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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Praying for Our Own
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
Something has happened at church the last couple of weeks that, I don't find wrong exactly but it gives me pause and makes me a tiny bit uncomfortable.
Last week someone led intercessory prayer and listed a bunch of countries and a long list of hardships and sufferings (from violence and discrimination to natural disasters and famine) and asked us to pray for the Christians suffering in these situations in this way.
This morning we had a guest speaker from an organisation that does advocacy for Christians in countries where they are persecuted. He spoke well and the situations he described are definitely worthy of prayer and support.
I was a little bothered by this because it's hard not to think of all the other people who suffer in a similar way who happen not to be Christians.
So my question is, should we be more focussed on Christians when we pray for, give money or time in supporting these causes? Maybe it's just natural to identify with, and want to help, people with whom we share something. Or maybe we would do well to remember that when there's a regime that quashes human rights and religious freedoms it affects other minority groups (something the speaker this morning acknowledged which I was glad of).
What do you think?
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
We should care for all people, and particularly any God happens to throw into our laps, as it were. But the "care for Christians" thing is not meant to suggest less care for others, rather, it's like caring for family. If you can't even do that bare minimum, you are worse than the average run of mankind and have no business strutting your ethics (general you).
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Church prayers focus on all sorts of things on various occasions. I see nothing wrong with praying specifically for Christians sometimes, so long as we pray for the rest of humanity as well.
I once heard an Iraqi Christian say that the Christian community in Iraq felt ignored by Christians in the West. If we fail to pray for them then that sentiment is justified. If this man had been in front of you, would you have told him that praying specifically for suffering Christians wasn't the Church's job?
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
I'm also very wary of painting something as an 'usvsthem' argument. Sometimes it's true, of course.
Other times, it's a crude and unforgiving shorthand that destroys the messy truth even while beseeching the Almighty to intervene. But which side is He supposed to weigh in on?
Like the argument I'm currently involved in: I find myself on the 'them' side, and I've challenged the cheerleader for the 'us' team to either tell me I'm not a Christian, or hold fire with the accusations of religious persecution.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I had the same queasiness last week when the CAR was specifically mentioned. Just today a Christian mob murdered and burned two Muslims. They - we - murdered 22 on Friday. I had to turn off a BBC news interview, too late, of a vengeful Christian, who had lost his family foully to evil by Muslims, stabbing at least one random Muslim in the eyes.
I have been taken to task here before for questioning that Christians are being persecuted for being other than nominally Christian, for being non-Muslim or non-Hindu or non-whatever. This has NOTHING to do with being persecuted for being Christ-like, following Christ.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Late Paul:
... So my question is, should we be more focussed on Christians when we pray for, give money or time in supporting these causes? ...
What do you think?
Yes, because these are our brothers and sisters. It is the same as the way it engages us even more when bad things happen to our own blood family than when they happen to other people.
If we don't feel and believe this, it indicates that we don't really take seriously that we are one in Christ and these are our brothers and sisters.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
So these crazed murderers are my brothers and their victims are not?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
In the book Les Miserables, Hugo describes nuns in his fictitious religious order lying prostrate and praying for the forgiveness of the entire world.
I remember thinking,when I read this, boy, we need a few people willing to do that.
[ 19. January 2014, 21:22: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I once heard an Iraqi Christian say that the Christian community in Iraq felt ignored by Christians in the West. If we fail to pray for them then that sentiment is justified. If this man had been in front of you, would you have told him that praying specifically for suffering Christians wasn't the Church's job?
I hope I would have more tact. Actually that wouldn't be an issue because I'm bad at conflict so regardless of what I thought I probably would remain silent.
But the problem with this scenario is that you could put along side this man a series of other people, representative of other groups, all of whom could ask me whether I'd forgotten them, whether I care about their plight. Would I then, in front of this group, say that my responsibility was first of all to this man rather than them?
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
We should care for all people, and particularly any God happens to throw into our laps, as it were. But the "care for Christians" thing is not meant to suggest less care for others, rather, it's like caring for family. If you can't even do that bare minimum, you are worse than the average run of mankind and have no business strutting your ethics (general you).
That's a pretty tall order for a "bare minimum". There are lots of suffering Christians.
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Yes, because these are our brothers and sisters. It is the same as the way it engages us even more when bad things happen to our own blood family than when they happen to other people.
But the connection I have with my blood family is a close one that comes from my relationship with them. The connection that I have with someone half way around the world is much more tenuous. I share a common humanity and I hope I have compassion but I'm not sure there's any more than a tiny bit more in the case of a Christian than a non-Christian.
quote:
If we don't feel and believe this, it indicates that we don't really take seriously that we are one in Christ and these are our brothers and sisters.
That may be true.
