Ship of Fools: Tipping

Thread: Tipping Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on :

All four of my daughters worked in restaurants when they were students and they all relied on tips as an important part of their income.

I was brought up by an American mother and an Irish father and I was taught to tip anyone who had provided me with a service such a waiter, hairdresser or cab driver. I was also taught to give a Christmas tip to anyone who had supplied a service throughout the year such as postal/ milk delivery.

I have quite a few friends who refuse to tip at all and they get quite hot under the collar about it. I find it a minefield (kindness v condescension) and once a new hairdresser I visited refused a tip and was a little bit insulted..... [Hot and Hormonal]

.

So my questions are:
Do you tip?
If so, whom,when and what?
And what would be your rationale for tipping/ not tipping?

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

And of course this is one of those discussions where what we do probably will differ greatly partially based on where we live. In the US one should tip waiters 15-20 percent for instance, since they will have to share the tip, will often get taxed on it whether or not you tip, and aren't paid even a minimum wage, let alone a living wage. But I gather that is very different in other countries.

Re hairdressers, I was always taught that you tip unless it's the owner.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

In the Netherlands, restaurant prices are so high that I wouldn't dream of tipping even 10%. I usually round the price upwards and that's it.

Here in Brazil, a 10% service fee is usually included in the bill.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

In short, it depends upon the custom where you are receiving the tippable (or not) service.

Posted by Caissa (# 16710) on :

Here in Canada, I almost always tip 15% unless the service is incredibly lousy in which case the tip drops to 10 or a bit lower.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

Rant Alert

I really resent tipping. I'd go further than this, and ask how anyone can rationally think otherwise?

If I go to a restaurant, why should the proprietor expect me to pay his staff to bring the food to the table? And why should he expect me to pay part of his staff's wages for him just so that he can make his prices look lower on the board outside.

And why should one be expected to leave a tip in a cafe or a restaurant when one doesn't in a pub?

And if the Inland Revenue is taxing people on the assumption they are getting tips when they aren't, that's even worse.

Having said that, I do usually comply with convention on all these occasions and pay up. After all, it isn't the waiter's fault that his grasping employer doesn't pay properly.

And why is there a collection for the driver on a coach outing when you don't pay a tip on your bus fare or train fare?

End of Rant Alert

I should add, it's rare here, and would be regarded as ostentatious or a bit odd, to tip more than 10%.

[ 13. January 2014, 15:16: Message edited by: Enoch ]

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
Here in Canada, I almost always tip 15% unless the service is incredibly lousy in which case the tip drops to 10 or a bit lower.

Do you attempt to determine if the service is lousy due to the negligence of the waiter versus due to the management scheduling too few waiters for the number of tables in service? You may still be punishing the wrong person.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

Enoch, things may be different in the UK. Here in the States it was common in the 1980s for waiters to be paid $2.50 an hour (the minimum wage at the time was $3.40), and they were expected to make up the difference in their tips. If they made no tips, they were working for less than minimum wage.

The minimum wage is now higher, of course, and I imagine waiters' hourly wages are also higher, though in most places still well below minimum. Some cities have "living wage" laws that require all employers to pay a basic wage set by the city, and I don't know how restaurant employees are affected by those.

In any case, you pay. If tipping is not a custom in the locale, then restaurant prices have to be higher to support the higher wages of the servers, bus boys, et al. If tipping is a custom, the menu prices are lower, but tips are expected to cover the cost of labor. What is absolutely not cool is refusing to tip on some spurious principle that it's "extortive" or whatever. In the US, tipping is part of the cost of eating out. You factor it in. If you can't afford the 15% tip to the server, then you can't afford to go to a restaurant. Simple as that.

Posted by Caissa (# 16710) on :

Mousethief:I can usually tell if the service is the fault of the waiter or management. Usually, it takes rudeness and/or abject neglect for me to reduce a tip.

Posted by piglet (# 11803) on :

As others have said, local practices vary: when we tried to tip a taxi driver in Reykjavik he very politely, but equally firmly, refused.

The usual practice here in Canada seems to be to tip about 15%, unless a service charge is specified.

I'm reminded of an excruciatingly embarrassing situation when six of us had a very long wait for our food at an up-market restaurant where we were well-known to the owners. It was New Year's Eve, the restaurant had rather overstretched themselves with bookings and our main courses didn't arrive until 11:45 (we'd been there since about 9:00). When the bills arrived, one of the party refused to pay the service charge specified for parties of six or more. I could sort of see his point, but I felt very sorry for the waitress, whose fault it wasn't (cf. what Mousethief said).

It was about 18 months before we had the nerve to go back ...

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

It's very much a cultural thing.

Round here you tip if you found the service especially good - it's not expected.

I tip the hairdresser, but not the taxi driver. We tip in restaurants but only if the service was good.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

My Canadian experience: tipping is restaurants is expected, tipping for other services is not expected. Some people do, and this is a creeping influence I believe from the American experience where tips are more common for other services.

About penalizing the wrong person re restaurant tips. Tips go into a tip pool and and split among the staff in most. So everyone benefits and suffers.

When we were poor tips were very carefully considered. Not poor now, so much freer with them. This is probably as influential as quality of service.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Enoch, things may be different in the UK. Here in the States it was common in the 1980s for waiters to be paid $2.50 an hour (the minimum wage at the time was $3.40),

Which is the problem of course. "minimum wage" doesn't mean "minimum wage" in that system - it means "minimum wage for everyone except the poor, recent immigrants, ethnic the old, the young, the homeless, niggers of all colours, ethnic minorites in general, Muslims, migrant workers, cripples and everyone else we don't like for values of "we" including right-wing Republican-voting business-owning millionaires".

And the way to fix it for the majority of Americans to start voting in their own interests instead of those of their oppressors. And maybe organising a few decent unions. So that the minimum-wage laws they already have can be enforced instead of ignored by the bosses.

But this is an old, old, thread.

[ 13. January 2014, 16:11: Message edited by: ken ]

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
If tipping is not a custom in the locale, then restaurant prices have to be higher to support the higher wages of the servers, bus boys, et al. If tipping is a custom, the menu prices are lower, but tips are expected to cover the cost of labor.

Presumably this works out to roughly the same amount that each diner actually pays, so why not just increase prices and wages and abolish tipping?

That way, any potential diner looking at the menu won't have to perform mental arithmetic to work out how much their meal is really going to cost.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
In the US, tipping is part of the cost of eating out. You factor it in. If you can't afford the 15% tip to the server, then you can't afford to go to a restaurant. Simple as that.

I agree with this.
However, I still do not like the US system.
1. Not all servers end the day with the equivalent of a reasonable wage.
2. People should be cognizant of the total cost of any transaction. However it is a demonstrated fact that they are not.
And the server is the one screwed if the total is not properly considered.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

Originally Posted by MtM

quote:
That way, any potential diner looking at the menu won't have to perform mental arithmetic to work out how much their meal is really going to cost.

US establishments also leave tax out of their pricing.

[ 13. January 2014, 16:25: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Marvin the Martian: That way, any potential diner looking at the menu won't have to perform mental arithmetic to work out how much their meal is really going to cost.

We had big problems with this when we were in Russia. We ordered from the menu, and I usually paid a 10–15% tip and then rounded upwards.

But in the end, we always ended up with too little money on the table. Sometimes it caused strange looks between us "Who has paid too little?" But it was because there was tax and tourist tax and service fee and ...

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

And that is why one should be diligent in attempting to learn the local customs.
It is a pain, though. Most travelers will have stories about not getting something right.

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
About penalizing the wrong person re restaurant tips. Tips go into a tip pool and and split among the staff in most. So everyone benefits and suffers.

In this country, that definitely varies by restaurant.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

Like others, I would really prefer that service staff were decently paid. But they aren't, and not tipping won't solve that.

I do my best to go by local custom in these matters but my with-experience-as-waiters friends routinely condemn me for my parsimony. In the US, I tip 15-20% and in Canada, about 15% (I usually tip the tax) but they tell me I should follow their practice of tipping about 25%.

In Spain, I have had tips returned to me by waiters who clearly thought that I was being patronizing, and then followed my Spanish friends' practice of simply leaving some of their change (the "brown money" of 1c, 5c, 10c, and 20c) on the table.

One of my very proper senior policy adviser former colleagues told me that, when she was waitressing part-time as a graduate student, toward the end of the month when women staff began to run out of money, they simply left another button undone and their tips skyrocketed. She noted that this didn't work in the government. She also noted that tip rates varied by restaurants and the amount she made had little to do with quality of service, but rather by the restaurant's mini-culture, the hour of the day, the amount of alcohol consumed, and if the bill-payer was trying to impress others at the table.

Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on :

I really do agree about learning about the local custom, it's one of the first things I do when I arrive in a new place.
I also learned from my daughters to leave tips in cash as otherwise it varies from establishment to establishment as to whether or not they actually get it.

I find what Enoch said interesting: why has it become normal practice to tip a coach driver but not the bus driver? Is it something to do with working in public service? In that case why do people tip the refuse collectors at Christmas?

I also wish that people were paid a living wage so any tips really are an extra blessing rather than a necessity for survival.
As I said, as someone who wants to get things "right", I find things like this stressful!

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

One year our school Christmas meal was held in a restaurant owned by a friend of a colleague - I couldn't go that year, and was very pleased I didn't when I found that the tips were taken by the owner, and not distributed to the staff. The colleague could not see that there was anything wrong with this. At the time, I conflated this with the colleague's known support for Mrs Thatcher, as part of her argument was that the owner was to be rewarded for making the opportunity for work available.

Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :

I tip like crazy, and I tip BAD service More! (on the assumption they are having a bad day and need cheering up) lol it's so cool.

Tip big your misrerable bastards!

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
... She noted that this didn't work in the government. ...

I'm a bit puzzled by this. Is there a context in Canada or the US when one normally tips government staff? Here, for example, local authority staff can't receive gifts. It's regarded as suspiciously like a bribe. Even if they are given sandwiches by hosts at a meeting that goes over lunch time, they have to declare it in a book to avoid the risk of future suspicion.

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
If tipping is not a custom in the locale, then restaurant prices have to be higher to support the higher wages of the servers, bus boys, et al. If tipping is a custom, the menu prices are lower, but tips are expected to cover the cost of labor.
Presumably this works out to roughly the same amount that each diner actually pays, so why not just increase prices and wages and abolish tipping?

That way, any potential diner looking at the menu won't have to perform mental arithmetic to work out how much their meal is really going to cost.

I'd be for that, and I suspect most people would find it easier as well. There would be a vocal minority bitching loudly about how "ex-PEN-seeeeve" eating out had become, though, and how it was all Obama's fault.

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
I tip like crazy, and I tip BAD service More! (on the assumption they are having a bad day and need cheering up) lol it's so cool.

