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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Do You Exist?
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Frank Mitchell
planked
# 17946
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Posted
Behavourists say Consciousness is an illusion. Most of these theories neglect the fact that we spend time asleep. And clearly something interesting happens when we wake up. Do you exist part-time?
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Faictz Ce Que Vouldras
Posts: 72 | From: Cheshire, England | Registered: Dec 2013
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Frank Mitchell:
Behavourists say Consciousness is an illusion. Most of these theories neglect the fact that we spend time asleep. And clearly something interesting happens when we wake up. Do you exist part-time?
Repeating myself: give me a reference to a behaviourist who believes this. Behaviourists believe that consciousness cannot be scientifically studied, not that it doesn't exist. There is more to life than science, including consciousness.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Frank Mitchell
Do you exist part-time?
Whom are you asking? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
[ 13. January 2014, 17:37: Message edited by: EtymologicalEvangelical ]
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Frank Mitchell: Do you exist part-time?
Y s.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Frank Mitchell:
And clearly something interesting happens when we wake up.
Er, no. Not unless you count staring blearily at the clock, muttering something unprintable, and getting ready for the morning journey to work.
quote:
Do you exist part-time?
It really depends what you mean by "exist". Please define what you mean by "exist" and let's see if anyone here feels that definition fits them.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
I thought Descartes solved this problem. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
I thought Descartes solved this problem.
Although some people think that he ballsed it up, by starting with 'I think ...' or 'je pense', since this assumes what is to be demonstrated.
Another criticism is that since there are thoughts, one might not assume that there is a thinker. In other words, Descartes should start with 'thinking is occurring'.
But many people have criticized it, including Hume, Nietzsche and Kierkegaard. I think.
[ 13. January 2014, 18:14: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Frank Mitchell:
... And clearly something interesting happens when we wake up. Do you exist part-time?
Mostly what happens to me when I'm asleep is more interesting than what happens when I wake up.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Mood altering substances and late nights were the source of this question in the past. The threat of non-existence, such as physical pain or gasping for breath usually phenomenologically convinces that the answer is yes.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
I thought Descartes solved this problem.
If I only think part-time, then I only exist part-time.
So the simple answer is yes, and some of us more (or less) than others.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
I thought Descartes solved this problem.
Although some people think that he ballsed it up, by starting with 'I think ...' or 'je pense', since this assumes what is to be demonstrated.
Another criticism is that since there are thoughts, one might not assume that there is a thinker. In other words, Descartes should start with 'thinking is occurring'.
But many people have criticized it, including Hume, Nietzsche and Kierkegaard. I think.
OK then. I think that I think, therefore I think that I am. Is that better?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
If I only think part-time, then I only exist part-time.
No, because things exist that don't think at all. By that logic anything that didn't think, like your bed or alarm clock, couldn't exist because they didn't think.
OTOH, it does depend on your definition of existence. Many inanimate objects are perceivable by your five senses, which is what are often used to determine existence. However, there are things that are not perceivable by your senses which still exist.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
I thought Descartes solved this problem.
Although some people think that he ballsed it up, by starting with 'I think ...' or 'je pense', since this assumes what is to be demonstrated.
Another criticism is that since there are thoughts, one might not assume that there is a thinker. In other words, Descartes should start with 'thinking is occurring'.
But many people have criticized it, including Hume, Nietzsche and Kierkegaard. I think.
OK then. I think that I think, therefore I think that I am. Is that better?
It's quite brilliant, and cuts through centuries of turgid waffle. It doesn't show that you exist, but for God's sake, I'm not greedy. Yes, you are; no, I'm not, yes, you are. Hey, who's boss around here? We are!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Film yourself when asleep - I think you'll find you're still there.
Odd question.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
I think Frank M is going with the old "does something exist when it's not perceived" argument.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I can hear the old bishop* calling out in a quavery voice, esse est percipe, to be is to be perceived. Often said to be irrefutable, but useless.
*Berkeley.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Interesting, if very general topic.
Here is a link to some info re Dennett's "Consciousness Explained"
And what the heck are qualia and do they exist.
