UBB.classicTM 6.5.0
quote:Sigh.
What difference does God make? About a year ago a friend and Episcopal priest, told me her atheist friend asked her this question. She found it harder to answer than she expected.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
quote:This suggests, to me at least, that Mudfrog believes that 'rarefied' or academic literature and other pursuits aren't for the ordinary person at all ... and what ordinary people (whoever they are) are interested in is the pub, the bar, sport, gardens and TV etc ...
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The literature, the events, the people are all 'highbrow', rarified and academic.
One wonders what an ordinary person would do because this experiment of his is certainly not the kind of thing an office worker, a shop assistant, a fire-fighter, would do.
A more authentic experiment would have been to say 'from today I am an atheist with no God and for him to fill his time going to bars, sports events, garden centres and playing with his family and watching TV.
quote:I agree. What he may also find is that the buck stops here. He'll have to take the ultimate responsibility for his own life and decisions; there won't be any miracles, maybe the odd coincidence, but nothing he can call on to help him out. It's himself or nothing.
Originally posted by Firenze:
I think he will find the imperatives he's hitherto lived by turn into ropes of sand. There is no code to everyday life, no hidden purpose to be second guessed. It is not about you. Enjoy what you can, endure what you must. Help others because we are all in this together and you may as well.
quote:I'd better tell my very working-class grandma not to go to any more of the literature festivals she really enjoys and to put down those poetry books, they're clearly not for the likes of her.
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
What strikes me is the sense that in 'removing' God he's actually filling the void and actively searching for people, literature, events, etc that are, albeit of an atheistic nature and identity, fulfilling the purpose of church and faith.
His attempt seems to me to be a luxury - he has education, money and choice. And it all seems rather self-indulgent. The literature, the events, the people are all 'highbrow', rarified and academic.
One wonders what an ordinary person would do because this experiment of his is certainly not the kind of thing an office worker, a shop assistant, a fire-fighter, would do.
A more authentic experiment would have been to say 'from today I am an atheist with no God and for him to fill his time going to bars, sports events, garden centres and playing with his family and watching TV.
It seems to me that what he has actually done is replace his former personal God with all the trappings of spirituality and introduce a cerebral god of the mind.
In actual fact he's merely taken on a different god.
quote:I'd allow the term "via media" to be used as it was originally intended; to describe Anglicanism as a midway point between Wittenberg and Geneva.
Originally posted by Zach82:
I think delivering a 30 minute sermon on the subject "What's the point, really?" to a panel of theologians should be a minimum requirement for ordination in TEC.
Automatic failure for using any of the following terms: apophatic theology, mystery, three-legged stool, via media, liberation theology, feminist theology, or Franciscan spirituality.
quote:Only use of the terms would constitute failure. Anyone knowing what they mean could of course describe the concepts with other words.
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
I'd allow the term "via media" to be used as it was originally intended; to describe Anglicanism as a midway point between Wittenberg and Geneva.
quote:Huh?
Originally posted by Garasu:
So for the ignorant?
quote:Judging by his experience the fountain of living waters has become a bit of an open sewer for him.
but frankly why would anyone in his right mind want to walk away from the fountain of living waters?
quote:I suspect that this is what he'd like happen. He's trying to force God's hand into providing convincing proofs of his existence. The sad thing about it is that he's acting like a spoilt adolescent who has vowed to live as if his parents don't exist while taking socks from the magic drawer each morning and pitching up for the food which just happens to appear on the table each night.
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
This chap is planning to write a book about his spiritual journey. Sounds like something that'll sell very well to both Christians and atheists, especially if the conclusion manages to be all things to all men.
I do kind of agree with EtymologicalEvangelical though - why would someone who's hungry for more of God want to spend a year without God? It seems counterintuitive. But I maybe this man feels that having lived in a godly bubble more or less all his life and still ended up in mess of confusion he has no option but to enter the lion's den. Maybe God will send an angel to save him.
quote:I'm not sure one can just stop believing in God. Either you think good reasons exist to believe in God, or you don't. If you do, you can't make those good reasons go away by sheer willpower.
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
A year without God?
What he means is: a year without believing in God.
quote:Oh, I have no doubt that he's throwing away the pearl of great price with this experiment of his. He's definitely greatly to be pitied. Though countless people in our day carry on without God and manage to lead, ostensibly, completely fulfilling lives, so I have to wonder what he's on about.
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I don't understand the vitriol from many on this thread. Surely the man is to be pitied? I mean, apart from the book, which will doubtless be a big seller. But to get to that level of dreary despair is dreadful.
quote:Not sure I understand where you are going with this.
Originally posted by daronmedway:
I suspect that God is going to miss Ryan a lot less than Ryan hopes.
quote:Same thing it means in yours or mine.
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
And if (for the sake of argument) the atheist position were true (whatever 'true' is supposed to mean in their philosophy),
quote:Belief should be open to question, this does not mean everyone need turn 180 to test the strength of their belief.
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
then everyone would go every year without God.
quote:Unshaken, rock solid faith or atheism? These are the only choices?
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
And thus going a year "without God" is merely equivalent to going "without belief in God", because all that is being done is an adjustment in the mind with the concomitant change in practice.
All very muddled, and, frankly, a waste of time. If this bloke is so concerned for truth, then it's simply a matter of assessing all positions objectively, not blocking out one option for any period of time.
Anyone for whom God is a living reality would not want to go even one millisecond without Him. Yeah, I know I may be flirting with the "No True Scotsman", but frankly why would anyone in his right mind want to walk away from the fountain of living waters? I know I'll probably be criticised for saying this, but AFAIAC, this former pastor is already an atheist.
quote:I would say, rather, that he is determining the worth of the pearl.
Originally posted by Zach82:
Oh, I have no doubt that he's throwing away the pearl of great price with this experiment of his.
quote:This.
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Pardon me for bringing down the tone, but it's only a physically healthy, relatively rich, first-world Christian who would assume they had a year to live, full stop - let alone a year in which they could live without God.
Hubris, hubris ...
quote:Agreed.
Originally posted by mousethief:
I'm not sure one can just stop believing in God. Either you think good reasons exist to believe in God, or you don't. If you do, you can't make those good reasons go away by sheer willpower.
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
There is no code to everyday life, no hidden purpose to be second guessed. It is not about you. Enjoy what you can, endure what you must. Help others because we are all in this together and you may as well.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
quote:So do you add 'if I live that long' to every reference you make to your putative future? Never "This afternoon I'll mow the lawn" always "This afternoon I'll mow the lawn if I live that long".
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Pardon me for bringing down the tone, but it's only a physically healthy, relatively rich, first-world Christian who would assume they had a year to live, full stop - let alone a year in which they could live without God.
Hubris, hubris ...
quote:Or as my granny used (continually) to say: if we're spared.
Originally posted by Boogie:
Several of my Muslim friends do. They add "Insha'Allah" (God willing) to any future plans.
quote:I haven't got a lawn.
Originally posted by que sais-je:
quote:So do you add 'if I live that long' to every reference you make to your putative future? Never "This afternoon I'll mow the lawn" always "This afternoon I'll mow the lawn if I live that long".
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Pardon me for bringing down the tone, but it's only a physically healthy, relatively rich, first-world Christian who would assume they had a year to live, full stop - let alone a year in which they could live without God.
Hubris, hubris ...
quote:Careful now. You're sounding a lot like a Calvinist.
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:Agreed.
Originally posted by mousethief:
I'm not sure one can just stop believing in God. Either you think good reasons exist to believe in God, or you don't. If you do, you can't make those good reasons go away by sheer willpower.