Tip big your misrerable bastards!

Yeah, my base is 20%, going up with particularly friendly service. And only partially because the math is slightly easier than 15%.

We don't go out to eat often, but when we do, we like to go on an odd weekday afternoon and sit at the bar. You usually get to chat with the server, and that can often pay dividends in the form of a comped drink or two. If you comp us a drink, the price of the drink is coming back to you on top of the normal tip.

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

In the United States waiters are taxed on their tip income. It's presumed to be at least 8% of the bill by the Internal Revenue. So if you don't tip, you're making the waiter pay for the privilege of serving you.
I tip 15 to 20% depending on the quality of the service unless it is exceptionally bad. The waiters usually share tips with cooks and busboys so poor tips for extremely poor service are shared.

Tipping other people is a regional custom. In New York it is usual to tip many of the other service staff, Doormen, garbage men, the postal carriers, etc. In Seattle, this is viewed as the thin edge of the wedge of corruption, bribing civil servants for better service then they are supposed to deliver. I can also remember a bag boy refusing a tip for helping carry out bags to the car. He was surprised more than insulted for what would be a common gesture in New York.

Service staff also have stereotypes about who will tip well. Germans and single women are frequently given less exuberant service on the assumption they will tip poorly.

I'd rather restaurant staff get paid the same minimum wage as everyone else and tips be reduced to a rare special gesture. This is unlikely to happen. One argument against it is that servers seem to prefer the generosity of their customers to the munificence of the restaurant owners.

[ 13. January 2014, 18:24: Message edited by: Palimpsest ]

Posted by BessHiggs (# 15176) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:

The minimum wage is now higher, of course, and I imagine waiters' hourly wages are also higher, though in most places still well below minimum. Some cities have "living wage" laws that require all employers to pay a basic wage set by the city, and I don't know how restaurant employees are affected by those.

Sadly, minimum wage for tipped employees (classed as employees who receive at least $30/month in tips) has not increased along with standard minimum wage. Minimum wage for tipped employees is $2.13/hour. ( Dept of Labor notice) Should a tipped employee fail to make at least $5.13/hour in tips, the employer is supposed to make that short fall up in the employee's pay. In my experience, this rarely happens. People in the service industry are routinely screwed over by their employers - abuses like making an employee pay for walk-outs, requiring them to do opening or closing side work off the clock, requiring employees to claim set tip amounts, regardless of whether those amounts reflect what the server has acutally made, and failing to pay overtime wages.

Don't get me wrong, you can make a lot of money as a server, but you are at the mercy of both your employer and the paying public. And the paying public, for the most part, has no idea what kind of work servers actually do. For that $2.13/hour (what the employer pays), a typical server will be required to do any or all of the following tasks - in addtion to serving guests: bus tables, wash dishes, answer the phone, prep food items (salad bar ingredients eg), sweep/mop/vacuum, or clean restrooms. This is in addition to keeping his or her section stocked, clean, and orderly.

In any kind of even moderately busy establishment, a server will be on his or her feet for their entire shift. It's heavy, tiring work that is expected to be done with a smile and without complaint, while dealing with all the various sorts of folks who make up the general public. Servers are often treated like second class citizens, many people assume that because you deliver food and drinks for a living you are incapable of doing anything else. A good server makes it look easy, but not everyone can do it well. You need to be extremely organized, efficient, able to multi-task under pressure, able to think on your feet and solve proplems quickly.

Is serving rocket science? No. Is it as important and necessary a profession as say a doctor or police officer? No. But serving is a profession that is just as deserving of respect as any other.

And as for the employer paying more, sure it sounds great, although as has been pointed out, that will raise the price the consumer pays for their meal. But, compare the level of service you get at your average fast-food joint, where the employees are paid minimum wage with the service you get in a restaurant where the server knows that the better they take care of you the guest, the better chance they have for financial reward. It's a trade-off.

Now, if someone could please help me get off my soapbox...

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

My sons were wine waiters in Manchester when at university. They were well paid and some of the tips were enormous! I think well oiled, well off people were showing off - which certainly benefited my two!

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
Is it something to do with working in public service? In that case why do people tip the refuse collectors at Christmas?

When our refuse collector came round and said "Merry Christmas, I empty your bins" my husband would reply "Merry Christmas, I teach your children".

[Smile]

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

I only ever really tip in restaurants and then only if the food was very good and the service exceptional. I don't believe in obligatory tipping. In fact, feeling obliged to tip wil probably make me less likely to tip.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
Is it something to do with working in public service? In that case why do people tip the refuse collectors at Christmas?
When our refuse collector came round and said "Merry Christmas, I empty your bins" my husband would reply "Merry Christmas, I teach your children".

Do binmen in some areas actually ask for tips? I seem to think they are banned from doing so here. In any case, since they have no reason to call at the door (or even near it) and it's a bit daft to leave money on or in the bins, it's unlikely that we would see them.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by BessHiggs:
And as for the employer paying more, sure it sounds great, although as has been pointed out, that will raise the price the consumer pays for their meal.

Yes, but then they won't have to tip. It works out to the same amount.

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:
Originally posted by BessHiggs:
And as for the employer paying more, sure it sounds great, although as has been pointed out, that will raise the price the consumer pays for their meal.
Yes, but then they won't have to tip. It works out to the same amount.

Only for non-assholes, of course.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

I tip waiters, bar staff and hairdressers. Oh - and taxi drivers, although I seldom take taxis. I would prefer not to - I would far rather employers paid their staff properly - but that's not the way things customarily work in the US.

I don't tip in cash, though, because I generally don't have cash.

[ 13. January 2014, 20:23: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]

Posted by comet (# 10353) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
About penalizing the wrong person re restaurant tips. Tips go into a tip pool and and split among the staff in most. So everyone benefits and suffers.
In this country, that definitely varies by restaurant.

yes! be wary, this is a policy of establishment or at most local government thing. in my experience, pooling is the exception, not the rule. also - in most places, being forced to give a percentage of tips to management is illegal. so if you hear of a place doing it, turn them in!

I've been in the industry on and off for 25 years. I for one, will never work in an establishment that pools tips.

Thing is, I'm good at serving. I make bank at tips. others aren't always terribly good. plus, many places that pool will share tips with those not in the service portion of the job. This shows management's basic misunderstanding out how tipping works. plus, it means management is unwilling to pay their back-of-the-house staff properly. Management can pay servers below minimum, but not their chefs or bakers or cleaning staff. so those people are making more hourly than I am, but getting an equal portion of my tips? I don't think so.

The last place I worked at that pooled, I watched over $100 in tips come in, directly through my work, and after the manager apportioned out the tips, I was given $15. Not okay. Those tips are coming in because of my work.

greedy? why, yes. Don't be fooled - no matter how much we may otherwise love our jobs, we show up for the money. you know, like the rest of you. The beauty of a service job is that I get paid according to the effort I make and how good I am at my job. this is a very motivating factor. If I'm in an evil mood, it will show, and I'll walk away with zilch. it is worth it to me to leave my baggage at the door and turn on the charm.

Again, if one is good at this, the SI becomes worth it. in the right markets (mainly cities, and upscale establishments within them) servers can make very good money.

and it becomes a happy little loop when it works right. I hope you'll tip big, so I become your best friend when I'm serving. you want the chef to cook your steak in butter instead of oil? I'm on it. want 2.35 limes in your cocktail? not only will I make that happen but I'll make sure it's the same all night long. prefer your Old Fashioned made with homemade simple syrup instead of straight sugar? let me just whip up a batch in the back.

You get excellent, cheerful, quick, and specialty service, and you tip appropriately. We both walk away winners.

pooling tips kills that happy loop. it also takes away my motivation to bend over backward to give you an amazing experience, and suddenly serving becomes the dead-end, pointless job it looks like to the outside world. why would I give 100% for shit money? because the work is HARD and not terribly rewording.

Would I bust ass and do great work with no tips but a decent wage? probably. but knowing that seeking out that one perfect extra prawn or running to the store to get the blood orange for your customer's special twist will translate in being able to put gas in your car is a very motivating factor.

something I think worth considering - I have heard from many visitors from other countries (because we get a lot of foreign clientele in the industry up here) how amazing the servers in America are. we're so nice. so willing to help. so willing to go the extra mile. maybe... maybe there is a reason us crazy-overtipped american servers are so notoriously friendly and helpful.

and why your own minimum-wage overworked servers might be a little surly by the end of their shifts.

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
... She noted that this didn't work in the government. ...
I'm a bit puzzled by this. Is there a context in Canada or the US when one normally tips government staff? Here, for example, local authority staff can't receive gifts. It's regarded as suspiciously like a bribe. Even if they are given sandwiches by hosts at a meeting that goes over lunch time, they have to declare it in a book to avoid the risk of future suspicion.

I believe she was being ironical. Tipping a public servant is a criminal offense. We were regularly instructed that we were to report all attempts to present us with presents, gifts, or payments. Generally, we were allowed to accept coffee or tea at meetings, but nothing else-- sandwiches as suggested above were reported by memorandum to one's manager.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:
Originally posted by BessHiggs:
And as for the employer paying more, sure it sounds great, although as has been pointed out, that will raise the price the consumer pays for their meal.
Yes, but then they won't have to tip. It works out to the same amount.
Only for non-assholes, of course.

Surely that depends on the inflation factor used. It could end up with the generous tipper spaying the same and the assholes paying more.

Posted by comet (# 10353) on :

not sure what you mean, Marvin. The Dickhead Surcharge* is illegal in most places. do I understand you wrong?

*The Dickhead Surcharge: if you are irritable, rude, condescending, needy, or otherwise make serving you difficult, there will be an add-on amount to your bill.

Posted by comet (# 10353) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Service staff also have stereotypes about who will tip well. Germans and single women are frequently given less exuberant service on the assumption they will tip poorly.

really?

in my experience it's Japanese tourists (followed closely by the Australians), professional and semi-professional athletes, and (the worst) "self-made" rich people. Single women, especially if on the lower income side of things, are amazing tippers. As are most low-income folks.

Single men only catch up if you're showing a lot of leg or cleavage.

the best tippers of all time are other SI people, or the "young rich" showing off to their friends and colleagues as Boogie mentioned above.

[ 13. January 2014, 21:38: Message edited by: comet ]

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

Australians put a little extra in, maybe 10%, at restaurants. Most likely when in groups and no-one wants to try to distribute the change.

That's about it. I might tell a taxi driver to keep the change if the change is small and I'm in a hurry or something.

PS I'm grateful to comet for confirming our notoriety. [Big Grin]

[ 13. January 2014, 22:07: Message edited by: orfeo ]

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :

Tipping in Australia is certainly not the norm for which I am grateful. We occasinally leave a tip for exceptional service or maybe tell the cab driver to keep the few cents change, but I sincerely hope that the tipping custom is never established in my country.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by comet:
Single women, especially if on the lower income side of things, are amazing tippers. As are most low-income folks.

