Thread: Seventh Day Adventists: what do you make of them? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by anteater (# 11435) on :
 
I have a specific interest since the JWs were, at the start, vaguely associated with Miller, and I would quite like to be able to recommend a denomination that does not believe in hell.

I hope we don't start a DH running on that.

I am, I think, in the majority view that accepts SDAs as a group within orthodox Christianity, albeit a bit odd - rather like the SA. But I know there are those who think they are beyond the pale?

Any views? The main objection is the prominence accorded to the writings of their founder Ellen G White, but I don't know if this is exaggerated.

[de-acronymised thread title]

[ 18. January 2014, 09:31: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
 

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Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :
 
What does 'SDA' stand for?
 

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Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
Seventh Day Adventists. In a hostly move to clarify this, I'll edit the title.
 

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Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on :
 
Our landlord and his wife are SDAs and spend ALL day Saturday (their Sabbath)at church and Bible study sessions.
There appear to be considerable number of SDAs in this part of Kenya.
I don't know about their doctrines but they are generally well respected.
However many people here would perceive them as fairly controlling of their adherents:when we moved in we had to agree to be alcohol and smoke free. That wasn't a problem for us but it was interesting!
 

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Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :
 
I think I'm probably the only Adventist who posts on the Ship regularly -- there used to be one or two others but I haven't seen them in a long time -- so I will just say that with over 18 million members worldwide, SDAs are a very diverse bunch, and you will find a lot of variety in terms of how strict they are about various lifestyle issues, Sabbath observance, etc. Like many other denominations we are now in a position where the membership numbers are weighted very heavily towards the developing world, which is also where the membership tends to be the most conservative, which can sometimes be a problem for more liberal Adventists in North America and Europe.

But yes, we do have the advantage (if you see it that way; I do) of being probably the only conservative Protestant denomination that doesn't believe in a literal hell, so that's definitely a plus.
 

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Posted by Flubb (# 918) on :
 
Ellen G White prominence tends to be more American/3rd world than European, and conservative more than liberal so it rather depends where you are and who you're with.
 

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Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
SDAs in Sydney run one of the best private hospitals in Aust - certainly it has an extremely low infection rate. In years gone by, it was called The San, an abbreviation for TheSydney Sanatarium, and had a busy obstetrics unit. Most of my extended family were born there. Very general now. Whike it's now called the Sydney Adventist Hospital, most people still call it The San.

Associated with that is a food processing company called something like Sanatarium Foods. The usual range of breakfast cereals many with much lower fat/sugar and higher than some other brands, and then some more. As SDAs are vegetarian, there are a lot of non-meat equivalents to other brands

The food rules in The San have been relaxed over the years. My first adult admission was about 20 years ago, and the diet was entirely vegetarian, with no tea or coffee. A friend was there recently and had a very wide range of foods to choose from and had to hunt out the vegetarian ones. She wanted to eat vegetarian food as cooked by vegetarians. Coffee is now available.

Beyond that, the SDAs are known for their work in schools and hospitals throughout the Sth Pacific Islands. Many of the staff at The San are of Islander background, here for training.

Apart from their obvious Sabbatarianism, AFAIK their general theology is similar to most of the smaller conservative Protestant groups. Trudy's reference to the doctrine concerning Hell is about the only other real difference.
 

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Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :
 
Also, not all Adventists are vegetarian, though church-run institutions and events tend to be. Where I live it tends to be common that Adventists who were born and grew up here eat meat, while those who "come from away" (usually from the rest of North America, but sometimes from other countries) are more likely to be vegetarian. A friend of mine once caused quite a sensation by bringing cooked turkey to a church potluck lunch -- it's Just Not Done, and was talked about for weeks -- yet at least half the people in attendance if not more, ate the turkey quite happily and would eat it as a matter of course at home.
 

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Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
We've had this thread before in various guises.

Like Trudy said, it depends on where and when you are.

Here in London SDAs seem to be almost entirely black (but then in London so are the Anglicans!) and very much like other slightly old-fashioned black-led conservative evangelical churches, with a these days a slight pentecostal/charismatic tinge.

Very "straight" people in perhaps the 1960s rather than 2000s idea of "straight". They seem socially conservative (though not politically so), the men wear suits and ties to church, the kids seem rather quieter than some others. At least outside the church doors. Again, that's pretty much the same as black pentecostal or baptist churches round here. (us Anglicans are a bit more relaxed, though in general the black members of our congregation do dress up more for church than the white)

Their more unusual doctrines are rather on the back-burner, at least in public. I don't know how much they are stressed in their churches as I have never been to one.
 

