hung out in radical circles. It was still being used with straight-faced earnestness by dogmatic Marxist-Leninists, but with eye-rolling sarcasm by everyone else on the left. The dogmatic M-Ls faded into obscurity shortly thereafter, and the term was adopted by right-wingers as a way of dismissing all complaints of oppression by groups other than White heterosexual male Christians.
Kaplan has a point about Huck Finn, however.
--------------------
When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
|
Posted
Kaplan:
You seem to be saying that the dviding line between basic decency and "political correctness" is when it passes into censorship or bowdlerization. But if that's what you think, you could just as easily call it censorship or bowdlerization, rather than an ideologically loaded term like "political correctness".
In my experience, the people who started using the phrase "political correctness" in the early 90s were not the types previously concerned with free-speech, textual integrity, or maintaining the historical record. You think any of them were objecting when high-school kids were handed editions of Shakespeare with the sexual passages chopped out? Or that their commintment to "free and open debate" included the right to burn an American flag?
There might have been a few libertarian purists on board, but for the most part, the original anti-PC brigade were just authoritarian conservatives who realized that openly advocating censorship was no longer fashionable, and so jumped on the "free speech" bandwagon, at least for rhetorical purposes.
It is because of this tainted ideological history that I personally find "politicallly correct" and allied phrases rather unpalatable, and prefer to use other ones to express the basic idea. If someone goes overboard in demanding that problematic words be banished from all speech and writing(eg. someone goes ballistic if you refer to firefighters as "firemen"), I might call them excessively sensitive. If people are advocating censorship of texts, films, etc, well, like I say, I just call that censorship.
[ 28. December 2013, 05:41: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
|
Posted
quote:
It was still being used with straight-faced earnestness by dogmatic Marxist-Leninists, but with eye-rolling sarcasm by everyone else on the left.
I think making jokes about MLers is a permanent fixture of left-wing self-amusement. My friends and I were still doing it in the late 1990s. There was just SO much fodder for laughs.
(I'm assuming by M-Ls you mean in the technical sense of anti-revisionists, ie. the guys who sided with China after de-stalinization?)
--------------------
I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
Has anyone ever heard the phrase 'politically correct' used usefully?
No. In my experience it is a term used by racists/sexists/heterosexists/etc. to denigrate in advance anybody who might call them on their assholity.
Sometimes. But also sometimes it is a needed caution to as hart said, badly thought out schemes
I doubt the authors of "Politically Correct Bedtime Stories" were racists, assists, or homophobes
The phenomenon does exist.
--------------------
"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
I doubt the authors of "Politically Correct Bedtime Stories" were racists, assists, or homophobes
Yes but they were using it self-consciously ironically.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
I first remember hearing the term in the early 1970s, when I hung out in radical circles. It was still being used with straight-faced earnestness by dogmatic Marxist-Leninists, but with eye-rolling sarcasm by everyone else on the left. The dogmatic M-Ls faded into obscurity shortly thereafter, and the term was adopted by right-wingers as a way of dismissing all complaints of oppression by groups other than White heterosexual male Christians.
Kaplan has a point about Huck Finn, however.
Here's another fine example, not far from where I grew up: Negro Mountain.
I do believe that some state politicians have tried to have the name of the mountain changed. Given that it was originally supposed to be a memorial to someone who died, I'm not sure how I feel about that.
--------------------
Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
Here's another fine example, not far from where I grew up: Negro Mountain.
I do believe that some state politicians have tried to have the name of the mountain changed. Given that it was originally supposed to be a memorial to someone who died, I'm not sure how I feel about that.
Bit of a mixed bag, that mountain.
Other nearby features:
Baughman Spring
Mount Davis
Boardman Ridge
Glade Mountain
Roberts Lake
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
You seem to be saying that the dviding line between basic decency and "political correctness" is when it passes into censorship or bowdlerization.
What I am saying is that there is a huge spectrum.
At one end, accusations of PC are obviously an excuse for gratuitous offensiveness, while at the other, PC is just as obviously a perfectly legitimate term for criticizing silly, petty, ideological fastidiousness.
In between, there are countless ambiguous cases about which the question of PC is going to be a matter of subjective opinion.
Orgies of group-think rectitude, such as we have seen on the Ship previously, in which everyone agrees with everyone else that any use whatsoever of the term PC is beyond the pale, have to be taken with a huge grain of salt – they suggest a fear of the subversive, uppity common people using PC to thumb their noses at their moralistic, NYT/Guarniad-reading cultural betters.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
|
Posted
Do you mean "Grauniad"
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
Do you mean "Grauniad"
Or Draniaug, or Nuagidran.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
|
Posted
Let me postulate this:
Whatever the history and meandering story of how we got here...