I have literally gone out to my car and collected quarters from the bottom of my book sack to make sure I left a decent tip.

Low income people do tend to treat other low income people well-- or as well as they can *. I've encountered this dynamic just about everywhere my own meager experience has taken me.

This is the reason I prefer to work in low-income childcare centers-- the people we serve know how it is to bust ass all day, and treat us accordingly.

*I have actually left apology notes when I have been unusually short on a proper tip.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by comet:
not sure what you mean, Marvin.

I thought Gwai was assuming that my proposal to increase both prices and wages in order to eliminate tipping would mean low tippers (assholes) paying about the same and generous tippers paying less. Whereas if prices/wages were increased such that every server got paid the equivalent of a generous tip for each meal it would be the generous tippers who would pay the same for their night out and the assholes who would pay more.

I understand you points about the tipping culture encouraging good service, but to my mind something has gone wrong when tipping an extra 15-20% of the bill becomes the expected amount regardless of service quality. Surely it would be better for all concerned if that expected amount was part of the "sticker price" of the meal and paid to the server through their normal wages, with any extra tip for better-than-expected service entirely at the customer's discretion (which is pretty much the situation here in the UK)?

Posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger (# 8891) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
Is it something to do with working in public service? In that case why do people tip the refuse collectors at Christmas?
When our refuse collector came round and said "Merry Christmas, I empty your bins" my husband would reply "Merry Christmas, I teach your children".

My father once replied "Merry Christmas, I fill them"!

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:
Originally posted by BessHiggs:
And as for the employer paying more, sure it sounds great, although as has been pointed out, that will raise the price the consumer pays for their meal.
Yes, but then they won't have to tip. It works out to the same amount.
Only for non-assholes, of course.
Surely that depends on the inflation factor used. It could end up with the generous tipper spaying the same and the assholes paying more.

Yeah, that's kind of what I meant. (Sorry, I was unclear.) That the assholes who didn't tip before would pay quite a bit more if it got put into the upfront price, and the assholes would scream shrilly.

Posted by Barefoot Friar (# 13100) on :

I tip $5 or 20%, whichever is higher.

I have, on occasion, felt the need to leave a much larger tip. Not so much because of the quality of service, but because it just seemed right at the time.

I never count off a tip when the server is overworked (it's not the server's fault if others call in sick or if management is too tightfisted to pay for adequate staff), or when the kitchen screws up my order (it's not the server's fault that the steak was medium when I ordered rare).

I do count off a tip if my glass gets empty and the server passes a time or two but doesn't notice. I also count off if I ask for my check and then have to wait more than ten minutes for it (although even that is ridiculous, even in a busy restaurant). But unless the server does something truly awful, I never let it drop below 10% in any case.

I rarely tip in self-serve (buffet) restaurants, especially if the server doesn't refill my glass. It depends on how much service they give, but it's always small.

I am especially merciful if I go in and notice servers hurriedly rolling silverware in napkins during the lunch or dinner service. That's usually a sign that it has pretty much gone to hell, and thus I'm a lot more understanding of mixed up orders and extra time.

As for the other, the taxi drivers (haven't ridden in one since I was a 5th grader), barbers, etc., I'm always a bit clueless. I tip my barber -- I usually give her a $20 bill to pay for my $12 haircut, and she keeps the change, but I don't know about the others. I never use bellboys, taxis, or concierges. If I did, I suppose I would look it up before going into it so I would know what to expect.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

I'll be honest, on my North American trip I found the experience of displayed prices having no relationship to the prices actually paid exhausting. Not being used to it.

It wasn't just the tips of course, it was also the tax regime. Perhaps the most disturbing moment of all was when I got to Oregon, where there was no tax to add, and I found myself being surprised that there was no tax to add, and then thinking to myself oh my God I've been here too long and I've started thinking like these crazy people to whom the advertised price doesn't mean anything.

It's hard to convey the delight and relief I felt when I bought a meal in Sydney Airport*, between my flight back from the USA and my flight home to Canberra. The experience of seeing prices and having the woman behind the till add them up and tell me how much money I had to pay and that was it was truly thrilling.

*There is no expectation whatsoever of a tip in somewhere like a food court in Australia. I could handle the idea of tipping in a North American restaurant (the percentage was the tricky bit). Seeing tip jars at places like Starbucks freaked me out.

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

quote:
Originally posted by bib:
Tipping in Australia is certainly not the norm for which I am grateful. We occasinally leave a tip for exceptional service or maybe tell the cab driver to keep the few cents change, but I sincerely hope that the tipping custom is never established in my country.

Indeed. Same here in Finland.

Posted by Sherwood (# 15702) on :

When I lived back home, I used to tip taxi drivers well, mainly because I used a lot of taxis. Since there was no guarantee of which driver I'd get when I called for one, I tipped well on the basis that if they all got a good tip from me, then they'd be at least pleasant in the future.
That was important for me due to my social anxiety disorder and, if I had to put myself in a one on one situation, I wanted to make sure the deck was stacked in my favour so as to reduce stress, if possible.

Regarding restaurants and bars, I do tip, but I only tip what I can afford. Luckily for me I'm British, so it wasn't so important to make sure the percentage was "suitable" or not.
Not having been out to dinner at a restaurant in Finland (Hesburger doesn't count!) I can't say what's expected here or not, but I'll ask my wife what's expected if and when the situation arises.

[EDIT: or just read the above post!]

[ 14. January 2014, 13:08: Message edited by: Sherwood ]

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I'll be honest, on my North American trip I found the experience of displayed prices having no relationship to the prices actually paid exhausting. Not being used to it.

It wasn't just the tips of course, it was also the tax regime. Perhaps the most disturbing moment of all was when I got to Oregon, where there was no tax to add, and I found myself being surprised that there was no tax to add, and then thinking to myself oh my God I've been here too long and I've started thinking like these crazy people to whom the advertised price doesn't mean anything. ...

Good grief. Is that really so? That's both barmy and dreadful. I don't think I could cope with that.

I'm fairly sure that unless you are a wholesaler, it's illegal here to post prices exclusive of VAT, and that if you do, the punter is entitled to insist on paying you the net price and expect you to bear the VAT. You do occasionally, if you're using a place that sells to the trade as well, find yourself in places which show both figures, but they have to make it clear they are doing that.

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

I remember staying in Boston once, and being presented with a bill that had, I think, 3 separate percentage line items added on to the price quoted.

Me: What's this one?

Them: That's the Convention tax, sir.

Me: But I'm not attending a convention!

Them: No sir, it's to pay for our new convention center. You have to pay it I'm afraid.

WTF?

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I'll be honest, on my North American trip I found the experience of displayed prices having no relationship to the prices actually paid exhausting. Not being used to it.

I think that's exactly it. We assume everything costs a bit more than it says. You're right though that that's bizarre on the face of it. When I was buying groceries for Community, and needed to count my dollars exactly, I kept a running total in my head of all the prices plus ten percent-ish. I have heard though that places have tried putting tax into their prices, but everyone yells at them for raising prices, because apparently many people don't notice that they pay taxes. They only look at the sticker price, and furiously prefer that it's lower even if that just makes the taxes invisible.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
They only look at the sticker price, and furiously prefer that it's lower even if that just makes the taxes invisible.

Do these people not notice that their item has magically increased in price between them taking it off the shelf and actually paying for it?

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

I gather not. Seriously, don't forget that most people are morons.

(Yes, this is from an acquaintance who runs a store who tried it, and from a store I shop at that also tried it. Both had the same problem. My acquaintance undid it. The store I shopped at put up crabby signs explaining what they had done.)

Marvin, I think we are mostly agreeing now on two threads in Purg at the same time. Might the end times be nigh?

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
They only look at the sticker price, and furiously prefer that it's lower even if that just makes the taxes invisible.
Do these people not notice that their item has magically increased in price between them taking it off the shelf and actually paying for it?

The brain takes shortcuts when it process information. People know the item will cost more, but still has the perception of the lower price. In the same way 9.99 will sell many more units than 10.00 will.
Also, tax varies by state and city in America.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
I gather not. Seriously, don't forget that most people are morons.

ISTM, this is an unfair characterisation. Our brains are wired to shortcut through the massive amount of information received.
Advertisers, manufacturers and retailers spend massive amounts to influence our purchasing decisions.
Whilst we love to feel smug in our intellect, I'd wager most people make far more decisions based upon manipulated perception than they are aware.
Does this relive responsibility, no. But it is not as simple as stupid. V. smart.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

Also, tax varies by state and city in America.

And on this front, many people with a political preference for lower taxes prefer the existing scheme, because you get a big line at the bottom of the receipt that tells you how much the government is taking.

Personally, I think that argument is nonsense, for all kinds of reasons.

Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on :

I feel the need to confess that I am appalling at arithmetic so when I tip,I have to work out the amount based on 10% initially and take it from there. I honestly find it really stressful....

Here in Kenya, away from the tourist zone tipping is very rare so we delight in giving small tips and people are astonished and grateful and amusingly in places where we are now known people are also very keen to serve us!

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
I gather not. Seriously, don't forget that most people are morons.
ISTM, this is an unfair characterisation. Our brains are wired to shortcut through the massive amount of information received.
Advertisers, manufacturers and retailers spend massive amounts to influence our purchasing decisions.
Whilst we love to feel smug in our intellect, I'd wager most people make far more decisions based upon manipulated perception than they are aware.
Does this relive responsibility, no. But it is not as simple as stupid. V. smart.

I think you are mainly just being kinder than I am. I don't really disagree with what you said. Except I think people actually prefer to be ignorant. I think they WANT to live in lala land, and not have to notice how much tax they are paying. Similarly with taxes taken out of paychecks. Studies have been done, and people very much want to not-notice such things. That is the kind of thing that makes me lose respect for humanity. (And because I'm crabby!)

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
[QUOTE]]I think that's exactly it. We assume everything costs a bit more than it says. You're right though that that's bizarre on the face of it. When I was buying groceries for Community, and needed to count my dollars exactly, I kept a running total in my head of all the prices plus ten percent-ish.

Yes my wife and daughter have just discovered this the hard way. Charged an extra $120 in Hawaii for a room stay - a charge mentioned nowhere on the booking or in the hotel. Cue international incident and consulates ..... apparently it's legal. You can understand why they are now reluctant to tip for the rest of their stay there.

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

Also, tax varies by state and city in America.
And on this front, many people with a political preference for lower taxes prefer the existing scheme, because you get a big line at the bottom of the receipt that tells you how much the government is taking.

Personally, I think that argument is nonsense, for all kinds of reasons.

