|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Seventh Day Adventists: what do you make of them?
|
anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
|
Posted
I have a specific interest since the JWs were, at the start, vaguely associated with Miller, and I would quite like to be able to recommend a denomination that does not believe in hell.
I hope we don't start a DH running on that.
I am, I think, in the majority view that accepts SDAs as a group within orthodox Christianity, albeit a bit odd - rather like the SA. But I know there are those who think they are beyond the pale?
Any views? The main objection is the prominence accorded to the writings of their founder Ellen G White, but I don't know if this is exaggerated.
[de-acronymised thread title]
[ 18. January 2014, 09:31: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
--------------------
Schnuffle schnuffle.
Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
|
Posted
What does 'SDA' stand for?
--------------------
'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
Seventh Day Adventists. In a hostly move to clarify this, I'll edit the title.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
|
Posted
Our landlord and his wife are SDAs and spend ALL day Saturday (their Sabbath)at church and Bible study sessions.
There appear to be considerable number of SDAs in this part of Kenya.
I don't know about their doctrines but they are generally well respected.
However many people here would perceive them as fairly controlling of their adherents:when we moved in we had to agree to be alcohol and smoke free. That wasn't a problem for us but it was interesting!
--------------------
"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
|
Posted
I think I'm probably the only Adventist who posts on the Ship regularly -- there used to be one or two others but I haven't seen them in a long time -- so I will just say that with over 18 million members worldwide, SDAs are a very diverse bunch, and you will find a lot of variety in terms of how strict they are about various lifestyle issues, Sabbath observance, etc. Like many other denominations we are now in a position where the membership numbers are weighted very heavily towards the developing world, which is also where the membership tends to be the most conservative, which can sometimes be a problem for more liberal Adventists in North America and Europe.
But yes, we do have the advantage (if you see it that way; I do) of being probably the only conservative Protestant denomination that doesn't believe in a literal hell, so that's definitely a plus.
--------------------
Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Flubb
Shipmate
# 918
|
Posted
Ellen G White prominence tends to be more American/3rd world than European, and conservative more than liberal so it rather depends where you are and who you're with.
--------------------
In cyberspace everyone can hear your spleen...
Posts: 234 | From: St. Androos | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
|
Posted
SDAs in Sydney run one of the best private hospitals in Aust - certainly it has an extremely low infection rate. In years gone by, it was called The San, an abbreviation for TheSydney Sanatarium, and had a busy obstetrics unit. Most of my extended family were born there. Very general now. Whike it's now called the Sydney Adventist Hospital, most people still call it The San.
Associated with that is a food processing company called something like Sanatarium Foods. The usual range of breakfast cereals many with much lower fat/sugar and higher than some other brands, and then some more. As SDAs are vegetarian, there are a lot of non-meat equivalents to other brands
The food rules in The San have been relaxed over the years. My first adult admission was about 20 years ago, and the diet was entirely vegetarian, with no tea or coffee. A friend was there recently and had a very wide range of foods to choose from and had to hunt out the vegetarian ones. She wanted to eat vegetarian food as cooked by vegetarians. Coffee is now available.
Beyond that, the SDAs are known for their work in schools and hospitals throughout the Sth Pacific Islands. Many of the staff at The San are of Islander background, here for training.
Apart from their obvious Sabbatarianism, AFAIK their general theology is similar to most of the smaller conservative Protestant groups. Trudy's reference to the doctrine concerning Hell is about the only other real difference.
--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
|
Posted
Also, not all Adventists are vegetarian, though church-run institutions and events tend to be. Where I live it tends to be common that Adventists who were born and grew up here eat meat, while those who "come from away" (usually from the rest of North America, but sometimes from other countries) are more likely to be vegetarian. A friend of mine once caused quite a sensation by bringing cooked turkey to a church potluck lunch -- it's Just Not Done, and was talked about for weeks -- yet at least half the people in attendance if not more, ate the turkey quite happily and would eat it as a matter of course at home.