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Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
I'd be quite interested to see how this thread goes. I get the impression that the Seventh Day Adventists have a low presence in the UK, and are made up mainly of immigrants from elsewhere who have arrived already Adventists. So I'm not sure that I've ever met one here. I have encountered an Adventist hospital abroad.

I'm intrigued by Mrs Beaky's information. A landlord can restrict what a tenant can sell, and can also bar the keeping of pets, but I'm not sure, even without the religious discrimination element, that an attempt to control what a tenant ate or drank would be legitimate here. Usually the obligations have to make some sort of economic difference for the landlord.
 

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Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
SDAs aren't all vegetarian but do avoid the meats forbidden in the Old Testament. In the UK much of the SDA population is of Afro-Caribbean origin (as are most Millerites actually) so many Caribbean food shops sell SDA products like smoked turkey wings (used instead of ham bones in bean soups).

I did not realise they don't believe in a literal hell, although should probably have guessed! I don't know about anyone else, but although I know they are Millerites, I don't mentally associate them with other groups like JWs and Christadelphians. I find the vegetarianism of many SDAs quite refreshingly un-macho - and have lots of vegetarian and vegan friends who use their recipes, and are surprised to find a Christian group promoting vegetarianism. I do love an SDA dinner loaf

Would an SDA church qualify for a Mystery Worship report?
 

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Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 

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Originally posted by Enoch:
I'd be quite interested to see how this thread goes. I get the impression that the Seventh Day Adventists have a low presence in the UK, and are made up mainly of immigrants from elsewhere who have arrived already Adventists. So I'm not sure that I've ever met one here. I have encountered an Adventist hospital abroad.

I'm intrigued by Mrs Beaky's information. A landlord can restrict what a tenant can sell, and can also bar the keeping of pets, but I'm not sure, even without the religious discrimination element, that an attempt to control what a tenant ate or drank would be legitimate here. Usually the obligations have to make some sort of economic difference for the landlord.

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I'm intrigued by Mrs Beaky's information. A landlord can restrict what a tenant can sell, and can also bar the keeping of pets, but I'm not sure, even without the religious discrimination element, that an attempt to control what a tenant ate or drank would be legitimate here. Usually the obligations have to make some sort of economic difference for the landlord.

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Would an SDA church qualify for a Mystery Worship report?

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
SDAs in the UK tend to mostly be in cities with a large Caribbean population, since that's where most of them are from along with other Millerites. I am from Coventry which has a big Caribbean population and consequently I went to school with several SDAs and JWs.

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Would an SDA church qualify for a Mystery Worship report?

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That's an interesting new rule-of-thumb definition of orthodoxy right there

In France the SDAs are fully-fledged members of the absolutely mainstream and respected Fédération Protestante de France and in my observation, moving increasingly towards the mainstream in practice.
 

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Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 
It's true that most British SDAs are now Afro-Caribbean, although this wasn't always the case. The declining British SDAs were more or less overwhelmed when the Caribbeans arrived, and black and white SDAs tend not to worship together - although the last time I went, the black congregation had a young and rather endearing white guest preacher.

Regarding worship, whenever I've been to an SDA church (because of family connections) I've noticed that the music is always quite 'old' - no modern worship band stuff, no charismatic vibe. But Black Adventist church choirs in the UK have a very good reputation, and my Adventist cousins are very musical too. The preaching is strong, and there's a high energy level. But all this could be a cultural thing.

In my city, I've noticed the number of SDA congregations growing steadily over the past 20 years or so. I'd guess that the congregations are almost all non-white. But there have been some attempts to face up to the racial issues in the British church, according to this Australian commentator:

http://archives.adventistreview.org/2001-1506/story2.html

[ 18. January 2014, 13:19: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
 

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Posted by Clotilde (# 17600) on :
 
Apart from the Seventh Day doctrine do any other teachings of the Seventh Day Adventists stand out as distinct from other Christian bodies?
 

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Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :
 
I guess they must be diverse. I understand that there are some probably everywhere, but the only ones that make the news are the extremists, like the Branch Davidians [sic] which looked more like a cult and a violent group.

I have felt more than know that they are within Christianity, unlike Mormons which I have a pretty clear picture are not Christian.
 

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Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Would an SDA church qualify for a Mystery Worship report?

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
It's true that most British SDAs are now Afro-Caribbean, although this wasn't always the case. The declining British SDAs were more or less overwhelmed when the Caribbeans arrived, and black and white SDAs tend not to worship together - although the last time I went, the black congregation had a young and rather endearing white guest preacher.

