Thread: On having one's looks commented on Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.
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Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on
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The thread 'Street Harassment of Women' has led me to think about the more general question of having one's looks commented on. Not necessarily by strangers, but by friends, colleagues, etc., who often have the intention to compliment. Is it ever appropriate? Does it matter whether one looks 'pretty' for instance?
I'm female, and I don't know how it is for men, but I find if I'm going to a party and am all dressed up, then it seems to be the norm for female friends to tell each other they look great. Which I'm generally okay with, just because it seems to be a norm in that situation and is well intentioned. But sometimes I think about it, and it does seem to presuppose that people are intending to look great, that the purpose of going to a party is to look great, and that people need some reassurance that they do indeed look great. Is this an appropriate/correct assumption?
Another situation I notice is on Facebook - when you post a picture of yourself and others, to show what you are doing, often with a little anecdote to make people laugh, and someone then posts that you are so pretty. I know it's intended as a compliment, and I know I'm supposed to say thank you, but it always makes me feel a bit uneasy, because my looks are totally irrelevant. I'm not particularly pretty anyway (at least, not the sort of prettiness that might make people stop and think wow!) - but I'm quite happy with how I look, and it's not really relevant, and I don't feel the need for random comments on it. I don't care about looking pretty, and the comments seem to assume I do, and therefore they feel kind of patronising, especially if from a hetero man - it seems like they think I need reassuring that I am attractive to men or something.
I generally say thank you, because I know such comments are well intentioned, but I don't feel very gracious or sincere when I say it. And I always wonder if my attitude is churlish, or if others feel this way secretly too. Or maybe I'm different from the norm because of being asexual and having no desire to sexually attract anyone.
And then there are the people who tell me I'd look so much prettier without my glasses, or with a different hairstyle, as if they're trying to guide me as to how to improve my looks. And I just think 'So what? I don't exist for your aesthetic pleasure'.
Is this more a female experience? Do men experience this sort of thing too? And is it ever appropriate? Do many people enjoy being randomly told they're pretty, or that they look good?
Posted by Dal Segno (# 14673) on
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My approach is to compliment people on things over which they have some choice and to avoid making comments on things over which they have no control.
"you look pretty" praises you for something over which you have no control and therefore it isn't actually a compliment.
"that dress really suits you" praises you for something over which you do have control and indicates that the speaker thinks you have made a good choice.
As another example, there is a subtle but important difference between saying "I like your hair" and "I like what you've done with your hair".
I like it when people flatter me on my choice of clothing, especially when I have put a lot of effort into selecting my outfit. I also like it when people compliment me on my ability to do my job.
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on
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As the saying goes, there are three ages - young, middle-aged and My, you're looking well.
As someone in the MYLW group, I both praise my friends' looks, dress, spirited delivery of Nessun dorma or whatever, and gladly accept compliments in return.
Flattery is like aspirin - cheap, but often effective.
[ 16. January 2014, 12:45: Message edited by: Firenze ]
Posted by Liopleurodon (# 4836) on
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I think social status makes a difference. Between people who know that they are on an absolutely equal footing (close friends) it tends to be ok. When it becomes problematic is when there's a hidden assumption or expectation behind it. For instance, guys* who'll tell a woman they've just met that she's hot and regard this as a favour which entitles them to attention or thanks or a date. Giving a compliment doesn't mean that the person owes you anything. Then there's the assumption that sometimes sits behind a compliment that is "and what I think should be particularly important" which also comes across as aggressive. For instance when guys* get caught up in their own assertions of what they personally find attractive in women* - makeup, lack of makeup, a particular body shape or size or hairstyle - with the assumption behind it that women should care what their expectations are and seek to fulfill them.
* I'm only phrasing these situations in this gendered way because I'm a woman and this is the experience I've had with this, but I'm sure that this kind of thing can happen with any gender combo.
Posted by deano (# 12063) on
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I wonder why men do complement women on their looks. Could it be that many, if not most, women actually like being paid such complements and men have learned that this is a good way to ultimately be able to sleep with more women?
Maybe not here on the Ship where the "right-on" antenae are very sensitive.
Posted by pydseybare (# 16184) on
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Socrates apparently taught this idea of a divided soul, part of which was an appetite. Which seems to me to represent the 'animal' side of the human.
I quite the idea of conflicting parts of oneself, with the more rational side trying to tame and control the animal nature.
Oh yes, sorry, I think judging people on appearance is part of this side of ourselves. We all do it, the better trained of us try not to.
Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on
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quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I wonder why men do complement women on their looks. Could it be that many, if not most, women actually like being paid such complements and men have learned that this is a good way to ultimately be able to sleep with more women?
It does seem that many women do like getting compliments on their looks. I wonder why though. Is it from growing up with a social understanding that looking good is something that is desirable, and that men's approval of their looks is somehing to be prized? Or that not looking good is something to be ashamed of? Or both?
I don't have this social understanding, but then I tend not to automatically pick up and assimilate social norms. So I have no idea to what extent my own reactions are shared by others. I find it odd to be complimented on my looks.
Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on
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quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
Oh yes, sorry, I think judging people on appearance is part of this side of ourselves. We all do it, the better trained of us try not to.
I was asking more about commenting on people's appearance, rather than judging it. I can think thoughts about people's appearance in my mind, but I don't automatically comment on it. I am wondering about the relevance of commenting on people's looks, in terms of telling people they look good.
Posted by pydseybare (# 16184) on
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Well I suppose those who are better under control would not comment on shallow things like other people's appearance.
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
As the saying goes, there are three ages - young, middle-aged and My, you're looking well
Probably four.
Words; How are you today?
Meaning. Poor old bugger; can't be much fun at your age.
I appear to be moving from 3 to 4. Quite unfair really. But when you look like a cross between Santa Claus and Uncle Albert (Only Fools and Horses - Classic UK comedy) it's a bit hard for folks to look beyond that.
Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
I think social status makes a difference. Between people who know that they are on an absolutely equal footing (close friends) it tends to be ok.
And maybe a shared understanding that what one is complimenting is something that the person values?
quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
Then there's the assumption that sometimes sits behind a compliment that is "and what I think should be particularly important" which also comes across as aggressive.
Perhaps this is what I am thinking about - but then to what extent is this not always the case? Not necessarily in an aggressive way, but surely a compliment on someone's looks suggests that this person will value your opinion on their looks. As if your approval is somehow important. Surely, when it comes to looks, different people will have different aesthetic preferences, and what a person looks like isn't really anyone's business? Unless it's in terms of following a dress code at work.
Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on
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quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
Well I suppose those who are better under control would not comment on shallow things like other people's appearance.
So you see comments on people's appearance as an instinctive, uncontrolled thing?
I don't find this to be the case. When someone on Facebook comments that I am pretty, I'm pretty sure they were not overcome by an uncontrollable urge to type these words! I get the feeling they thought it would be a nice thing to say to me, that I would like.
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
It does seem that many women do like getting compliments on their looks.
Many men too, for that matter. It doesn't happen very often, but if someone tells me I look really good it can lift my mood for hours.
Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Many men too, for that matter. It doesn't happen very often, but if someone tells me I look really good it can lift my mood for hours.
Does it make any difference to you who says it (friend, colleague, boss, family member, stranger, etc.) and in what context (at work, at a party, in the middle of a discussion, etc.)? What about how they say it? Whether they tell you what a handsome face you have, for instance, or what lovely expressive eyes, or whether they say the colour of your shirt really suits the colouring of your face? Or that gosh, you look so sweet without your glasses?
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
Does it make any difference to you who says it (friend, colleague, boss, family member, stranger, etc.) and in what context (at work, at a party, in the middle of a discussion, etc.)? What about how they say it? Whether they tell you what a handsome face you have, for instance, or what lovely expressive eyes, or whether they say the colour of your shirt really suits the colouring of your face? Or that gosh, you look so sweet without your glasses?
Not really, no. I just like getting compliments ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
.
Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Not really, no. I just like getting compliments .
Ah, okay. And I guess you like to look good? What if someone is complimenting something that isn't important to you and is just something that is by chance and totally irrelevant? It's hard to think of an equivalent that might apply to you - what if they are complimenting you for being British or being heterosexual or something like that (although these don't really work as a comparison, because people don't tend to compliment such things).
I will have to think more about this - I think I haven't fully processed my thoughts and feelings about this topic, and I suspect I am not expressing myself very well. Or maybe it is simply that my feelings about this are just not shared by anyone else. It is just something I have noticed, that if I post a picture of myself to show what I am doing, and someone says 'You are so pretty', it feels weird and irrelevant to me. I am not sure how I feel about compliments. I like it when someone is enjoying being with me, or enjoying something I've done, and they express this. But it's more about how people feel - not a standard of judgement they've decided to judge me by and give me their seal of approval. And I just think why should it matter if I'm pretty or not.
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
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As a teenager I was very good looking and many said beautiful. I was very happy with all the compliments that came my way. Young men were very attentive.
I think maybe this was because I had so many challenges (undiagnosed dyslexia and ADHD) that it somehow compensated for these.
I played on it, of course. I flirted and teased. But I also had to learn where to draw the line, and how to gently refuse the advances of young men (and young women) without hurting their feelings.
Now my looks are very average and I have to make an effort just to look smart. It feels strange. I didn't realise it at the time, but I got away with a lot when I was younger - because I could charm folks so easily.
My sons are gorgeous Yes, really and they take it for granted too. One day they will wake up old and feel the same sort of confusion, I think.
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
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I've always been praised for my looks (male here), and I have to say, I love it. I suppose if a perfect stranger said it, it might be a bit odd, or intrusive. I suppose that men tend to get less wolf-whistles and such like, but I always enjoyed women coming onto me, but I never enjoyed it, if men did, for some reason.
Posted by Freddy (# 365) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
As a teenager I was very good looking and many said beautiful. I was very happy with all the compliments that came my way. Young men were very attentive.
It is very difficult for older men to refrain from telling young women how beautiful they are. But most men understand that young women don't like those sorts of comments from older men. It's not polite.
However, the older the women get the safer it is to make understated comments about how nice they look.
Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
It is very difficult for older men to refrain from telling young women how beautiful they are.