[Warning. This stuff can do your head in if you are unfamiliar with it.]
"I" may be just as controversial as "think".
Semi-independent agencies in the brain. Some kind of "committee system" with no permanent "overseeing chair"?
Might be something like that.
One of my sons is a Dennett fan and I read the book at his prompting some time ago. Told him it confused me, but I still thought Descartes had provided a more accessible explanation, regardless of the "I" problem.
He groaned, wondered if I'd fully grasped Dennett. Tongue in cheek, I asked, "How am I supposed to answer that given I might not be an "I"; then "which Dennett anyway?" and "who are you?" We had a good laugh and moved on to talk about how his research was going.
Have you read Dennett, Frank? Or has anyone else? I'm not sold on his views but they are nicely provocative. Make us think. Whoever "us" are and "think" is.
[ 13. January 2014, 19:41: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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PDA
Apprentice
# 16531
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Posted
yup and Anthropologists say we are monkeys and Scientologists say we came from space.
I am not an unconscious space monkey!
I just do a really good impression of one.
Posts: 40 | From: Essex | Registered: Jul 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Barnabas62
Yes, Dennett's book is interesting, although have you heard the joke title it is given, 'Consciousness Explained Away'? Or, more specifically, that he dismisses the notion of subjectivity as non-scientific. Well, maybe, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
This is the old problem of third person and first person - science normally conducted in the former. But I don't live in the third person.
Now, qualia, I have had many discussions about them, and I think it is an interesting topic.
I usually enjoy Chalmers' films and articles, the long-haired one.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Grokesx
Shipmate
# 17221
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Posted
quote:
Yes, Dennett's book is interesting, although have you heard the joke title it is given, 'Consciousness Explained Away'?
To which Dennett says something like you can only explain consciousness in terms of things that aren't conscious, or else it's not an explanation. To explain is to explain away.
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For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. H. L. Mencken
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Grokesx:
quote:
Yes, Dennett's book is interesting, although have you heard the joke title it is given, 'Consciousness Explained Away'?
To which Dennett says something like you can only explain consciousness in terms of things that aren't conscious, or else it's not an explanation. To explain is to explain away.
I sometimes think that it's a philosophical issue, not a scientific one. But I only think that some of the time.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
If minds don't exist, who the hell is doing the science?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Fool on the hill: If consciousness can't be measured, how do we know it exists?
If happiness can't be measured, how do we know it exists?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I like this. If now can't be measured, how do we know it sucks?
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
But we all want it.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
OK, that was fun! But more Circusy than Purg. Let's try to keep it Purg if we can, or if we can't the thread will drop out of sight soon enough.
There are more options than just Dennett and anti-Dennett, or Descartes and anti-Descartes. Not saying you want to go there, or have to go there, of course.
[ 13. January 2014, 21:32: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
But we all want it.
Nice reply. But not true - I know people who positively abhor it.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Frank Mitchell:
Do you exist part-time?
That depends what bit you think is 'me'.
My computer still sits here when it's not turned on, and the hard drive still has all the necessary information for getting the thing up and running again, but until I press the 'ON' button it looks remarkably like the bits and pieces of former computer in the spare room that are incapable of whirring into operation again.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397
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Posted
I kind like the fact that the bacteria in my bowel outnumber the cells containing my DNA. So I am a symbiote.
But I try not to let them speak on my behalf and just quietly, in the dark of night, I am afraid they will discover democracy.
To answer the OP, we exist.
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Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Frank Mitchell:
And clearly something interesting happens when we wake up.
In your own case, what would that be?
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
The thing is, there is a strong argument that existence is all in our mind - because we only relate to anything outside our mind through our senses, the only thing we know exists is our own mind. Everything else is a construction made by our minds based on our senses.
The problem is that we have to define "existence". It doesn't really matter how we define it, within reason, but it will serve to answer the question as to whether I exist and whether you exist.
Then again, everyone I interact with on the ship is only an illusion, a facade. I am not saying it is not an accurate presentation of how you see yourself, but is it you? That is getting into my favorite philosopher Baudrillard, and hyperreality.