One of those reasons no doubt being that those of us in countries where inclusive prices are quoted also always have the tax component broken out at the bottom of the bill. So quoting tax-inclusive prices has no impact on that.

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Originally posted by Gwai:

quote:
I think that's exactly it. We assume everything costs a bit more than it says. You're right though that that's bizarre on the face of it. When I was buying groceries for Community, and needed to count my dollars exactly, I kept a running total in my head of all the prices plus ten percent-ish.
Yes my wife and daughter have just discovered this the hard way. Charged an extra $120 in Hawaii for a room stay - a charge mentioned nowhere on the booking or in the hotel. Cue international incident and consulates ..... apparently it's legal. You can understand why they are now reluctant to tip for the rest of their stay there.

Not really I can't. The tip goes to the server who often desperately needs it. The fees go to the owner who probably doesn't.

[ 14. January 2014, 16:05: Message edited by: Gwai ]

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Originally posted by Gwai:

quote:
I think that's exactly it. We assume everything costs a bit more than it says. You're right though that that's bizarre on the face of it. When I was buying groceries for Community, and needed to count my dollars exactly, I kept a running total in my head of all the prices plus ten percent-ish.
Yes my wife and daughter have just discovered this the hard way. Charged an extra $120 in Hawaii for a room stay - a charge mentioned nowhere on the booking or in the hotel. Cue international incident and consulates ..... apparently it's legal. You can understand why they are now reluctant to tip for the rest of their stay there.
Not really I can't. The tip goes to the server who often desperately needs it. The fees go to the owner who probably doesn't.

One rip off spoils the whole tourist experience - but the rip off is symbolic of a bigger attitude that they experienced .... reluctant to tip but for the very reason you mention they still do.

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

And I do sympathize with their frustration--particularly since they are resisting taking it out on an innocent party. That sort of huge but invisible fee would definitely piss me off too.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

Once, my parents booked a group trip to Brazil (after this two-week trip they were going to visit me). When they arrived at the Brazilian airport, they got into the coach that would take them on their trip. The travel organizers said: "We won't leave until everyone has paid € 50 for [some fee I don't remember]." Very off-putting!

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
And I do sympathize with their frustration--particularly since they are resisting taking it out on an innocent party. That sort of huge but invisible fee would definitely piss me off too.

Especially as in the UK its illegal and that's what you're used to .... getting accustomed to quaint local customs of extra charges takes a bit of time. Mrs Mark is I think breathing a sigh of relief that I remain in the UK - when overcharged in the UK I've called the Police and Trading Standards on the spot. It's called theft and/or fraud.

Posted by comet (# 10353) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I understand you points about the tipping culture encouraging good service, but to my mind something has gone wrong when tipping an extra 15-20% of the bill becomes the expected amount regardless of service quality.

I agree with you. and despite being a server myself, if I get shitty service I don't tip. I'm probably worse than a lot of others that way.

I get all judgy. because I know what's really going on.

When I go out, it is so someone else will do the work. I expect a pleasant experience. I'm paying for a pleasant experience. If I have to deal with a difficult person or constantly ask for my water to be refilled or wait forever for food or whatever, I'm not tipping.

Now, if the food takes forever (or is poor quality), but the server comes over to me an apologizes, checks on me, makes it obvious that they care about my experience, I'll definitely still tip. But they need to make the effort. I'm not tipping based on pity, nor do I expect anyone else to. serving jobs are not a welfare program. people need to work for their money.

plus, depending on the market and the location, don't be fooled that your server is somehow barely making ends meet. in a perfect situation (maybe, a large, live-music bar in an urban area, perhaps) it would be unsurprising to me to find out that the bartenders, at least, are bringing in six figures, annually. (US$, obviously)

that's the exception, of course. but a good server, in the right market, doesn't need your charity. tip based on service. not pity.

just remember, that the tip is their income. so if the service is adequate, tip. if it's great, tip well. but if it sucks, you leave a HUGE message to the server by not tipping.

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Surely it would be better for all concerned if that expected amount was part of the "sticker price" of the meal and paid to the server through their normal wages, with any extra tip for better-than-expected service entirely at the customer's discretion (which is pretty much the situation here in the UK)?

It probably would be better, on one level.

it's a two-edged sword. once I've worked in the service industry, I've gotten very used to being directly rewarded for my good work. it motivates me.

if I'm getting an hourly wage, I'll get paid regardless of the quality of my work.

Now, pride will keep me from being a shit, obviously. and the need to keep the job! but If I'm making hourly and a given customer asks for some extra something that will require a lot of extra work from me? probably not going to happen. I'm already busy, already tired, and I'm walking home with the same dollar amount whether I specially prepare your sandwich or not. forget it.

and so that's the other thing to consider - those of us who are good at what we do - enough to consider ourselves "career" servers - if our income changes to being even $15/hour or something, we'll hit the road.

doing some quick mental math - on a poor shift (as a bartender, which makes a bit more than wait staff generally speaking) I'd easily make an additional $10/hour over my wages in tips. on, say, an average summer night shift? quite possibly $30/hour above tips.

my best tip night ever? I made $200 per hour above wages in tips. That's after splitting it with the other bartender and tipping out my security staff and barbacks.

And I was not in the big markets by a long shot.

I earned it - worked like a frenzied beast and managed to make every one of my multiple-hundred customers feel loved and special. it's a well-polished skill.

no way in hell a manager is going to match that in wages. and if they did, who's going to pay the per-drink amount the business would have to charge? if people are voluntarily putting that money out there, based on their need to show off or their generosity or just because they are having a blast and they want to share the love, they do it. if it is demanded in the price of a drink, ain't going to happen.

not when you can get that same beer at home for, what, 5% of the bar price?

perhaps the church collection is another way to think about it. when the basket comes around, if you're having a good day and you got your bonus this month, etc, you toss in a large bill and get to feel like a rockstar for a moment. if you were charged at the door the amount it costs to keep the lights on, broken down based on average attendence, you'd maybe give the minimum, but not throw in that extra large.

Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on :

Thanks, Comet, that's really helpful.

I'm still a bit confused about how a culture decides which people to tip though, as there appears to be considerable variance.

As for added extras on bills, I get sick just thinking about it as I like to know exactly what is expected of me before I embark on something.

And as Comet highlighted above, I actually really enjoy rewarding great service, that attention to detail is something I really value so I also wonder whether how/ if people tip is somehow linked to what we value?

Posted by M. (# 3291) on :

I think I would tip more if waiters didn't keep filling my glass and asking whether everything was OK.

M.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
I'm still a bit confused about how a culture decides which people to tip though, as there appears to be considerable variance.

At the very least there's some correlation with a perceived NEED to tip. In Australia, tips are less common and at a lower rate because we fundamentally see tips as a bonus reward, not something that's actually needed by the person receiving the tip. The Australian response to the situation in the USA is at least in part 'why the hell aren't you paying these people a proper wage in the first place?'

Other Australians I met while in the USA articulated this, so I know it wasn't just me having this reaction. We come from a country with an extremely strong and long tradition of union activism to ensure minimum standards for employees and we struggle to comprehend how it can be legal to pay someone a wage on which it's clearly impossible to survive, on the expectation that they'll get enough money from another source (customers) to make it.

In Montreal it was explained to me that the tax system actually operated on an assumption about the tips my bartender would receive, rather than going through all the fuss and bother of establishing how much he in fact received - and so if I didn't tip him, he would get taxed on money he didn't actually get. I found this freakishly bizarre.

What I found even MORE bizarre though, was the day tour I went on. The bus driver/guide asking for a tip, I could handle. What I couldn't handle was that the material printed by his employer - brochures and a sign on the bus - encouraged us to tip the driver. To me it was a jaw-droppingly open admission that they weren't paying their employee enough.

One wonders if employers in North America argue that the low wages can't be rectified, because then their employees would get over-compensated on account of people continuing to tip at the same rate they did when the employees were getting appalingly low wages.

[ 15. January 2014, 07:17: Message edited by: orfeo ]

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Originally posted by Gwai:

quote:
I think that's exactly it. We assume everything costs a bit more than it says. You're right though that that's bizarre on the face of it. When I was buying groceries for Community, and needed to count my dollars exactly, I kept a running total in my head of all the prices plus ten percent-ish.
Yes my wife and daughter have just discovered this the hard way. Charged an extra $120 in Hawaii for a room stay - a charge mentioned nowhere on the booking or in the hotel. Cue international incident and consulates ..... apparently it's legal. You can understand why they are now reluctant to tip for the rest of their stay there.
Not really I can't. The tip goes to the server who often desperately needs it. The fees go to the owner who probably doesn't.

Often that extra fee goes to the city or state. It is spent to improve tourist facilities or build convention center. Neither the Hotel or Server had any say in the matter. Another place for magic fees is at the airport. A lot of airports add an extra landing fee to pay for their grand new building projects.

[ 15. January 2014, 07:49: Message edited by: Palimpsest ]

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
In Montreal it was explained to me that the tax system actually operated on an assumption about the tips my bartender would receive, rather than going through all the fuss and bother of establishing how much he in fact received.

I have heard anecdotally that the same is/was true for London taxi drivers. Does anyone know if that is, in fact, the case?

Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on :

I completely agree with you orfeo and just wish that tips were on top of a living wage and I agree that the issue is a big picture debate. Here in Kenya many people are working within the tourism sector for a tiny proportion of the bill for a meal....
When I was teaching full-time I used to be given gifts at Christmas and sometimes at the end of the year from grateful parents. I was on a reasonable salary so the gifts were unnecessary but simply an expression of appreciation which is what I want to do when I tip.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I have heard anecdotally that the same is/was true for London taxi drivers. Does anyone know if that is, in fact, the case?

Possibly, but if so, there's a problem. Quite a large proportion of taxi journeys are by people travelling on behalf of their employers, who get reimbursed their travelling expenses. That won't include reimbursing a tip. So obviously the driver won't get one.

Incidentally, I think most taxi drivers are self employed.

[ 15. January 2014, 08:06: Message edited by: Enoch ]

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :

Probably the worlds highest percentage tip (unless you know otherwise) is to London taxi drivers who "won't go south of the river". The words "double the fare " help, making this in effect a 100% tip.

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

Who on earth would want to go south of the river?

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :

I rarely tip in British restaurants. The only exceptions are when we go to a "fine dining" place as opposed to a place where there are numbers screwed onto the tables (Harversters being the exception of course).

Taxi drivers I'll usually let keep the change. In fact the only tip I leave regularly is the 50p when I have my hair cut. A number two is £4.50, and they usually tidy up my eyebrows and ear-hair, so I give them a fiver.

On the continent or in the US, then I do tip as it is expected, but as a Brit of course I'm tight-fisted about it and never scale the heights of 20%. If the bill is $92, I'll leave a hundred and that's that.