I don't think a person can believe in God by sheer willpower or disbelieve in God by willpower either.
These things go deeper than conscious decision imo.
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quote:Ah, that's the issue right there.
But I'm surprised that anyone who has been a Pastor has so ill thought-out his faith as to believe that the existence of God can be made the subject of an experiment.
quote:Actually no (well, at least when referring to the philosophy of naturalism, which I guess is what most atheists subscribe to).
Originally posted by lilBuddha
quote:Same thing it means in yours or mine.
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
And if (for the sake of argument) the atheist position were true (whatever 'true' is supposed to mean in their philosophy),
quote:Why the hell not? Why does God want to be so hard to believe in?
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:Ah, that's the issue right there.
But I'm surprised that anyone who has been a Pastor has so ill thought-out his faith as to believe that the existence of God can be made the subject of an experiment.
quote:I'm calling bullshit on this one. I think most people expect to be alive this time next year unless they have a specific reason to think that they won't be. Including people outside of the richest countries. Yes, they face different/greater health risks and challenges but they still have a pretty good chance of being alive next year, and would probably be pretty insulted by this idea that nobody but the richest expect to live very long. They may have other reasons for not wanting to do this kind of project, of course.
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Pardon me for bringing down the tone, but it's only a physically healthy, relatively rich, first-world Christian who would assume they had a year to live, full stop - let alone a year in which they could live without God.
quote:I think the SDA church is probably a little less of a hot-house religion than the JWs, anteater, though there are definitely elements within it that would like it to be MORE of a hot-house religion! I don't think in his previous position as a well-educated, well-read liberal Adventist pastor, Ryan Bell would have found anything unusual about reading atheist books, anymore than I would fine it unusual in my position as a well-read, well-educated liberal Adventist layperson. I think what's different here is his decision to immerse himself in that kind of reading/thinking for a year, without perhaps feeling the need to "balance" it with more Christian perspectives.
Originally posted by anteater:
Trudy Scrumptious:
Your comments are the more interesting because of your connection.
To me, it's still far from clear whether what he is doing is right or wrong, good or bad. Maybe that's because I would count SDA-ism as a sort of hot-house religion, and the effect of this will be greater on a religious professional. So I think it is a good idea to get out of that environment, because at the very least, I would expect his life to be different in a more main stream environment. Maybe I'm exaggerating about SDAs and projecting some of my experiences with the JWs.
So, for example, many, if not most, christians would view it as totally normal to read up on atheist literature. If he'd framed his experiment as being desisting from practicing what most would consider an extreme form of christianity, in order to see how much of his faith remains, (now he's not obligated by his immediate society), I would say that's not a bad idea.
But I'm surprised that anyone who has been a Pastor has so ill thought-out his faith as to believe that the existence of God can be made the subject of an experiment.
quote:You know of other supreme beings who are less elusive?
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Most of the last twenty years feels like I've spent it without God whether I want to or not, frankly. Most elusive supreme being I know of.
quote:'Twas a mere figure of speech.
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:You know of other supreme beings who are less elusive?
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Most of the last twenty years feels like I've spent it without God whether I want to or not, frankly. Most elusive supreme being I know of.
quote:When I see comments along these lines, I can't help wondering whether those who think like this imagine that everything we associate with nature and life can somehow operate totally independently of God, and that He is just a kind of "added extra" to give some further dose of peace, joy etc. When there is no or little experience of this putative "added extra", then it is assumed that God is being elusive, or that He even does not exist. However, the basic presupposition is wrong. Nothing can function without God: not reason, nature, morality, well-being, sanity, consciousness etc...
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider
Most of the last twenty years feels like I've spent it without God whether I want to or not, frankly. Most elusive supreme being I know of.
quote:I'd suggest that there certainly are spiritual beings - who are very happy to masquerade as Supreme - who'll turn up at the merest sniff of spiritual desperation.
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:You know of other supreme beings who are less elusive?
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Most of the last twenty years feels like I've spent it without God whether I want to or not, frankly. Most elusive supreme being I know of.
quote:Because he wants to test to genuineness of your faith? Either that or he's disciplining you. Or both. Or something else. Who knows? I couldn't work out why the five last years of my life have been so horrible until after I'd moved to another place and taken on another job. I realised after the event that God had been disciplining me quite severely.
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:Why the hell not? Why does God want to be so hard to believe in?
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:Ah, that's the issue right there.
But I'm surprised that anyone who has been a Pastor has so ill thought-out his faith as to believe that the existence of God can be made the subject of an experiment.
quote:I can't quite understand that, according to your theology. Couldn't the sovereign God just issue an irresistible decree for you to be delivered from all shortcomings?
Originally posted by daronmedway
I realised after the event that God had been disciplining me quite severely.
quote:You're right, you don't understand it.
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:I can't quite understand that, according to your theology. Couldn't the sovereign God just issue an irresistible decree for you to be delivered from all shortcomings?
Originally posted by daronmedway
I realised after the event that God had been disciplining me quite severely.
quote:No, I don't think it's that.
Or perhaps it's a case that a doctrine that seems to work well on paper doesn't quite cut it in real life?
quote:If by God you mean reality or the Universe in a Panentheist sense or something like the Tao, then you have a point.
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
So God undoubtedly shows up many times in the lives of those who claim He doesn't. They just don't (can't or won't) discern this.
quote:Perhaps as Pierre Bayle suggested, he breaks your legs just to prove his goodness by healing them.
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Because he wants to test to genuineness of your faith? Either that or he's disciplining you. Or both. Or something else. Who knows? I couldn't work out why the five last years of my life have been so horrible until after I'd moved to another place and taken on another job. I realised after the event that God had been disciplining me quite severely.
quote:Oh for the love of Pete...
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Then explain.
If you can...
quote:This type of statement makes meaningful discussion difficult.
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Popular science can say what it likes about the self-sufficiency of nature, but false thinking blinds the mind... and the spirit.
quote:You'll be pleased to hear that they've also been conspicuous by their absence, then.
Originally posted by daronmedway:
quote:I'd suggest that there certainly are spiritual beings - who are very happy to masquerade as Supreme - who'll turn up at the merest sniff of spiritual desperation.
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:You know of other supreme beings who are less elusive?
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Most of the last twenty years feels like I've spent it without God whether I want to or not, frankly. Most elusive supreme being I know of.
quote:Well you follow a strong religious tradition in echoing the words of Isaiah "truly you are a God who hides yourself".
Most of the last twenty years feels like I've spent it without God whether I want to or not, frankly. Most elusive supreme being I know of.
quote:I would echo this. Drawing a parallel with the recent thread in Ecclesiantics, I would say that part of the normal experience of remaining a Christian is engaging in all those practices which build and preserve faith.
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
It seems a daft experiment to me and one that is likely to lead to a foregone conclusion or self-fulfilling prophecy ... ie. 'I can live without God.'
In which case, he'll get what he wants.
...but if we set out to live without God then we'll live without God - or at least without the consciousness that he 'is' irrespective whether we believe in Him or not.
quote:Is this the god who leaves the 99 sheep to find the stray one, or some other god?
Originally posted by daronmedway:
I suspect that God is going to miss Ryan a lot less than Ryan hopes.
quote:I don't read his blog entry as saying he's trying to prove or disprove the existence of God with his experiment; more to see if atheism fits him, and what he'll be like and think like at the end of the year. He is the object of the experiment, not God.