But in the end, it depends on how you define your terms. I define my terms so you the concept referred to as I has the attribute defined as existence, and everything else is merely the product of a deranged imagination. I have yet to work out if that deranged imagination also belongs to the concept of "I".
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
My computer still sits here when it's not turned on, and the hard drive still has all the necessary information for getting the thing up and running again, but until I press the 'ON' button it looks remarkably like the bits and pieces of former computer in the spare room that are incapable of whirring into operation again.
Yes, but when you are asleep you are not switched off. You are still breathing, digesting, dreaming etc etc. Just a small part of you is resting, because it needs to.
quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
I kind like the fact that the bacteria in my bowel outnumber the cells containing my DNA. So I am a symbiote.
But I try not to let them speak on my behalf and just quietly, in the dark of night, I am afraid they will discover democracy.
To answer the OP, we exist.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Echo the for Patdys's brilliant and funny observation. I'm not going to forget that in a hurry. Worth having this thread for that post alone.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Frank Mitchell
planked
# 17946
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
Frank Mitchell, you don't like behaviorism?
I read Skinner's book, and Pavlov's later studies, the ones quoted by William Sargant. Pavlov's dogs had more sophisticated behaviour-patterns than Skinner's pigeons. Sargant's observations on Brainwashing and Religious Conversion suggest that humans are more sophisticated still. And all these results seem to be affected by unnatural conditions.
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Faictz Ce Que Vouldras
Posts: 72 | From: Cheshire, England | Registered: Dec 2013
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
I'm attracted to Aristotle's dictum that "Man is by nature a Political (Social) animal", and that Decartes' formulation, "Cogito Ergo Sum", does not take that properly into consideration. It seems to me that my existence is not demonstrated by my own private self-consciousness but by the acknowledgement of my existence by others: Sumus Ergo Sum.
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
If only my creditors believed I didn't exist.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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pydseybare
Shipmate
# 16184
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
I'm attracted to Aristotle's dictum that "Man is by nature a Political (Social) animal"
I can't find the quote now, but I'm not sure that it is correct to summarise Aristotle like this. For him, politics (in the sense of running the polis) was the ultimate and master science.
A man was only truly a man when he was engaging with his civic responsibility for his polis, according to Aristotle.
I'm not sure that is the same point you are making about humankind being quintessentially social. I don't see that Aristotle really thought like that - or at least, not in my reading of his Ethics or Politics.
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"If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future."
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I'm leaving this open for a while, despite its origins. Maybe too wide a theme, but not a daft thread and some interesting comments. Just remember, no Frank to interact with.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Clotilde
Shipmate
# 17600
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Posted
I couldn't help but think of this quote from Alice through the Looking Glass. Alice, Tweedledum and Tweedledee encounter the Red King smoring:
quote:
`He's dreaming now,' said Tweedledee: `and what do you think he's dreaming about?'
Alice said `Nobody can guess that.'
`Why, about YOU!' Tweedledee exclaimed, clapping his hands triumphantly. `And if he left off dreaming about you, where do you suppose you'd be?'
[the rest can be found here]
[edited long-ish quote]
[ 14. January 2014, 22:07: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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A witness of female resistance
Posts: 159 | From: A man's world | Registered: Mar 2013
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
Clotilde I'm sorry to cut that short, but we get nervous when long chunks of anything get quoted. It might be less than x% of the book, and the book might be in the public domain (I'm honestly not sure), but Ship's policy is to err on the safe side, and that felt a bit long to me. I've added a link to somewhere the rest of the quote can be found.
/hosting
[ 14. January 2014, 22:09: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
If minds don't exist, who the hell is doing the science?
Two white mice from another dimension, the computer Deep Thought, and another computer that includes life in its very matrix?
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
Screw Descartes.
I'm sleepy* therefore I am.
__________________
I can prove I am sleepy by the fact that I am sleepy. I have met all pre-conditions to the existence of sleepy as regards me.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
I'm pink, therefore I'm Spam.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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