Really? I'm just thinking that my dad is an older man, and he doesn't seem to have any difficulties in this area. I don't think he comments on people's appearance to their faces at all. Maybe I just have an unusual dad.
Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on
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Looks - no unless it is family or friends, and this is about noticing the haircut or new clothing.
"That's a nice colour" about clothing is about as far as I would ever go with an acquaintance. It is about something I genuinely find eye catching and avoids all judgement about the individual, well, other than their colour choices.
But being Canadian, we talk of the weather before anything anyway, with last week's "cold enough for you?" having been replaced with "windy enough for you?", and of course with an "eh?" or two.
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
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To say that it's shallow to compliment someone, as I think someone did, seems very puritanical to me. It's part of the fun of being alive, being attractive, finding other people attractive, and so on. Why should that be ruled out, as long as it's not intrusive?
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
To say that it's shallow to compliment someone, as I think someone did, seems very puritanical to me. It's part of the fun of being alive, being attractive, finding other people attractive, and so on. Why should that be ruled out, as long as it's not intrusive?
I certainly found it fun!
I give a lot of compliments, I think it lifts the spirits. So, if I think someone looks lovely, I say so. I wouldn't say it to someone I don't know. 'Tho I often talk to people I don't know (every day, it's a dog walker thing ). People at work make an effort to look good, so if they do, I say so.
I think it's good to be spontaneous when saying kind things/giving compliments. Holding one's tongue is for the potentially hurtful stuff imo.
Regarding facebook - it's all about comments. Why would you put a photo on facebook if you didn't want comments about it?
[ 16. January 2014, 15:12: Message edited by: Boogie ]
Posted by deano (# 12063) on
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
To say that it's shallow to compliment someone, as I think someone did, seems very puritanical to me. It's part of the fun of being alive, being attractive, finding other people attractive, and so on. Why should that be ruled out, as long as it's not intrusive?
I agree. I couldn't help but think that some people's ideas of what is right or wrong wouldn't be too far out of place in North Korea.
Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
To say that it's shallow to compliment someone, as I think someone did, seems very puritanical to me.
I didn't see anyone say that complimenting is shallow. Pydseybare said that appearance is a shallow thing to compliment, although I'm not sure if he was saying that for himself, or suggesting that's what others think. My question was not concerned with shallowness - it was more about relevance, appropriateness, and why certain things are valued and complimented, I guess.
Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on
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I'm rather bothered by the undercurrent that Fineline is wrong for not wanting those compliments. Those are her emotions, so they are not wrong. If she tries to muffle other people, yeah she'd be wrong, but she's only been talking about how the comments make her feel.
As to why one would put a picture up if one didn't want one's physical features discussed, erm to show what was in the picture maybe? For instance, there are multiple pictures on facebook of me with my children. Now I am not offended if someone says I look nice in them, but that isn't generally why I put them up at all. Similarly with pictures of people touristing, etc. I find it very bizarre that fishing for compliments might be assumed to be why people put up pictures as I'm pretty sure it's never why I put them up and hasn't been since my early twenties at the latest.*
Similarly, I am never complimented by a stranger discussing my physical attributes. I'm not offended or scared, but that's mainly because I've been a city-dweller all my life and I'm very used to ignoring inappropriate comments. On the other hand, I tend to be rather flattered when someone (known or unknown) compliments my clothes. I actually chose them, and they're not so personal that I might not want to discuss (briefly!) them with a stranger.
*NB: This is not to say other people shouldn't put pictures up to be admired. I am only objecting to the assumption that we all must do things for the same reasons.
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
It is very difficult for older men to refrain from telling young women how beautiful they are.
Really? I'm just thinking that my dad is an older man, and he doesn't seem to have any difficulties in this area. I don't think he comments on people's appearance to their faces at all. Maybe I just have an unusual dad.
My Dad, and my Mum, brought me up not to make personal comments about other people. It all seems under full conscious control to me. Or to stare at them (which can be a bit more of a struggle)
The whole business is probably somewhat harder for men to identify with because we so rarely get comments on our appearance from a sexual point of view. (Ignoring smalltalk about clothes and hairstyles and so on which aren't nearly as personal) Never at all in my memory, and I'd expect that's quite normal for men. So its quite out of our experience, we're never on the receiving end of it. So boys and men need to be taught what to do and what not to do in this line. It's learned behaviour. If they grow up amongst people who make sexual comments whenever they se a woman they fancy, they will think that's normal and acceptable. If they don't, they won't.
Most women look sexually attractive to men. At least when in their teens and twenties. Almost all women will look attractive to some men somewhere. So the chances are that most women, by the time they are in their late twenties, will have been passed in the street, or seen at school or work or at social events, by many thousands of men who fancied them. It probably happens many times a day. For a more than averagely good-looking woman walking through the streets of a city its likely to happen every few seconds, more or less continuously. Most of those men are polite enough not to say or do anything to show it. Some aren't. (When a very good-looking woman is walking in the street you can track her progress by watching men try to sneak a surreptitious glance).
Most men don't have that experience (though a minority of unusually attractive men will). It's quite likely that never in my life has a stranger looked at me and thought "cor, I'd like a piece of that". Certainly no-one has ever said or done anything to indicate that they have. And I think the same is true of many, probably most, men. So most of us have no real direct personal experience of being on the receiving end of such comments.
Sorry to be crude about it, but it is about sex, and sexual attraction. A man catching sight of an attractive women gets sexually aroused. Visibly so if he allows himself to and spends some time looking at her or thinking about her. And that is what's going on. (Someone's going to say that all that doesn't apply to gay men, but honestly, so what? Its not really the main topic here)
Rambling here. I suppose what I'm saying is teach your children well. Make it clear to them, especially boys, what is acceptable and what isn't. Lots of them don't seem to know.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
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Ken - assuming that all men are straight or even sexual is just part of heteronormativity. Treating heterosexuality as the default is what annoys people.
And asexual men do exist!
Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Regarding facebook - it's all about comments. Why would you put a photo on facebook if you didn't want comments about it?
I think you may be missing my point. Of course people comment on photos and posts in general. Sometimes, however, a comment may just strike you as irrelevant, and may not be so welcome as other comments. It may seem to come from an assumption that you don't actually share. So then you may question your reaction and wonder whether others feel the same.
I guess it depends a lot on context too - if there is a male on your Facebook friends list whose main interaction with you is to compliment you on being pretty and sweet, when you have never given any indication that you'd like to be regarded as pretty and sweet, perhaps he is assuming a shared set of values that isn't there. That most women like to be called pretty and sweet? That pretty and sweet are things to aspire to and be proud of? And maybe this is a shared assumption most people have, in which case I'm the unusual one here. I'm just curious about how others see this.
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
To say that it's shallow to compliment someone, as I think someone did, seems very puritanical to me.
I didn't see anyone say that complimenting is shallow. Pydseybare said that appearance is a shallow thing to compliment, although I'm not sure if he was saying that for himself, or suggesting that's what others think. My question was not concerned with shallowness - it was more about relevance, appropriateness, and why certain things are valued and complimented, I guess.
OK, but I don't see appearance as shallow actually. It's how we present ourselves to the world, and to others. How is that shallow?
Just going back to Ken's post - I'm not sure about men not being appreciated, complimented, and hit on. Happened to me a lot, and also to male friends. It takes two to tango!
Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
As to why one would put a picture up if one didn't want one's physical features discussed, erm to show what was in the picture maybe? For instance, there are multiple pictures on facebook of me with my children. Now I am not offended if someone says I look nice in them, but that isn't generally why I put them up at all.
Yes, this. On the rare occasion that I post a pic which has me in it, it's not with the intention to be admired for my prettiness! It's part of a commentary about what I'm doing, and what I'm thinking - it's nothing to do with what I look like!
I'm finding it hard to explain why I find comments on my looks so irrelevant. It's like - well, okay, I've started this post here in Purgatory and people are responding to the questions I've posed. But imagine that, amidst all these relevant replies, someone were to respond, quite seriously, with: 'Wow, Fineline, you are really good at spelling, you clever girl!' Well, er, yes, I am, in fact - but that is completely irrelevant and would seem a bit patronising! Wouldn't it? Or would others not mind a comment like this?
Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
OK, but I don't see appearance as shallow actually. It's how we present ourselves to the world, and to others. How is that shallow?
Ah, well, you'd have to ask pydseybare. But with regard to how one presents to the world, well again, to me this is about relevance. See my analogy with spelling, above. The way I write is the way I present to the world here, for instance - but people are responding to what I say, rather than complimenting me on what good spelling I have!
And of course, spelling, like appearance, is not purely about a deliberate presentation. Some people have language disabilities. Some people have faces that are simply judged as 'ugly' or 'unattractive', no matter how much effort they make. And some people have faces that are judged as 'pretty' or 'beautiful', no matter how little effort they make.
Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on
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And after a certain degree, insisting on commenting on things that were not part of the intentional discussion--for instance if someone commented on Fineline's good spelling more than once--would be obviously over the top, and seen as an intentional distraction from the real topic.
Where to draw the line about comments about looks isn't easy. But certainly not impossible. For instance, when HIllary Clinton was our Secretary of State, news outlets kept commenting on her looks whenever they mentioned more relevant things she had done or said. Sometimes they just wrote about her looks. Many of us saw that as clear cultural sexism. The outlets may not have been trying to diminish HC particularly, but clearly they couldn't see a female politician without pondering her sexual value or lack there of. And of course they don't do that to male politicians anywhere nearly as much. I think this is relevant because it's something that affects many women negatively. For instance, a young pretty colleague of mine complained recently that she finds it very annoying when people see her neutral-faced walking her dog and stop to tell her to smile. It's a comment on one's looks that happens mainly to women and is rarely desired. Maybe some women would appreciate comments on their looks more if they received them more often in appropriate places--when one is dressed up at an occasion or at a bar flirting--instead of a constant barrage at work, on the street, etc.
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
OK, but I don't see appearance as shallow actually. It's how we present ourselves to the world, and to others. How is that shallow?
Ah, well, you'd have to ask pydseybare. But with regard to how one presents to the world, well again, to me this is about relevance. See my analogy with spelling, above. The way I write is the way I present to the world here, for instance - but people are responding to what I say, rather than complimenting me on what good spelling I have!