--------------------
Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
We've had this thread before in various guises.
Like Trudy said, it depends on where and when you are.
Here in London SDAs seem to be almost entirely black (but then in London so are the Anglicans!) and very much like other slightly old-fashioned black-led conservative evangelical churches, with a these days a slight pentecostal/charismatic tinge.
Very "straight" people in perhaps the 1960s rather than 2000s idea of "straight". They seem socially conservative (though not politically so), the men wear suits and ties to church, the kids seem rather quieter than some others. At least outside the church doors. Again, that's pretty much the same as black pentecostal or baptist churches round here. (us Anglicans are a bit more relaxed, though in general the black members of our congregation do dress up more for church than the white)
Their more unusual doctrines are rather on the back-burner, at least in public. I don't know how much they are stressed in their churches as I have never been to one.
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
I'd be quite interested to see how this thread goes. I get the impression that the Seventh Day Adventists have a low presence in the UK, and are made up mainly of immigrants from elsewhere who have arrived already Adventists. So I'm not sure that I've ever met one here. I have encountered an Adventist hospital abroad.
I'm intrigued by Mrs Beaky's information. A landlord can restrict what a tenant can sell, and can also bar the keeping of pets, but I'm not sure, even without the religious discrimination element, that an attempt to control what a tenant ate or drank would be legitimate here. Usually the obligations have to make some sort of economic difference for the landlord.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
SDAs aren't all vegetarian but do avoid the meats forbidden in the Old Testament. In the UK much of the SDA population is of Afro-Caribbean origin (as are most Millerites actually) so many Caribbean food shops sell SDA products like smoked turkey wings (used instead of ham bones in bean soups).
I did not realise they don't believe in a literal hell, although should probably have guessed! I don't know about anyone else, but although I know they are Millerites, I don't mentally associate them with other groups like JWs and Christadelphians. I find the vegetarianism of many SDAs quite refreshingly un-macho - and have lots of vegetarian and vegan friends who use their recipes, and are surprised to find a Christian group promoting vegetarianism. I do love an SDA dinner loaf ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Would an SDA church qualify for a Mystery Worship report?
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I'd be quite interested to see how this thread goes. I get the impression that the Seventh Day Adventists have a low presence in the UK, and are made up mainly of immigrants from elsewhere who have arrived already Adventists. So I'm not sure that I've ever met one here. I have encountered an Adventist hospital abroad.
I'm intrigued by Mrs Beaky's information. A landlord can restrict what a tenant can sell, and can also bar the keeping of pets, but I'm not sure, even without the religious discrimination element, that an attempt to control what a tenant ate or drank would be legitimate here. Usually the obligations have to make some sort of economic difference for the landlord.
SDAs in the UK tend to mostly be in cities with a large Caribbean population, since that's where most of them are from along with other Millerites. I am from Coventry which has a big Caribbean population and consequently I went to school with several SDAs and JWs.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
Here is my local SDA's page detailing their services. I am guessing that what they mean by 'benediction' is not the RC/A-C meaning!
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
|
Posted
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
I'm intrigued by Mrs Beaky's information. A landlord can restrict what a tenant can sell, and can also bar the keeping of pets, but I'm not sure, even without the religious discrimination element, that an attempt to control what a tenant ate or drank would be legitimate here. Usually the obligations have to make some sort of economic difference for the landlord.
I haven't a clue what the law here says (and my husband is a lawyer....) we simply agreed as the property was exactly what we needed!
--------------------
"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Callan
Shipmate
# 525
|
Posted
According to the ever reliable Wikipedia they tend to take observer status on Ecumenical bodies (the World Council of Churches, Churches Together in Britain and Ireland and so forth). As far as I can make out this is because they are recognised as an Orthodox Trinitarian grouping but don't accept the theoretical premise that all schism between the churches should be abolished. I think that the general view is that they are essentially all right with some practices that are a bit odd. Which,, if one thinks about it, is really what most bits of the Lord's Vineyard think about the rest of the Lord's Vineyard.