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Auuughhhhh. Let's try again. First of all, it's a false dichotomy to say that because we pray specifically for Christians, even in a Christian v. Whatsit conflict, we are therefore "against" the Whatsits. We are called to pray. We are not called to judge. That is God's job, and he isn't going to allow us to overrule his wisdom by our prayers, so we can just chill out about that.
We can pray for one "side" (if we must phrase it that way) ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) . We can pray for both sides. God has not called us to consistency. He has not even called us to logic. He HAS called us to brotherly/sisterly love, and that includes praying.
Now it is human nature to care about those in our own family. Those who do so are simply ordinary humans. Those who fail to do so (without a damn good excuse) have fallen below the level of decent human behavior. As Jesus said, "46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?" (Matthew 5)
He points out that he expects more from Christians; but he certainly does not expect less. To refuse to love the brethren (and sistren) out of some twisted desire to be evenhanded is bass-ackward. If you wish to be evenhanded, don't stop loving fellow CHristians (praying for them, etc.); start loving the other folk too.
Sorry, I'm sick and a bit cranky tonight.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
LC - I think perhaps the discomfort (and I have plenty of my own) comes from Christianity being a position of privilege in the West. Christians are more likely to be the oppressors than the oppressed - and though we should pray for our enemies, I find it hard to consider Christians who oppress other groups to be 'our own'. I don't want them to do what they do in Christianity's name in the first place.
While clearly not all Christians in the West are like that, I am not wholly comfortable with treating people better because they are Christians. It doesn't mean I stop praying for other Christians, but I don't do it because they are Christians, I would pray for anyone equally regardless of faith.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Christians are more likely to be the oppressors than the oppressed
What evidence do you have for this Jade?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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pydseybare
Shipmate
# 16184
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I once heard an Iraqi Christian say that the Christian community in Iraq felt ignored by Christians in the West. If we fail to pray for them then that sentiment is justified. If this man had been in front of you, would you have told him that praying specifically for suffering Christians wasn't the Church's job?
I used to work in the Middle East. In one country (not Iraq), a poor Christian told me directly that he was being persecuted by his neighbours. I saw no evidence for this. He was certainly poor and in a bad situation, but it was not clear that he was being specifically targetted by non-Christian neighbours.
That isn't to say that persecution of Christians in the Middle East is unknown, but that we shouldn't be quick to accept stories of persecution, even if we hear them first hand, without investigation and evidence.
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Yes, because these are our brothers and sisters. It is the same as the way it engages us even more when bad things happen to our own blood family than when they happen to other people.
If we don't feel and believe this, it indicates that we don't really take seriously that we are one in Christ and these are our brothers and sisters.
If you really think this, presumably this means that you are working to ensure that all your brethren around the world have access to the things that you have as standard (clean water, sanitation, healthcare, schooling), and are in favour of open and free immigration.
I don't know what your opinions are on these issues, but in my experience, British Christians who say such things are the same people who want to restrict immigration.
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"If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future."
Posts: 812 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
I'm certainly not suggesting not praying for or helping Christians. I'm not even saying this is a bad thing as such. Thing is, I've only been back at church for a few months after years away and some things really stand out as odd in a way I'd never noticed before and this is one of them.
The thing about other Christians being our sisters and brothers is an interesting one for me. I know it's true on one level. I struggle to feel that level of connection with the people in the same pew as me never mind further afield. Also there's the issue of how do you know? Outside of the Orthodox and Roman Catholics most Christians don't claim to be able to say for sure who is a part of the Body of Christ. And even then many (most?) Catholics and Orthodox would not be prepared say that someone is definitely not. So many who appear to be my brothers and sisters aren't and many who don't are, and I'll never really know, so why not try to be as inclusive as possible?
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Late Paul:
So my question is, should we be more focussed on Christians when we pray for, give money or time in supporting these causes?
On money/time/support - no we should not necessarily be more focused on Christians.
In prayer - when I pray for persecuted Christians, it's that their faith remains strong and that God provides them comfort. Not that only the Christians will get the food aid and air evacuation while the Muslims and Hindus starve to death.
I think Christian absolutely should be praying specifically for our brothers and sisters facing hardship, particularly if that hardship is on account of the faith in the first place.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Christians are more likely to be the oppressors than the oppressed
What evidence do you have for this Jade?
Erm, the evidence that is Christianity being the dominant religion in the West - and I've made it clear that I'm only talking about the West, so thanks for misrepresenting me. Just like men being dominant as a gender = the oppression of women, Christianity being dominant as a religion = the oppression of other faiths. Sometimes even the oppression of other Christians. It is really not difficult to find evidence of Christianity being oppressive, it is practically promoted as Christian duty by Fox 'News'.