I think the rest of the world understands that you shouldn't really expect to receive an extravagent largesse from your betters. I mean one doesn't tip the downstairs staff, so why on Earth should one tip colonials?

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
In Montreal it was explained to me that the tax system actually operated on an assumption about the tips my bartender would receive, rather than going through all the fuss and bother of establishing how much he in fact received.
I have heard anecdotally that the same is/was true for London taxi drivers. Does anyone know if that is, in fact, the case?

Revenue Canada (I think tht they've changed the name more recently) staff establish a norm for the sector based on credit card invoices in that city. If the average of tips on the invoices is 15%, they will assume that is what the waiter gets. A selection of restaurants in each place get audited, and the credit card slips for a waiter are totalled, and they compare the tip figure on that against their income tax form. One tax service presents it thus.

One friend who claimed but a very small amount of tips during her graduate student bartender gig (but who made much much much more) found herself faced with a large tax bill when her restaurant was audited (as a result of the restaurant owner's divorce case). She told the table that it took two months of tips to pay the $12,000 assessment.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Who on earth would want to go south of the river?

People who live in South London. Just a thought.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I rarely tip in British restaurants. The only exceptions are when we go to a "fine dining" place as opposed to a place where there are numbers screwed onto the tables (Harversters being the exception of course).

Taxi drivers I'll usually let keep the change. In fact the only tip I leave regularly is the 50p when I have my hair cut. A number two is £4.50, and they usually tidy up my eyebrows and ear-hair, so I give them a fiver.

On the continent or in the US, then I do tip as it is expected, but as a Brit of course I'm tight-fisted about it and never scale the heights of 20%. If the bill is $92, I'll leave a hundred and that's that.

I think the rest of the world understands that you shouldn't really expect to receive an extravagent largesse from your betters. I mean one doesn't tip the downstairs staff, so why on Earth should one tip colonials?

Because making sure a server doesn't starve = being a decent human being.

Posted by Huts (# 13017) on :

I tip because society dictates that I do!

The kids in the youth group I used to run never tip. Many of them had low paying jobs and couldn't understand why they should have to tip.

One of them worked in the Co-op supermarket for just above minimum wage (the co-op to prove they were ethical paid a couple of pence above the minimum wags).

He was on the tills and a man came and paid for his shopping but left his wallet behind. The lad put the wallet into his till as procedure and informed the manager .

A couple of hours later the man came back retracing his steps. He was in a panic as he had just taken out 500 pounds in cash. As the lad was a good lad the man's worst fears were not realised and there was still £500 worth of cash in the wallet. As you can understand the man was happy and so offered the lad a £10 tip. The manager of the supermarket however told the customer it was against store policy to allow tips and so the lad never received the tip.

What the youth group couldn't understand was why when they were working a minimum wage job dealing with customers in a shop were not allowed to receive tips but when served by someone working a minimum wage job (same minimum wage)in a restaurant they were expected to tip.

I could never really give them a good answer.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

Its just habit. We tip taxi drivers, we don't tip bus drivers who make a lot less money. We tip in restaurants, we don't tip in pubs. But we can offer to buy the barmaid a drink, and she doesn;t actually have to use the money to pay for a real drink - in some pubs. Other pubs ban that.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

And for what its worth, the historical reason we don't tip in pubs is because tipping is a sign of social distance. The tip goes from the superior to the inferior. So giving a tip implies that you are the master and the other person your servant, which creates social distance. Restaurants are constructed in this way, the waiters take the role of servants for the day, the customers the role of masters. (One erason why British people have often been reluctant to work in restaurants because they see it, perhaps unconsciously, as demeaning - restaurants didn;t come to Britain till the late 19th century and when they did they were -as they are now - almost entirely ethnically non-British - at first mostly German and Swiss, then French, then Italian, with Spanish coming in after the war follwed by Indian, Chinese, Turkish, Thai...)

But pubs work on a premise of social equality. Which might be just as false as the social inequality of restaurants, but its how they work. The pub landlord or manager is cast as the host who is inviting guests into their own home. Staff are cast as friends rather than servants. (At least in traditional local pubs they are, the lines are drawn differently in big chain pubs where the staff wear uniforms - one reason a lot of pub customers don't like staff to wear uniforms - even if they don't realise that's the reason). Tipping creates social distance and breaks the spell. So it is not usually done. (As usual Ket Fox gets it right)

Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on :

Thanks, ken, that's really interesting too.

So where would tipping taxi drivers, hairdressers or refuse collectors etc sit under that analysis, I wonder?

Also does that imply that giving tips means one comes across as thinking more highly of oneself than one ought?!

Honestly, I stand by what I said at the beginning, this is a social minefield.....

Posted by Amorya (# 2652) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I have heard anecdotally that the same is/was true for London taxi drivers. Does anyone know if that is, in fact, the case?
Possibly, but if so, there's a problem. Quite a large proportion of taxi journeys are by people travelling on behalf of their employers, who get reimbursed their travelling expenses. That won't include reimbursing a tip.

Won't it? I've travelled on business, and it's reasonably common to say "Give me a receipt for £8" when presented with a £7 fare. Driver gets a tip, work gets the receipt, you get reimbursed £8.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

I discovered, some time ago, that at our favourite Balti restaurant, any tip you ive at the table goes to the boss - the dad of some and the uncle of some other of the waiters.

Waiters escort you upstairs to the door as you leave - that is the time to tip them, where the boss cannot see.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:
And for what its worth, the historical reason we don't tip in pubs is because tipping is a sign of social distance. The tip goes from the superior to the inferior.

That's how I've always understood it. So it is puzzling that tipping seems to be much more the custom in the USA which I thought spurned social hierarchies and treated all people equally.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:
Originally posted by ken:
And for what its worth, the historical reason we don't tip in pubs is because tipping is a sign of social distance. The tip goes from the superior to the inferior.
That's how I've always understood it. So it is puzzling that tipping seems to be much more the custom in the USA which I thought spurned social hierarchies and treated all people equally.

I've said it often here, but when I worked for an American company, the Americans were on average more hierarchical and deferential at work than the Brits, Irish, and Australians. Maybe things are different in real life, but in the office they seemed to be more formal and take rank and position more seriously than we did.

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:
Originally posted by ken:
And for what its worth, the historical reason we don't tip in pubs is because tipping is a sign of social distance. The tip goes from the superior to the inferior.
That's how I've always understood it. So it is puzzling that tipping seems to be much more the custom in the USA which I thought spurned social hierarchies and treated all people equally.

Sadly I think in many parts of the US, hierarchy is exactly why Americans get off on tipping. People love to decide whether their server deserves a tip. Makes them feel powerful and all.
There are exceptions though. At many of the places I can think of where I have received particularly exceptional service--the kind you remember years later--the servers weren't actually particularly deferential. Exceedingly polite of course, but they knew their worth. Actually the man who stands on a pedestal in my head as the ideal waiter (partially for his serious ninja skills and partially for his abilities to anticipate us) always seemed particularly confident. I suspect the guy knew he was damn good, and enjoyed his job. Though of course he didn't radiate arrogance--that would not have been a trait of an ideal server!

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:

So where would tipping taxi drivers, hairdressers or refuse collectors etc sit under that analysis, I wonder?

Do people tip hairdressers? I never thought about that. When I went to barbers (a different breed to hairdressers I think) I never tipped. Or noticed anyone tipping. Maybe I'll ask one if he gets tips.

As for taxi drivers - well, whoever said it was logical?

Here in London black cab drivers are often quite well paid (the details depend on luck, hours worked, and above all whether or not you own your own cab). Nice houses, golf club memberships, multiple foreign holidays a year. I wouldn't presume to guess how much they earn but I know some who seem to live a lifestyle that I'd associate with people getting 50-80,000 a year. On the other hand I know a cabbie who is bankrupt. There seems to be a huge variance.

But minicab drivers seem a lot worse off. Some websites say 100-250 pounds a night which seems plausible. The larger amounts would represent a lot of work. And you have to find fuel, insurance, and the car rental out of that - so its nowhere near as good as it seems. I think the Addison-Lee clones might do better than most.

But everyone tips cabbies. And black cabs tend to get bigger tips as they charge more. So this is an example of the better-paid getting tipped more. Weird.

Posted by Caissa (# 16710) on :

I tip my barber and cab drivers.

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:
Originally posted by ken:
And for what its worth, the historical reason we don't tip in pubs is because tipping is a sign of social distance. The tip goes from the superior to the inferior.
That's how I've always understood it. So it is puzzling that tipping seems to be much more the custom in the USA which I thought spurned social hierarchies and treated all people equally.
Sadly I think in many parts of the US, hierarchy is exactly why Americans get off on tipping. People love to decide whether their server deserves a tip. Makes them feel powerful and all.

See for me, it is nothing more than a personal thank you for someone who did a personal service for me. Nothing about power, nothing about deciding whether someone deserves to be paid. You picked me up at my house, you dropped me off where I wanted to go, we had a nice conversation on the way, here is an extra thank-you. You do a nice job of cutting my hair, you always accommodate me when I have to reschedule, you give me a discount for scheduling an appointment once a month, so thank you- that discount is going directly into your pocket. I think you will find that the best tippers are people who have worked in the service industry and who appreciate that it can be hard working with the public. Trust me, if you treat people decently at their jobs (and in this country that means you throw them a decent tip,) it comes back to you in the professional relationship you develop with that person.

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

quote:
Originally posted by comet:
Single women, especially if on the lower income side of things, are amazing tippers.

Then why do I so often get sub-standard service when I go to a new place by myself?

quote:
pooling tips kills that happy loop. it also takes away my motivation to bend over backward to give you an amazing experience, and suddenly serving becomes the dead-end, pointless job it looks like to the outside world. why would I give 100% for shit money? because the work is HARD and not terribly rewording.

Would I bust ass and do great work with no tips but a decent wage? probably. but knowing that seeking out that one perfect extra prawn or running to the store to get the blood orange for your customer's special twist will translate in being able to put gas in your car is a very motivating factor.

quote:
When I go out, it is so someone else will do the work. I expect a pleasant experience. I'm paying for a pleasant experience. If I have to deal with a difficult person or constantly ask for my water to be refilled or wait forever for food or whatever, I'm not tipping.

I don't think of the server as part of the experience. I don't ask servers to do lots of special things for me. I just want to order, be served, be checked on once to make sure everything is okay, and beyond that I want to be left alone with my book or my friend. The server doesn't have to be cheerful, just efficient. And I would very much prefer it if they would refrain from checking on the table again and again -- more than once I've had a meal ruined because the server repeatedly interrupted the conversation.