Originally posted by anteater:
But I'm surprised that anyone who has been a Pastor has so ill thought-out his faith as to believe that the existence of God can be made the subject of an experiment.
quote:I don't know if you were throwing this off in jest, but it seems to me the most profound post on the entire thread. God does indeed seem to want to make it hard to believe in Her; why should that be?
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Why does God want to be so hard to believe in?
quote:But why can't they discern it? That's the issue. It's patronizing as all Hell to assert that they could if they wanted to. Many people on the Ship (self included) have said they would love just a little inkling of God's existence or working in this world to be vouchsafed them. Why should God hid herself so effectively to some, and make herself so obvious to others (as they claim and I have no a priori reason to doubt them)?
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
So God undoubtedly shows up many times in the lives of those who claim He doesn't. They just don't (can't or won't) discern this.
quote:Faith in what? You can't have your faith tested until you HAVE faith. Karl's question applies equally to someone who has faith and is struggling to continue in it, and someone who does not have faith and sees no reason to, because God has made it so hard. To start having faith you need some reason to decide to have faith in this god or that one; the marketplace of ideas doesn't present a simple dichotomy between Yahweh and no god at all. Oh no.
Originally posted by daronmedway:
quote:Because he wants to test to genuineness of your faith?
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Why does God want to be so hard to believe in?
quote:Well, yes. obviously. If we are pretending to believe in God, and stop pretending, then we will be open about the fact that we don't.
You mean if we stop pretending to ourselves we believe in God, then soon we openly won't?
quote:Aping the Supreme is their speciality.
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:You'll be pleased to hear that they've also been conspicuous by their absence, then.
Originally posted by daronmedway:
quote:I'd suggest that there certainly are spiritual beings - who are very happy to masquerade as Supreme - who'll turn up at the merest sniff of spiritual desperation.
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:You know of other supreme beings who are less elusive?
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Most of the last twenty years feels like I've spent it without God whether I want to or not, frankly. Most elusive supreme being I know of.
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I am even untouched by the noodly appendages of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
quote:(I assume you are responding to my post).
Originally posted by pimple
To say that there are those who wilfully refuse to discern what you discern does, I believe, provide an excellent reason for the likes of Richard Holloway to give up hope of any meaningful dialogue - with the likes of you at any rate. I guess that gives you more comfort than regret, but I may be wrong.
quote:You can call what you like. But whether we manage it or not, we're counselled to avoid smug self satisfaction. And I think that's what this is.
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
quote:I'm calling bullshit on this one. I think most people expect to be alive this time next year unless they have a specific reason to think that they won't be.
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Pardon me for bringing down the tone, but it's only a physically healthy, relatively rich, first-world Christian who would assume they had a year to live, full stop - let alone a year in which they could live without God.
quote:Thanks for not addressing the particular point I made.
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar
Oh for the love of Pete...
T-Total Depravity-Humans are so depraved that they cannot participate in their own salvation. We are free to sin. We are free to live good lives according to our own understanding. However, no life we live will be good enough to merit salvation.
U-Unconditional Election-From before time, God chose to save a certain number of elect. The elect did not merit salvation. God just decided that some would be saved. A liberal Calvinist would hold out the possibility that all would be saved. Other would say that not only did God predestine the elect to salvation but God predestined the preterite for damnation.
etc etc....
quote:No. Rather stopping talking to God for a year will probably have an analogous impact to stopping talking to your wife for a year.
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
You mean if we stop pretending to ourselves we believe in God, then soon we openly won't?
quote:Self-examination does not appear to be a common trait.
Originally posted by anteater:
The idea of "pretending to yourself" is a bit odd to me, though much ued. I actually wonder if many people are capable to pretend to themselves, although it may just be possible. I don't know.
I could pretend, for example, to enjoy the music of Pierre Boulez - maybe to get intellectual cred. The problem with pretending to myself is that I have insider knowledge, namely that I think it's a pain in the ears.
quote:You d realise this applies directly to religious conversations?
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
In the absence of evidence then you would be right: such dialogue would be impossible.
quote:What?! Not talking to a person for a year would be extremely wearing on that person. But God?!
Originally posted by chris stiles:
No. Rather stopping talking to God for a year will probably have an analogous impact to stopping talking to your wife for a year.
quote:But those appendages are so tasty! Besides, it's got pirates! How can one not love a religion with pirates?!
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I am even untouched by the noodly appendages of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
quote:If you stop talking to your spouse for a year, there might be other results besides the effect that it has on your spouse. It might affect you.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:What?! Not talking to a person for a year would be extremely wearing on that person. But God?!
Originally posted by chris stiles:
No. Rather stopping talking to God for a year will probably have an analogous impact to stopping talking to your wife for a year.
quote:Hardly. As scripture says: "Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened." (Mt 7:7-8) I "experimentally determine" the existence of my wife most days. Having a personal relationship with someone does not magically remove my ability to determine their existence experimentally. Rather, it generally makes is so easy as to make it a matter of course, rendering a dedicated effort mildly ridiculous.
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:Ah, that's the issue right there.
But I'm surprised that anyone who has been a Pastor has so ill thought-out his faith as to believe that the existence of God can be made the subject of an experiment.
quote:Whatever
originally posted by Etymological Evangelical:
Thanks for not addressing the particular point I made.
Let me give you a clue: predestination and sanctification (which your attempt at explaining 'P' manifestly failed to address - in the logic department, I mean).
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
quote:My wife talks back. I'm far from sure God does. Not the same.
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:No. Rather stopping talking to God for a year will probably have an analogous impact to stopping talking to your wife for a year.
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
You mean if we stop pretending to ourselves we believe in God, then soon we openly won't?
quote:See, I'd say that I know all that, but more often than not it's in the same way that I know Frodo took the One Ring to Mount Doom. The gap between knowledge and belief seems to be akin to the gap between something being true and something being real.
Originally posted by hugorune:
Yet, as one who knows, as a transcendent spirtual truth, that Christ was incarnate and died upon the cross, that my sins could be forgiven, I could never shudder. When you know that pure love surrounds you and holds you close, despite your own inadequacies and those of your fellow pilgrims, to ignore the gift of grace would be to turn your back on something infinitely more precious than all the material wealth on this earth - reconciliation with God and peace of the soul.
quote:Same God, different circumstances.
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:Is this the god who leaves the 99 sheep to find the stray one, or some other god?
Originally posted by daronmedway:
I suspect that God is going to miss Ryan a lot less than Ryan hopes.
quote:Faith in the God who has granted us everything we need for life and godliness made accessible through his promises even to the privilege of participation in his nature. However, we must make every effort to make our calling and election sure. How? By seeking God's grace, believing God's promises, and making an effort. If you stop making an effort it's a sign that you've forgotten the vital importance of having your sins have been forgiven. This guy is playing with hell fire.
quote:Faith in what? You can't have your faith tested until you HAVE faith. Karl's question applies equally to someone who has faith and is struggling to continue in it, and someone who does not have faith and sees no reason to, because God has made it so hard. To start having faith you need some reason to decide to have faith in this god or that one; the marketplace of ideas doesn't present a simple dichotomy between Yahweh and no god at all. Oh no.
Originally posted by daronmedway:
quote:Because he wants to test to genuineness of your faith?
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Why does God want to be so hard to believe in?
quote:God speaks primarily through scripture. We might not like what he says, but that's different issue. You could also pay attention to God communicating through the circumstances of your life, the voice of trusted friends (particularly Christian friends), the inner prompting of the Holy Spirit, and common sense reasoning. God communicates through them all.