Regarding worship, whenever I've been to an SDA church (because of family connections) I've noticed that the music is always quite 'old' - no modern worship band stuff, no charismatic vibe. But Black Adventist church choirs in the UK have a very good reputation, and my Adventist cousins are very musical too. The preaching is strong, and there's a high energy level. But all this could be a cultural thing.

In my city, I've noticed the number of SDA congregations growing steadily over the past 20 years or so. I'd guess that the congregations are almost all non-white. But there have been some attempts to face up to the racial issues in the British church, according to this Australian commentator:

http://archives.adventistreview.org/2001-1506/story2.html

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Originally posted by Majorminor:
I am, I think, in the majority view that accepts SDAs as a group within orthodox Christianity, albeit a bit odd - rather like the SA. But I know there are those who think they are beyond the pale?

Just want to admit that we Salvationists are, indeed, 'a bit odd,' but more orthodox than the SDA's doctrinally. Despite being non-sacramentalists.

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Here in London SDAs seem to be almost entirely black (but then in London so are the Anglicans!) and very much like other slightly old-fashioned black-led conservative evangelical churches, with a these days a slight pentecostal/charismatic tinge.

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Originally posted by Stetson:

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Here in London SDAs seem to be almost entirely black (but then in London so are the Anglicans!) and very much like other slightly old-fashioned black-led conservative evangelical churches, with a these days a slight pentecostal/charismatic tinge.

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In Korea, I would say that blacks, whether from the USA or Africa, are statistically over-represented among the foreign SDAs one meets.

The native-born SDAs run a chain of tutoring schools, at which many of the foreign SDAs teach ESL. As far as I know, these schools are fairly well regarded. They also run a chain of vegetarian restaurants.

I once had a conversation with a student from an SDA family. When I asked her why her mother had decided to join in the first place, she replied "Because they had the best answer to her questions about the Sabbath".

Now, no offense to anyone who has sincerely questioned the Sunday Sabbath, but it does strike me as the type of question that would not occur to most people unless an Adventist evangelist(or some other Saturday Sabbathist) put the idea in their head to begin with.

One more thing, and coincidentally something I was pondering just yesterday...

Is it Adventists who are responsible for reviving the extra-biblical tradition Nimrod was practically Satan Incarnate? I ask this, because I've usually seen that idea promoted by neo-Adventist Armstrongites and others who occupy themselves with worrying about the Sabbath being on the wrong day, Sunday being the day for Sun worship etc.

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Far from scientific, but I remember seeing a couple on Don't Tell The Bride where the bride was mixed race and an Adventist, and was shown singing modern worship songs at her church. Iirc it was in London, and it does make sense that more modern SDA churches are in London.

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Re the latter, I have seen it amongst uber-Zionist gentile converts to Messianic 'Judaism'*.

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
...

Here in semi-rural Cheshire we have a tiny Adventist congregation which meets in a tin tabernacle at 3.16pm on a Saturday. Yes, 3.16pm.

They do that deliberately to echo John 3:16.
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Isn't that splendid. I love it 3.16pm

makes me wonder what our 10.30 would connect with in Holy Writ!
 

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Posted by anteater (# 11435) on :
 
Does anyone know if it's just a slur that they read from Ellen Wright almost as if her writings were canonical?

Or is no moe than that they view him a great teacher?
 

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Posted by Garasu (# 17152) on :
 

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Originally posted by anteater:
Does anyone know if it's just a slur that they read from Ellen Wright almost as if her writings were canonical?

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Why shouldn't they? OK, other branches of the church don't have to agree; but if you consider your denomination to be the true continuation of the church, why shouldn't you consider certain writings determined by your church to be (for you) canonical?
 

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Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :
 
The ones who I have known have been kind, a commodity much overlooked in the pursuit of doctrinal purity.....
 

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Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
Here is a perfect Wiki article for this thread, I think
 

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Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
Have I understood correctly that Adventists don't believe in a 'literal hell'? However, this is not because they are universalists. They believe that Jesus brings eternal life. When we die, unless we have believed in Jesus, that's it. We are dead, nothing, nada. Therefore no hell since there's nobody to go there. But if we have believed, then we do have eternal life.

Is that a correct summary? If so, do they also believe that one only receives eternal life if one becomes an Adventist, has Sunday or Saturday, doesn't drink tea and coffee etc? Or do they believe that the rest of us have got it wrong but still might get in as brands saved from burning?
 

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Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :
 
Just to pick up on a couple of points -- again, speaking from one particular life experience of Seventh-day Adventism, but I have travelled around a lot and visited many SDA churches all over the world (and always meant to do a Mystery Worshipper, but was too lazy/overwhelmed by travel to get around to it!).