And of course, spelling, like appearance, is not purely about a deliberate presentation. Some people have language disabilities. Some people have faces that are simply judged as 'ugly' or 'unattractive', no matter how much effort they make. And some people have faces that are judged as 'pretty' or 'beautiful', no matter how little effort they make.
I think it's more subtle than that; I don't think attractive = pretty really. I've known tons of people who were pretty ugly, who were a raving success with the opposite sex (or the same sex).
It's true that there are very good-looking people; I was googling Matthew Goode this morning, cor, what a corker. But they might not be attractive to someone else.
I get it that you're not into this stuff, which is fair enough.
Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Maybe some women would appreciate comments on their looks more if they received them more often in appropriate places--when one is dressed up at an occasion or at a bar flirting--instead of a constant barrage at work, on the street, etc.
Yes. That's why I was comparing with when people are dressed up to go to a party - when they've made an effort and look different from how they usually look, and it's the social norm for women to compliment each other on how good they look. It's more relevant then.
To be honest, I personally don't really like this either - not that I find it offensive or rude or anything, but just that I don't like dressing up and putting on make-up and all that, so if I do it, it's purely so I'm doing the socially appropriate thing, not to look good, and I find it odd that I'm considered to look my best when I've put all these uncomfortable things on myself! It's like people are complimenting me for being uncomfortable and not myself! (I know of course this is not what is intended in this situation.)
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Ken - assuming that all men are straight or even sexual is just part of heteronormativity. Treating heterosexuality as the default is what annoys people.
And asexual men do exist!
Yes, but the behaviour we're talking about here is that of the vast majority. If we were never allowed to talk about something that applies to most people without going through the motions of nodding to every single person it doesn't apply to, we'd never say or do anything.
You probably have some trillions of human ancestors. Not one of them was an asexual male.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Quite unfair really. But when you look like a cross between Santa Claus and Uncle Albert (Only Fools and Horses - Classic UK comedy) it's a bit hard for folks to look beyond that.
Alright, alright! I get the hint. I will stop sending you my list and asking you for war stories.
Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think it's more subtle than that; I don't think attractive = pretty really. I've known tons of people who were pretty ugly, who were a raving success with the opposite sex (or the same sex).
I don't think attractive=pretty either, and yes it is not an exact analogy with spelling (maybe has more in common with writing style in general). Although equally there are some standard sorts of looks that seem to be universally considered beautiful. But, yes, in terms of sexual success, of course there are lots of other things in the equation, when it comes to attraction.
I'm talking more about looks though, rather than sexual attraction. And realistically, although different people do have different tastes, there are people who are generally considered good-looking - by both genders, regardless of their sexual success - and others who are generally considered not good-looking. To have 'unfortunate' looks, is an expression often used.
Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on
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I compliment women all the time eg in the street about a particular item of clothing or shade or fabric. Maybe it's just another aspect of my hyper-vigilence but I like to think they like my tone of understated surprise - a sort of "Oh! How lovely your...". I see it as kind of a blessing actually - just dressed up as a compliment on appearance.
I do not do this with men though.
(Except to clergy on vestments which is a whole 'nother thing of course)
Posted by BessHiggs (# 15176) on
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Strangers and people I only know in passing making comments about my looks is part and parcel of my job. For some reason, folks who wouldn't think of saying the same thing to their grocery clerk, or neighbor's wife, or stranger in line at the hardware store feel perfectly comfortable making comments about my physical attributes. The "you have pretty eyes," comments I like. The "girl, I want to meet your mamma and thank her for giving you that ass," variety, not so much. However, I'm not silly. I know that a tight pair of jeans, a good bra and a little cleavage mean extra money in the tip jar at the end of the night. So I put up with the comments and try to be gracious about it. The same applies to random comments when I'm not working. I smile, say thanks, and move on.
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
OK, but I don't see appearance as shallow actually. It's how we present ourselves to the world, and to others. How is that shallow?
"Shallow" might not be the right word. We are our bodies, we don't wear them like clothes. The differences between our bodies are real differences between us, not just superficial appearance.
But on the other hand we can't really do very much to change our appearance, other than surface things like clothes and makeup and hairstyles. Unlike, say, spelling, where we can learn.
quote:
Just going back to Ken's post - I'm not sure about men not being appreciated, complimented, and hit on. Happened to me a lot, and also to male friends. It takes two to tango!
Of course, but it is orders of magnitude more common for men to stare at women or comment on women's sexual attractiveness than the other way round. As anyone can tell by walking down a street with their eyes open. And as I said I don't think its ever happened to me at all and I'd guess the same is true for most men.
"Hit on" isn't really part of my vocabulary, but if you mean by it what I imagine you mean ("chatted up" is what we'd have said here thirty years ago and I guess maybe we still do) then yes, that does happen occasionally. Very occasionally. Like maybe once a decade. But it's not quite the same thing. More serious for a start, and perhaps not based just on appearance. There is a difference between looking at someone and fancying them (and maybe making some rude comment about it) and actually trying to get off with them. Most people would consider more than scenic value when taking that step. (Or perhaps consider less, if sufficiently drunk, desperate, or dumped)
Same goes for flirting which isn't so much about sex as a sort of social game loosely based on sex, IYSWIM. And doesn't imply any intent to go further than flirting. (Though it might lead to it now and again)
I suppose the men who are rude and agrressive to women they don't know might think they are in some way flirting with them. And maybe they are sometimes. The same behaviour from one side might be received differently on the other.
Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on
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The problem with paying complements based on appearance is the implication that appearance is the most important or, even in some cases, a relevant aspect to pay complements on.
If somebody stands up and gives a presentation at work complementing them on their appearance implies a) their appearance is better than their presentation was; or b) the speaker was too busy considering the person's looks to pay attention to what they were saying. The first is insulting. The second is boorish.
Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
I compliment women all the time eg in the street about a particular item of clothing or shade or fabric. Maybe it's just another aspect of my hyper-vigilence but I like to think they like my tone of understated surprise - a sort of "Oh! How lovely your...". I see it as kind of a blessing actually - just dressed up as a compliment on appearance.
Why surprise? Are you genuinely surprised when your friends are wearing something nice, or is it because it makes them happy that you are surprised?
Something I'm wondering - just in general, to everyone: Does it depend on the friend, whether you compliment them on their looks or not? I have a friend who is quite open about how looking good is very important to her, and she loves compliments, so I do tell her if I like her clothes and the way she's done her hair (although it turns out normally that when I like the way she's done her hair, she hasn't actually done her hair - she's just let it go natural!). She is a very kind, complimentary person, but she doesn't compliment me on my looks, I assume because she knows they are not important to me. She compliments me on things that are important to me.
Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on
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To my mind there's a difference between saying "You're so pretty" and "How lovely you look." I use the latter sort of comment quite a lot and it doesn't mean I think the person I'm saying it to is conventionally good looking - whatever that may mean - or has suddenly become so since yesterday when I may also have seen them and didn't make any comment. It can mean a combination of hairstyle or clothes that I'm appreciating, or a certain demeanour.
An an example, I have recently said to two people I know on Facebook how lovely they've looked in photos. In saying it I am expressing my appreciation that I know they have both been through hard times and are determined to be making the most of life and moving on and looking radiant.
I am not and never have been pretty, so I seldom get compliments and when I do they are usually on my hair or what I'm wearing. I appreciate these, as they are on things I have control over. I've made an effort and it's nice when people appreciate that.
What I do find hard is people who seem to define others by how they look. We have a single male friend who is trying to pair up again and all he seems to talk about when describing his lady friends is how they look. Drives me nuts. ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
Nen - who thinks "I don't exist for your aesthetic pleasure" is a great line. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
The problem with paying complements based on appearance is the implication that appearance is the most important or, even in some cases, a relevant aspect to pay complements on.
Yes. I think this is how I see it. What I look like just seems like something completely unimportant.
Also, I am inside myself, so I don't see myself, unless I look in a mirror and see myself back to front. So what I look like is simply something it doesn't occur to me to even think about most of the time. I'm just me. And what I look like is not an intrinsic part of me. It changes over time.
I wonder if, in my case, this has something to do with being faceblind. I don't recognise people by their faces. I recognise them and think of them by what they say, their personalities, the way their personality comes through their voices and their faces when they talk. If I see a photo of just their face, with no hair, I don't recognise it. It doesn't mean anything to me.
Posted by Freddy (# 365) on
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
For a more than averagely good-looking woman walking through the streets of a city its likely to happen every few seconds, more or less continuously. Most of those men are polite enough not to say or do anything to show it. Some aren't. (When a very good-looking woman is walking in the street you can track her progress by watching men try to sneak a surreptitious glance).
Most men don't have that experience (though a minority of unusually attractive men will)... So most of us have no real direct personal experience of being on the receiving end of such comments.
Well put, Ken! It's an issue that is hard for men to understand and relate to. So discussions like this are helpful. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Nenya:
To my mind there's a difference between saying "You're so pretty" and "How lovely you look."
Yes, I completely agree. 'Pretty' seems so specific, about the shape and proportions of your face, and fitting into a cultural norm of how females are supposed to be (and I'm really not conventionally pretty, so it seems a bit fake when people say it, as if they're trying to reassure me or something - as if pretty is something I am craving to be!). But 'How lovely you look' - that, to me, is broader. It can mean you look happy and friendly and kind and all sorts of lovely things. To me, 'lovely' is about the whole person.
Posted by Freddy (# 365) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
The problem with paying complements based on appearance is the implication that appearance is the most important or, even in some cases, a relevant aspect to pay complements on.
I think that this is especially true with children, who are almost always good-looking to adults.
Posted by Late Paul (# 37) on
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This thread reminds me of this article I read the other day:
How to Talk to a Woman Without Saying, "Great Boots!"
It's about how we train women from young girls to expect to be valued for how they look.
quote:
How very true that the universal first step to building rapport with young girls is complimenting their looks. And how very true that this sends the wrong message, just as the sparkly vapidity of the “pink aisle” tells girls they should be interested in gleamed-up surfaces over substance.
...
It is a scourge not just because of what it says to girls about what we value about them, but also because girls absorb this mode of interaction and use it for the rest of their lives.
Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
Why surprise? Are you genuinely surprised when your friends are wearing something nice, or is it because it makes them happy that you are surprised?
