Ship of Fools: Anonymous online? Does it change how we post?

Thread: Anonymous online? Does it change how we post? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
EtymologicalEvangelical asked:
I know when to put tact before open expression of ideas, but if we can't express how we feel within the security of the anonymity of the internet, then where can we? (And if some people choose to use their real names on the internet, then that is their problem).

and daronmedway said -

quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
I chose to start using my real name on the ship some time ago because I realised (after receiving some rather robust "help" from certain shipmates) that I was prone to abusing the anonymity of the internet in order to be a jerk. It's been helpful, if not entirely successful.

Both of these comments made me think.

Which camp are you in?

Do you think that the security of the anonymity of the internet is useful for expressing your feelings?

Or do you think it's better to be up front about who you are, in order to prevent you from going over the top?

I don't hide who I am at all and am easily found from my sig. This is because I believe that we are never truly anonymous online. So I never post anything I wouldn't want my boss/Mum/best friend/husband etc to see. I certainly don't feel 'safe' enough to bare my soul here. So it does change how I post - I assume the world and his wife are watching me (if they wanted to, which I'm sure they don't!)

What about you?

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :

I’m convinced the anonymity lets people (me) post in a more belligerent manner than in real life, but I don’t actually see that as a bad thing if everyone is doing it. And they do!

Even those who would claim not to would, I’m sure, be much more conciliatory and diplomatic in real life. Would I? Yes of course. But I don’t think it would change my opinions, just that I would express them more moderately. I am quite comfortable debating my views with my family and friends and we (almost) never come to blows!

I do think that anonymity adds to the debate here on the Ship as arguments must be defended. It does appear to testosterone-fuelled at times, rather like a courtroom or Parliament. In fact, in my mind I equate Hell with the House of Commons and Purgatory as the House of Lords! Just my little affectation.

I rather like it to be honest.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

Which camp are you in?

Do you think that the security of the anonymity of the internet is useful for expressing your feelings?

Or do you think it's better to be up front about who you are, in order to prevent you from going over the top?

Yes. Both of these.

Posted by Frank Mitchell (# 17946) on :

I didn't feel any need for anonymity. I'm into Linux where pseudonyms are common, but it would make me feel like a Virus-Writer.

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

I'm both anonymous (Doc Tor isn't my real name...) and not (my sig leads directly to my website).

So I assume I'm not anonymous. Does it change how I post? Not really. I have limited people skills (and tend to save them for people who don't spout right-wing tosh) though being on the Ship has trained me to attack the argument, not the arguer, so in that respect, the way I post has changed the way I am in RL.

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
though being on the Ship has trained me to attack the argument, not the arguer, so in that respect, the way I post has changed the way I am in RL.

This. The Ship is nothing if not a brilliant asset for people to improve their debating skills.

If anyone posts a link justifying their position, you can guarantee it will be followed and taken apart by someone! There are no hiding places.

That strengthens you and makes you face up to your position. If you can defend it then great, if not, they you are forced to question your position.

Posted by Liopleurodon (# 4836) on :

I like that small layer of anomymity that lies between me and the world here although I'm not kidding myself that I couldn't be outed if someone could be bothered to look into it. The anonymity isn't to protect me from people I know in real life (all of whom either know my username or could figure it out pretty quickly if they wanted to - my brother quickly figured out who was me on SoF without being told, and I spotted him from nothing but the content of his posts) but from people I've never met. I'm quite open on the Ship about my mental health issues, for instance, and while I'm not ashamed of them, I'd rather not have them pop up as the first thing to show when someone googles my real name.

So that's my personal take on it. The issue of people using the anonymity of the internet to act like a mob of violent thugs sending rape/death threats is another issue (fortunately not something that happens on SoF). I'm not going to weigh in on their motivations because I don't understand them at all.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

I am a licensed professional. There are 2 cases locally that have led me to post anonymously, plus a personal experience in a non-internet context. The internet cases both involved someone who posted as private people, but someone decided to print it off and send it to their professional regulatory bodies because crazy people sometimes do stuff like that. One is from my profession, another from a different profession. Both them had the usual experience when a member of the public complains - about 2-3 years of sheer hell, where the investigations people audit (go on a fishing trip) through their professional practice, looking things to justify their employment.