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:My wife talks back. I'm far from sure God does. Not the same.
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:No. Rather stopping talking to God for a year will probably have an analogous impact to stopping talking to your wife for a year.
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
You mean if we stop pretending to ourselves we believe in God, then soon we openly won't?
quote:And if he finds no hell fire but a more satisfying, purposeful and helpful-to-others life?
Originally posted by daronmedway:
This guy is playing with hell fire.
quote:The Bible exists whether God does or not. There's no way to know that anything it says is God speaking. Life circumstances - humans are great at spotting patterns when none exist. Friends may offer good advice, but why would they be any more in touch with God than I am. Inner prompting of the Holy Spirit? Any way of telling that from an active imagination. Common sense unfortunately currently tells me this God business is a bit silly.
Originally posted by daronmedway:
quote:God speaks primarily through scripture. We might not like what he says, but that's different issue. You could also pay attention to God communicating through the circumstances of your life, the voice of trusted friends (particularly Christian friends), the inner prompting of the Holy Spirit, and common sense reasoning. God communicates through them all.
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:My wife talks back. I'm far from sure God does. Not the same.
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:No. Rather stopping talking to God for a year will probably have an analogous impact to stopping talking to your wife for a year.
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
You mean if we stop pretending to ourselves we believe in God, then soon we openly won't?
quote:Then allow me to call your bluff...
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar
Let me just say that for one who actually understands Calvinism and the actual meaning of logic what daronmedway originally said made perfect sense.
quote:So what? There are people in special wings of prisons who don't feel depraved. Feelings can be very deceptive.
Originally posted by George Spigot:
@Beeswaxalter "Total Depravity-Humans are so depraved..."
Speak for yourself. I don't feel depraved. At least not in a bad way.
quote:Are you accusing George of anything then?
Originally posted by daronmedway
So what? There are people in special wings of prisons who don't feel depraved. Feelings can be very deceptive.
quote:I think that this guy's experiment is more along the lines of "Hey, let's see what happens if I take all vitamin D out of my diet." Which becomes all the more dangerous when, unlike rickets, feelings of God's grace or what have you are fantastically subjective and unreliable. Many who think they have it actually lack it, and many who think they lack it actually have it.
Originally posted by IngoB:
Hardly. As scripture says: "Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened." (Mt 7:7-8) I "experimentally determine" the existence of my wife most days. Having a personal relationship with someone does not magically remove my ability to determine their existence experimentally. Rather, it generally makes is so easy as to make it a matter of course, rendering a dedicated effort mildly ridiculous.
The guy linked to in the OP is precisely not conducting an experiment to determine the existence of God though. Rather, he has decided to not knock - indeed, run away from the door - and see what happens. It's as if the crew of CERN decided to have a year long holiday in the Caribbean and wondered whether the Higgs boson will show up at the swimming pool.
The real issue here from a "scientific" point of view, as relevant to Karl's tangent, is however how one can knock and how one can tell that it has been opened. In short, we have a Divine guarantee that every proper experiment will be successful, however, we are much less sure what is proper in this context. There are major issues of experimental design here. Or even worse, uncertainty about the very experimental questions we are trying to ask. Churches are largely geared to cater to those who have walked through the opened doors, or believe to have done so. That's fair enough, really: it's an essential service, surely. But there is no a priori reason why such "faith maintenance" should be particularly suited for "faith discovery".
Given the Divine promise, I actually do think that we should be able to say "Do X, Y and Z, then you will find God" - for possibly quite complicated X, Y and Z, but nevertheless. And yes, given human limitations, a 100% success rate is unlikely. It's probably more comparable to medicine than physics anyway, so we can settle for "more people than not find God this way, with statistical significance."
Still, there should be some point where we can step up and say "well here, try that, it should work with a bit of luck." And if we can't then we have a problem. Period.
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
quote:I'm afraid I can't make any sense of that comment at all.
Originally posted by Gamaliel
If anyone could convince me to return to a more Calvinistic frame of reference, it would be EE ...
quote:Well, you could say that about a letter written to you by your wife if there was some distance between you. But there are certain cadences, cues, clues and registers, word usages, plus intimate insights into - and knowledge of - your character and so on in a letter from a loved one that give reasonably strong evidence of their authorship. You get to know these by personal experience of them. It's similar with God and the bible.
Posted by karl:
The Bible exists whether God does or not. There's no way to know that anything it says is God speaking.
quote:That's not the same as saying patterns never exist though is it?
Life circumstances - humans are great at spotting patterns when none exist.
quote:God can speak through the mouth or mule. Sometimes God simply uses people as a means of communication. They don't need to be conscious of it and it doesn't necessarily rest upon the quality of their relationship with him.
Friends may offer good advice, but why would they be any more in touch with God than I am.
quote:Yes, weigh it up against scripture, common sense, wise counsel, and life circumstances. Look out for red lights and if nothing obvious stands out as a red light then step out in trust. A bit like crossing the road. You don't need a parent holding your hand to cross the road any more because you're an adult. You know what to do. It's similar with God.
Inner prompting of the Holy Spirit? Any way of telling that from an active imagination.
quote:Are you entirely sure it's common sense? Or could it be something else?
Common sense unfortunately currently tells me this God business is a bit silly.
quote:Does matter if you were wrong really?
None of this is very definitive. You know the clearest thing I ever thought God was saying to me - through friends, "inner prompting", reasoning etc.? That he wanted me to be a primary school teacher. I'm not one. I was wrong. So how do I tell any other daft ideas I get from God telling me something?
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif){kind=icon}
) quote:So it's an in-group talking amongst itself not giving a fuck if anybody outside that group understands. You can get private boards here. Might be your thing.
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Let me just say that for one who actually understands Calvinism and the actual meaning of logic what daronmedway originally said made perfect sense.
quote:Dingdingdingdingdingding! We have a winner. This is exactly the issue.
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:My wife talks back. I'm far from sure God does. Not the same.
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:No. Rather stopping talking to God for a year will probably have an analogous impact to stopping talking to your wife for a year.
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
You mean if we stop pretending to ourselves we believe in God, then soon we openly won't?
quote:In what way? Please flesh this out.
Originally posted by daronmedway:
quote:Same God, different circumstances.
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:Is this the god who leaves the 99 sheep to find the stray one, or some other god?
Originally posted by daronmedway:
I suspect that God is going to miss Ryan a lot less than Ryan hopes.
quote:Wasn't it Mother Teresa who was supposed to have persevered in prayer for decades without any response?
Originally posted by mousethief:
Without knowing which God one is meant to believe in, or is talking to, saying "steady the course" could be downright damning, literally.
And what exactly is meant by "making an effort"? Praying to the ceiling without any response, year in and year out, for ten, twenty, thirty years? What's the definition of insanity? This is not the way to encourage behavior, God. Ever hear of "extinction"? If you want someone to stop doing something, ensure that their actions have no appreciable effect.
quote:I 'got' what Beeswax Altar was getting at and I'm not in any kind of special 'in-group' - unless you believe that all of Western Christianity constitutes an 'in-group' ...
