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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Solution Of The Mind-Body Problem
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Frank Mitchell
planked
# 17946
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Posted
Out-Of-The-Body Experiences have been known for a long time, and seen as evidence for Survival After Death. Nowadays civilians get them during Road Accidents. Soldiers have always encountered them in battle, along with other Mystical Experiences (see the Bhagavad-Gita).
The Ancient Greeks knew about them, in fact that's why they started to believe immortality wasn't reserved for Gods only. Before that, they seemed to have a more modern view: Out-Of-The Body Experiences are a form of Animal Hypnosis for tackling stressful life-threatening situations. They enable you to dissociate your normal Consciousness from the usual sense of danger and stop you feeling pain.
So around 500 BC they had a viable theory for the mechanism which makes your mind feel separate from your body.
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Faictz Ce Que Vouldras
Posts: 72 | From: Cheshire, England | Registered: Dec 2013
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I'm feeling generous this afternoon, so I suggest we take this thread as an invitation to discuss the phenomenon of out of body experiences and any relation we believe they may have to personal survival after death.
Frank Mitchell, final warning. If you don't do better in giving some indication of what you'd like Shipmates to discuss, I'm just going to close your OPs. Anyone can open an OP here but it's actually discourteous to your Shipmates just to maunder for a few lines and expect them to catch your drift.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
As so many of the reports include looking down on the scene, so that they are able to describe people they couldn't have seen when they 'come back', I think it likely that they are a sign of hope for the afterlife. The 'Being of Light' and the flashback of their lives are interesting too. Have they fed into religious beliefs from early nde's, do nde's confirm the beliefs, or both?
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Frank Mitchell
planked
# 17946
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Posted
Oo, my bad. I wasn't expecting the Spanish Inquisition... I still haven't found this rule. Is it something to do with Disk Space or Bandwidth? Personally I don't mind what other people want to discuss, though if they started another debate about Margaret Thatcher, I'd wonder why. What interests me, is the possibility that long ago there already was a viable solution to the Mind-Body Problem. I just wanted to see what people had to say, assuming they're interested.
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Faictz Ce Que Vouldras
Posts: 72 | From: Cheshire, England | Registered: Dec 2013
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Take it to the Styx, Frank Mitchell. Post an OP there, asking the question. Other Hosts, Admin and Shipmates can express their views on what I'm ruling. Don't discuss it here.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Frank Mitchell:
What interests me, is the possibility that long ago there already was a viable solution to the Mind-Body Problem. I just wanted to see what people had to say, assuming they're interested.
I'm certainly interested in the mind-body problem. However, out-of-body experiences at best are an odd curiosity as far as that deep scientific and philosophical problem is concerned. "Explaining" them in terms of hallucinations tells me next to nothing about whether and how mind may arise from brain, and if there were no out-of-body experiences at all it would not make the mind-body problem go away. Frankly, I have no idea what you are going on about here.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Frank Mitchell
planked
# 17946
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Posted
I can tell you one reason why Out-Of-The-Body Experiences happen. I used to know a guy who kept getting them, usually just after waking up. He regarded them as important evidence for his belief in Reincarnation. This chap had Asthma, in fact he had it so bad that he'd attended a Special School for the Disabled. There's also the phenomenon of Sleep Paralysis, which stops you walking in your sleep, but can affect your breathing. This all suggests a connection with Oxygen Deprivation. I've heard that life-threatening situations cause your blood supply to be routed preferentially away from your brain and more to your muscles, so they can respond with Fight-Or-Flight. Maybe you can tell me more?
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Faictz Ce Que Vouldras
Posts: 72 | From: Cheshire, England | Registered: Dec 2013
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
As so many of the reports include looking down on the scene, so that they are able to describe people they couldn't have seen when they 'come back', I think it likely that they are a sign of hope for the afterlife. The 'Being of Light' and the flashback of their lives are interesting too. Have they fed into religious beliefs from early nde's, do nde's confirm the beliefs, or both?