Political Correctness is a myth
It is the postulated oppression that people are revolting against. It is a construct to enable racist, sexist, homophobes (or whatever else fits here) to pretend they are a)not these things and b)being oppressed.
For me there are two things I really, really want to know:
1) What number you dial to get the PC Brigade
and 2) What uniforms they wear...
AFZ
--------------------
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
1) What number you dial to get the PC Brigade
020 7527 2000
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
Has anyone ever heard the phrase 'politically correct' used usefully?
Yes.
Take the term “nigger”.
Objections to its contemporary usage have nothing to do with “political correctness”, and everything to do with common decency.
However, bowdlerising it out of the works of Mark Twain can legitimately be described as political correctness – not to mention cultural vandalism.
I'm not sure your example really addresses my question. Let's assume that issuing edited versions of Twain's works with "nigger" replaced by other words is vandalism. Then, it would seem sensible to oppose vandalism as vandalism, to give reasons why meddling with an author's text is problematic. But, do you in any way further discourse with either the editors in questions or potential purchasers of the work by labeling it 'politically correct?'
You haven't given any reason why use of that phrase would make your argument more persuasive. To me, it seems to substantially dilute it. For one, calling something wrong because it is, in some sense, 'correct' seems an odd perversion of the plain meaning of the English language. Vandalism, if you will.
--------------------
Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
Has anyone ever heard the phrase 'politically correct' used usefully?
Yes.
Take the term “nigger”.
Objections to its contemporary usage have nothing to do with “political correctness”, and everything to do with common decency.
However, bowdlerising it out of the works of Mark Twain can legitimately be described as political correctness – not to mention cultural vandalism.
I'm not sure your example really addresses my question. Let's assume that issuing edited versions of Twain's works with "nigger" replaced by other words is vandalism. Then, it would seem sensible to oppose vandalism as vandalism, to give reasons why meddling with an author's text is problematic. But, do you in any way further discourse with either the editors in questions or potential purchasers of the work by labeling it 'politically correct?'
You haven't given any reason why use of that phrase would make your argument more persuasive. To me, it seems to substantially dilute it. For one, calling something wrong because it is, in some sense, 'correct' seems an odd perversion of the plain meaning of the English language. Vandalism, if you will.
I think you've articulated what I was trying to get at earlier, ie. in discussions of PC, there is often a conflation of two things. On the one hand, censorship and bowdlerization, and on the other, oversensitivity to the supposedly offensive properties of art, texts etc.
If bowdlerizing a text is always wrong, then it's wrong whether we're talking about taking "nigger" out of Huckleberry Finn, or removing the sexual puns from Hamlet. But only the former gets tarred with the word "political correctness".
Which might be okay, if the critic in question was only concerned about the hypersensitivity aspect, not with the bowdlerization aspect. But many of them present their arguments in such a way as to indicate that, for them, the excision of the texts is a pivotal issue.
[ 29. December 2013, 15:31: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Russ
Old salt
# 120
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
One way the term gets used is to denigrate well-meaning attempts (which may or may not be well thought through) at avoiding needless offence and perpetuating stereotypes...
...At other times, it's a lazy short hand for why a particular attempt is actually misguided.
I'd suggest that the term is useful precisely insofar as it is shorthand for a particular behaviour which would otherwise be cumbersome to describe. Isn't that why new words catch on ?
The behaviour being mocked by the term "political correctness" is not usually about avoiding offence in one's own speech. Is anyone going to raise an eyebrow if you talk about "firefighters" ? Particularly in a context like the Ship, where posters may be from Australia or Canada or elsewhere in the world and minor variations in English usage are expected.
The term mocks people who commit the philosophical error of thinking that established words or phrases that they have come to consider as demeaning to particular classes of people are objectively so. And who as a result have the bad manners to try to impose their usage on others on spurious grounds of what is or is not "socially acceptable". The sort of person who earnestly explains to others that you're not allowed to say "fireman" any more.
If there's a more accurate and natural shorthand term for this particular type of behaviour, thus making "political correctness" redundant, please do feel free to suggest what it might be.
Best wishes,
Russ
--------------------
Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Russ:
The term mocks people who commit the philosophical error of thinking that established words or phrases that they have come to consider as demeaning to particular classes of people are objectively so. And who as a result have the bad manners to try to impose their usage on others on spurious grounds of what is or is not "socially acceptable". The sort of person who earnestly explains to others that you're not allowed to say "fireman" any more.
If there's a more accurate and natural shorthand term for this particular type of behaviour, thus making "political correctness" redundant, please do feel free to suggest what it might be.
Best wishes,
Russ
That's fair as far as it goes.