Originally posted by mousethief:
So it's an in-group talking amongst itself not giving a fuck if anybody outside that group understands. You can get private boards here. Might be your thing.
quote:The issue is really painfully simple and straightforward:
Originally posted by Gamaliel
And daronmedway's reply seems fair enough too. If people are wilfully avoiding God then that doesn't make God at fault, does it?
quote:If someone wilfully avoiding God isn't lost, what are they? The lost sheep in the parable is identified as a sinner in need of repentence. Willful avoidance is something to repent of, isn't it? Or is it the unforgiveable sin that God will not allow repentence of? I don't understand your big black line between this sin and all others. This is a sheep who has "strayed." You appear to be saying that some straying sheep are more straying than others, or some types of straying are so strayful that God won't try to get you back. ALL intentional sins of commission are willful avoidance of God; you have to shove God out of your mind in order to commit the sin.
Originally posted by daronmedway:
The parable of the lost sheep is about lostness, not willful avoidance. That's not to say that people do not willfully avoid God. It's just saying that the parable isn't about that.
quote:She did indeed. As do I. But it's a lot to ask of someone, and if someone hears of others with tangible feelings of God's presence, and yet is denied that for decades, it's hardly sensible to excoriate them for throwing in the towel.
Originally posted by pydseybare:
Wasn't it Mother Teresa who was supposed to have persevered in prayer for decades without any response?
quote:But when EE expressed inability to understand it, BA blew him off with "Whatever." Sure looks to me like he's not interested in making himself understood. Not sure what else he'd have to do to say it louder.
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I 'got' what Beeswax Altar was getting at and I'm not in any kind of special 'in-group' - unless you believe that all of Western Christianity constitutes an 'in-group' ...
quote:That sounds like works righteousness. You're asking me to work to achieve virtue. How do I do that? What work do I do? Whom should I ask for instructions on this? You? The SA? The Catholics? The Orthodox? What if they disagree? How can I decide between them?
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Making an effort to add virtues to faith so that you aren't unfruitful and unproductive in your knowledge of Christ Jesus.
quote:I'm not entirely sure I understand the reasoning behind all that. If God has already accepted me and nothing I do will change that, then why does it matter what I do? Why should I bother even opening the pots of paint if I don't particularly enjoy painting as an activity?
Originally posted by daronmedway:
We don’t make an effort at godliness so that God will accept us; we make an effort at godliness because God has already accepted us.
I'm saying we don’t try to paint a beautiful picture with our life to make God love us; we paint a beautiful picture with our life because God loves us.
He has given us everything we need in order to paint a better picture. However, if we don’t try to to paint a better picture we will become ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of Jesus.
quote:The vast majority of mankind lives "inauthentic" lives. And this can be borne with consummate ease, mostly by simply not thinking about it at all. This is aided on one hand by the fact that what an "authentic" life would be for oneself is very difficult to determine indeed; and on the other hand by the ready availability of a myriad distractions: booze, sex, TV, money, career, SoF, ... Religion can serve as distraction just as much as a focus of authenticity, and switching or abandoning religion need not have any more significance than following a different football team (a quasi-religious experience for many anyhow).
Originally posted by Firenze:
You cannot, ultimately, bear to live a life that feels inauthentic to you: escape is not easy, but remaining is not tolerable.
quote:I am really echoing IngoB, but I would have thought that our culture was largely devoted to the inauthentic life. I mean that there are all kinds of distractions available today, such as consumerism, electronic toys, and so on, which help us to numb ourselves. As Sartre said, we don't want a grocer who dreams, we want a grocer who just plays at being a grocer.
Originally posted by Firenze:
It is all very interesting. If you begin to find that the beliefs you have ordered you life by hitherto are making you unhappy, what do you do? If you perceive that you held them because family and background inculcated them, or you cleaved to them as a refuge from family and background - and they no longer reflect the person you are?
I've seen people I know respond variously. One willed himself into a recommitment to a conservative faith and has lived his life in that milieu. Another realised rather too late that his life, career and marriage had been imposed more than chosen and was looking, rather forlornly, for all the sinning he'd missed....
You cannot, ultimately, bear to live a life that feels inauthentic to you: escape is not easy, but remaining is not tolerable.
quote:If you can't be bothered to become a better person for the sheer joy of becoming more like Jesus - to the benefit of yourself and other people - then it's possible that you don't appreciate what it means to be forgiven for your sin and that you have no true appreciation of what God wants you to become. And if that is indeed the case then it's highly unlikely that you've even got so much as toe in heaven's door. Access to heaven's door doesn't depend upon your virtue, but your very desire for virtue rests upon your access to heaven. In other words, if don't desire virtue you're probably not a Christian. In which case you can live like the devil and spend eternity with him too.
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:I'm not entirely sure I understand the reasoning behind all that. If God has already accepted me and nothing I do will change that, then why does it matter what I do? Why should I bother even opening the pots of paint if I don't particularly enjoy painting as an activity?
Originally posted by daronmedway:
We don’t make an effort at godliness so that God will accept us; we make an effort at godliness because God has already accepted us.
I'm saying we don’t try to paint a beautiful picture with our life to make God love us; we paint a beautiful picture with our life because God loves us.
He has given us everything we need in order to paint a better picture. However, if we don’t try to to paint a better picture we will become ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of Jesus.
To put it another way, if it's already been decided whether I go to heaven or hell, and if nothing I do can possibly change that, then why should I even bother to be Christian and go to church? It won't change anything. It won't achieve anything. It becomes an utterly pointless activity.
quote:Yes, I've been told that when I leave the room, a faint aroma of lavender and ambergris remains, to console those left behind.
Originally posted by Firenze:
That would account for the lotus-like glow that follows me everywhere.
I doubt I would cast it in such elevated terms - but I allow that a spiritual/psychological crisis may a precursor or necessary condition.
quote:I don't think so. This reminds me of the premise of "Fake It Til You Make It". I act rich; I recite phrases of affirmation of moneyful bounty in front of my mirror; I paste pictures of luxury cars on my refrigerator; I visit Open Houses of lavish mansions:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
Aristotle seems to suggest that we are what we do. So the way to create an ethic of 'being kind' is to start being kind.
I think it is highly likely that you will become a non-believer if you begin to act like a non-believer.
quote:I won't hear a word against meretricious falsity, it's what I live for.
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I suppose it's a traditional recipe for spiritual progress, isn't it? I suddenly saw through the meretricious falsity of our culture and my own persona, and hoopla, I was there (or here).
quote:I don't think wealth is an Aristotolian virtue.
Originally posted by Scarlet:
I don't think so. This reminds me of the premise of "Fake It Til You Make It". I act rich; I recite phrases of affirmation of moneyful bounty in front of my mirror; I paste pictures of luxury cars on my refrigerator; I visit Open Houses of lavish mansions:
At the end of the year I am still dirt poor; I live in a frigid apartment and I cannot afford to have a gash in my hand stitched at a doctor's.
quote:'Being like Jesus' has always struck me as being pious.
Originally posted by daronmedway:
If you can't be bothered to become a better person for the sheer joy of becoming more like Jesus
quote:How do you get to have a say on the authenticity of other people's lives? The most usual definition of an authentic life involves being true to one's self in the face of eternal pressures, most often cultural pressures. Many of the people, I suspect, who are "not thinking about it at all" are finding authenticity in loving their partners, bringing up their kids, going out to work doing jobs they quite like despite moaning about them of a Monday morning, having a rich inner life and a myriad of other things that our culture allows us to do, down to having the odd pint and talking shit on the internet.
The vast majority of mankind lives "inauthentic" lives. And this can be borne with consummate ease, mostly by simply not thinking about it at all.
quote:Hate to admit it, but Grokesx has got a point.