--------------------
How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Would an SDA church qualify for a Mystery Worship report?
Yep. Definitely trinitarian and small-o-orthodox. (unlike JWs and some but not most Pentecostals) And they do accept other denominations as Christian (as nearly everybody does nowadays other than some of the Orthodox and a few nutcase independent Reformed churches)
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
SDAs in the UK tend to mostly be in cities with a large Caribbean population, since that's where most of them are from along with other Millerites. I am from Coventry which has a big Caribbean population and consequently I went to school with several SDAs and JWs.
I'm originally from Brighton and SDAs were few and far between. Loads of JWs though. Who tend to be white there, but black here in London. JWs also have a feel of "respectable working class" about them. Dress conservatively, suits and ties for church, not exactly party animals (though JWs are not teetotal) The few I have known personally were quite friendly and pleasant, not at all the usual sterotype. I suspect the stereotype is mainly due to the embarrasment most Brits feel at being evangelised.
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Would an SDA church qualify for a Mystery Worship report?
That's an interesting new rule-of-thumb definition of orthodoxy right there
In France the SDAs are fully-fledged members of the absolutely mainstream and respected Fédération Protestante de France and in my observation, moving increasingly towards the mainstream in practice.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
It's true that most British SDAs are now Afro-Caribbean, although this wasn't always the case. The declining British SDAs were more or less overwhelmed when the Caribbeans arrived, and black and white SDAs tend not to worship together - although the last time I went, the black congregation had a young and rather endearing white guest preacher.
Regarding worship, whenever I've been to an SDA church (because of family connections) I've noticed that the music is always quite 'old' - no modern worship band stuff, no charismatic vibe. But Black Adventist church choirs in the UK have a very good reputation, and my Adventist cousins are very musical too. The preaching is strong, and there's a high energy level. But all this could be a cultural thing.
In my city, I've noticed the number of SDA congregations growing steadily over the past 20 years or so. I'd guess that the congregations are almost all non-white. But there have been some attempts to face up to the racial issues in the British church, according to this Australian commentator:
http://archives.adventistreview.org/2001-1506/story2.html
[ 18. January 2014, 13:19: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Clotilde
Shipmate
# 17600
|
Posted
Apart from the Seventh Day doctrine do any other teachings of the Seventh Day Adventists stand out as distinct from other Christian bodies?
Posts: 159 | From: A man's world | Registered: Mar 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
I guess they must be diverse. I understand that there are some probably everywhere, but the only ones that make the news are the extremists, like the Branch Davidians [sic] which looked more like a cult and a violent group.
I have felt more than know that they are within Christianity, unlike Mormons which I have a pretty clear picture are not Christian.
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Would an SDA church qualify for a Mystery Worship report?
Been done. I'd like to see more.
--------------------
"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Majorminor
Apprentice
# 17967
|
Posted
I am, I think, in the majority view that accepts SDAs as a group within orthodox Christianity, albeit a bit odd - rather like the SA. But I know there are those who think they are beyond the pale?
Just want to admit that we Salvationists are, indeed, 'a bit odd,' but more orthodox than the SDA's doctrinally. Despite being non-sacramentalists.
Posts: 31 | From: East Staffs | Registered: Jan 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
It's true that most British SDAs are now Afro-Caribbean, although this wasn't always the case. The declining British SDAs were more or less overwhelmed when the Caribbeans arrived, and black and white SDAs tend not to worship together - although the last time I went, the black congregation had a young and rather endearing white guest preacher.
Regarding worship, whenever I've been to an SDA church (because of family connections) I've noticed that the music is always quite 'old' - no modern worship band stuff, no charismatic vibe. But Black Adventist church choirs in the UK have a very good reputation, and my Adventist cousins are very musical too. The preaching is strong, and there's a high energy level. But all this could be a cultural thing.