My contention - and that of others, I suspect - is that the sort of behaviour you're describing is the minority. What's much more common I think (coz I've never heard anyone object to the term Fireman...) is that people say things like "You can't even call it 'Black coffee' any more..." which is patently untrue. Similarly "The PC-brigade object when we [insert racist/homophobic comment here]..." That's not coz it's not PC it's because racism is racism.
Hence my view that PC-ness is predominately a myth - and self justification for vileness by painting oneself as oppressed.
AFZ
--------------------
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
|
Posted
When all firefighters were men, calling them firemen was reasonable, even though it did preclude the thought that a woman might be a firefighter. When women did become firefighters, calling those that did 'firemen' was objectively wrong, and we called them 'lady firemen' or 'lady firefighters'. No reason at all not to call them collectively firefighters now, because it avoids the uglier 'firemen and women'.
In the same way, policeman has morphed into police officer, and ambulance man into paramedic. Language changes - if it changes so that it's more accurate, inclusive and less likely to give offence, the best conclusion to reach of those who don't use that language is that they want to be inaccurate, exclusive and give offence. I know to pay their ideas little attention as a consequence.
--------------------
Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
When all firefighters were men, calling them firemen was reasonable, even though it did preclude the thought that a woman might be a firefighter. When women did become firefighters, calling those that did 'firemen' was objectively wrong, and we called them 'lady firemen' or 'lady firefighters'. No reason at all not to call them collectively firefighters now, because it avoids the uglier 'firemen and women'.
In the same way, policeman has morphed into police officer, and ambulance man into paramedic. Language changes - if it changes so that it's more accurate, inclusive and less likely to give offence, the best conclusion to reach of those who don't use that language is that they want to be inaccurate, exclusive and give offence. I know to pay their ideas little attention as a consequence.
That's of course one view. There's another view that says that '-man' can include both sexes. Obviously one you don't agree with, but it seems to me that decrying those who hold that view as intending to cause offence is possibly as wrong-headed (if not more wrong-headed) as saying that all who take the view that you have outlined are 'politically correct'.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
|
Posted
I know I've mentioned this here before, so apologies to those who have seen it, but re -men, while I won't scold anyone who does use it, I've tried to stop saying it ever since my three year old daughter asked me why most stories and songs were about boys. It may not have confused me, but men as default had left her living in a palpably unfair world. I could have explained that people say men when they mean women too, and maybe I did mention that, but I certainly promised to try to change things. She asked, but such assumptions can be insidious, perhaps particularly to children.
--------------------
A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
ambulance man into paramedic.
In this country, at least, there is a huge difference between a paramedic and an ambulance driver/attendant. The latter did not perform any first aid nor were they trained in lifesaving procedures; their job was merely to transport.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
Here's another fine example, not far from where I grew up: Negro Mountain.
I do believe that some state politicians have tried to have the name of the mountain changed. Given that it was originally supposed to be a memorial to someone who died, I'm not sure how I feel about that.
Some time ago one of Liverpool's city councillors proposed renaming all the streets in the city that are named after slavers. Unfortunately such slavers included a certain James Penny, who gave his name to a lane somewhere or other, and this rather hampered the scheme ...
--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
That's of course one view. There's another view that says that '-man' can include both sexes. Obviously one you don't agree with, but it seems to me that decrying those who hold that view as intending to cause offence is possibly as wrong-headed (if not more wrong-headed) as saying that all who take the view that you have outlined are 'politically correct'.
No, that's such errant nonsense as to be simply pig-ignorant of the fact that women aren't men and don't want to be called that. I mean, seriously? Have you asked a woman police officer if she minds being called a policeman? I suspect you'd think it a slightly dangerous question - in which case, why not do the right thing and refer to her by her preferred title?
I can understand it in someone over 50 - that's the world they grew up in. Anyone under that who uses your argument is either a rogue or a fool.
--------------------
Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
ambulance man into paramedic.
In this country, at least, there is a huge difference between a paramedic and an ambulance driver/attendant. The latter did not perform any first aid nor were they trained in lifesaving procedures; their job was merely to transport.
In the UK, I think I'm right in saying that all NHS emergency ambulance staff are paramedics. Whatever, I don't question their credentials (or their sex) while they're scraping me off the tarmac...
--------------------
Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
No, that's such errant nonsense as to be simply pig-ignorant of the fact that women aren't men and don't want to be called that. I mean, seriously?
Lots of women are happy to be called, for example, 'Chairman'.
quote:
Have you asked a woman police officer if she minds being called a policeman? I suspect you'd think it a slightly dangerous question - in which case, why not do the right thing and refer to her by her preferred title?
If one were speaking to, or about, a specific WPC then I agree one wouldn't use 'policeman'. I was thinking more about how one might refer to a class of people generally.
[ 29. December 2013, 22:21: Message edited by: Anglican't ]
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
|
Posted
X-post, replying to Doc Tor
The term has changed from Ambulance man to ambulance crew. Of the two man crew at least one of them will be a trained paramedic.