Originally posted by Grokesx
quote:How do you get to have a say on the authenticity of other people's lives? The most usual definition of an authentic life involves being true to one's self in the face of eternal pressures, most often cultural pressures. Many of the people, I suspect, who are "not thinking about it at all" are finding authenticity in loving their partners, bringing up their kids, going out to work doing jobs they quite like despite moaning about them of a Monday morning, having a rich inner life and a myriad of other things that our culture allows us to do, down to having the odd pint and talking shit on the internet.
@Ingo
The vast majority of mankind lives "inauthentic" lives. And this can be borne with consummate ease, mostly by simply not thinking about it at all.
Others might find such a life shallow and vapid and anything else they can think of to convince themselves of their own superiority, but that says nothing about the authenticity of the other people's lives.
![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
quote:I have no idea why you think that I expect something glorious or extraordinary - in worldly terms - from "authenticity". I've made a comparison to Buddhist enlightenment, and Buddhist enlightenment has little to do with sophistication, fame, or whatever. And I reject the nasty inference about my supposed motivation.
Originally posted by Grokesx:
Others might find such a life shallow and vapid and anything else they can think of to convince themselves of their own superiority, but that says nothing about the authenticity of the other people's lives.
quote:On the other hand, suppose I want to learn to love the poor. So I act like I do. I give money to charities, I work in soup kitchens, I donate time to the food bank passing out grocery bags to people. I thereby get to meet them and spend time with them and maybe hear a story or two, and my compassion is ignited, and before the year is over I have come to really love and cherish the poor as people made in God's image.
Originally posted by Scarlet:
quote:I don't think so. This reminds me of the premise of "Fake It Til You Make It". I act rich; I recite phrases of affirmation of moneyful bounty in front of my mirror; I paste pictures of luxury cars on my refrigerator; I visit Open Houses of lavish mansions:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
Aristotle seems to suggest that we are what we do. So the way to create an ethic of 'being kind' is to start being kind.
I think it is highly likely that you will become a non-believer if you begin to act like a non-believer.
At the end of the year I am still dirt poor; I live in a frigid apartment and I cannot afford to have a gash in my hand stitched at a doctor's.
quote:What's wrong with being pious?
Originally posted by leo:
'Being like Jesus' has always struck me as being pious.
![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
quote:Jesus calls us to sacrifice every part of us which is not of God, and to unite spiritually with Him, through our faith and the sacraments. As our sinful self, we can never be like Him, but only in as much as we can abandon our "self", and when we seek always God's will, than we are walking together.
Originally posted by leo:
quote:'Being like Jesus' has always struck me as being pious.
Originally posted by daronmedway:
If you can't be bothered to become a better person for the sheer joy of becoming more like Jesus
I think Jesus calls us to be 'like' our selves, the selves he created and willed into being but from which we all too frequently fall short.
quote:And enlightenment seeking ascetic buddhists don't feel superior to the those trapped in the world of sensual pleasures and the accumulation of material wealth? Give me a break.
I have no idea why you think that I expect something glorious or extraordinary - in worldly terms - from "authenticity". I've made a comparison to Buddhist enlightenment, and Buddhist enlightenment has little to do with sophistication, fame, or whatever.
quote:Reject away. Actually, I wasn't thinking of you when I wrote that bit, I was thinking in more generic terms. Having said that, when you say stuff like "The vast majority of mankind lives "inauthentic" lives. And this can be borne with consummate ease, mostly by simply not thinking about it at all..." I'd say a feeling superior cap is a pretty snug fit.
And I reject the nasty inference about my supposed motivation.
quote:OK, if we strip out the superfluous junk we get "unity between what one wants and what one does". So, if what one wants is to live an ordinary life in a society that is for the most part pluralistic and allows significant personal freedoms, is that not authentic? It might not be the life you would choose, but that's the whole point of what I'm saying. You, or anybody else, no matter how vast an intellect they may have and however spiritually enlightened they think themselves to be, don't get to tell other people what is an authentic life for them.
But we cannot simply call all lives "authentic" just because the people that happen to live them really do live them. That renders the term meaningless. I think it must refer to a kind of "deep" unity between what one truly wants and what one actually does.
quote:Pride and superiority are those things that are very hard to escape. I feel drawn to theology since I escaped sustained apostasy, that I might have a deeper understanding of how I can continually reject my sinful nature and draw closer to Christ, and not need therapy in the process. Finding assurance and building defences against my faith being shattered for a second time is a part of that, and perhaps maybe being able to help others in their faith when I am more secure in mine and confident on every question. But there is a flicker of doubt, that it might be hubris that motivates me, and even as it is human nature to feel proud of one's achievements, such is surely sinful nonetheless. I should probably just put it down to one of those doubts that get placed in our heads from negative sources - internal or otherwise - and pursue it wholeheartedly nonetheless.
Originally posted by Grokesx:
quote:And enlightenment seeking ascetic buddhists don't feel superior to the those trapped in the world of sensual pleasures and the accumulation of material wealth? Give me a break.
I have no idea why you think that I expect something glorious or extraordinary - in worldly terms - from "authenticity". I've made a comparison to Buddhist enlightenment, and Buddhist enlightenment has little to do with sophistication, fame, or whatever.
quote:I used the term in the sense that many seminarians tend to use it - 'He's a bit pi.'
Originally posted by mousethief:
What's wrong with being pious?
quote:I think I'm probably making a distinction that the writer to the Hebrews apparently identifies. No doubt EE will be along to tell me that I'm not allowed to quote these verses (because they don't chime with the P of TULIP). Which they don't.
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:If someone wilfully avoiding God isn't lost, what are they? The lost sheep in the parable is identified as a sinner in need of repentence. Willful avoidance is something to repent of, isn't it? Or is it the unforgiveable sin that God will not allow repentence of? I don't understand your big black line between this sin and all others. This is a sheep who has "strayed." You appear to be saying that some straying sheep are more straying than others, or some types of straying are so strayful that God won't try to get you back. ALL intentional sins of commission are willful avoidance of God; you have to shove God out of your mind in order to commit the sin.
Originally posted by daronmedway:
[qb]The parable of the lost sheep is about lostness, not willful avoidance. That's not to say that people do not willfully avoid God. It's just saying that the parable isn't about that.
quote:
4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. Hebrews 6:4-6
quote:Theoretically speaking, enlightenment-seeking Buddhists may feel superior, but enlightened ones cannot, as that would be in itself a worldly attachment compromising their enlightenment. Whether that makes sense practically speaking is a question of little relevance to me now, since I'm not a Buddhist any more. My point was not that I believe in Buddhist teaching, my point was that my reference to Buddhist enlightenment fully intended the usual association most people have there with a humble / ordinary lifestyle.
Originally posted by Grokesx:
And enlightenment seeking ascetic buddhists don't feel superior to the those trapped in the world of sensual pleasures and the accumulation of material wealth? Give me a break.
quote:If you were not intentionally insulting before, then you certainly are so now - since you attribute to me directly what I have rejected. Anyway, you seem to think that I claim an "authentic" life for myself. I do not. One of the many things orthodox Christianity gets right is to take the pressure off achieving anything spiritually special yourself. It is anti-Pelagian. I do not have to be at one with myself and my life. I simply have to follow Christ and bear my crosses, including any crosses arising from unresolved inauthenticity.
Originally posted by Grokesx:
Having said that, when you say stuff like "The vast majority of mankind lives "inauthentic" lives. And this can be borne with consummate ease, mostly by simply not thinking about it at all..." I'd say a feeling superior cap is a pretty snug fit.
quote:Obviously that could be authentic. However, I do not think that most people living such lives are authentic in the sense that I have detailed. For example, upon being offered twenty million dollars, how many of them would say "thanks, but no, thanks, I'd rather continue with my ordinary life"?