In my city, I've noticed the number of SDA congregations growing steadily over the past 20 years or so. I'd guess that the congregations are almost all non-white. But there have been some attempts to face up to the racial issues in the British church, according to this Australian commentator:
http://archives.adventistreview.org/2001-1506/story2.html
Far from scientific, but I remember seeing a couple on Don't Tell The Bride where the bride was mixed race and an Adventist, and was shown singing modern worship songs at her church. Iirc it was in London, and it does make sense that more modern SDA churches are in London.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Majorminor:
I am, I think, in the majority view that accepts SDAs as a group within orthodox Christianity, albeit a bit odd - rather like the SA. But I know there are those who think they are beyond the pale?
Just want to admit that we Salvationists are, indeed, 'a bit odd,' but more orthodox than the SDA's doctrinally. Despite being non-sacramentalists.
I don't know what the SDA stance on baptism and Communion is, but I would say that I think not having baptism and Communion at all is quite strongly un-orthodox. The SA are very orthodox overall, but having no baptism or Communion whatsoever is very unusual even in non-Trinitarian Christian/Christocentric denominations. Even Mormons have them. The only group I can think of that's anywhere near a mainstream Christian denomination that does not have any sacraments/ordinances are the Quakers.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
|
Posted
quote:
Here in London SDAs seem to be almost entirely black (but then in London so are the Anglicans!) and very much like other slightly old-fashioned black-led conservative evangelical churches, with a these days a slight pentecostal/charismatic tinge.
In Korea, I would say that blacks, whether from the USA or Africa, are statistically over-represented among the foreign SDAs one meets.
The native-born SDAs run a chain of tutoring schools, at which many of the foreign SDAs teach ESL. As far as I know, these schools are fairly well regarded. They also run a chain of vegetarian restaurants.
I once had a conversation with a student from an SDA family. When I asked her why her mother had decided to join in the first place, she replied "Because they had the best answer to her questions about the Sabbath".
Now, no offense to anyone who has sincerely questioned the Sunday Sabbath, but it does strike me as the type of question that would not occur to most people unless an Adventist evangelist(or some other Saturday Sabbathist) put the idea in their head to begin with.
One more thing, and coincidentally something I was pondering just yesterday...
Is it Adventists who are responsible for reviving the extra-biblical tradition Nimrod was practically Satan Incarnate? I ask this, because I've usually seen that idea promoted by neo-Adventist Armstrongites and others who occupy themselves with worrying about the Sabbath being on the wrong day, Sunday being the day for Sun worship etc.
[ 18. January 2014, 16:25: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
Here in London SDAs seem to be almost entirely black (but then in London so are the Anglicans!) and very much like other slightly old-fashioned black-led conservative evangelical churches, with a these days a slight pentecostal/charismatic tinge.
In Korea, I would say that blacks, whether from the USA or Africa, are statistically over-represented among the foreign SDAs one meets.
The native-born SDAs run a chain of tutoring schools, at which many of the foreign SDAs teach ESL. As far as I know, these schools are fairly well regarded. They also run a chain of vegetarian restaurants.
I once had a conversation with a student from an SDA family. When I asked her why her mother had decided to join in the first place, she replied "Because they had the best answer to her questions about the Sabbath".
Now, no offense to anyone who has sincerely questioned the Sunday Sabbath, but it does strike me as the type of question that would not occur to most people unless an Adventist evangelist(or some other Saturday Sabbathist) put the idea in their head to begin with.
One more thing, and coincidentally something I was pondering just yesterday...
Is it Adventists who are responsible for reviving the extra-biblical tradition Nimrod was practically Satan Incarnate? I ask this, because I've usually seen that idea promoted by neo-Adventist Armstrongites and others who occupy themselves with worrying about the Sabbath being on the wrong day, Sunday being the day for Sun worship etc.