If I was to blame someone for needing to post anonymously, I would blame the lawyer group who advised government to pass such broad acts that allow the public to complain about anything whatever - it is easier for lawyers and good for their income if they are needed and if regulatory acts are all the same. I myself had to go through investigation due to a newspaper article that said I said something I did not say. It may sound incredible but it's true. That one cost me $6K to quash.

So anonymous it is, and will continue.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

The reason why I post anonymously is that I'd like to keep my personal identity on the web and my professional identity separate.

When I post something, especially in topics related to development cooperation, I want to make clear that I speak on personal grounds, not as a representative of the organization that currently employs me. I hope that having an anonymous avatar helps toward this.

I certainly feel that I can express myself more freely on the Ship in this way.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I’m convinced the anonymity lets people (me) post in a more belligerent manner than in real life, but I don’t actually see that as a bad thing if everyone is doing it. And they do!

Even those who would claim not to would, I’m sure, be much more conciliatory and diplomatic in real life. Would I? Yes of course.

I am less diplomatic face-to face. In part because there is more context, in part because of the lesser accountability online. Certainly, the relative anonymity of online communication allows one to be less polite, but it does not require it and need not necessarily lead to it.

quote:
Originally posted by deano:

I rather like it to be honest.

Honesty does not preclude courtesy.

Posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom (# 3434) on :

I have always assumed that, given a bit of effort, my real identity could be discovered, so I never post anything I wouldn't want my clients to find. I'm also a fairly prim kind of person anyway.

Posted by jbohn (# 8753) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I don't hide who I am at all and am easily found from my sig. This is because I believe that we are never truly anonymous online. So I never post anything I wouldn't want my boss/Mum/best friend/husband etc to see. I certainly don't feel 'safe' enough to bare my soul here. So it does change how I post - I assume the world and his wife are watching me (if they wanted to, which I'm sure they don't!)

This. I've always been of the mind that if you can't back it, don't say it - in person or otherwise.

I think some folks definitely use their pseudo-anonymity online to be the kind of jerk they'd never be in person. Me, I'm the same kind of jerk either way. [Biased]

Posted by Oscar the Grouch (# 1916) on :

Anyone who wants to could work out who I "really am". I know I have left enough clues behind. And there are a few people who DO know me in real life - although those seem to have stopped posting on the Ship in recent years.

But I deliberately choose the path of relative anonymity on the Ship, because it gives me the opportunity to express opinions that I might otherwise keep to myself. I can also be more assertive and argumentative than I allow myself in real life.

But this has changed since I joined the ship. First of all, over 10 years ago, I would use the Ship to express views which I was only partially committed to - as if I were trying them on for size. As a result, I became more confident in them and so in some ways my Ship anonymity has helped me to work through some issues and be able to reach the place where I am now.

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :

The woman driver who knocked a cyclist off his bike then bragged about it on Twitter thought she was anonymous on-line until the police knocked on her door. Story.

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :

quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I’m convinced the anonymity lets people (me) post in a more belligerent manner than in real life, but I don’t actually see that as a bad thing if everyone is doing it. And they do!

Yes they do, a few of them. But most here are honest. You can tell the ones who post in the belligerant manner, they are the ones who get called to Hell regularly.

This type of posting does not go down too well here. Everyone isn't doing it.

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

People can also lie about who they really are, even pretend to be someone else. There are such things as false trails.

Speaking as a Host, I don't have to worry about who people really are, just how they post. Whatever we call ourselves here, I think it is better that everyone starts with a clean sheet, and everyone has to take responsibility for the mud they splash on their own cyber-reputation. Sincerity is not assumed.

But, as in real life, the insincere, the liars and misrepresenters need to have good memories. In the long run, sincerity and honesty pay off, simply because they require less record-keeping. Even if a Host misses it, be sure that some eagle-eyed Shipmate will spot your messing about.