-Again, there's a lot of diversity of worship styles within Adventism, so you will find some that are very old-fashioned, hymnbook-only, etc, while there are others that are very modern worship-style, praise band, etc. This would be influenced both by how conservative or liberal the congregation is, and also what the ethnicity/cultural background of the church and community is.

-Re Ellen White: I try to explain this to non-SDAs by saying that there's a continuum of how churches view their founders that runs from, at one extreme, how LDS view Joseph Smith (directly divinely inspired, writings on a par with if not superseding the Bible) and, at the other extreme, how Lutherans view Martin Luther (definitely inspired by God, did a lot of great stuff, his writings are still considered good devotional/sermon material, but nobody has a problem with the fact that he got lots of things wrong, too). The way SDAs view Ellen White falls somewhere in between those two -- definitely closer to the Joseph Smith end for conservative SDAs (the church's official position is that her writings are never to be placed on a par with the Bible and that no human is infallible, but in practice some conservative SDAs will be shocked and angry if you suggest Mrs. White ever said/did/wrote anything incorrect). Liberal SDAs like myself would probably be more comfortable at the Luther-like end of the spectrum -- I respect what she did and some of what she wrote, but I certainly don't agree with her on everything or approve of the emphasis that some have given to her writings, which, like everyone else's writings, are very much "of their time."

-I have been SDA my whole life, attended church institutions, and been pretty deeply immersed in SDA culture, and I have never once heard anyone mention Nimrod, even in passing. Well, unless they were actually reading genealogies in Genesis.

-I've only ever once made it to a Shipmeet where I met a large group of Shipmates, in England in 2006. One of the people I met there -- I think it was Gracious Rebel -- told me that she had fully expected me to be black (I'm not) which I think fits well with what others have said about the makeup of the SDA church in the UK. If those of you in the UK want to see some white Adventists (as one might exotic animals in a zoo) go to Bracknell and view the lovely grounds of Newbold College, upon which SDAs of all colours will be seen walking about.

-I think I've told this story when this topic came up before, but back in 1996 I stayed at a guest house in London run by an older white SDA lady who, over breakfast, told us all about how the Adventists from the Carribbean had come to the UK in droves and taken over the churches and now all the churches were black, and all the churches were in financial trouble because "they just can't keep track of figures in those woolly heads of theirs, bless their cotton socks." It was the most racist thing I'd ever heard a live person say with a straight face and I almost spat out my Muesli in shock, but I gather from telling this story in other places that there might have been a lot of English people of her generation, not just SDAs, who might have felt that way about some of the waves of post-WW2 immigration to their country.
 

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Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :
 
Enoch, you are correct that (most) SDAs are not universalists; we just don't believe in the immortality of the soul. If you didn't get the gift of eternal life by accepting Jesus, you die eternally; otherwise you get resurrected when Jesus returns. At SDA funerals there is no assumption that the dead are watching us from the Great Beyond or wherever; we refer to them as being "asleep in Jesus."

Even the most hard-line, conservative, traditionalist Adventists I've ever met have admitted (some a bit grudgingly) that, yes, people will be saved from all churches. Us liberal Adventists would take that quite a bit further, but I've never met anyone who believes that you have to keep the Sabbath to be saved, though it's certainly strongly recommended!
 

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Posted by Garasu (# 17152) on :
 

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Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
Enoch, you are correct that (most) SDAs are not universalists; we just don't believe in the immortality of the soul. If you didn't get the gift of eternal life by accepting Jesus, you die eternally;

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Originally posted by Enoch:
Have I understood correctly that Adventists don't believe in a 'literal hell'? However, this is not because they are universalists. They believe that Jesus brings eternal life. When we die, unless we have believed in Jesus, that's it. We are dead, nothing, nada. Therefore no hell since there's nobody to go there. But if we have believed, then we do have eternal life.

Is that a correct summary? If so, do they also believe that one only receives eternal life if one becomes an Adventist, has Sunday or Saturday, doesn't drink tea and coffee etc? Or do they believe that the rest of us have got it wrong but still might get in as brands saved from burning?

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Originally posted by Enoch:
Thank you Trudy Scrumptious. That has been really helpful and interesting.


Jade, I've been intrigued by the references to Millerites. I've been bashing about in church circles for many decades. I'd never heard of them and had to look them up. Are there really still people around who are followers of a man who claimed he knew when the parousia was going to be, and got it wrong over 150 years ago?

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I seem to recall special honour given to Michael the Archangel - does anyone recall that?