Re the latter, I have seen it amongst uber-Zionist gentile converts to Messianic 'Judaism'*.
*I refer to it as 'Judaism' because these are people from a wholly gentile and WASP background and accuse actual Jews of 'doing it wrong'.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Far from scientific, but I remember seeing a couple on Don't Tell The Bride where the bride was mixed race and an Adventist, and was shown singing modern worship songs at her church. Iirc it was in London, and it does make sense that more modern SDA churches are in London.
Interesting. I went to a SDA church in New York maybe 10 years ago, and they weren't singing worship songs. The SDA Hymnal seems to take priority, but perhaps that's not always the case - especially for the choirs, which will probably want to try other material sometimes, especially if they're entering competitions with choirs from other denominations.
I wonder if Black British SDAs might be less inclined in a Pentecostal/charismatic direction than other SDAs because they want to distinguish themselves from Pentecostals. They wouldn't want to be mistaken for Pentecostals, yet Black British Christianity tends to be stereotyped as Pentecostal. Perhaps this isn't an issue at all in the USA, where black spirituality isn't assumed to be Pentecostal.
[code]
[ 18. January 2014, 18:15: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
|
Posted
Jade wrote:
quote:
Re the latter, I have seen it amongst uber-Zionist gentile converts to Messianic 'Judaism'*.
Thanks. I know I've seen it in non-Adventist sources as well. Hislop apparently mentions it in The Two Babylons, and I'm guessing that's a bit too early to have Millerite influence.
I'll also observe that the villification of Nimrod is probably the most flagrant example of supposed fundamentalists positing stuff well beyond what can be proven by scripture.
[ 18. January 2014, 16:57: Message edited by: Stetson ]
--------------------
I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
I knew a black Seventh Day Adventist in Yorkshire and he was a smashing bloke. Very conservative theologically and quite suspicious of Anglicans - wasn't sure they were really Christians. Baptists were just about acceptable ...
Here in semi-rural Cheshire we have a tiny Adventist congregation which meets in a tin tabernacle at 3.16pm on a Saturday. Yes, 3.16pm.
They do that deliberately to echo John 3:16.
One of them is a highly respected music teacher hereabouts and an all round good-egg.
I'm not sure whether they are officially affiliated with the SDAs, but they are Adventist in practice. There's only about a dozen of them and most belonged to one or other of the local churches as far as I can make out until they were convinced of the Adventist position following a visit by an Adventist preacher. I'm told they came to their conclusions after much prayer and heart-searching.
They seem quite eirenic and well disposed towards the other churches but they don't tend to get invited to Churches Together events and so on ... I'm not sure if this is an oversight or a deliberate policy.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Clotilde
Shipmate
# 17600
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
...
Here in semi-rural Cheshire we have a tiny Adventist congregation which meets in a tin tabernacle at 3.16pm on a Saturday. Yes, 3.16pm.
They do that deliberately to echo John 3:16.
.
Isn't that splendid. I love it 3.16pm ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
makes me wonder what our 10.30 would connect with in Holy Writ!
Posts: 159 | From: A man's world | Registered: Mar 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
|
Posted
Does anyone know if it's just a slur that they read from Ellen Wright almost as if her writings were canonical?
Or is no moe than that they view him a great teacher?
--------------------
Schnuffle schnuffle.
Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
Does anyone know if it's just a slur that they read from Ellen Wright almost as if her writings were canonical?
Why shouldn't they? OK, other branches of the church don't have to agree; but if you consider your denomination to be the true continuation of the church, why shouldn't you consider certain writings determined by your church to be (for you) canonical?
--------------------
"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
|
Posted
The ones who I have known have been kind, a commodity much overlooked in the pursuit of doctrinal purity.....