Everything nice that I happen upon is a wee surprise to me...and deserves being commented on as a way of bringing it further to my attention and passing it on/offering it up...sort of like random acts of kindness but just with the verbal dimension.
That way I flit through the day from one nice thing to another and sort of bless people and give thanks as well as being mindful and grateful in my engagement with the world I meet
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
quote:
Originally posted by Nenya:
To my mind there's a difference between saying "You're so pretty" and "How lovely you look."
Yes, I completely agree. 'Pretty' seems so specific, about the shape and proportions of your face, and fitting into a cultural norm of how females are supposed to be (and I'm really not conventionally pretty, so it seems a bit fake when people say it, as if they're trying to reassure me or something - as if pretty is something I am craving to be!). But 'How lovely you look' - that, to me, is broader. It can mean you look happy and friendly and kind and all sorts of lovely things. To me, 'lovely' is about the whole person.
I like this. I really, really like this.
I was thinking this over... first off, I have been experiencing a weird, benign health problem that has effected my physical appearance for a couple years, so this is a touchy subject for me. Boy do I ever appreciate it when someone looks past that and manages to see pretty.And boy, do people get judgmental
(I have to wear a headscarf until things improve. Boogie's comment about "making and effort" kind of stings-- I have had people just randomly decide I am not, and sneer about things like"doo rags" without knowing a thing about me. Thus I have become skeptical to the extreme about most people's ability to read character traits via somebody's physical appearance. People believe what they want-- if they are kind, they try to believe the best, if they are not, the less- than -perfect person is at their mercy.)
And indeed I think in most cases it's not a big deal to comment on someone's looks (I would quickly add, based on the kind of things small girl children hear on a daily basis, one should quickly add comments that one is interested in their personality, accomplishments, and thoughts as well. Just do it.)
Things that cross the line--
1. When the conversation keeps getting dragged back to how pretty someone is. Unless you are a judge on Top Model, it is very unlikely the person you are talking to is only going to be interested in hearing how pretty they are.
As a for instance-- I can't find it, but months ago an article was going around in which was described a quiz show-- boys against girls, science stuff. The moderator went from kid to kid and lightly bantered with them when they hit the guess button, introduced themselves, etc. The boys were all asked about themselves or praised for their quick wit. The girls were addressed in terms of how they looked and what they were wearing. Most gruesomely, a girl who hit the guess button quickly was told, "I bet you did that just so we could notice how pretty you are."
If you don't see the problem with the above statement, you are the problem,I'm sorry. To help, the girls were being told-- from the account, over and over-- that their primary function was to look a certain way.
2. When the conversation moves from how they look to unwarranted assumptions about their personality/ character, etc.
Again, this is the kind of thing that is hard to describe, because most people I warrant would think this a crazy thing to do. But some people, once you have caught their eye, begin crafting a personality for you based on what they want you to be. "I bet you paint. I bet you play the piano. I bet you got all A's in high school" "Hell no." "Oh you're just being modest."
I once dated a guy who decided one of my friends, who was quite pretty and looked like Emily from The Indigo Girls, decided she must be a great singer because she looked like Emily. The woman was tone deaf. I told him so. He decided I was wrong. I told him I sat next to her in church and I should know. She sure did look like Emily, and had many other charms and talents, I said, but God bless her, singing wasn't one of them. He decided I was just being catty.
I had another guy decide I was a good Catholic girl, and refuse to believe me when I said I wasn't. I had a guy argue with me when I said I sang alto, and insist the only reason I didn't sing soprano was that I was too lazy to try. I had a friend decide I was a recreational clothes shopper, and when I said I hated shopping unless I had a specific goal in mind, he just flat-out refused to believe me. I dressed (at the time) in smart coat dresses and patterned tights, therefore I must be a vain, compulsive fashionista.
3. When the compliments add an element of competitiveness to the vibe.
So, to Barnabas up there- yes, all kids are adorable. No problem telling both boys and girls how cute they are. But once again, you are a kind, reasonable person.
I am the sister of a blonde. My childhood was full of adult males greeting the two of us like this:
"OOoo, Sis, you are the cutest little thing ever! Look at the blondie! aren't you just the prettiest!"
"Hi, Kelly."
A few years ago sis and I got a batch of pictures from our early childhood, and I was stunned-- because I had been raised to think of myself as the brunette in the family. When I was little-- when the comments above started-- I was actually blonde. I was VERY blonde. I just was not platinum blonde, as my sister was. That huge difference in greeting, attention, and affection was based on what would amount to a half-shade difference on a L'oreal chart. My hair didn't really darken up until I was about nine, and even then it darkened up to dark blonde. (I dye my hair darker, because i decided to own the brunette thing.)
So tell me that a little seven year old girl who is being ignored by the adults around her because her blonde hair isn't blonde enough isn't "making an effort."
SInce physical appearance is so stringently judged in our culture and since it is made very clear in a variety of ways to women that there character will always be secondary to their personal appearance-- it just is, I'm sorry. Telling a woman she has a great personality is an insult,right?--What might look like a passing observation to a man might be socially fraught for a woman. So based on how I was treated, I might be skeptical about someone's admiration until I get some indication that they are interested in me-- like they ask me about myself. Or comment on something I have said. Or laugh with me about something silly. I like being told I'm pretty, but the personal interest will always mean way more to me that any comment about my looks.
And no matter how pretty you are, there are lots of pretty people around. If someone implies that their admiration of you is contingent on you being the prettiest, that is hardly a stable feeling. Bottom line, people-- human being, male or female- want to believe that there are people out there who are less interested in who falls where on the food chain than in seeing what beauty they can in most people.
(And for me, personally-- I just need more than pretty. Both from myself and from others. There are tons of attractive people out there and you might be one of them,and I have no problem enjoying and appreciating your beauty, even telling you I am-- but what else have you got?)
4. "I just called you pretty. That demands gratitude. Here is my definition of gratitude."
The definition could be anything from insisting on a smile-- a "proper" smile, for goodness sake! -- to sex. Goes back to what I was saying on the other thread-- some people need attention. Some people feel more attractive when attractive people are paying attention to them. Some people cross that line from feeling good when that happens to trying to orchestrate it-- and somethings this happens at the expense of the comfort level, dignity, and respect due to the person they are supposed to be flattering
To echo Gwai's comment, people feel things for a reason, and rather than scolding a person for feeling the "wrong" way, it is more productive-- if you really want to be illuminated-- to find out why they feel that way. And listen. My guess is that enough of the wrong kind of compliments might lead a person to view any compliment with a measure of "What do they want from me?"
There is a way of complementing someone on their appearance without making it the main thing you are talking about. Making it clear that you realize there is a person behind that face.* Since that is a better way to look at people-- as Lewis put it, "YOu don't have a would. You are a soul. You have a body," and at least trying to see the humanity in someone is always better than sticking with whatever sweeping decisions you have made about them based on looks-- it is probably best practice to frame your compliments, should you want to deliver them, with their humanity in mind.
*(For Instance, my tack with little girls who are showing off their dresses to me is saying stuff like "Wow you are wearing purple everything today! You must love purple! and that's a twirly skirt, I always love a twirly skirt, they're so much fun!" So, you see, less about the wardrobe itself and more about the interesting person who chose it.)
[ 16. January 2014, 19:47: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
Posted by Lucia (# 15201) on
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This discussion made me think of a slight tangent to do with commenting on people's physical attributes. My husband is very tall and he has commented in the past on how irritating it is to have people commenting on his height. The cashier in the supermarket who giggled saying "God you're tall", the folks who haven't seen us for a while who say "Have you grown?" (To which he is tempted to reply "No you must have shrunk". Honestly, he stopped growing about 25 years ago!)
As he says, why do people feel the need to make comments about this? I know some people are just impolite, but many of these comments come from people who generally are polite but seem to think this kind of commenting is ok. Hubby doesn't have a complex about being tall, he seems pretty content about it. He just finds people's desire to comment on it boring, irritating and a bit rude.
Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
(I have to wear a headscarf until things improve. Boogie's comment about "making and effort" kind of stings-- I have had people just randomly decide I am not, and sneer about things like"doo rags" without knowing a thing about me. Thus I have become skeptical to the extreme about most people's ability to read character traits via somebody's physical appearance. People believe what they want-- if they are kind, they try to believe the best, if they are not, the less- than -perfect person is at their mercy.)
I find the whole 'making an effort' judgements odd too - different people seem to have a different idea of what this entails and often their expectations will vary according to gender.
For myself, I make an effort to look clean, presentable, and wear appropriate clothes for the setting, such as for work. I don't, however, wear make up. I have a simple haircut that I don't have to style. I wear very simple, soft, comfortable clothes. I have my reasons for this, which are really nobody's business as I don't have to justify myself, but they are partly sensory and partly because I don't feel the need to impress people with my looks.
Once a colleague told me told that I look frumpy and that my choice of clothes suggests I probably don't love myself. I said 'Really? You think I don't love myself because I choose to wear clothes that make me comfortable and I'm not bothered about looking sexy?' She then thought about it and changed her mind and decided that actually, yes, I do love myself. I found it quite a bizarre conversation.
The link about what children are told when growing up interested me. I don't think my appearance was commented on a lot as a child - which is perhaps why I'm not too bothered about it now. But my dad, who never commented on my appearance when I was a kid, made a general comment a few years ago to me; he said that when a woman reaches a certain age, she needs to wear make-up, because she needs to make an effort. In her 40s, he specified, when I asked what this 'certain age' was. So I was okay, he assured me, because I was young enough to get away with wearing no make-up. I informed my dad that in a few years I would be 40 and that I had no intention of wearing make-up then either. He told me that I really would need to - that it's important at that age for a woman to make an effort and wear make-up, because she no longer has the same looks she had in her youth. 'What about men?' I asked. 'Your faces age the same as ours - I've never seen you wear make-up.'
I have no idea how many people share this view of my dad's - that 'making an effort' entails women wearing make-up once they reach 40. But I am now 40 and I still don't wear make-up, and have no intention of doing so.
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Many men too, for that matter. It doesn't happen very often, but if someone tells me I look really good it can lift my mood for hours.