Penalties for discourtesy vary! The ability to deliver a telling insult in Hell is normally good for reputation. Just don't try it here.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

Anonymity can have chilling consequences

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

I think that's true, mousethief. Some initial contract (e.g. abide by the 10Cs), coupled with use of Moderators, will reduce the risks.

I don't tweet myself and make only restricted use of Facebook. It bothers me just how naively open some folks are on Facebook - and Twitter, from what I hear and read.

Posted by JoannaP (# 4493) on :

When I first joined, my displayed name included my full surname but I changed it when I wanted to pray for Mr P on the prayer thread, to protect his identity. I am not aware that the change has made any difference to how I post, apart from asking you to pray for my nearest and dearest.

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

ESPN (the cable sports network) recently shifted its comment system from one which required a ESPN-based username and password to one which required a linked Facebook account. I am sure money was the main reason, but I think it was also intended to take away from the anonymity which was allowing some pretty awful behavior, ranging from simple trolling to frequent racial attacks on one black female writer who writes a lot of stories about race and sports. I would say it has made a slight improvement in the quality of the website comment sections, but there is still a lot of trolling that goes on, probably based on the fact that most users know they will probably never encounter someone they are trolling in real life. The vastness of the Internet releases you from a good deal of accountability, even if your name and picture are out there.

Posted by Deputy Verger (# 15876) on :

I'm semi-anonymous. I use a bland and androgynous username on the Ship, but I go to Shipmeets, so I am not an unknown quantity here. If you want to know my name, PM me and tell me yours. I even have a couple of Shippies as Facebook Fiends, so they know what I do and where I live and work. It's certainly not about diplomacy, which is not one of my stellar skills even in Real Life; I don't mind Shipmates finding out who I am, but I don't necessarily want RL acquaintances lurking and listening on board. So I don't post a lot, and I don't post anything personal.

Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I don't hide who I am at all and am easily found from my sig. This is because I believe that we are never truly anonymous online. So I never post anything I wouldn't want my boss/Mum/best friend/husband etc to see. I certainly don't feel 'safe' enough to bare my soul here. So it does change how I post - I assume the world and his wife are watching me (if they wanted to, which I'm sure they don't!)

That basically sums up my situation. My sig also links to my shop and UK trading regulations stipulate that my name and contact details are displayed there so I'm very easy to identify.

Posted by hugorune (# 17793) on :

I use a pseudonym (obviously enough, for anyone who knows where my nickname comes from [Big Grin]

) out of habit rather than any particular desire or expectation to remain anonymous. I try to never say anything that I wouldn't feel comfortable saying to a person face to face (Although for some weird reasons, which constern me greatly, I articulate stuff better online than I do in verbal conversation).

Posted by Gwalchmai (# 17802) on :

As a relative newcomer to the ship, the attraction of anonymity is that there is no embarrassment if I say something that is stupid or not properly thought through. If there are any shipmates who know me in real life, they have probably worked out who I am from the clues scattered through my posts (although so far no shipmate has introduced him/her-self to me.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

I'm only semi-anonymous, but I treasure that semi- as it allows me to post asking for prayers, advice, etc. for the people we care for. (I would have to be even deeper under cover were it not for the culture boundary, which means that very few of you are ever apt to run across the people we pray for).

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :

But doesn’t anonymity give a voice to those who suffer in real life from social anxiety or other forms of disability? They can speak with a determination that they would not be able to do face to face or if they [i[believe[/i] their identity is compromised.

Some people have problems in the real world and the anonymous nature of the Internet actually gives them a voice.

To be honest Karl could probably identify me easily if he wanted, and if you wanted to put the effort in I’m sure many of you could, but c’est la vie!

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by deano:
But doesn’t anonymity give a voice to those who suffer in real life from social anxiety or other forms of disability? They can speak with a determination that they would not be able to do face to face or if they [i[believe[/i] their identity is compromised.

Some people have problems in the real world and the anonymous nature of the Internet actually gives them a voice.

Anonymity serves more than purpose. Like Barnabas62, I see the placing all of one's life online as reckless.
I hang out here because it is a controlled environment. Accountability is, to a point, enforced. It is one reason I hate reddit and dislike twitter and facebook.