And I would prefer that servers just got paid a decent wage rather than have to calculate what the service was worth every single time I go out.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
See for me, it is nothing more than a personal thank you for someone who did a personal service for me. Nothing about power, nothing about deciding whether someone deserves to be paid. You picked me up at my house, you dropped me off where I wanted to go, we had a nice conversation on the way, here is an extra thank-you. You do a nice job of cutting my hair, ...

Now that's what I really don't get. That's what the bill is for. I order a meal. The meal has a price on it. That's what I'm paying for. Likewise, the taximeter produces a price for the journey etc. etc. Having the food brought to the table, being delivered to my destination, is all part of what I'm paying for in the bill, not an extra for it not being a cafeteria or for being dumped at the end of the road.

I give tips where one's supposed to, but as I said earlier, I still begrudge it. I agree with the Australians on this one.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
I don't think of the server as part of the experience. I don't ask servers to do lots of special things for me. I just want to order, be served, be checked on once to make sure everything is okay, and beyond that I want to be left alone with my book or my friend. The server doesn't have to be cheerful, just efficient.

Hear, Hear! [Overused]

Posted by Ad Orientem (# 17574) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
See for me, it is nothing more than a personal thank you for someone who did a personal service for me. Nothing about power, nothing about deciding whether someone deserves to be paid. You picked me up at my house, you dropped me off where I wanted to go, we had a nice conversation on the way, here is an extra thank-you. You do a nice job of cutting my hair, ...
Now that's what I really don't get. That's what the bill is for. I order a meal. The meal has a price on it. That's what I'm paying for. Likewise, the taximeter produces a price for the journey etc. etc. Having the food brought to the table, being delivered to my destination, is all part of what I'm paying for in the bill, not an extra for it not being a cafeteria or for being dumped at the end of the road.

I give tips where one's supposed to, but as I said earlier, I still begrudge it. I agree with the Australians on this one.

Yes!

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
I don't think of the server as part of the experience. I don't ask servers to do lots of special things for me. I just want to order, be served, be checked on once to make sure everything is okay, and beyond that I want to be left alone with my book or my friend.

Maybe that is why you are getting sub-standard service. There is a line, and a good server knows where it is, but if you allow a bit of a relationship to develop with your server, the server will frequently enhance your experience. Sure, sometimes it still doesn't get you great service, but more often than not it's worth the effort. Ever have a customer joke with you or try to make you smile while you are at work? It can make your day. There is nothing better than being a favorite customer at a bar or restaurant, and like it or not, being open with the servers and tipping well is how you become a favorite customer.

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Now that's what I really don't get. That's what the bill is for. I order a meal. The meal has a price on it. That's what I'm paying for. Likewise, the taximeter produces a price for the journey etc. etc. Having the food brought to the table, being delivered to my destination, is all part of what I'm paying for in the bill, not an extra for it not being a cafeteria or for being dumped at the end of the road.

If you only think of the waiter as bringing you your food and the driver as getting you from point a to point b, sure. But they can be so much more. I've had cab drivers, bar tenders, and waiters who have made my night by being more than a cog in the process of getting me around, getting me a drink, and getting me fed. It starts with being friendly, and it ends with a good tip to let them know that they did make my night.

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

Og - I agree with you that developing a good rapport with your server is a great start and to be maintained. But I otherwise agree 100% with RuthW.

I've had excellent service in countries where no tipping is the norm - people seem to want to help. You could equally argue that tipping commoditizes an interpersonal relationship, making it analogous to a bribe.

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

I have got the impression over the years, from sof + tv, that patronage is common and expected in the states.

When it happens here it tends to be covert and denied - it is not supposed to happen.

I suspect if you were proven to have done
this in the UK it would be illegal.

Tipping to get service feels not so different from a bribe.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Preference is given here in private and some state schools to children of former students. Not at universities though.

Tipping is usual here at restaurants, but not to the extent of the US. Common practice would be to round up to the nearest $5 or $10 - or if that's niggardly, then the next above. Very rare at a coffee shop, but at one I visit a fair bit in the city my coffee costs $3.80 and I leave the extra 20c. Cab drivers may get a little bit by a rounding up. Never heard of it at men's barbers, and madame says it's not normally done at women's hairdressers at least around here. Maybe a few cents at a bar or pub. If anyone offered to buy a bar attendant (not just barmaids here) a drink, there may well be a quick punch to the nose/slap to the cheek, depending on gender, and certainly an escort to the door by a security officer.

It's the pattern we're used to and from that flows the notoriety to which Comet referred. The proper cost of labour is built into the price charged and a decent wage is paid. Similarly, you don't get a shock at the supermarket checkout. Any indirect tax (our GST is the same as other's VAT) must by law be built into the price displayed, whether at a shop, supermarket, car sales yard, or restaurant.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:

I suspect if you were proven to have done
this in the UK it would be illegal.

Depends on the circumstances.

Many Cambridge and Oxford Colleges still operate this covertly - sometimes under the cover of scholarships open only to candidates from particular schools or backgrounds (children of the clergy for example). My old college certainly did/does and if you've got cash for the endowment fund, then according to anecdotal rumour you can open a few doors here and there - joining a select club of big cash donors aint the half of it.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
In Montreal it was explained to me that the tax system actually operated on an assumption about the tips my bartender would receive, rather than going through all the fuss and bother of establishing how much he in fact received.
I have heard anecdotally that the same is/was true for London taxi drivers. Does anyone know if that is, in fact, the case?

Nope - declaration is necessary but HMRC have a base line below whoich they wont allow a cab driver to go on tips (true of other jobs too).

FWIW it used to be the case that taxi drivers had 3 sets of accounts all showing different profits. HMRC got the ones showing the least, the mortgage company (then me) the ones showing the most unless they forget themselves and gave you all three.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
Probably the worlds highest percentage tip (unless you know otherwise) is to London taxi drivers who "won't go south of the river". The words "double the fare " help, making this in effect a 100% tip.

Almost take their cab number and report them if this happens. it's illegal under their licence to refuse this. Don't give them the pleasure of getting something for nothing.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:

quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Originally posted by Gwai:

quote:
I think that's exactly it. We assume everything costs a bit more than it says. You're right though that that's bizarre on the face of it. When I was buying groceries for Community, and needed to count my dollars exactly, I kept a running total in my head of all the prices plus ten percent-ish.
Yes my wife and daughter have just discovered this the hard way. Charged an extra $120 in Hawaii for a room stay - a charge mentioned nowhere on the booking or in the hotel. Cue international incident and consulates ..... apparently it's legal. You can understand why they are now reluctant to tip for the rest of their stay there.
Not really I can't. The tip goes to the server who often desperately needs it. The fees go to the owner who probably doesn't.
Often that extra fee goes to the city or state. It is spent to improve tourist facilities or build convention center. Neither the Hotel or Server had any say in the matter. Another place for magic fees is at the airport. A lot of airports add an extra landing fee to pay for their grand new building projects.

Ok but if you charge it and don't reveal it up front it looks rather like extortion, sours the holiday and may stop someone tipping a waiter who really needs it. In the UK at least it's not legal under (at least) unfair contracts regulations.

Posted by comet (# 10353) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:

Tipping to get service feels not so different from a bribe.

I don't disagree with you.

feels that way a bit to me, too. and when I was bartending, even if a pack of Japanese climbers showed up (see: will give exact change, never ever tip) I'd still give good service. it's a cultural difference, not their fault and I don't expect them to understand.

But if I was going to walk home with nothing in my pocket after a whole shift, and it was all just a wage? if the wage was excellent, it might be okay. but otherwise, very unlikely I'd continue to do the work. Bartending is FUN - but it's also the hardest I've ever worked and definitely the most subject to abuse and harassment. if I got, say, $50/hour to do the work it might be worth it. but to be honest? it might not.

We're talking the cumulative effect of the work, here. not everybody is going to grab your ass or treat you like scum on their shoes. not everyone is going to drop a $20 on a $50 tab. but those two things make a huge step towards canceling each other out. and IME, both those things are likely at least once per shift.

that's my bribe. I'll put up with a LOT of bullshit if it pays off. if it stops paying off, I'm out of there. and everyone is back to having servers with no skills who will move on in a month or two, and managers who pull their hair out.

Posted by comet (# 10353) on :

do we not have any servers from the non-tipping world to chime in on the Ship? I'd really love their take on this.

I have an Australian friend who lived here for 15 years, and got himself through the winters as a career 'tender. He told me he'd never bartend back home because it's not worth it. but that's one guy and anecdotal and he's not here to expand on it.

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

I worked briefly as a waitress, but i wasn't having to support myself on the wage.

My issue with your description, is that I expect my employer to call the police if I am assaulted at work a fifty dollar tip would not make it OK. And precisely my issue with making serving staff dependent on tipping - is that they then feel they have to put up with that.

In the UK - I think you could actually sue your employer if they made no attempt to deal with that behaviour.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Revenue Canada (I think tht they've changed the name more recently) staff establish a norm for the sector based on credit card invoices in that city. If the average of tips on the invoices is 15%, they will assume that is what the waiter gets.

Using an average is of course fundamentally unfair to about* 50% of all the waiters.

*Assuming they're using a mean. If they're using a median it's fundamentally unfair to EXACTLY 50% of all the waiters.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:

If anyone offered to buy a bar attendant (not just barmaids here) a drink, there may well be a quick punch to the nose/slap to the cheek, depending on gender, and certainly an escort to the door by a security officer.

I'm thinking of ordinary local pubs, not the sort of place that employs, or could afford, "security officers".

Big chain pubs and busy pubs in town and places that are really more like nightclubs than pubs often do have bouncers. From my point of view thats a good reason to avoid those places. (Same goes for uniformed staff)

But it really is quite normal to offer to buy bar staff a drink in Britain. And not that rare to be bought one by them. As I said the relationship is constructed as one of social equality, with a certain amount of reciprocity. But it does depend on the kind of pub.

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Often that extra fee goes to the city or state. It is spent to improve tourist facilities or build convention center. Neither the Hotel or Server had any say in the matter. Another place for magic fees is at the airport. A lot of airports add an extra landing fee to pay for their grand new building projects.
Ok but if you charge it and don't reveal it up front it looks rather like extortion, sours the holiday and may stop someone tipping a waiter who really needs it. In the UK at least it's not legal under (at least) unfair contracts regulations.

The assumption in the United States is that taxes apply and are not usually included in advertised prices. You can get the tax amounts by asking. .
The same is true for air fares, the advertised price doesn't include airport fees. The city, county and state don't care much if you're punishing an innocent server.

At least in theory the money is used to build convention centers, athletic stadiums for professional sport teams and on tourism advertising. These surcharges and increases on hotel and restaurants are always proposed with the jovial claim that they won't affect the locals who don't benefit much. The assumption is that we never eat out in restaurants because we have homes.