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
Here is a perfect Wiki article for this thread, I think
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
Have I understood correctly that Adventists don't believe in a 'literal hell'? However, this is not because they are universalists. They believe that Jesus brings eternal life. When we die, unless we have believed in Jesus, that's it. We are dead, nothing, nada. Therefore no hell since there's nobody to go there. But if we have believed, then we do have eternal life.
Is that a correct summary? If so, do they also believe that one only receives eternal life if one becomes an Adventist, has Sunday or Saturday, doesn't drink tea and coffee etc? Or do they believe that the rest of us have got it wrong but still might get in as brands saved from burning?
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
|
Posted
Just to pick up on a couple of points -- again, speaking from one particular life experience of Seventh-day Adventism, but I have travelled around a lot and visited many SDA churches all over the world (and always meant to do a Mystery Worshipper, but was too lazy/overwhelmed by travel to get around to it!).
-Again, there's a lot of diversity of worship styles within Adventism, so you will find some that are very old-fashioned, hymnbook-only, etc, while there are others that are very modern worship-style, praise band, etc. This would be influenced both by how conservative or liberal the congregation is, and also what the ethnicity/cultural background of the church and community is.
-Re Ellen White: I try to explain this to non-SDAs by saying that there's a continuum of how churches view their founders that runs from, at one extreme, how LDS view Joseph Smith (directly divinely inspired, writings on a par with if not superseding the Bible) and, at the other extreme, how Lutherans view Martin Luther (definitely inspired by God, did a lot of great stuff, his writings are still considered good devotional/sermon material, but nobody has a problem with the fact that he got lots of things wrong, too). The way SDAs view Ellen White falls somewhere in between those two -- definitely closer to the Joseph Smith end for conservative SDAs (the church's official position is that her writings are never to be placed on a par with the Bible and that no human is infallible, but in practice some conservative SDAs will be shocked and angry if you suggest Mrs. White ever said/did/wrote anything incorrect). Liberal SDAs like myself would probably be more comfortable at the Luther-like end of the spectrum -- I respect what she did and some of what she wrote, but I certainly don't agree with her on everything or approve of the emphasis that some have given to her writings, which, like everyone else's writings, are very much "of their time."
-I have been SDA my whole life, attended church institutions, and been pretty deeply immersed in SDA culture, and I have never once heard anyone mention Nimrod, even in passing. Well, unless they were actually reading genealogies in Genesis.
-I've only ever once made it to a Shipmeet where I met a large group of Shipmates, in England in 2006. One of the people I met there -- I think it was Gracious Rebel -- told me that she had fully expected me to be black (I'm not) which I think fits well with what others have said about the makeup of the SDA church in the UK. If those of you in the UK want to see some white Adventists (as one might exotic animals in a zoo) go to Bracknell and view the lovely grounds of Newbold College, upon which SDAs of all colours will be seen walking about.
-I think I've told this story when this topic came up before, but back in 1996 I stayed at a guest house in London run by an older white SDA lady who, over breakfast, told us all about how the Adventists from the Carribbean had come to the UK in droves and taken over the churches and now all the churches were black, and all the churches were in financial trouble because "they just can't keep track of figures in those woolly heads of theirs, bless their cotton socks." It was the most racist thing I'd ever heard a live person say with a straight face and I almost spat out my Muesli in shock, but I gather from telling this story in other places that there might have been a lot of English people of her generation, not just SDAs, who might have felt that way about some of the waves of post-WW2 immigration to their country.
--------------------
Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
|
Posted
Enoch, you are correct that (most) SDAs are not universalists; we just don't believe in the immortality of the soul. If you didn't get the gift of eternal life by accepting Jesus, you die eternally; otherwise you get resurrected when Jesus returns. At SDA funerals there is no assumption that the dead are watching us from the Great Beyond or wherever; we refer to them as being "asleep in Jesus."
Even the most hard-line, conservative, traditionalist Adventists I've ever met have admitted (some a bit grudgingly) that, yes, people will be saved from all churches. Us liberal Adventists would take that quite a bit further, but I've never met anyone who believes that you have to keep the Sabbath to be saved, though it's certainly strongly recommended!