Yes. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
This is veering slightly down the wrong track, though. It's not exactly wishful thinking or religious indoctrination that causes NDEs, rather it's normal neurological processes as the body starts to shut down, later rationalised within the brain. Fortunately or not, the brain's very good at this, and weaves elaborate stories for us. The observations aren't a sign of hope for an afterlife, but our later interpretation indicates an awareness of the concept.
Elements of NDEs have been directly replicated in lab conditions - for example, pilots under extreme gravitational forces report a narrowing field of vision to the point where they only see a tunnel of light, and this can be induced in simulators. Kevin Nelson's done a lot of good research into NDEs, and has written some excellent books on the subject covering this in much more detail than I can.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
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anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
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Posted
Frank Mitchell:
You really need to elucidate what you mean by an out of the body experience, and whether there is any way to verify them.
Until then I will assume that subjective accounts of what people take to be ootb experiences are lacking in any evidential value.
I've had odd experiences associated with sleep states and take them to be lucid dreams. I don't want to suggest people are lying, but such personal accounts do not move the question forward. Like Bishop Montefiore stating that he was converted because Jesus appeared to him. Quite possibly he did, but I would not expect a skeptic to set any store by it.
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Schnuffle schnuffle.
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
I attended a lecture given by Susan Blakemore who spent twenty years as an academic studying parapsychology. She announced that she was stopping because all the trails she had followed had led nowhere.
She had also had the opportunity to follow up the out of body experience that had started her research: apparently looking down on her Oxford college from above. On being allowed to visit the roof, it was nothing like her experience.
Obviously this stuff happens, but as to whether it is ever more than a mind in free fall, I am very doubtful.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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Frank Mitchell
planked
# 17946
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Posted
One famous Near Death Experience is described in Plato. It concerns Er the Pamphylian, who fell in battle. His body was transported back to Greece in a coma, and he woke up just in time to avoid being cremated. Whereupon he described his visit to the Underworld, confirming Ancient Greek beliefs.
But the Greeks also knew of Out-Of-The-Body Experiences without near-death injuries, and that's what I'm really talking about. The Dionysian rituals aimed to produce an Altered State of Ekstasis (ecstasy) literally "Standing Outside Yourself". Socrates and Plato believed you could reach a Higher Plane Of Being by going into a similar Shamanic Trance, but in their case it was induced by fancying attractive boys.
Other Greeks seem to have realized that this phenomenon isn't an abnormal state. Your Mind feels separate from your Body anyway. It just gets more noticeable in some situations.
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Faictz Ce Que Vouldras
Posts: 72 | From: Cheshire, England | Registered: Dec 2013
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
So what's the solution and what's the problem?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
Looking for proof is a denial of faith.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
Looking for proof is a denial of faith.
Said Jesus to Thomas.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Oxygen deprivation does connect with hallucinating. Seem to recall seeing tests of the effects of reduced air pressure simulating high altitude situations. The late Dougal Haston wrote very vividly of his strange experiences in a very high, emergency, overnight bivouac on Everest (over 28,000 feet) following his successful climb to the summit. He and Doug Scott ran out of oxygen very early on during the bivouac. Cold was probably a contributory factor, and that can also impact blood circulation. They were very lucky to get back safely and virtually unharmed.
For my money, this does seem the best physiological explanation for these experiences during serious illness or following trauma. or maybe doing something to promote ecstatic states which has some effect on blood supply to the brain. (Thinking Sufi whirling dervishes for example).
Whether you think there might be any supernatural or paranormal connections as well, or whether you should apply Occam's razor to such speculations, is probably a matter of personal choice.
(Edited. Doug Scott was Haston's partner, not the late Mick Burke, who died on an attempt during that expedition)
[ 11. January 2014, 10:05: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
So what's the solution and what's the problem?
Martin, I found the solution in 1978, but I'd forgotten what the question was. Any idea?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
q. Have you forgotten the solution? May be we can work out the the question if not?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Whether you think there might be any supernatural or paranormal connections as well, or whether you should apply Occam's razor to such speculations, is probably a matter of personal choice.