This article on the
history of US tipping is informative. I didn't realize that Washington state has eliminated the separate lower minimal wage for tipped employees but most states haven't done this.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:
Originally posted by ken:
And for what its worth, the historical reason we don't tip in pubs is because tipping is a sign of social distance. The tip goes from the superior to the inferior.
That's how I've always understood it. So it is puzzling that tipping seems to be much more the custom in the USA which I thought spurned social hierarchies and treated all people equally.
Sadly I think in many parts of the US, hierarchy is exactly why Americans get off on tipping. People love to decide whether their server deserves a tip. Makes them feel powerful and all.

When I first arrived on my North American trip, and was out at a restaurant with my California friends, the whole air of the waiter introducing themselves and sending signals that "I'll be your servant this evening" made me squirm.

Later on in my trip I basically undercut that atmosphere at every opportunity. When a waiter asked me how I was, I would immediately ask them how they were in my reply. It wasn't hard to see that some of them were surprised and delighted that I was treating them as an equal.

I suspect many Australian waiters, if you tried to send the signals that there was a US-style heirarchy, would react very negatively and find ways to cut you down to size.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
You could equally argue that tipping commoditizes an interpersonal relationship, making it analogous to a bribe.

Yup.

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
I don't think of the server as part of the experience. I don't ask servers to do lots of special things for me. I just want to order, be served, be checked on once to make sure everything is okay, and beyond that I want to be left alone with my book or my friend.
Maybe that is why you are getting sub-standard service. There is a line, and a good server knows where it is, but if you allow a bit of a relationship to develop with your server, the server will frequently enhance your experience. Sure, sometimes it still doesn't get you great service, but more often than not it's worth the effort. Ever have a customer joke with you or try to make you smile while you are at work? It can make your day. There is nothing better than being a favorite customer at a bar or restaurant, and like it or not, being open with the servers and tipping well is how you become a favorite customer.

I know all about being a favorite customer. I am one in several places and it's great. And at those places I always leave big tips.

But re-read the rest of my post -- when I am alone in a new place, I frequently get shitty service from the get-go, when they seat me at a table they know is crap though other tables are available. I'm not moved to be chatty with someone who has already demonstrated that they don't think highly of my patronage. If I like the food in such a place, I tip 20% and go back a few times (being careful to pick the same day of the week and time) and see if the service improves.

Also, I don't know why I should be entertaining the server to get decent service. I am polite; that ought to be enough.

quote:
If you only think of the waiter as bringing you your food and the driver as getting you from point a to point b, sure. But they can be so much more. I've had cab drivers, bar tenders, and waiters who have made my night by being more than a cog in the process of getting me around, getting me a drink, and getting me fed. It starts with being friendly, and it ends with a good tip to let them know that they did make my night.

Sure, they can be. But I don't usually want this level of service. If I did, I'd be happy to pay extra for it. But I would love it if I could regularly expect just ordinary, decent service and have the cost of it included in the price of the meal or whatever.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:

1. The assumption in the United States is that taxes apply and are not usually included in advertised prices. You can get the tax amounts by asking.

2.The same is true for air fares, the advertised price doesn't include airport fees. The city, county and state don't care much if you're punishing an innocent server.

3. At least in theory the money is used to build convention centers, athletic stadiums for professional sport teams and on tourism advertising.

1. Assumption very quickly becomes presumption. Look at it this way, if people aren't honest with one thing it tends to suggest that they will be less than honest with others. I'm on permanent rip off alert.

2. It does (and must by law) in the UK. Why is it so hard then?

3. Isn't theory great? I bet the mafia love that theory as they are banking their bungs from the city!

[code fix. Tips welcome]

[ 16. January 2014, 08:58: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Ken, I was talking of a local pub, whether suburban or in a country town/township. Remember that there is no equivalent here to an English local.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
At least in theory the money is used to build convention centers, athletic stadiums for professional sport teams and on tourism advertising. These surcharges and increases on hotel and restaurants are always proposed with the jovial claim that they won't affect the locals who don't benefit much. The assumption is that we never eat out in restaurants because we have homes.

But why should anyone be charged extra now, to pay for something that hasn't been built yet, and they may never live to enjoy?

This is another rant of mine. Politicians think it's a great idea because it seems to cost them nothing, but it's dishonest. When the second bridge over the Severn was going to be built, the existing bridge was transferred to the company that won the franchise. It was taken for granted that the funding of the new bridge would be in part funded by immediately putting up the tolls on the existing one. The same is argued about funding of other expensive capital improvements.

Why should we be charged now to pay for something we are not getting? Why can't things be funded the proper way; borrow the price and use the receipts once it's open to pay the interest etc on the loan.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:

If anyone offered to buy a bar attendant (not just barmaids here) a drink, there may well be a quick punch to the nose/slap to the cheek, depending on gender, and certainly an escort to the door by a security officer.

I'm thinking of ordinary local pubs, not the sort of place that employs, or could afford, "security officers".

Big chain pubs and busy pubs in town and places that are really more like nightclubs than pubs often do have bouncers. From my point of view thats a good reason to avoid those places. (Same goes for uniformed staff)

You are me AICMFP.

I have the following list which will immediately tell me not to visit a given pub:

1. Bouncers
2. A queue to get in
3. Music I can hear from the other side of the street

I immediately know that it'll be too loud inside, you won't be able to sit down, and the chance of getting a decent pint is considerably less than the chance of getting some tanked up twat picking a fight with you.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:
Originally posted by ken:

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:

If anyone offered to buy a bar attendant (not just barmaids here) a drink, there may well be a quick punch to the nose/slap to the cheek, depending on gender, and certainly an escort to the door by a security officer.

I'm thinking of ordinary local pubs, not the sort of place that employs, or could afford, "security officers".

Big chain pubs and busy pubs in town and places that are really more like nightclubs than pubs often do have bouncers. From my point of view thats a good reason to avoid those places. (Same goes for uniformed staff)

You are me AICMFP.

I have the following list which will immediately tell me not to visit a given pub:

1. Bouncers
2. A queue to get in
3. Music I can hear from the other side of the street

I immediately know that it'll be too loud inside, you won't be able to sit down, and the chance of getting a decent pint is considerably less than the chance of getting some tanked up twat picking a fight with you.

Yep to that I'd add - don't go in if you can see twinkling lights from a fruit machine ... or the words "Sports Bar" anywhere ... or "tourist menu"

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
I suspect if you were proven to have done this in the UK it would be illegal.

I doubt it, but I haven't really looked into it. There are certainly UK universities that will offer lower fees to alumni or relatives of alumni/staff in order to encourage them to apply to that university rather than a competitor. Whether they would make offers with lower qualification requirements to such people is less certain, as that would have a negative impact on their league table position.

Posted by jbohn (# 8753) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I have the following list which will immediately tell me not to visit a given pub:

1. Bouncers
2. A queue to get in
3. Music I can hear from the other side of the street

I immediately know that it'll be too loud inside, you won't be able to sit down, and the chance of getting a decent pint is considerably less than the chance of getting some tanked up twat picking a fight with you.

Here, you'd be hard pressed to find a bar without a bouncer. (Which doesn't bother me a great deal - at my own favorite watering hole, I've become fairly friendly with the bouncers and bartenders.) On the other two, though - spot on.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I doubt it, but I haven't really looked into it. There are certainly UK universities that will offer lower fees to alumni or relatives of alumni/staff in order to encourage them to apply to that university rather than a competitor.

Whether they would make offers with lower qualification requirements to such people is less certain, as that would have a negative impact on their league table position.

Prince Edward got into Cambridge with E's -- not standard admissions criteria. One College has scholarships to people from Blundells School -- they don't have to have the same grades as others.

[code]

[ 16. January 2014, 15:49: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:

[...]

...if you allow a bit of a relationship to develop with your server, the server will frequently enhance your experience. Sure, sometimes it still doesn't get you great service, but more often than not it's worth the effort. Ever have a customer joke with you or try to make you smile while you are at work? It can make your day. There is nothing better than being a favorite customer at a bar or restaurant, and like it or not, being open with the servers and tipping well is how you become a favorite customer.
I know all about being a favorite customer. I am one in several places and it's great.
And at those places I always leave big tips.

And back to cultural differences again. Its great to be a known and respected regular customer. In an English local pub, you don't make that happen by tipping. It's more likely to have the opposite effect.

You have to know what's expected and foreigners, tourists, and assorted walk-ins don't know.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
You could equally argue that tipping commoditizes an interpersonal relationship, making it analogous to a bribe.

You're making a category error. Your waiter is not your friend, and the relationship you have with them is a business relationship, not an "interpersonal" one, any more than your relationship with your garbage collector or the person selling tickets at the movie theatre is an interpersonal one. You just have more face-to-face contact with the waiter, and the culture (in the US at least) is so arranged that it is necessary to tip them.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Prince Edward got into Cambridge with E's -- not standard admissions criteria. One College has scholarships to people from Blundells School -- they don't have to have the same grades as others.

In all honesty, I doubt you'll find a University in the whole country that has a single "standard admissions criteria". Applicants that do really well at interview or that the institution really wants to have on their books for whatever reason will be given a conditional offer based on far lower grades than the rest. In some cases they may even be given an unconditional offer, or in other words "we don't care what grades you actually end up getting, we want you here".

Nothing illegal about any of that. Which I guess answers Doublethink's question.

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

Time to talk about some cultural differences here.

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
When I first arrived on my North American trip, and was out at a restaurant with my California friends, the whole air of the waiter introducing themselves and sending signals that "I'll be your servant this evening" made me squirm.

Your server was being polite and friendly. Your server has no interest in you thinking that they are your servant, and they have no pressure from management to make you think that- in fact, good managers will stick up for you if a customer gets too demanding. The waiter's job is to make sure that you enjoy your meal. Assuming that they are your servant or want you to think that they are your servant might not get you punched in the face, slapped, or cut down to size, because that would be rude, and once again, they are just trying to be polite and friendly. But don't ever assume that they are making themselves your servant, because it just isn't the case.

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Later on in my trip I basically undercut that atmosphere at every opportunity. When a waiter asked me how I was, I would immediately ask them how they were in my reply. It wasn't hard to see that some of them were surprised and delighted that I was treating them as an equal.

I certainly hope you didn't wait until later in your trip start to repaying kindness and politeness with kindness and politeness or to treat your waiter as an equal. Gee, I wonder why they were delighted. Maybe because that was what they were after in the first place.