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

In my experience the ship is an anomalous environment. It's extremely well moderated, which allows the luxury of anonymous posting. A number of sites which had unmoderated anonymous posting have switched over to requiring identification because they swamped with trolling and racist/sexist comments.
One should be grateful for all the work that the hosts and administrators do to maintain this environment.

Posted by Evangeline (# 7002) on :

In many ways I believe the "mask" of anonymity allows us to be more ourselves. I suspect many people wouldn't be as honest about their trials and struggles on here if they were forced to have their real names published and for their out of context comments etc to pop up every time somebody did a google search of their name. On Fbook everybody portrays the most positive aspects of their lives, everybody's livin' the dream [Smile]

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

As for my first decade (eek!) on the ship, I was a senior grants officer in two politically sensitive areas of the Canadian government (enough so that my very first task when I began the first of these was to prepare a briefing note answering a Globe & Mail editorial attack on the programme), and that alone would have given me a very minor but also vulnerable profile.

As well, there was a civil war going on in my parish, which eventually got dragged out of the ACoC on the pretext of The Issue. Anyone aware of Anglican internal fights is also aware of the extraordinary viciousness and shameful vileness in play (from all sides, and I can chapter and verse this). Even the most anodyne observations on anything relating to The Issue would have made me the target of some very unpleasant stuff (there was enough of that anyway).

Given these two realities, I could only post under a pseudonym. Neither situation applies any longer, but I'm now in the habit of it. My FB postings tend to focus on what I serve my friends for dinner.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
In my experience the ship is an anomalous environment. It's extremely well moderated, which allows the luxury of anonymous posting. A number of sites which had unmoderated anonymous posting have switched over to requiring identification because they swamped with trolling and racist/sexist comments.
One should be grateful for all the work that the hosts and administrators do to maintain this environment.

Yes.

Even the most vitriolic have to abide by the 10Cs - so anonymity seems to cause folk to be more honest about their deepest feelings/thoughts/ideas.

But it could work the other way -

quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:

As well, there was a civil war going on in my parish, which eventually got dragged out of the ACoC on the pretext of The Issue. Anyone aware of Anglican internal fights is also aware of the extraordinary viciousness and shameful vileness in play (from all sides, and I can chapter and verse this). Even the most anodyne observations on anything relating to The Issue would have made me the target of some very unpleasant stuff (there was enough of that anyway).

It could have happened anyway, mind you.

In my early Ship days one of my work colleagues asked if I was 'Boogie' on the Ship. Her friend is a Shippie and she'd been sent an interesting link. I don't hide who I am but, even so, I think you could have been noticed - especially in a Church environment.

If you are trying hard not to give yourself away by your words and style, then you will be less upfront imo.

Of course, how we start off is how we'll continue - and maybe we were not thinking of such things in our first days of Shipdom.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

If you are trying hard not to give yourself away by your words and style, then you will be less upfront imo.

Of course, how we start off is how we'll continue - and maybe we were not thinking of such things in our first days of Shipdom.

I disagree. I've no wish to reveal myself, yet I find myself being more open as time passes. At least with sharing my general experiences; details remain private.
Perhaps I am odd person out, though.

Posted by Rowen (# 1194) on :

I'm basically "out"... But then, I have always assumed that whatever I write is public, can be tracked back, and must be at least vaguely nice. So it is... At least I think so! Same with FB.

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :

I must admit I have thought about this. I reckon that in a few years time, some prostective MP or minister or whatever, who posted something stupid on a forum when younger, will be confronted by that post after the newspapers track and hack through forum memberships and related posts.

Not me as I don't intend standing for public election, but I think that the time will come when a prospective minister (or US equivalent) will be asked...

"Whe you posted at 21:38 on May 16th 2002 that 'Eugenics was okay in principle' on the Ship of Fools forum where you were logged in with the user name 'GodLovesMeLongTime', what did you mean by that? doesn't the public have a right to know?"

I do wonder when the press will turn their attention to the mass of potentially embarrassing quotes left lying around on 'net fora by our future leaders, or indeed, footballers.