Originally posted by Grokesx:
So, if what one wants is to live an ordinary life in a society that is for the most part pluralistic and allows significant personal freedoms, is that not authentic?
quote:First, I and anybody else can have a fair go at telling anybody else whether they lead an authentic life, given enough relevant personal information. That's so because I have given an objective and universal definition of what that would entail. Second, authentic in my sense is not a synonym for "(morally) good". Someone could be a highly authentic child rapist, for example. Third, I do get to tell other people what is a (morally) good life for them. They may not listen to me, and if I am any smart then I will pick an appropriate time and mode for telling them. But morals are universal and social by design, and there is no such thing as "my moral right" and "your moral right", ever. (Where people speak that way they actually mean that certain things do not really matter to them, and hence that they can live with whatever one prefers.)
Originally posted by Grokesx:
It might not be the life you would choose, but that's the whole point of what I'm saying. You, or anybody else, no matter how vast an intellect they may have and however spiritually enlightened they think themselves to be, don't get to tell other people what is an authentic life for them.
quote:Of course Catholics have always been more optimistic about how far you can go with reason that Protestants. But I'm not sure that you can take the saying "Seek and you shall find" as referring to an experiment in the sense that this is normally understood.
In short, we have a Divine guarantee that every proper experiment will be successful, however, we are much less sure what is proper in this context. There are major issues of experimental design here. Or even worse, uncertainty about the very experimental questions we are trying to ask.
quote:then I may be just arguing about words. I don't dispute that some behaviours are more likely to lead to faith that others. But designing an experiment? You can always try, and I'd be interested in the result.
"well here, try that, it should work with a bit of luck."
quote:hosting/
Originally posted by daronmedway:
No doubt EE will be along to tell me that I'm not allowed to quote these verses
quote:Sorry. Struck me as a tad superior in tone. And if that sounds like a notpology, I suppose it is.
If you were not intentionally insulting before, then you certainly are so now - since you attribute to me directly what I have rejected.
quote:That's the crux of my beef. You dismiss the lives of "vast majority of humankind" as inauthentic on the strength of no personal information whatsoever. I'm assuming you aren't omniscient, so that would suggest to me you think you have a generic handle on what the vast majority of people "deeply" want and a good idea of what they jolly well should want.
First, I and anybody else can have a fair go at telling anybody else whether they lead an authentic life, given enough relevant personal information.
quote:One does not put the Lord to the test by seeking Him out, one puts Him to the test by demanding a specific extraordinary performance. I do not assume that I can perform a "physical experiment", some kind of empirical data gathering, that would determine the existence of God. But experimentation surely has a wider sense than that. For example, somebody "experimenting with drugs" is not commonly assumed to be conducting a double blind pharmaceutical study. I think God quite literally has promised that he can be discovered by all with means available to them. And I do think that we often are too timid in teaching systematic ways for improving one's chances to encounter God. For example, if a bunch of atheists do not find God in spite of putting in some actual effort in praying to Him, then we should ask what they were actually doing and whether they could have been taught some other modes of prayer that would have led to a better success rate. Again, I do think this is more similar to medicine or perhaps even psychology than physics, so I would not expect anywhere close to 100% efficacy. But I think one can actually say more there than leaving it up to pure chance.
Originally posted by anteater:
I don't dispute that some behaviours are more likely to lead to faith that others. But designing an experiment? You can always try, and I'd be interested in the result. The one who spoke of seeking and finding also said "you shall not put the Lord your God to the test" as you certainly don't need me to remind you.
quote:OK then, you can have this beef (after we have successfully dealt with the beef of "superiority" which you had been pushing so far). I am sufficiently confident from my observations of humanity that most people are not truly content with the lives they lead. But it is too difficult and tedious to argue this, really. Is playing the lottery a sign of being unhappy with one's present life, or itself part of a life one is happy with? Is the preoccupation of much of literature and film with various modes of human dissatisfaction an accurate reflection of reality, or just a sign that artists are exceptionally maladjusted? Endless boring exchanges with no resolution in sight can be had down that route. So I will simply maintain this as an unsupported assertion which you can take or leave, being rather sure that leaving it will be your loss...
Originally posted by Grokesx:
That's the crux of my beef. You dismiss the lives of "vast majority of humankind" as inauthentic on the strength of no personal information whatsoever. I'm assuming you aren't omniscient, so that would suggest to me you think you have a generic handle on what the vast majority of people "deeply" want and a good idea of what they jolly well should want.
quote:In the case of the guy in the OP, unemployment, apparently. Sounds dire.
Originally posted by George Spigot:
A year without God.
Interesting experiment. Any thoughts on what the outcome may be?
quote:I'll find a way to carry on somehow.
being rather sure that leaving it will be your loss...
quote:Fair point. My bad. Sorry, EE.
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:hosting/
Originally posted by daronmedway:
No doubt EE will be along to tell me that I'm not allowed to quote these verses
Predicting that other posters will say and/or do bad things constitutes a personal attack. And could be construed as flamebaiting (now where have I heard that accusation recently?).
Stop it.
/hosting
quote:To be fair, why would someone hired to offer Christian leadership expect to be paid while they publicly try out atheism?
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:In the case of the guy in the OP, unemployment, apparently. Sounds dire.
Originally posted by George Spigot:
A year without God.
Interesting experiment. Any thoughts on what the outcome may be?
quote:Contender for Worst Reason to Believe.
Originally posted by George Spigot:
Interestingly follow up by another Christian blogger
quote:He wants to be a sheeple?
Originally posted by George Spigot:
Interestingly follow up by another Christian blogger
quote:Yep. This is why there are a lot of closeted atheist clergy, and why the Clergy Project was set up. If you think it would be bad to lose your faith, imagine what it would be like to lose your livelihood (and possibly your home) at the same time.
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:In the case of the guy in the OP, unemployment, apparently. Sounds dire.
Originally posted by George Spigot:
A year without God.
Interesting experiment. Any thoughts on what the outcome may be?
quote:The comment thread on that was pretty funny. Arguing over what constitutes an Ad Hominem. Someone should invite them over to the Ship, they'd fit right in.
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:Contender for Worst Reason to Believe.
Originally posted by George Spigot:
Interestingly follow up by another Christian blogger
![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
quote:There's something missing in that blog post.
Originally posted by George Spigot:
Interestingly follow up by another Christian blogger
quote:IMO this is really an argument against the laity-clergy divide, not an argument as to why Christians should be more willing to hire atheists as clergy.
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
quote:Yep. This is why there are a lot of closeted atheist clergy, and why the Clergy Project was set up. If you think it would be bad to lose your faith, imagine what it would be like to lose your livelihood (and possibly your home) at the same time.
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:In the case of the guy in the OP, unemployment, apparently. Sounds dire.
Originally posted by George Spigot:
A year without God.
Interesting experiment. Any thoughts on what the outcome may be?
quote:I suppose secretly atheist clergy exist, but lots of them? Do you have any idea what you have to go through to get into the ordained ministry of most mainline churches? I really have a hard time believing that wavering faith would go through that sort of thing.