Applying Occam's Razor would suggest that the simplest and most obvious solution is the best one.
The most obvious explanation is that these situations transport us temporarily into a spiritual realm, where we see and experience "ineffable" things. This is what the people who experience them believe and what most cultures have long accepted.
Books like "Proof of Heaven" are attempts to make this simple and obvious explanation acceptable to the skeptical western mind.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
The razor cuts both ways, Freddy! FWIW, oxygen deprivation is a simple physiological solution, replicable in test conditions. And FWIW, the interpretation you give is also simple, and consistent with a lot of human testimony. Which 'simple' hits the 'more credible' spot? YMMV.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Frank Mitchell
planked
# 17946
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Posted
There's a religion where Oxygen Deprivation has been used to create out-Of-The-Body Events, though they may have abandoned it now. This is the Wiccan or witchcraft religion, founded by Gerald Gardner. If you look at his "Book Of Shadows" you find a practice called "Blood Control". It's a sort of Ritual Bondage technique with your hands tied behind your back and the rope passing around your neck. This puts pressure on the Carotid Arteries, which supply blood to your brain. You may not notice this because your attention is diverted by the Ritual Spanking which goes with it.
Applied strongly, this is an effective Killing Technique, which you'll find in US Army Combat Manuals. Used cautiously, it becomes an anaesthetic, as described by Aristotle and Galen. It's well-known to Dentists, in fact I used to have a Dentist who knew all about the Wiccan ritual, and thought it wasn't terribly dangerous.
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Faictz Ce Que Vouldras
Posts: 72 | From: Cheshire, England | Registered: Dec 2013
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I'm not sceptical about oxygen deprivation explaining all of these phenomena at all. I'm completely convinced.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
I'm not sceptical about oxygen deprivation explaining all of these phenomena at all. I'm completely convinced.
Except that oxygen deprivation doesn't explain the content of the phenomena. No one doubts that it is oxygen deprivation that brings these experiences about. But what does that really tell you about the nature of the experience?
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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PaulBC
Shipmate
# 13712
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Posted
I doubt that there is 1 explanation for NDE's
some natural, lock of Oxegyn, sleep deprivation etc some fall in that you had a wonderous experience. that I take from an account of a WW I soldier who at the front was in the toilet and his brother shows up & says come with me. Next moment a shell hits the toilet the man is safe . But feels foolish when recounting the event to his officers , who say we are all men here. So he retells what happened and the fact that his brother was listed as MIA a few month earlier. The senior officer then said you have had a wonderful experience.
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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
Posts: 873 | From: Victoria B.C. Canada | Registered: May 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
It tells me that a mind undergoing oxygen deprivation or coming and going in consciousness makes stuff up. Nothing else.
As for soldiers' stories, they are all true I'm sure and certainly all easily explained by chance.
Nothing to be sceptical about there.
[ 12. January 2014, 09:11: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
q. Have you forgotten the solution? May be we can work out the the question if not?
No, the solution has always stayed with me. I am fundamentally the space in which all things arise. But I can't remember what this is the solution to. Maybe everything, or nothing.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
It would make you solipsistically God the Amnesic. So if we want to know what happens next and thereby work out a bit more what the chain of events is, the narrative, all we have to do is ... kill you.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
It would make you solipsistically God the Amnesic. So if we want to know what happens next and thereby work out a bit more what the chain of events is, the narrative, all we have to do is ... kill you.
Very interesting point. A lot of mystics say exactly that - that ego death is required, in order to become that universal space, or whatever you call it. In fact, I believe it is mentioned occasionally in Christianity. Then there are two types of I, the little one, and large (universal) one. This avoids solipsism, incidentally, since the ego point of view is extinguished.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
What, the ego is so infinitely vast it's attenuated? Like giant stars or the universe in general? The opposite of God's.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
I've had an out of body experience, but I was in hospital at the time with a bloodstream full of medically administered opiates. Even though I was near death I am not looking for a spiritual explanation of this.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
What, the ego is so infinitely vast it's attenuated? Like giant stars or the universe in general? The opposite of God's.