[ 07. January 2014, 14:17: Message edited by: deano ]

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

It's funny the ramifications of anonymity. For instance, I have discovered that a spiritual leader of a community who I respect is friends with two Shippies who live in different states from each other and from him. Now, he could know them off the ship, but the odds are decent are that PA is a shipmate. Curiosity makes me very much want to know who he is, because I bet what he has to say here is worth attending to too. But there's no PA registered, so if he is here, he chooses to be anonymous. I'm not going to ask him because I don't want him to answer if he'd rather not.

(Even posting this could be unhelpful, but I have worded it in such ways, that I doubt anyone will clearly be able to be sure I'm talking about them to feel pressured.)

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

Another thought on anonymity: Being judged by one's words alone.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

If you are trying hard not to give yourself away by your words and style, then you will be less upfront imo.

Of course, how we start off is how we'll continue - and maybe we were not thinking of such things in our first days of Shipdom.
I disagree. I've no wish to reveal myself, yet I find myself being more open as time passes. At least with sharing my general experiences; details remain private.
Perhaps I am odd person out, though.

What I meant was - if we start off using our real name there is no way back. Or is there on name amnesties?

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

There are occasionally name amnesties, but what with google and all, I think a determined person could use one's member number to trace name changes.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

Funny, for a person who wishes to remain anonymous here, I truly hate name change amnesties. I build contextual mental constructs of posters and associate them with their board names and avatars. This allows for a more appropriate response to statements made. Name changes demolish this for me.

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
What I meant was - if we start off using our real name there is no way back. Or is there on name amnesties?

Same for strong statements. Even though we can grow and change,our earlier positions can haunt.

[ 07. January 2014, 19:09: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :

quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I must admit I have thought about this. I reckon that in a few years time, some prostective MP or minister or whatever, who posted something stupid on a forum when younger, will be confronted by that post after the newspapers track and hack through forum memberships and related posts.

Not me as I don't intend standing for public election, but I think that the time will come when a prospective minister (or US equivalent) will be asked...

"Whe you posted at 21:38 on May 16th 2002 that 'Eugenics was okay in principle' on the Ship of Fools forum where you were logged in with the user name 'GodLovesMeLongTime', what did you mean by that? doesn't the public have a right to know?"

I do wonder when the press will turn their attention to the mass of potentially embarrassing quotes left lying around on 'net fora by our future leaders, or indeed, footballers.

That's me stuffed. I'll never make Bishop.

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

I've also come to the conclusion that no one using the internet is anonymous . Neither are we anonymous when we use our mobile phones come to that . Going a bit tangent-wise on surveillance paranoia I know .

What did change my posting style was the realisation that posting on the Internet ,(or even passing on a link), is in effect publishing and therefore subject to libel laws .

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Anyone who was at school with me or who knows me socially, or from many of my professional contacts, would very easily identify me. That ease of identification makes me very careful in what I say - just as I would be in any public context.

A few years ago, Duo Seraphim let slip that she had sent out fee notes in a particular case. From that, I knew instantly who she was. I'm fairly certain that I know Multipara socially and that our parents also knew each other. Still miss her postings, with their strong dose of common sense.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

I'm me and fairly easy to find. I chose a nickname online because my real name is rather boring and choosing a nickname is fun. But I don't ever kid myself that it provides anonymity.

Posted by Dennis the Menace (# 11833) on :

I would be extremely easy to find from my surname of which is the only one left now in Australia. However, Dennis is not my real name, it is the name my Mum wanted to call me but Dad won!!

As said previously, one should never say anything on social media that one wouldn't say in public.

Posted by Bob Two-Owls (# 9680) on :

The workplace has turned largely to short term contracts these days so I am likely to be interviewed for a job at least once a year. In the past I have had questions on my extra-curricular interests that could only have come from a net trawl based on my name, nothing on my CV, nothing I have mentioned. Fortunately these have been limited to the few sports and hobby sites where I use my own name, martial arts, cycling etc. If I were required to use my real name everywhere on the net then I would never use places such as the Ship, it would be too risky for future employment. Not because of anything controversial I might post but just because I would be showing an interest in something of which an employer may disapprove.

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