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:

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Originally posted by Enoch:
Thank you Trudy Scrumptious. That has been really helpful and interesting.


Jade, I've been intrigued by the references to Millerites. I've been bashing about in church circles for many decades. I'd never heard of them and had to look them up. Are there really still people around who are followers of a man who claimed he knew when the parousia was going to be, and got it wrong over 150 years ago?

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Millerite is the general term for that group of churches, or at least that's how I was using it - so JWs, SDA, Christadelphians etc. I am surprised you'd never heard it before although I am particularly interested in small/esoteric Christian groups.

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like something you'd see in a tract or in the children's Bibles they used to put in doctor's office waiting rooms.

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Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
-I've only ever once made it to a Shipmeet where I met a large group of Shipmates, in England in 2006. One of the people I met there -- I think it was Gracious Rebel -- told me that she had fully expected me to be black (I'm not) which I think fits well with what others have said about the makeup of the SDA church in the UK.

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Yes it was me! Was it really as long ago as 2006?!
I have recently met someone else who worships at the local SDA church, who is white, so my presuppositions are gradually crumbling away!
 

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Posted by Clotilde (# 17600) on :
 
While I am always interested in the diversity of beliefs in Christianity, and in the unusual, I also think within so called mainstream churches there are some people with unusual views - me included

Ultimately, I suppose we are known by our fruits...
 

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Posted by Mad Geo (# 2939) on :
 
Full disclosure: Former SDA, and full education through SDA school systems, including University minus 1st through 3rd grades. Now atheist.

Re: "Adventists do not believe in Hell"

I have always thought this claim rather nit-picky, and here is why (from the SDA "28 Fundamental Beliefs"):

"27: Millennium and the End of Sin:
The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its close Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth. The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever. (Rev. 20; 1 Cor. 6:2, 3; Jer. 4:23-26; Rev. 21:1-5; Mal. 4:1; Eze. 28:18, 19.)"

....and I was taught to fear that as a child, in Sabbath School, and it scared the shit out of me, as much as any Hell talk. It's rather disingenuous on the part of Adventism to say they do not have a hell. They do. It's just a really quick one. IMHO.
 

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Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
Yeah, I always heard them referred to as annihilationalist. Just like Roger Forster of Ichthus to name but one prominent evo

[ 20. January 2014, 19:01: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
 

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Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :
 
Well, MadGeo, that's definitely in Adventist teaching, but I obviously haven't heard it emphasized as much as you did. Clearly, somebody was really working hard to scare the shit out of you. I know some Adventists who seem to kind of regret that they DON'T believe in hell as they'd like to consign people to it, but technically we believe in eternal death for the wicked, not torture.

I'd never heard the term "annihilationist" in Adventist circles but I guess it is accurate -- I think the big problem with a lot of the language used to describe our beliefs by outsiders ("soul sleep" is another one I hear used to describe SDA beliefs, but never used by SDAs themselves in my experience) is that they come from a starting point of assuming humans have an immortal soul, and then coming up with terms to explain what happens to that soul. Whereas Adventists don't believe in the soul as a separate entity from the body at all, so to say that it sleeps, or is annihilated, makes very little sense to us, although it can be a good way of explaining it to other people.

Further to MadGeo's point -- I wouldn't want to suggest that there is no fearmongering in Adventism, but in my experience (which is obviously just one person's experience) it tends to be attached not so much to the fate of the wicked at the judgement, as to the fate of the righteous before the Second Coming. Several generations of Adventist kids have been pretty badly scarred, I think, by tales about the "time of trouble" and the need to prepare for horrendous persecution and "will your faith be able to stand in the final testing??" This wasn't my experience personally as my very moderate and skeptical parents managed to innoculate me very thoroughly against the more extreme things I heard in church, but I do know of many SDAs who were raised in the same place and time as I was, who had horrifying nightmares about the "end times" and were afraid they couldn't possibly be ready enough, or good enough, to withstand persecution. But I think Adventists may share that in common with some other Christian groups that place a heavy emphasis on the Second Coming and "the end times."
 

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Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :
 

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Originally posted by Stetson:
[In Korea, I would say that blacks, whether from the USA or Africa, are statistically over-represented among the foreign SDAs one meets.

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Originally posted by seekingsister:

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Originally posted by Stetson:
[In Korea, I would say that blacks, whether from the USA or Africa, are statistically over-represented among the foreign SDAs one meets.

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Very interesting - the SDAs I know back in the states are all of Korean origin, or white. Is SDA quite a large organization in Korea?

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Originally posted by the Pookah:
... the Thai buddhist establishment refuses to ordain nuns ...

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