[ 29. December 2013, 22:24: Message edited by: balaam ]
--------------------
Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
|
Posted
In my experience Political Correctness is a synonym for politeness. And used by two groups of people; firstly the left wing being slightly self-depracating, and secondly the right wing having temper tantrums about how you can't force them to be polite when they don't wanna. Or making up stories about things that are being misrepresented and calling them PC Gone Mad.
--------------------
My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
|
Posted
Question: should a female person who acts in stage or on screen be called an actor or an actress? Is calling her an actor wrong for using a male term to cover all sexes or is calling her an actress wrong because "actor" is the default term and using actress implies that what actresses do is different in some way from what actors do - as with priest/priestess or steward/stewardess?
This complication with waiter/waitress has led "server" to be the preferred term in restaurants here.
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
|
Posted
Yesterday we were standing around talking and drinking coffee after the service when one of our part-time pastors, who does some sort of clerical/admin work with a textiles firm, announced that he had rescued a pile of perfectly good pillow-cases and cushion covers which were being thrown out, and that any women who wanted them were free to take some.
When he said the word “women”, I muttered in mock shock/horror to the person next to me: “Gender specificity! Gender stereotyping!”
However, I am aware that someone could in fact quite justifiably criticize his language, on the grounds that many women are completely uninterested in interior decorating, and that some men are.
I am equally aware that someone else could just as justifiably counter this criticism by pointing out that the pastor knew the congregation well enough to be sure that there was not a single male present who was remotely interested in the products, and that any demand that he use inclusive language in that context would therefore be tedious, politically correct, ideological pedantry.
In other words, there is often a great deal of ambiguity when it comes to PC, so blanket demonisations of it, as well as as Pavlovian invocations of it, are both to be distrusted.
Intolerance of ambiguity is the classic definition of the authoritarian personality.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
If one were speaking to, or about, a specific WPC then I agree one wouldn't use 'policeman'. I was thinking more about how one might refer to a class of people generally.
You're a little behind the times, old bean! Female police officers haven't used the 'W' prefix in the UK since 1999.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
|
Posted
The act of political correctness exists.
E.g.
The word herstory is used by some people who want to focus on the history of females, because they suppose that all history is male focused. The word is used quite openly to correct a supposed gender-political wrong, across a whole field of study.
Now, does this excuse those who use the term PC as a form of get out jail free card for being unwilling to see another view point? Of course not.
But, to deny that people use language to correct supposed political wrongs is to equally attempt to use a get out of jail free card for the sake of a viewpoint.
--------------------
I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
The act of political correctness exists.
E.g.
The word herstory is used by some people who want to focus on the history of females, because they suppose that all history is male focused. The word is used quite openly to correct a supposed gender-political wrong, across a whole field of study.
Now, does this excuse those who use the term PC as a form of get out jail free card for being unwilling to see another view point? Of course not.
But, to deny that people use language to correct supposed political wrongs is to equally attempt to use a get out of jail free card for the sake of a viewpoint.
Thank you !
Also, not everyone who recognizes that the phenomenon exists is a political right winger as some have intimated on the thread
--------------------
"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
When all firefighters were men, calling them firemen was reasonable, even though it did preclude the thought that a woman might be a firefighter. When women did become firefighters, calling those that did 'firemen' was objectively wrong, and we called them 'lady firemen' or 'lady firefighters'. No reason at all not to call them collectively firefighters now, because it avoids the uglier 'firemen and women'.
In the same way, policeman has morphed into police officer, and ambulance man into paramedic. Language changes - if it changes so that it's more accurate, inclusive and less likely to give offence, the best conclusion to reach of those who don't use that language is that they want to be inaccurate, exclusive and give offence. I know to pay their ideas little attention as a consequence.
That's of course one view. There's another view that says that '-man' can include both sexes. Obviously one you don't agree with, but it seems to me that decrying those who hold that view as intending to cause offence is possibly as wrong-headed (if not more wrong-headed) as saying that all who take the view that you have outlined are 'politically correct'.
Whether one intended to cause offense is not exactly the point. What is the correct (i.e., civil) response when one finds one has unintentionally caused offense? Well, between equals it would be to apologize and to resolve not to repeat the offensive act. When one says, in effect, "I intended no offense, therefore your taking offense is not justified, and I can continue to do the same offensive thing and dismiss your objection as mere political correctness" one is implicitly stating that the offended party is not one's equal and has no standing to judge or criticize one's behavior. It amounts to White heterosexual male Christians claiming that they have the right to decide what is actually offensive, never mind what those darker-hued, female, sexually...different... non-Christian others actually find offensive. Because their opinion doesn't really count anyway.
--------------------
When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