It seems that there is a lot of hand wringing here about people working in the service industry. Most folks (including most of the people in this conversation, I assume) don't go straight from high school to college to a graduate or professional program and then on to the career of their choice. Most of us have to work jobs along the way. I was a tour guide, I cleaned bathrooms, I shoveled snow and loaded people onto ski lifts, and I was a dorm hall monitor. Those jobs are not a source of embarrassment. You go out and you do them to the best of your ability. You try to be polite to people, and you hope that they have learned from those jobs to be polite back. That's all they are after. It's not about hierarchy, it's about being nice to people and hoping to be treated well in exchange. I'm sorry that you were embarrassed when someone was just trying to be polite, but as you eventually should have seen, that was all that was going on.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
When I first arrived on my North American trip, and was out at a restaurant with my California friends, the whole air of the waiter introducing themselves and sending signals that "I'll be your servant this evening" made me squirm.
Your server was being polite and friendly. Your server has no interest in you thinking that they are your servant, and they have no pressure from management to make you think that- in fact, good managers will stick up for you if a customer gets too demanding.

And yet, the first thing they want to say is "I'll be your waiter this evening."

Why? Do they not think I know that they work at the restaurant? Am I not allowed to talk to any of the other staff at the restaurant?

They are trying to set up a relationship with me. Hello, I'm here to be YOUR waiter.

And they'll frequently do this after someone else has sat me down and given me a menu.

Australian wait-staff will say hi, how are you. They'll ask if you're ready to order. But they won't give you their name or make out they are your special waiter, and therefore the person you're paying the tip to.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
I certainly hope you didn't wait until later in your trip start to repaying kindness and politeness with kindness and politeness or to treat your waiter as an equal. Gee, I wonder why they were delighted. Maybe because that was what they were after in the first place.

Gee, "later" means once I was on my own and not with American friends who knew the drill. American friends who didn't engage in the level of conversation with the wait staff that I did 'later' on my trip.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

PS Yes of course it's about cultural differences. This whole thread is.

And not just in this situation. Americans are clearly more concerned with formal politeness and exchange of formal greetings than we are. Depending on context, we might find it quaintly endearing or fake and superficial. Conversely, Americans can find Aussies (and Kiwis) either bracingly straight-talking or breathtakingly rude.

[ 16. January 2014, 21:45: Message edited by: orfeo ]

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
And yet, the first thing they want to say is "I'll be your waiter this evening."

Why? Do they not think I know that they work at the restaurant? Am I not allowed to talk to any of the other staff at the restaurant?

This is turning into a bad stand-up bit.

It's just the way things are done here. At a nice restaurant, your waiter introduces him or herself by name. It's considered a friendly gesture in our culture. It's not an invitation to think of them as less than you (as you found later in the trip), and it's nothing to squirm about. If anything, to me it seems less hierarchical than wanting a totally anonymous waiter, but that's just because I grew up here; if it weren't the norm, I probably wouldn't think anything of it.

(Cross post with the post script, yes, I think we might be on common ground here.)

[ 16. January 2014, 22:00: Message edited by: Og, King of Bashan ]

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
You could equally argue that tipping commoditizes an interpersonal relationship, making it analogous to a bribe.
You're making a category error. Your waiter is not your friend, and the relationship you have with them is a business relationship, not an "interpersonal" one, any more than your relationship with your garbage collector or the person selling tickets at the movie theatre is an interpersonal one. You just have more face-to-face contact with the waiter, and the culture (in the US at least) is so arranged that it is necessary to tip them.

I have to disagree - if it is a category error at all, it is because we make up the categories on this subject ourselves. It stands to reason that the relationship I have with a server is at a more distant level than it would be with a close friend or family. But it is a relationship, and I hope I put something into it at least - I try to be pleasant and courteous to someone who is in a customer-facing role (and having been there myself I can certainly vouch for the fact that some people are complete sh*ts).

But ultimately I would like a pleasant experience from everyone else, including in a restaurant especially the cooks. It is up to the business to select and train its staff. And proper restaurant staff are trained and should have experience of everything on the menu. They can advise you. I can't see how depersonalizing the transaction is of any benefit to anyone, me or them.

Of course I can see where you are coming from. It is a different way of conceiving the transaction. And in a fast-food restaurant it comes perilously close to a depersonalized transaction anyway. But as orfeo has just said, it's simply flagging up a cultural difference.

Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :

I like it, it reminds me of Grover from Sesame Street!

It's weird when your internet boards intersect. On the Disney holidays board I hang out on, tipping threads get closed as they invariably get heated. It's the equivalent of a Dead Horse.

It's just one of those strange pond differences that make life interesting.

(btw re the Japanese 'no tipping' custom Comet mentioned - one of the guys on the Disney board recently went to Tokyo Disneyland, and found that you do not tip in Japan as it isn't considered polite. That said, my view on these things is largely 'when in Rome' (or indeed Nome...)

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
At least in theory the money is used to build convention centers, athletic stadiums for professional sport teams and on tourism advertising. These surcharges and increases on hotel and restaurants are always proposed with the jovial claim that they won't affect the locals who don't benefit much. The assumption is that we never eat out in restaurants because we have homes.
But why should anyone be charged extra now, to pay for something that hasn't been built yet, and they may never live to enjoy?

This is another rant of mine. Politicians think it's a great idea because it seems to cost them nothing, but it's dishonest. When the second bridge over the Severn was going to be built, the existing bridge was transferred to the company that won the franchise. It was taken for granted that the funding of the new bridge would be in part funded by immediately putting up the tolls on the existing one. The same is argued about funding of other expensive capital improvements.

Why should we be charged now to pay for something we are not getting? Why can't things be funded the proper way; borrow the price and use the receipts once it's open to pay the interest etc on the loan.

In Seattle, it's even more annoying. One of the surcharges on Hotels and Restaurants is to pay for building a new Football stadium. They held a municipal ballot referendum on building the stadium, we citizens voted no by a small margin and our can-do politicians built it anyhow.

Part of the problem is that there's this whole cult of convention center that cities get. There's a promise that building it will bring in a lot more tourist and convention business and like all big project plans the revenue forecasts are far too rosy and the actual income much lower. So the city cynically makes the rosy forecasts and puts a tax on up front. If they got a loan and built it and paid the loan back on the income they'd be in big trouble because the actual income is much too low. If they tax the citizens up front the lies about revenue are just a minor nasty detail in the consequences.

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
When I first arrived on my North American trip, and was out at a restaurant with my California friends, the whole air of the waiter introducing themselves and sending signals that "I'll be your servant this evening" made me squirm.
Your server was being polite and friendly. Your server has no interest in you thinking that they are your servant, and they have no pressure from management to make you think that- in fact, good managers will stick up for you if a customer gets too demanding.
And yet, the first thing they want to say is "I'll be your waiter this evening."

Why? Do they not think I know that they work at the restaurant? Am I not allowed to talk to any of the other staff at the restaurant?

They are trying to set up a relationship with me. Hello, I'm here to be YOUR waiter.

And they'll frequently do this after someone else has sat me down and given me a menu.

Australian wait-staff will say hi, how are you. They'll ask if you're ready to order. But they won't give you their name or make out they are your special waiter, and therefore the person you're paying the tip to.

I'll be your waiter this evening is saying that they are assigned to cover your table. If you talk to other waiters the other waiter will typically forward your request to your waiter, especially if involved the bill.
To me I'll be your waiter seems both pretentious and very 1980's.

New York Jewish waiters used to be famously rude. I think there are still a few left if you find the right deli.

Finally, you may notice the waiter wrote "Thanks" and signed your bill. It's fairly common and not usually restaurant policy. Someone did a study that showed that doing so increased tipping by 4% or something like that and the news of that study spread through the waiters.

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

Tipping conventions on cruise ships bother me quite a lot. Have done these rarely, but a long established cruise company I've travelled with on the few times I've done this switched a few years ago to automatic tipping. From which you have to opt out rather than opt in.

Based on a fixed scale. Service per day rates, rather than percentages. Rates are not exactly trivial either.

Conventions move on this. Seems the expectations now are that you won't opt out, but are expected to give a cash bonus to staff for good service, on top of the automatic levy. Which means if you do opt out, expectation is that you'll exceed the standard rate anyway.

Plus there are rumours that the company are applying stringent rules as to whether staff get a benefit from the automatic levy, possibly based on complaints, possibly the opinions of managers. Staff aren't talking much, for very understandable reasons. Company came under new ownership a few years ago - things were simpler before.

I found all of that weird. IME service on board is very good; these changes felt like mucking about with the normal bases for tipping. I always tip in accordance with local conventions. Seems rude not to. Service has got to be really bad for me to ignore them. So I don't feel the need for these additional "encouragements", which just seem like ways of upping conventions and complicating/distorting the service relationship.

I suppose the argument is that if you can afford a cruise, you can afford to tip generously. Except that the competitive market has made this kind of holiday a lot cheaper than it was a few years ago, particularly if you watch the late offers.

[ 17. January 2014, 06:29: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on :

Tipping for me remains a personal gesture of thanks and separate from any service charge/levy as I want it to go to the person I am trying to thank and not to the company that employs them.

However this can make things very expensive....

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Tipping conventions on cruise ships bother me quite a lot. Have done these rarely, but a long established cruise company I've travelled with on the few times I've done this switched a few years ago to automatic tipping. From which you have to opt out rather than opt in.

In many American restaurants, there is a policy of automatically adding a tip for larger parties. One reason this is done is large parties tip less and, ISTM, take more effort to mind.
Anonymity is cited as one reason members of said parties might skimp. I can see this applying to cruise ships as well.
.……………………

Where tipping is customary, I tip well. Which has led to some awkward situations. I have, in America, been treated to meals by people who do not tip well or at all. My impulse is to cover the difference, however doing so without insulting the other is tricky.

Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:

I suspect if you were proven to have done
this in the UK it would be illegal.
Depends on the circumstances.

Many Cambridge and Oxford Colleges still operate this covertly - sometimes under the cover of scholarships open only to candidates from particular schools or backgrounds (children of the clergy for example). My old college certainly did/does and if you've got cash for the endowment fund, then according to anecdotal rumour you can open a few doors here and there - joining a select club of big cash donors aint the half of it.

You're living in the past. It's been over a decade, perhaps two, since Oxbridge colleges were forced by the government to end tied scholarships and turn the endowments into a general scholarship fund.

I'm sure your anecdotal rumour was probably true for many centuries -- my own college has a whole picture gallery supposedly as the reward for admitting someone's son, but in those days (40 years ago or more) I don't think there was the same pressure on places, not that that makes the process any cleaner, and it was, after all, the way things were done then.

I doubt that today anyone could buy his or her way into an internal BA course -- that is, one entered in the usual way in the UK from Sixth FOrm (or whatever its called now). Even my college, which is hardly among the best scholastically, has 5-10 or more applications from qualified applicants from inside the UK for each place. Now a foreign student, or someone trying to do a graduate degree is different because there is no limit on places, but then as there is no limit on places, there's no need to buy one the way they used to.

John

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