Does it make any difference to you who says it (friend, colleague, boss, family member, stranger, etc.) and in what context (at work, at a party, in the middle of a discussion, etc.)? What about how they say it? Whether they tell you what a handsome face you have, for instance, or what lovely expressive eyes, or whether they say the colour of your shirt really suits the colouring of your face? Or that gosh, you look so sweet without your glasses?
The context matters most for me, usually.
If I'm in a social context, a sincere non-sexual compliment is almost always appreciated.
But there have been times/situations in a professional context, especially if I am in a role where I am to some degree exercising authority-- e.g. preaching, teaching my univ. class, moderating an elder's meeting-- where a comment (particularly a public one) about my appearance can feel like a subtle and probably subconscious attempt to "put me in my place." In a professional context it tends to distract from whatever leadership role I was taking and whatever message I was giving, while sending the implicit message that really my purpose in being there is all about appearance. That I don't appreciate nearly as much, even as I appreciate that all that baggage is usually not intentional on the complimenter's part.
Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Lucia:
This discussion made me think of a slight tangent to do with commenting on people's physical attributes. My husband is very tall and he has commented in the past on how irritating it is to have people commenting on his height.
I can sort of relate to this. I have very small feet, and people often comment on this. Comments on how tiny and cute my shoes/feet are, how they look like children's shoes/feet! People are not purposely rude, but it does get old and boring after a while - and it is irrelevant! Yes, I have small feet. I know I have small feet. I also have big ankles and big knees but no one comments on these! I guess there are certain bodily features it's seen as okay to talk about!
Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on
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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
In a professional context it tends to distract from whatever leadership role I was taking and whatever message I was giving, while sending the implicit message that really my purpose in being there is all about appearance. That I don't appreciate nearly as much, even as I appreciate that all that baggage is usually not intentional on the complimenter's part.
Yes, I find it particularly odd in a professional context. At one workplace I had a colleague, in a senior position to me, who informed me that a certain pair of trousers I wore made my bottom look better than another pair of trousers I wore, so he preferred me wearing the trousers that made my bottom look better. Such a weird conversation - I told him that I was there to take care of clients, not to have an attractive bottom, and that I choose my clothes based on practicality and comfort, rather than which makes my bottom look better.
One of my female colleagues wanted me to report him for harassment, but I didn't, because I didn't feel harassed as such. I just thought it was rather arrogant of him to assume that what he thought of my bottom mattered to me!
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
For myself, I make an effort to look clean, presentable, and wear appropriate clothes for the setting, such as for work. I don't, however, wear make up. I have a simple haircut that I don't have to style. I wear very simple, soft, comfortable clothes. I have my reasons for this, which are really nobody's business as I don't have to justify myself, but they are partly sensory and partly because I don't feel the need to impress people with my looks.
Once a colleague told me told that I look frumpy and that my choice of clothes suggests I probably don't love myself. I said 'Really? You think I don't love myself because I choose to wear clothes that make me comfortable and I'm not bothered about looking sexy?' She then thought about it and changed her mind and decided that actually, yes, I do love myself. I found it quite a bizarre conversation.
The link about what children are told when growing up interested me. I don't think my appearance was commented on a lot as a child - which is perhaps why I'm not too bothered about it now. But my dad, who never commented on my appearance when I was a kid, made a general comment a few years ago to me; he said that when a woman reaches a certain age, she needs to wear make-up, because she needs to make an effort. In her 40s, he specified, when I asked what this 'certain age' was. So I was okay, he assured me, because I was young enough to get away with wearing no make-up. I informed my dad that in a few years I would be 40 and that I had no intention of wearing make-up then either. He told me that I really would need to - that it's important at that age for a woman to make an effort and wear make-up, because she no longer has the same looks she had in her youth. 'What about men?' I asked. 'Your faces age the same as ours - I've never seen you wear make-up.'
I have no idea how many people share this view of my dad's - that 'making an effort' entails women wearing make-up once they reach 40. But I am now 40 and I still don't wear make-up, and have no intention of doing so.
That's bizarre. To me, self-love involves treating your actual skin with love and care. But I would not arbitrarily decide that someone who wears more makeup than I do doesn't like herself. I would assume they just like it.
I could have written a good deal of the above word for word, though, regarding the preference to skip makeup when unnecessary. Simply wishing that more people would leave me alone and let me make this choice frequently elicits comments like this: "Maybe some women don't care about their looks(1) and feel comfortable running around in sweats (2) and unwashed hair (3), but I have respect for myself(4), and like to look their best(5)"
So, for help, I have highlighted the judgemental bits :
1. How do you know what X woman does or does not care about, based on their preference not to wear makeup?
2> Because that's the only option, apparently besides whatever the commenter has chosen to wear. Seriously, I've gotten the "sweats" line from four different people. People who really don't have occasion to see how I go out in public, all I have to do is say I don't wear heels and skip makeup unless it's a special occasion, and all of a sudden I am in sweats. The entire fashion industry has got it wrong, to be properly dressed, a woman only needs one outfit resembling whatever the commenter has described, and everything else can be covered by a sweatSuit.)
3. Just insulting (and more so, may I add, to people who temporarily can't wash their hair due to weird health issues.)
4.Again, how has the commenter determined the person who does not wear make up does not have self-respect?
5. Has it occurred to the commenter that the person(s) you are describing might a.) have actually achieved the best they can at that moment, b.) are choosing to look, mmm, ]second-best for reasons of comfort or convenience, or because their job has restrictions about what they can wear? or c.) thinks, by some disaster of self-delusion (apparently) that they like how they look?
So, back to you guys. And I would really like you to look at it, rather than turning it into "who's right and who's wrong about the casual dress debate?" for the umpteenth time, because I can predict the debate will be pretty evenly divided. But as for you guys-- do see, as per the above discussion, that there might be other factors besides whatever your intentions might be involved in how a woman reacts to a comment about her looks?
A [whole lot of factors.
Posted by Freddy (# 365) on
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I just heard a hilarious take on this subject on this week's "This American Life" podcast.
In Act Two of this podcast a guy on a bus encounters a beautiful woman, and gallantly does not look at her. However, a man who he is with stares at her throughout the entire ride. He then tries to dissociate himself from the man in an effort not to be seen as a creep.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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( I love Mike Birbiglia. And This American Life. )
Perfect. Very much worth listening to the whole thing.
Birbiglia's ability to put himself in the woman's shoes is commendable. And YES!!! to his wife.
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
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My husband is a 24/7 casual dresser. Whatever the occasion. Summer = shorts, winter = jeans. The only time he 'dresses up' is to put on the lycra for cycling (not a good look at 57, hehe!).
My eldest son has been the same until recently, now he has to wear uniform for work, ditto my youngest and he hated uniform at school with a passion.
I have no choice but to dress smartly for work and yes, it is an effort!
The children at school have no choice either. They wear uniform and must have black, polished shoes and no extreme hair styles, no jewelry except for stud earrings. This is true of 99.9% of UK schools.
I compliment people on their smart/well dressed appearance because I know what an effort it is - I do not find it easy myself.
[ 17. January 2014, 06:00: Message edited by: Boogie ]
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on
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Mike Birbiglia is a find! Funniest bit of insight I've heard in ages. Thanks, Freddy. I'm an instant fan.
And a brilliant comment on politeness policy in the context of this rather good thread, which in any case gets a big Hostly tick from me for interest levels.
[ 17. January 2014, 06:53: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
Posted by pydseybare (# 16184) on
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I still think there is something problematic and shallow with judging other people on their looks and with dressing to impress someone else by the way we look. We all do it, I just am not sure that we should.
And I third the motion that TAL rocks. I may have even been subconsciously thinking about that piece when I first read this thread..
[ 17. January 2014, 07:42: Message edited by: pydseybare ]
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on
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If I see an elderly lady rocking a bright colour; a royal purple coat, or bright red shoes, or anything in fuschia or electric blue I do tend to say "I love that colour! It looks really good on you!" and I always get a good response. But I wouldn't comment on the appearance of anyone I didn't know under the age of about 70.
Posted by Freddy (# 365) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Birbiglia's ability to put himself in the woman's shoes is commendable. And YES!!! to his wife.
I loved how Birbiglia's refusal to look at the woman was mostly the typical anxiety that men experience in the presence of attractive women, but which he tried to pass off as principled action that demonstrated his "good guy-ness."
His wife's reaction when he told her about it was classic.
Posted by Moo (# 107) on
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quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
If I see an elderly lady rocking a bright colour; a royal purple coat, or bright red shoes, or anything in fuschia or electric blue I do tend to say "I love that colour! It looks really good on you!" and I always get a good response. But I wouldn't comment on the appearance of anyone I didn't know under the age of about 70.
In less than a month I will celebrate my eightieth birthday. It bothers me that you would be willing to tell me that you like the color I am wearing, but would hesitate to say this to a younger woman. Am I that different?
Moo
Posted by Martha (# 185) on
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When I moved to Texas from the UK, so many people would say, "I love your accent!" This always felt odd to me, and a bit irrelevant - I guess similar to Fineline's reaction to appearance comments on FB. My accent wasn't something I had much control over, it was perfectly normal for where I came from, and it made me wonder if people were actually listening to what I was saying. At the same time, I was glad that people weren't always saying, "What a horrible accent you have."
I don't know that people necessarily thought I cared how my accent sounded - it almost was a spontaneous reaction on their part. But as others have said, it's more satisfying to get comments on things you do have control over. If I've dressed up, it's nice to know that people notice. But if I were pretty enough that everyone always commented, I think I would find it as irrelevant as the accent comments. In fact, you're quite grateful when someone doesn't comment, because you know they've probably appreciated the fact that everyone else does and you're sick of it!
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
If I see an elderly lady rocking a bright colour; a royal purple coat, or bright red shoes, or anything in fuschia or electric blue I do tend to say "I love that colour! It looks really good on you!" and I always get a good response. But I wouldn't comment on the appearance of anyone I didn't know under the age of about 70.
In less than a month I will celebrate my eightieth birthday. It bothers me that you would be willing to tell me that you like the color I am wearing, but would hesitate to say this to a younger woman. Am I that different?
Moo
It's probably because I hope to be a brightly dressed old lady one day, but I already am a brightly dressed middle aged woman (currently wearing a black long sleeved T-shirt, red leggings, and a black / white / red / orange / yellow/ purple / pink swirly print dress.)