--------------------
Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
Enoch, you are correct that (most) SDAs are not universalists; we just don't believe in the immortality of the soul. If you didn't get the gift of eternal life by accepting Jesus, you die eternally;
Thus far, at least, I've heard Anglicans go...
--------------------
"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Have I understood correctly that Adventists don't believe in a 'literal hell'? However, this is not because they are universalists. They believe that Jesus brings eternal life. When we die, unless we have believed in Jesus, that's it. We are dead, nothing, nada. Therefore no hell since there's nobody to go there. But if we have believed, then we do have eternal life.
Is that a correct summary? If so, do they also believe that one only receives eternal life if one becomes an Adventist, has Sunday or Saturday, doesn't drink tea and coffee etc? Or do they believe that the rest of us have got it wrong but still might get in as brands saved from burning?
Adventists are annihilationists like other Millerite groups. Also, while some Adventists avoid caffeine it is not forbidden at all.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
Thank you Trudy Scrumptious. That has been really helpful and interesting.
Jade, I've been intrigued by the references to Millerites. I've been bashing about in church circles for many decades. I'd never heard of them and had to look them up. Are there really still people around who are followers of a man who claimed he knew when the parousia was going to be, and got it wrong over 150 years ago?
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Clotilde
Shipmate
# 17600
|
Posted
I had heard the SDA church is very good on lifestyle issues such as food and smoking, and has, in a way taken a lead on this in some localities.
I seem to recall special honour given to Michael the Archangel - does anyone recall that?
(On an aside I have a relative of a few generations back who was one and I wonder if they have historical / genealogical records).
--------------------
A witness of female resistance
Posts: 159 | From: A man's world | Registered: Mar 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Thank you Trudy Scrumptious. That has been really helpful and interesting.
Jade, I've been intrigued by the references to Millerites. I've been bashing about in church circles for many decades. I'd never heard of them and had to look them up. Are there really still people around who are followers of a man who claimed he knew when the parousia was going to be, and got it wrong over 150 years ago?
Millerite is the general term for that group of churches, or at least that's how I was using it - so JWs, SDA, Christadelphians etc. I am surprised you'd never heard it before although I am particularly interested in small/esoteric Christian groups.
--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
|
Posted
Clotilde wrote:
quote:
I seem to recall special honour given to Michael the Archangel - does anyone recall that?
That belief is most closely associated these days with the ancestrally Millerite Jehovah's Witnesses, who openly proclaim it in their literature.
But if I'm reading anti-Adventist website correctly, the belief is also implied in the works of Ellen White, albeit not stated directly.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Thank you Trudy Scrumptious. That has been really helpful and interesting.
Jade, I've been intrigued by the references to Millerites. I've been bashing about in church circles for many decades. I'd never heard of them and had to look them up. Are there really still people around who are followers of a man who claimed he knew when the parousia was going to be, and got it wrong over 150 years ago?
Millerite is the general term for that group of churches, or at least that's how I was using it - so JWs, SDA, Christadelphians etc. I am surprised you'd never heard it before although I am particularly interested in small/esoteric Christian groups.
In fairness, I would guess that most groups descended from Miller don't spend too much time talking about that connection, since it would be bad PR to admit that they trace their lineage to a guy who is mostly remembered for being so spectacularly wrong about things.
Though I am not a member of one of those groups, so I can't really say for sure.
--------------------
I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
|
Posted
In our neck of the woods the SDA's tend to be associated with an excessive fascination about "the end times" and countless seminars purporting to explain the Book of Revelation. They also have a rather prickly relationship with other churches; don't participate in ecumenical events, local ministerial associations, etc.
Our previous pastor, who'd gotten to know the local SDA pastor in a sort of wave-across-the-street way, tried reaching out to that church by suggesting a "no praying, no preaching" picnic one summer. The SDA pastor was very open to this, but his elders (or whatever they're called in that denomination) put an immediate kibosh on the idea because we are such Romish apostates...or something.