Eh? I was talking about ego-death. In Eastern religions, non-dualism gives way to the One, but you can find this in Christianity also. This is why there is no solipsism - you can also find this in Bishop Berkeley, who also seemed to avoid it, by suggesting that ideas were in the mind of God.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Sorry, I mistyped there - that should read 'dualism gives way to non-dualism, i.e. the One'.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I know dun I. Wotchew wuz taw'kin' abart. Ego-death. It's not Judeo-Christian-Islamic. We ent gunna be the Borg.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Martin - it's often called self-abandonment in Christianity, see for example, 'Self-abandonment to divine providence', by de Caussade, a classic of Christian mysticism.
See also, Simone Weil, 'God gave me being in order that I should give it back to him' ('Gravity and Grace').
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
'dualism gives way to non-dualism, i.e. the One'.
I am happy to say that there isn't really a dualism of the spiritual and natural. They are intrinsically unified. There is only one reality.
But this doesn't solve the problem.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
'dualism gives way to non-dualism, i.e. the One'.
I am happy to say that there isn't really a dualism of the spiritual and natural. They are intrinsically unified. There is only one reality.
But this doesn't solve the problem.
That's not the dualism that is usually referred to in Eastern religions - it's the dualism of self/other, or ego/non-ego. It seems to be also described in some of the Christian mystics, e.g. Angelus Silesius: 'God, whose love and joy are present everywhere, can't come to visit you unless you aren't there'.
A comparable Zen story is about the Zen master who makes tea for a Buddhist scholar, and keeps pouring tea into his cup until it overflows. The scholar protests, and the Zen man points out that an empty cup is desirable if you want tea.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
That's not the dualism that is usually referred to in Eastern religions - it's the dualism of self/other, or ego/non-ego.
I see. How does that relate to the mind-body problem?
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
That's not the dualism that is usually referred to in Eastern religions - it's the dualism of self/other, or ego/non-ego.
I see. How does that relate to the mind-body problem?
I do humbly apologize, as Martin and I had, most regrettably, begun to talk about the ego, and how it relates to mystical experience and various kinds of dualism. I accept that this was a meretricious tangent, and I only hope that in future I will not be tempted by such diabolical temptation.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
quetzalcoatl: meretricious
(I didn't know this word.)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
quetzalcoatl: meretricious
(I didn't know this word.)
I did but it is one where the meaning changed. It used to mean relating to prostitution or prostitutes (usually metaphorically in the context of someone doing something dodgy for money), but like 'fulsome' it has moved on somewhat.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Aye quetzalcoatl, it might be nihilism by the back door but it ain't vulgar.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I accept that this was a meretricious tangent, and I only hope that in future I will not be tempted by such diabolical temptation.
No need to apologize. It is clearly Martin's fault.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Aye quetzalcoatl, it might be nihilism by the back door but it ain't vulgar.
I don't think the Christian form of non-dualism is nihilistic; at least, if you look at the line by Angelus Silesius above, he says, 'God's love and joy are present everywhere', but it's the ego which messes this up. In fact, this isn't particularly controversial, is it?
As to non-Christian forms of non-dualism, I'm not sure, although I'm pretty sure that in advaita, for example, the liberation from ego is seen as a liberation from selfish attachment.
It's interesting also, going back to the OP, that one of the prime identifications which are described is that with the body. I suppose you could say that for Westerners, identification with the mind (as intellect) is also quite strong. In Eastern religions, these might be seen as attachments which split reality into fragments, leading to a deep anguish and yearning for wholeness.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I accept that this was a meretricious tangent, and I only hope that in future I will not be tempted by such diabolical temptation.
No need to apologize. It is clearly Martin's fault.
I know, I keep telling him, he's not the mashiach, he's just a very naughty boy!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Not THE Ego. In whose image we each, individually, are and therefore will eternally be.
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Love wins
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