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Most women look sexually attractive to men. At least when in their teens and twenties.
My that's cutting it close. Gweneth and Angelina can't turn Ken's head anymore, I guess.
Kelly Alves I love your post/essay so much! You should take that and the rest of this thread and start a book on the subject.
I've experienced so many of Kelly's examples in various ways.
The blonde thing: When I was young I had a dozen men tell me variations of, "Wow you're gorgeous, if you were blonde you'd be a ten." I worked with a man who said that to me and the most interesting part to me, is that he was African-American. The irony of his prejudice based on pigment was lost to him.
Feeling free to comment: I worked in the drive through window of a bank for a few years and people seemed to think I was on TV or something. They would tell me they liked my hair better the other way or my lipstick was too red. Men would tell me they had brought their friend with them so he could look at me. One parked his car and came inside to tell me, and everyone else in the lobby, that I was the most beautiful woman he had ever seen. My mates all laughed.
The random judgements: I used to hear the total disbelief that I truly could not sing, over and over, and now that I'm old and fat everyone thinks I must be a good cook.
I once sat in the back of a college class, so bored that I cut a pair of glasses out of a piece of paper and put them on, hoping to make someone laugh. I overheard a guy tell the one next to him, "Yeah, she puts out."
Beauty is such a huge thing in our culture that we don't even know the half of it. When I was young I could turn the pretty off just by taking out my contacts and putting on my thick glasses. I could go back to the same store where the (women) clerks had been fawning over me earlier and not be able to get waited on at all.
I saw an example once of children assessing two young women who had come in without a word, sat down, and read them a story. The prettier one had been, "nicer" "smarter" and "kinder" than the other.
It's definitely not all about sex. I was disappointed when Lady Adelaid was no longer a regular on "Lark Rise to Candleford," because I just liked looking at her every week.
As to the title question: I met an old friend (in every sense, she's 73) for lunch the other day and we spent the first five minutes raving about each other's beautiful hair, her pretty, new coat, stunning earrings, etc, while our husbands stood in the cold laughing at us. Thinking about it now, it was just us expressing our mutual affection, but how odd that we had to say it like that.
Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
And indeed I think in most cases it's not a big deal to comment on someone's looks (I would quickly add, based on the kind of things small girl children hear on a daily basis, one should quickly add comments that one is interested in their personality, accomplishments, and thoughts as well. Just do it.)
<lots of good stuff I cut>
*(For Instance, my tack with little girls who are showing off their dresses to me is saying stuff like "Wow you are wearing purple everything today! You must love purple! and that's a twirly skirt, I always love a twirly skirt, they're so much fun!" So, you see, less about the wardrobe itself and more about the interesting person who chose it.)
Really like this, because I sometimes do worry about the way we teach little girls what matters. Also because you make me realize that because of my own prejudices I have probably said just the right thing to counteract some of this crap in my daughter's head. Her brother is 19 months now and classically cute in the way that babies are supposed to be. Between that and being a flirt he gets a million more compliments about his looks than his quiet five year old big sister. I didn't want her to be jealous, so I told her that it wasn't that she's not cute, it's that people can think of so many more interesting things to say to her. We can compliment her on being funny, a good reader, discuss her enjoyment of science, or her organization abilities etc. Baby brother may be organized, but he hasn't got a chance of showing it yet, so we just call him cute. I realize now that the subtext was that comments about looks are shallow and unimportant. Whether or not this is true is up for debate, but it is the perfect thing to tell someone who gets told by society too much that looks matter!
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Martha:
When I moved to Texas from the UK, so many people would say, "I love your accent!"
I've heard that when in the US as well. Can't say I ever had a problem with it - in fact it meant there was something about me that people instinctively (and obviously) liked, which for a socially insecure bugger like me is a good position to be in.
I never quite had the heart to tell any of them that the Brummie accent is widely considered to be one of the least loved in Britain.
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
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quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
I still think there is something problematic and shallow with judging other people on their looks and with dressing to impress someone else by the way we look. We all do it, I just am not sure that we should.
And I third the motion that TAL rocks. I may have even been subconsciously thinking about that piece when I first read this thread..
It's interesting, when I think about it, I got used to looking at it the other way round, working as a therapist. I mean that when people come in looking uncared for, it often means they feel like that. By 'looking uncared for' I mean unkempt, unwashed, dishevelled.
And if they start feeling better, they often start to look differently, as if their self-presentation is changing. I suppose they are now caring for themselves. I don't mean expensive designer clothes and £200 hair-cuts.
Posted by pydseybare (# 16184) on
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Whilst at the gym earlier (winning the intermediate level on the black bike race thing. Oh yes), I noticed that another user had a large swastika tattoo on his leg.
I wanted to ignore it and not mention it, or the owner of it, to my wife. I couldn't help judging the owner.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Ken - assuming that all men are straight or even sexual is just part of heteronormativity. Treating heterosexuality as the default is what annoys people.
And asexual men do exist!
Yes, but the behaviour we're talking about here is that of the vast majority. If we were never allowed to talk about something that applies to most people without going through the motions of nodding to every single person it doesn't apply to, we'd never say or do anything.
You probably have some trillions of human ancestors. Not one of them was an asexual male.
But that's the point - heterosexuality is not the default. It's not about 'not being allowed' because that's just PC Gorn Mad bullshit. Of course you're (general you) allowed to assume everyone is heterosexual, it just makes you a shitty human being. Heterosexism is a real problem because it erases those of us who aren't - it's the equivalent of using 'man' to mean 'people'.
Actually it's quite probable that one of my human ancestors was an asexual male (or an asexual of any gender). Asexuality does not mean not reproducing, lots of asexual people have children. They just have no desire to have sex, but do often have sex in order to have kids, or to please their partners, or for various other reasons.
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
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quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
Whilst at the gym earlier (winning the intermediate level on the black bike race thing. Oh yes), I noticed that another user had a large swastika tattoo on his leg.
I wanted to ignore it and not mention it, or the owner of it, to my wife. I couldn't help judging the owner.
That's really weird, I used to have a Nazi client, with tattoos like that, and apparently he had a photo of Hitler on his fridge. Of course, as you might expect, he was a woefully inadequate and pathetic guy. The tats used to make me feel ill.
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
...heterosexuality is not the default.
Of course it is the default. How could anyone think it wasn't?
Or do you have some novel idea of what the word "default" means?
Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Martha:
When I moved to Texas from the UK, so many people would say, "I love your accent!"
I had this experience in Canada. So many people had never met an English person before, and they were always commenting on how they loved my accent. I think, as you say, it was spontaneous (although, equally, I'm sure if they'd hated my accent they'd have kept it to themselves, so they must have thought their comments would be welcome). I didn't mind it at first, because I realised I was a novelty to them, and it was quite nice for people to be liking my accent, but after a while, it got annoying (I was there for several years, after all) and there were often cases where people were focusing far more on my accent than what I was saying. This would be especially annoying when I was saying something serious.
There are similarities to being told one is pretty on Facebook, although that makes it sound like people are telling me I'm pretty all the time, which is really not the case! It doesn't happen very much at all, and it doesn't seem like a spontaneous thing. It seems a deliberate thing, where some men maybe think they are being wonderfully noble by complimenting a woman's looks, and so it feels a bit artificial. If I was drop-dead-gorgeous, I guess maybe it would be more of a spontaneous thing. And maybe, if, like Boogie, I was used to experiencing it all the time, it wouldn't even occur to me to find it odd or irrelevant - it would just seem normal, and my looks would probably be part of my identity. But they are not, and so the whole idea of being defined by one's looks seems so strange to me.
Now I think of it, I'm far more comfortable with children spontaneously describing something about my looks that they have noticed - I remember working with an autistic child who said to me 'You have big teeth'. Which is true, I do, and I was quite happy for him to notice and say something. But then I wouldn't expect a neurotypical adult to say such a thing, and would think it irrelevant, just as a 'You're pretty' comment seems irrelevant.
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Martha:
When I moved to Texas from the UK, so many people would say, "I love your accent!"
I've heard that when in the US as well. Can't say I ever had a problem with it - in fact it meant there was something about me that people instinctively (and obviously) liked, which for a socially insecure bugger like me is a good position to be in.
Did you resist the temptation to reply 'Of course, if you people had been a little more patient a couple of centuries ago, you could have heard lovely accents like mine* all the time, from the people who'd be running your country!'
*Well, given where you come from, not accents quite like yours. But they wouldn't know that.
Posted by Freddy (# 365) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
If I see an elderly lady rocking a bright colour; a royal purple coat, or bright red shoes, or anything in fuschia or electric blue I do tend to say "I love that colour! It looks really good on you!" and I always get a good response. But I wouldn't comment on the appearance of anyone I didn't know under the age of about 70.
In less than a month I will celebrate my eightieth birthday. It bothers me that you would be willing to tell me that you like the color I am wearing, but would hesitate to say this to a younger woman. Am I that different?
Yes.
I think that the issue is that comments by a man about a woman's personal appearance can easily be interpreted as predatory. The more attractive the woman is the more likely it is that this will happen.
The situation changes completely once there is some circumstance that takes the threat of sexual interest or aggression out of the picture, such as a disparity in age. Then a compliment is just a compliment, an appropriate and polite thing to say, an honest noticing of something nice.
Posted by pydseybare (# 16184) on
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Of course it is the default. How could anyone think it wasn't?
Or do you have some novel idea of what the word "default" means?
Seems to me there are two possible meanings here:
1. That most people are heterosexual
2. That people, individualy, are 'by default' heterosexual.
Either way, I'm not sure that it really helps to imagine people are one thing when a significant proportion clearly are not.
Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on
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quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Of course it is the default. How could anyone think it wasn't?
Or do you have some novel idea of what the word "default" means?
Seems to me there are two possible meanings here:
1. That most people are heterosexual
2. That people, individualy, are 'by default' heterosexual.
Either way, I'm not sure that it really helps to imagine people are one thing when a significant proportion clearly are not.
Agreed. I think the point Jade Constable was making was pretty clear, regardless of how you interpret the word 'default'. Default is a computer term anyway, so its meaning when transferred to people's sexualities isn't going to be an exact analogy.