On the other hand...when our son-in-law was gravely ill, he wound up at a large SDA hospital near their home, and he received excellent, compassionate and state-of-the-art care -- and the staff didn't blink an eye at his/our son's relationship; they were treated like any other married couple. They declined SDA chaplaincy services, and no one pushed a religious agenda on them at all during SiL's stay.
The hospital had two cafeterias, one offering solely vegetarian food and one offering both omnivorous and vegetarian food choices. (The food was great, by the way.)
The only other differences I noticed between this hospital and a non-SDA hospital was the piped-in religious instrumental music in the public spaces (interrupted by lullabye music whenever a baby was born -- we thought this was kind of cute), and by a couple of murals of the Garden of Eden, with pre-fall Adam and Eve, that had that sort of fundamentalist feel to them -- like something you'd see in a tract or in the children's Bibles they used to put in doctor's office waiting rooms. The rest of the hospital's aesthetic was very green-oriented -- lots of nature photography -- and a conventional, contemporary bronze sculpture of Jesus with little children -- so the murals seemed a bit cheesy and out of place.
--------------------
Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
|
Posted
quote:
like something you'd see in a tract or in the children's Bibles they used to put in doctor's office waiting rooms.
Where I came from, the most famous of those waiting-room religious books was the Uncle Arthur series, by British SDA Arthur S. Maxwell.
Maxwell did do re-writes of bible stories, but the books I recall best had 20th Century parables, each meant to illuminate some point or other. They definitely seemed "from another time", with the illustrtions being like Norman Rockwell minus the whimsy.
And, you know, for such a small and recently formed group, SDA definitely have their fingers in a lot of pies, so to speak. People have already mentioned their extensive health-care endeavours(they put the monkey's heart in the baby back in the 80s). They also publish Liberty, an American magazine that covers religious issues from a pro-First Amendment stance.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gracious rebel
Rainbow warrior
# 3523
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
-I've only ever once made it to a Shipmeet where I met a large group of Shipmates, in England in 2006. One of the people I met there -- I think it was Gracious Rebel -- told me that she had fully expected me to be black (I'm not) which I think fits well with what others have said about the makeup of the SDA church in the UK.
Yes it was me! ![[Biased]](wink.gif) Was it really as long ago as 2006?! ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
I have recently met someone else who worships at the local SDA church, who is white, so my presuppositions are gradually crumbling away!
--------------------
Fancy a break beside the sea in Suffolk? Visit my website
Posts: 4413 | From: Suffolk UK | Registered: Nov 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Clotilde
Shipmate
# 17600
|
Posted
While I am always interested in the diversity of beliefs in Christianity, and in the unusual, I also think within so called mainstream churches there are some people with unusual views - me included
Ultimately, I suppose we are known by our fruits...
--------------------
A witness of female resistance
Posts: 159 | From: A man's world | Registered: Mar 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mad Geo
Ship's navel gazer
# 2939
|
Posted
Full disclosure: Former SDA, and full education through SDA school systems, including University minus 1st through 3rd grades. Now atheist.
Re: "Adventists do not believe in Hell"
I have always thought this claim rather nit-picky, and here is why (from the SDA "28 Fundamental Beliefs"):
"27: Millennium and the End of Sin:
The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its close Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth. The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever. (Rev. 20; 1 Cor. 6:2, 3; Jer. 4:23-26; Rev. 21:1-5; Mal. 4:1; Eze. 28:18, 19.)"
....and I was taught to fear that as a child, in Sabbath School, and it scared the shit out of me, as much as any Hell talk. It's rather disingenuous on the part of Adventism to say they do not have a hell. They do. It's just a really quick one. IMHO.
--------------------
Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"
Posts: 11730 | From: People's Republic of SoCal | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