Yep. This is why there are a lot of closeted atheist clergy, and why the Clergy Project was set up. If you think it would be bad to lose your faith, imagine what it would be like to lose your livelihood (and possibly your home) at the same time.
quote:I understood that the best way to turn solid faith into wavering faith is to send someone to Theology school
Zach82: Do you have any idea what you have to go through to get into the ordained ministry of most mainline churches? I really have a hard time believing that wavering faith would go through that sort of thing.
quote:Without clergy at all there would be no special prestige in the status of minister, and no financial benefit to be gained from entering or staying in the role without faith. Every working individual in the church would have a secular job; but I hear that ex-clergy can find it difficult to cope financially, especially if they've never worked or trained at anything else.
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
But the same thing would happen if there were no clergy at all and everyone was 'laity' in the terms you're using.
It would simply work out in a different way.
Some sacramentalist types would argue that this is precisely why we need clergy and a liturgy etc ... because irrespective how apostate your clergyperson might be, at least the liturgy and structure is there to keep you on track ...
I'm not advocating that myself, by the way, but it has a kind of logic to it.
quote:Yep. I've heard much better arguments on the ship. Mind you I've also heard the dig about atheism being for elitist, rich white people on the ship as well.
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:Contender for Worst Reason to Believe.
Originally posted by George Spigot:
Interestingly follow up by another Christian blogger
quote:Well, you've talked to him in person while I've only talked to him online, but I do think there's some wide-eyed naievete in his response, given that he writes for Huffington Post on Religion -- it's not as if he's someone with a quiet little blog that gets a couple dozen visitors now and then.
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
One would think naivety, slightly. But then after talking to him, I think 1) He honestly didn't expect this to go viral, which is kinda understandable, and 2) He probably thought he would have some academic-freedom coverage.
quote:Okay. I admit I am jaded in this respect.
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:On the other hand, suppose I want to learn to love the poor. So I act like I do. I give money to charities, I work in soup kitchens, I donate time to the food bank passing out grocery bags to people. I thereby get to meet them and spend time with them and maybe hear a story or two, and my compassion is ignited, and before the year is over I have come to really love and cherish the poor as people made in God's image.
Originally posted by Scarlet:
quote:I don't think so. This reminds me of the premise of "Fake It Til You Make It". I act rich; I recite phrases of affirmation of moneyful bounty in front of my mirror; I paste pictures of luxury cars on my refrigerator; I visit Open Houses of lavish mansions:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
Aristotle seems to suggest that we are what we do. So the way to create an ethic of 'being kind' is to start being kind.
I think it is highly likely that you will become a non-believer if you begin to act like a non-believer.
At the end of the year I am still dirt poor; I live in a frigid apartment and I cannot afford to have a gash in my hand stitched at a doctor's.
You're cherry-picking an absurd example; not all examples of fake-it-till-you-make-it are so absurd.
quote:Whoa!! That's a bit heavy! Still, if that's what you really think then you must be glad that Bell is moving further away from the '***holes'.
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
"There must be limits"
Hmmm. No, there mustn't, when it comes to academic discussion, in my opinion. But then, I distance myself from my former church, because the SDA overchurch IS a bunch of assholes. But I digress.
quote:It's not an argument for or against anything, just a statement of fact. There are closeted atheist clergy, and it is immensely difficult and damaging for such a person to come out. I can't help it if you choose to interpret it as an argument in some direction, but it's just the way it is.
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:IMO this is really an argument against the laity-clergy divide, not an argument as to why Christians should be more willing to hire atheists as clergy.
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
quote:Yep. This is why there are a lot of closeted atheist clergy, and why the Clergy Project was set up. If you think it would be bad to lose your faith, imagine what it would be like to lose your livelihood (and possibly your home) at the same time.
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:In the case of the guy in the OP, unemployment, apparently. Sounds dire.
Originally posted by George Spigot:
A year without God.
Interesting experiment. Any thoughts on what the outcome may be?
Since few of us want to remove this divide, we'll just have to accept that some clergy will be 'closeted' atheists. Maybe for some Christians this won't matter because it's the priestly status that's important, not the particular theological inclinations of their clergy. Others are happy to worship with clergy who've openly drifted in a Christian-atheist direction:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaas_Hendrikse
quote:You make a lot of assumptions here. Most obviously, you assume that loss of faith is necessarily preceded by wavering (define "wavering" in such a way that this is a meaningful statement), and that such wavering would be obvious at the time. You do realise that ordained ministry can last quite a long time, and that people change over the course of their lives?
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:I suppose secretly atheist clergy exist, but lots of them? Do you have any idea what you have to go through to get into the ordained ministry of most mainline churches? I really have a hard time believing that wavering faith would go through that sort of thing.
Yep. This is why there are a lot of closeted atheist clergy, and why the Clergy Project was set up. If you think it would be bad to lose your faith, imagine what it would be like to lose your livelihood (and possibly your home) at the same time.
quote:Yes, that's the way it is. But I'm not sure what you want Christians to about it.
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
There are closeted atheist clergy, and it is immensely difficult and damaging for such a person to come out. I can't help it if you choose to interpret it as an argument in some direction, but it's just the way it is.
quote:I'm serving in a similar capacity in one of the institutions that let him go, and honestly, I'm having a hard time figuring out how he could have thought that. When we sign our contract we sign the statement of faith at the same time-- they could not be more clear that this is part of our institutional identity. There have been numerous high-level discussions both within the institution and within the press over the last few months re: how this has played out with some of our faculty who dissent in one or the other aspect. To have thought that you could continue employment while publicly dissenting from virtually the entire document is hard to fathom. I'm afraid I would have to concur with others here that your friend seems at best naive.
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
One would think naivety, slightly. But then after talking to him, I think 1) He honestly didn't expect this to go viral, which is kinda understandable, and 2) He probably thought he would have some academic-freedom coverage.
quote:I've found that to be true in a number of cases. Twitter dogpiling seems to be the latest way in which some kind of lynch-mob judgmentalism gets let loose. Or on a different level, a kind of prying curiosity, an assumption that you even know enough to speculate. Lord, how important to take our ignorance seriously. And observe some decent boundaries.
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
One of the things I find so interesting about this public evaluation of someone I have actually talked to in person, is how completely rubbish the evaluation of his motives are. I'm not saying I know him all that well, but I probably know him a damn sight better than most people blathering about his intentions. Not saying anyone here, but just completely in general.
quote:Yes. That seems to be an inherent evil of this form of communication, one that no doubt leads to much misrepresentation and harm.
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
One of the things I find so interesting about this public evaluation of someone I have actually talked to in person, is how completely rubbish the evaluation of his motives are. I'm not saying I know him all that well, but I probably know him a damn sight better than most people blathering about his intentions. Not saying anyone here, but just completely in general.
quote:fwiw, I did read his blog, and again, he strikes me as honorable and well-meaning but also very very unrealistic in his expectations, especially as an adjunct (who can have their contracts removed for pretty much any reason or just cuz of low enrollment-- we are the bottom feeders of academia). I do think you are misrepresenting the nature of faith statements in Christian universities. They are simply a way of identifying who and what we are in relation to all the other options out there. APU's and FTS's statements aren' even particularly narrow or fundamentalist (and apply only to faculty, not students).
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
The best anyone can do really is read his blog, and maybe just watch him on tv, and listen to him, instead of assuming all the things people are assuming. But then again, we are dealing with people that force people to sign position statements that are then used to throw you out, and I don't see them as particularly narrow in their rulings. To me, those statements are essentially "Sign this, because we want the appearance of academic freedom, but in reality, we want to control your asses, and have any excuse to fire you, lest you force us to change and allow women to speak, or gays to have equal rights or whatever." "Institutional identity" is a fancy way to say "Shut the hell up, or we'll fire you for being different, and having the gall to speak it."