In my experience, when people talk about people seeing heterosexuality as the default, they mean that people assume everyone is heterosexual unless they are specifically informed otherwise. Or that heterosexuality is the fundamentally 'correct/normal' way to be and everything else is just an aberration. Neither of which is a helpful assumption to make.
And yes, as JC said, it's quite possible to have asexual ancestors. And gay ancestors.
Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on
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As someone who has been told that I've a good face for radio, I've always found this an interesting topic.
I try to compliment others when I can as I don't want them to go through the same stuff I went through when people laughed at me on the basis of my so called "looks." I' glad I have a partner and family who value the EM they see not for what he/she looks like but for what's inside.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Also because you make me realize that because of my own prejudices I have probably said just the right thing to counteract some of this crap in my daughter's head. Her brother is 19 months now and classically cute in the way that babies are supposed to be. Between that and being a flirt he gets a million more compliments about his looks than his quiet five year old big sister. I didn't want her to be jealous, so I told her that it wasn't that she's not cute, it's that people can think of so many more interesting things to say to her. We can compliment her on being funny, a good reader, discuss her enjoyment of science, or her organization abilities etc.
I actually got tears in my eyes when I read this. I wish I had an adult in close proximity like you in my life when I was a kid.
Because yes, I guarantee it, one small moment like that will make a huge difference.
Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on
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Where is the line between appreciating human beauty and objectifying someone?
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Where is the line between appreciating human beauty and objectifying someone?
Not so much a line as a series of lines, like a fortress with walls within walls
But one of the walls you ought not to cross is making rude comments that the person hears.
And another you ought not to cross without an invitation is making any personal comments at all to strangers you pass in the street.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Beauty is such a huge thing in our culture that we don't even know the half of it. When I was young I could turn the pretty off just by taking out my contacts and putting on my thick glasses. I could go back to the same store where the (women) clerks had been fawning over me earlier and not be able to get waited on at all.
First of all, I need to share- the first time I saw a picture of Twilight I gasped, "She's a fucking hottie!" so I am happy to confirm that she does indeed know what she is talking about when she discusses the occasionally strangeness of being on the traditionally pretty end of things.
Second, in response to your "thick glasses "anecdote-- head scarf. Brings out weird responses in folk. SOme people will be overly cautious and friendly to me, I guess because they think it is a religious observance of some sort, some people will look like they resent me having drawn their gaze.
But most people don't seem to care either way. It s the extreme stuff we notice, right?
[qb][quote]I saw an example once of children assessing two young women who had come in without a word, sat down, and read them a story. The prettier one had been, "nicer" "smarter" and "kinder" than the other.
This is where shit gets unfunny. We do connect physical appearance with virtue in unwarrented ways. it does damage-- both to the perfectly nice woman who who's kindness is unnoticed by children because she is not pretty enough to earn such notice, and to the "Angel on earth" who can't be a human being for ten seconds without cruelly disappointing someone.
Back to your shop girls anecdote--and it's hard to know what to do when that situation occurs. You can stand and wait politely, eating up your personal time or running the risk of not being helped at all, or you can speak up and make it known you were waiting, thus giving the shop folk validation that you are indeed unpleasant on the insides as well as out, and also validating their rude treatment of you. ("I knew she'd be a problem the minute she walked in!")
Having said that, I also wonder if a large part of the problem is how much a person agrees with what is being projected on them.
quote:
As to the title question: I met an old friend (in every sense, she's 73) for lunch the other day and we spent the first five minutes raving about each other's beautiful hair, her pretty, new coat, stunning earrings, etc, while our husbands stood in the cold laughing at us. Thinking about it now, it was just us expressing our mutual affection, but how odd that we had to say it like that.
Heh. This put me in mind of a recent visit to my cousin (same age as me). Both of us have tomboy inclinations. When we met we went through some gruff exchange of commentary on the smartness of each other's outfits, but almost right away the conversation went from that to-- memories. News of each other's lives. Smartass remarks. And then my cousin turned to her youngest daughter and launched into this description of how much fun we had hanging out together when we were kids that made my heart melt. Achieving pretty's nice, but nothing beats being thoroughly seen like that.
And I can't find it, but someone up there (a guy, I believe) said they hesitated to express appreciation of a woman as it usually signals sexual pursuit. No it doesn't! It's an opinion. everyone is entitled to their opinion. The conflict comes when one expresses and expects some one else to validate it. Once you have said it, let it go.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
I still think there is something problematic and shallow with judging other people on their looks and with dressing to impress someone else by the way we look. We all do it, I just am not sure that we should.
And I third the motion that TAL rocks. I may have even been subconsciously thinking about that piece when I first read this thread..
It's interesting, when I think about it, I got used to looking at it the other way round, working as a therapist. I mean that when people come in looking uncared for, it often means they feel like that. By 'looking uncared for' I mean unkempt, unwashed, dishevelled.
And if they start feeling better, they often start to look differently, as if their self-presentation is changing. I suppose they are now caring for themselves. I don't mean expensive designer clothes and £200 hair-cuts.
You may be able to see certain things about a person's frame of mind by the way they dress, but how much can you tell about their character?
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Did you resist the temptation to reply 'Of course, if you people had been a little more patient a couple of centuries ago, you could have heard lovely accents like mine* all the time, from the people who'd be running your country!'
I think you might be making a mistake if you assume that when Americans compliment your accent they are implying that they despise their own.
I've told many an English person that I liked their accent, as well as Australians and Canadians, but I also think my president's accent is very pleasant as well as many other Americans' accents including the Texas twang and the southern drawl of women like Rosalyn Carter and Barbara Bush.
[ 17. January 2014, 19:39: Message edited by: Twilight ]
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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When I got to England, A couple of people told me I have a cute accent. I was dumbfounded, because I (like many) thought that everyone hated American accents. I started milking it after that.
[ 17. January 2014, 19:47: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
Posted by Antisocial Alto (# 13810) on
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I just wanted to bring another NPR body-image moment to the table:
Chris Christie and Pulling the Red Handle
quote:
I remember once hearing many years ago that one of my friends had told someone he was concerned that he sometimes made fat jokes about other people in front of me. He was worried that it hurt my feelings. (Which it did.) His explanation had been, "I don't think of her as a fat person." And my answer to the intermediary from whom I heard this story was, "Well, he should. Because I am."
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Where is the line between appreciating human beauty and objectifying someone?
Not so much a line as a series of lines, like a fortress with walls within walls
But one of the walls you ought not to cross is making rude comments that the person hears.
Without question. People who do that deliberately are just spiritually bankrupt.
quote:
And another you ought not to cross without an invitation is making any personal comments at all to strangers you pass in the street.
I dunno, I kind of like the idea of people being chummy to each other on the street. I am kind of shyly experimenting with being that way myself. For one thing, it can help dissolve the idea that any unsolicited comment is meant to be predatory-- if random cheery conversation is happening all the time, people will cease to be surprised by random cheery conversation.
The thing is, if I am going to be resolved to be that way, I need to reconcile myself with the idea that not everyone is that way, and not kick myself when I don't get the response I was expecting.
[ 17. January 2014, 20:11: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
It's interesting, when I think about it, I got used to looking at it the other way round, working as a therapist. I mean that when people come in looking uncared for, it often means they feel like that. By 'looking uncared for' I mean unkempt, unwashed, dishevelled.
I think this can be the case. I suppose, though, the people who are coming for therapy are going to have problems of some kind that they are seeking help for. And equally there may be plenty of people who look unkempt/unwashed/dishevelled who you didn't see, because they are happy and so didn't seek therapy.
Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Beauty is such a huge thing in our culture that we don't even know the half of it. When I was young I could turn the pretty off just by taking out my contacts and putting on my thick glasses. I could go back to the same store where the (women) clerks had been fawning over me earlier and not be able to get waited on at all.
This is something I've definitely noticed, being a wearer of thick glasses myself. I wore contacts for a while, but not always. I remember going to salsa classes with a friend, wearing baggy clothes and my glasses, and the instructor (a guy) would totally ignore me each week. Then one week I happened to be wearing my contacts, and tight red top, and suddenly the instructor was chatting to me, smiling at me, flirting and wanting to dance with me to show me how to do the moves.
Something similar happened when I went to pilates classes, although this was with a female instructor. When I wore tight gym clothes and my contacts, the instructor was chatting away to me, being really friendly and giving me tips about pilates. The next time I came, I wore baggy gym clothes and my glasses, and she didn't say anything to me. When I approached her at the end to ask about something she'd said the week before, she didn't even recognise me and didn't seem to want to talk. I guess it's not just a sexual thing (well, unless she was a lesbian, but it didn't seem to be that sort of interest) - just that if you look a certain way, you are judged to be a certain kind of person. Someone 'cool' maybe, that one wants to talk to. I find it so bizarre, as I'm always the same person, no matter what I wear (and what I wear really has nothing to do with my mood or state of mind either).
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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Oooh, been there.
Most painfully, I had a very good friend of mine basically pretend he didn't see me once-- we hadn't seen each other in a couple years, and i had gained about 40 pounds in the interim. I saw him at a theater after the lights went up, and shouted to him in the cheery, enthusiastic way I had always greeted him. He didn't answer. I got closer, called again, he still didn't look. I climbed the stairs toward him and shouted, and his friend poked him to point at me. My friend shook his head vigorously and turned the other way.
So, first impressions are one thing, but when you have gotten to know someone, when you have established rapport with them, when they have gotten a chance to get to know you, and they abandon the good things they know about you in reaction to some outward change? That's asshole behavior, right there. And thankfully I know few people who would be like at.
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
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Kelly Alves wrote:
You may be able to see certain things about a person's frame of mind by the way they dress, but how much can you tell about their character?
Now that question made me think. I don't think it's just how people dress; it's their total self-presentation, which includes clothes, but also the ways in which they move, speak, sit, and everything really.
I think you can tell quite a lot, especially if you just become silent internally, and allow their persona to sort of fill you up. Well, it's a kind of self-effacement, to allow them to take you over (temporarily!).
But this also takes time, as people have layers and layers of personality in them, which may gradually emerge (or not). Now I'm beginning to wish I hadn't quit, it's so interesting.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
In my experience, when people talk about people seeing heterosexuality as the default, they mean that people assume everyone is heterosexual unless they are specifically informed otherwise. Or that heterosexuality is the fundamentally 'correct/normal' way to be and everything else is just an aberration. Neither of which is a helpful assumption to make.
And yes, as JC said, it's quite possible to have asexual ancestors. And gay ancestors.
Heterosexuality is the more common orientation. The majority of humans are heterosexual. The mistake here is assuming any other orientation is then not normal or natural.
No one should assume a default for anyone else.
..............
We all see others through the lens of our own experience, this leads a more skewed view than most will admit.
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Heterosexuality is the more common orientation. The majority of humans are heterosexual. The mistake here is assuming any other orientation is then not normal or natural.
In a statistical sense, homosexuality is abnormal. A few percent of the population is homosexual (Kinsey's 10% is widely thought to be high). In Western Europe, gays are about as common as redheads - most people don't have red hair, but everyone knows a few.
Unusual or abnormal is not a value judgement.
[ 18. January 2014, 01:21: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]
Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I've told many an English person that I liked their accent.
Mrs. Cniht and I both have English accents, so unsurprisingly, eldest Cnihtlet also had one when she went to school. She came home immensely frustrated that all she could get from the school staff was "Gee, honey, what a cute accent you have!"
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Heterosexuality is the more common orientation. The majority of humans are heterosexual. The mistake here is assuming any other orientation is then not normal or natural.
In a statistical sense, homosexuality is abnormal. A few percent of the population is homosexual (Kinsey's 10% is widely thought to be high). In Western Europe, gays are about as common as redheads - most people don't have red hair, but everyone knows a few.
Unusual or abnormal is not a value judgement.
ab·nor·mal (b-nôrml)
adj.
Not typical, usual, or regular; not normal; deviant.
nor·mal (nôrml)
2. Biology - Functioning or occurring in a natural way; lacking observable abnormalities or deficiencies.
And there is also common usage. To many people, abnormal and normal are a value judgement.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But this also takes time, as people have layers and layers of personality in them, which may gradually emerge (or not).
Time-- key point. The deep character observation you describe can't be pulled off by glancing at someone-- and definitely not by glancing only at how they look, instead of at how they comport themselves.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But this also takes time, as people have layers and layers of personality in them, which may gradually emerge (or not). Now I'm beginning to wish I hadn't quit, it's so interesting.
I am going to sound like a complete, judgmental b!^@#, but I would qualify that as some people have layers. It truly is not a value judgement, though. Being layered or complex is not better, just different.
[ 18. January 2014, 05:32: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
In my experience, when people talk about people seeing heterosexuality as the default, they mean that people assume everyone is heterosexual unless they are specifically informed otherwise. Or that heterosexuality is the fundamentally 'correct/normal' way to be and everything else is just an aberration. Neither of which is a helpful assumption to make.
And yes, as JC said, it's quite possible to have asexual ancestors. And gay ancestors.
Heterosexuality is the more common orientation. The majority of humans are heterosexual. The mistake here is assuming any other orientation is then not normal or natural.
No one should assume a default for anyone else.
Isn't that what I said? Or were you agreeing with me?
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I dunno, I kind of like the idea of people being chummy to each other on the street. I am kind of shyly experimenting with being that way myself. For one thing, it can help dissolve the idea that any unsolicited comment is meant to be predatory-- if random cheery conversation is happening all the time, people will cease to be surprised by random cheery conversation.
Where I live random, cheery conversation in the street is the norm. When passing it's a 'hello' or 'good morning', if standing together due to being held up for some reason it's a chat. If you both have dogs it's almost obligatory to stop and ask the dog's name, age etc and chat about them.
Of course 'she's lovely' or 'he's a handsome boy' is a common comment.
Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on
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hosting/
Folks, as you're well aware, the issue of homosexuality belongs in Dead Horses. If you wish to discuss this aspect in more detail, start something there. There's plenty to discuss with regard to the OP without going into debates about the "(ab)normality" of sexuality here. Or, for the irascible, Hell is always an option. Thank you.
/hosting
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But this also takes time, as people have layers and layers of personality in them, which may gradually emerge (or not).
Time-- key point. The deep character observation you describe can't be pulled off by glancing at someone-- and definitely not by glancing only at how they look, instead of at how they comport themselves.
Yes, well, it's like any relationship, people tend to gradually peel off their layers, and reveal more. It also takes trust of course, which is not automatic at all.
I suppose many people have a kind of outer form, or persona, and then there is stuff behind that (usually). Well, I still get surprised by myself, never mind, others.
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But this also takes time, as people have layers and layers of personality in them, which may gradually emerge (or not). Now I'm beginning to wish I hadn't quit, it's so interesting.
I am going to sound like a complete, judgmental b!^@#, but I would qualify that as some people have layers. It truly is not a value judgement, though. Being layered or complex is not better, just different.
I don't think you're a b!@#, or if you are, that's just the top layer!
I guess it's possible that some people have no hidden stuff, but it's unusual. Of course, the exciting stuff is hidden from yourself - spooky!
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
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And another you ought not to cross without an invitation is making any personal comments at all to strangers you pass in the street.
I dunno, I kind of like the idea of people being chummy to each other on the street. I am kind of shyly experimenting with being that way myself. For one thing, it can help dissolve the idea that any unsolicited comment is meant to be predatory-- if random cheery conversation is happening all the time, people will cease to be surprised by random cheery conversation.
Yes, cheery conversation with stangers, definitely! Though in England it tends only to work in pubs, long-distance trains, when people are drunk, during disasters, or in certain Northern cities (most notably Sheffield, where it is hard to wait at a bus-stop without hearing the story of someone's life, but probably South Yorkshire in general. And Lancashire as well. On the other hand there are parts of rural North Yorkshire where you aren't considered worthy of notice unless you have lived in the village for over thirty years and at least two of your grandparents were born locally)
But.... I don't really think making comments about someone's apperarance or attractiveness counts as cheery conversation. Too directly personal, too much chance for offence. Better to talk about other things.
[ 18. January 2014, 11:57: Message edited by: ken ]
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
But.... I don't really think making comments about someone's apperarance or attractiveness counts as cheery conversation. Too directly personal, too much chance for offence. Better to talk about other things.
Agreed.
Posted by Amika (# 15785) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
For myself, I make an effort to look clean, presentable, and wear appropriate clothes for the setting, such as for work. I don't, however, wear make up. I have a simple haircut that I don't have to style.
Ditto.
As for make up, I've never worn it and I never will, and I am now over fifty. I can't stand the stuff on my face, and I really don't care what anyone thinks. It never even occurs to me that people might think it strange - although reading this thread has reminded me that I'm in a tiny minority.
It really irks me that apparently, for women, make up is considered to be almost as essential as clothing. It is recommended that we wear it for interviews, etc. Why should my chances of getting a job depend on my face being plastered in expensive guck? Even customer-facing jobs should not require make up as 'essential wear'.
[ 18. January 2014, 20:32: Message edited by: Amika ]
Posted by balaam (# 4543) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Amika:
As for make up, I've never worn it and I never will, and I am now over fifty.
I'm happily married to a no make up wearer. It doesn't bother me, in fact I seldom notice if a woman's face is made up unless it is overdone. Iy does not bother me.
Actually it does bother me as I dislike the taste of make up.
[fixed code, braving TMI]
[ 19. January 2014, 06:20: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
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The idea that women who wear lots of makeup are shallow is just as bad. I wear makeup every day, and not particularly subtle stuff, because I enjoy it. I love applying makeup, it's like colouring in but on my face
If anyone told me to stop wearing makeup I'd tell them to stuff it, but if anyone told me to start wearing it if I didn't already they would get the same!
Posted by balaam (# 4543) on
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I get people on the train looking round at me. Usually people who have watched Breaking Bad.
Posted by Hilda of Whitby (# 7341) on
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Originally posted by balaam:
I get people on the train looking round at me. Usually people who have watched Breaking Bad.
HEISENBERG!!!!
Re the topic of the thread: I rarely comment on people's looks and when I do it tends to be about attire--'nice tie!' 'that color looks great on you!' and the like.
When I was younger I would get comments and cat-calls from men on the street from time to time. It always made me feel uncomfortable and dehumanized. Now that I am close to 60, I am quite invisible, and I enjoy that.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
But.... I don't really think making comments about someone's apperarance or attractiveness counts as cheery conversation. Too directly personal, too much chance for offence. Better to talk about other things.
Agreed.
... Wait, you said above that comments about appearance were common where you live, and it didn't seem like you were complaining.
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
But.... I don't really think making comments about someone's apperarance or attractiveness counts as cheery conversation. Too directly personal, too much chance for offence. Better to talk about other things.
Agreed.
... Wait, you said above that comments about appearance were common where you live, and it didn't seem like you were complaining.
Yes they are, amongst people who know each other, work colleagues etc. Not when meeting someone and chatting in the street/out on a walk.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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OK, fair enough. That is a good distinction.
Posted by Soror Magna (# 9881) on
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Women's bodies and appearance are a subject for public discourse in a way that men's bodies are not. Even women discuss other women's appearance in a different manner than they discuss men's bodies. This is so internalized and automatic that most people don't even notice it except when it becomes annoying or disturbing. Look at all the magazines devoted to nit-picking famous women's bodies -- why is it so surprising that ordinary women's bodies get talked about as well? It's also why the street harassment being discussed next door is pretty much everywhere, in one form or another.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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Funny you said that-- I ran across one of those "celebs without makeup" articles that was titled something like "Shocking photos of celebrities, blah blah bla."
For the record, except for a couple cases of bad plastic surgery victims, the dressed down photos of celebs only turned them (for me, anyway) from impossibly intimidating demigoddesses to people I could cheerily sit down and have a coffee with, if invited. Most of the ladies looked cute as hell without makeup. The only shock for me was that I experienced bouncy maternal feelings for Beyonce, who I have never really cared for. She looked so... fresh! clean-scrubbed! cute! She had a little hoodie on and jeans and I just wanted to hug her to bits!
There was some explanatory paragraph reassuring the reader that the photos were not intended to shame the women, but merely to show they were just gals. I asked in the comments, "In that case, why is the article not titled,'Reassuring photos of celebs without...'"
[ 19. January 2014, 19:46: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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