But apparently it's much more enjoyable pretending to be oppressed.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Christians are more likely to be the oppressors than the oppressed
What evidence do you have for this Jade?
Erm, the evidence that is Christianity being the dominant religion in the West - and I've made it clear that I'm only talking about the West, so thanks for misrepresenting me. Just like men being dominant as a gender = the oppression of women, Christianity being dominant as a religion = the oppression of other faiths. Sometimes even the oppression of other Christians. It is really not difficult to find evidence of Christianity being oppressive, it is practically promoted as Christian duty by Fox 'News'.
But apparently it's much more enjoyable pretending to be oppressed.
You seem to be mistaking "majority" for "dominant."
The first is true the second debateable and you still haven't provided any evidence to back up your claim other than the equivalent of "watch Fox News". I don't so perhaps you can enlighten me with a couple of examples?
As for misrepresenting you, I haven't and I'm not. I've simply asked for evidence to back up your claim.
I hardly think too that there is a correlative relationship between the way men oppress women and any inference that even in the west Christianity oppresses other faiths. The former does seem to be a particular theme in a number of your posts and you do appear, here, to be seeing other things through that same lens. It may not be a reading that others readily identify with.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
Speaking up as a sometimes-assisting minister who writes Prayers of the People, and in defense of same...it can be a very difficult task to, as one of my mentors says, compose prayers that everyone can in good conscience pray with you. There is also a temptation to turn the Prayers into either mini-sermons or teaching opportunities. And -- if you're praying extemporaneously, you can just mess up; not be exact in one's phraseology.
From my perspective as someone living in a small, non-cosmopolitan spot on the map where people really do not "think globally," sometimes the Prayers are so exclusively focused on family and friends that some of us fear that the people in the pew don't truly grasp the concept of their interconnectedness with the Body of Christ elsewhere in the world. And at least here in the States it's sometimes also hard to get people to understand that, first of all, there are Christian communities outside of Europe that have been there for centuries, that aren't mission plants started by benevolent white missionaries; and that even in countries that were Christianized by the stereotypical 19th century missionaries, the churches there are self-governing, run their own seminaries and other institutions and have their own missionary programs.
And when all of that is running through your head as you're praying aloud in front of a bunch of people, and wanting to communicate a concern about Christian communities around the world while still praying for the whole world and for all according to their needs...well, it may come out in a way that suggests exclusivity when it really doesn't.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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PaulBC
Shipmate
# 13712
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Posted
We should be praying for ALL peoples not just other Christians . Cause who is praying for the women looking after a sick child in India or a Syrian in a camp in Turkey, or an native Canadian on a reserve who's whater is contaminated here in Canada . We need tp be praying for all the a bove and anyone else we think of. And yes we need to act
to help these people . I believe the Anglican communion has means to do so but there are other organizatiobn , the Red Cross/Red Crescent, to name 2.
blessings all
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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
Posts: 873 | From: Victoria B.C. Canada | Registered: May 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
You seem to be mistaking "majority" for "dominant."
The first is true the second debateable and you still haven't provided any evidence to back up your claim other than the equivalent of "watch Fox News". I don't so perhaps you can enlighten me with a couple of examples?
One would be the Ten Commandments debacle in the American Southwest. In a country with an official separation of church and state there are Christian symbols on government properties.
Christianity is enshrined in the UK government.
Dominant? Blindingly so. Oppressive, more subtly.
Christmas is a good example. Despite Conservative twaddle, Christian Christmas is the dominant celebration in most of the West. Even Hanukkah is seen as an interloper, despite its source being older.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
The word I try hard to avoid in the Prayers is "especially." I find that very off-putting and theologically whiffy -- I mean, really, we're going to pray for everyone but ESPECIALLY for certain people?
I think it's most helpful to contain prayers for fellow Christians in the usual petition for the Church, and to not conflate prayers for the persecuted Church with prayers to ease other types of human suffering ...just keep those two things in two separate petitions.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
You seem to be mistaking "majority" for "dominant."
The first is true the second debateable and you still haven't provided any evidence to back up your claim other than the equivalent of "watch Fox News". I don't so perhaps you can enlighten me with a couple of examples?
One would be the Ten Commandments debacle in the American Southwest. In a country with an official separation of church and state there are Christian symbols on government properties.
nit-picky tangental correction: 10 commandments on government property (usually courthouses) is a feature found primarily in the American South, not Southwest. In the Southwest, a more common version of your quite valid point is crosses (predating federalization or often even statehood) found on federal or state parks.
*end tangent*
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
I think there are indeed instances where Christians psychologically/socially oppress others, including other Christians in the US -- I recall one case in the South where a non-Southern-Baptist Christian student felt badgered by the strongly SBC-dominated public high school, which flouted the separation-clause and wound up contacting the ACLU and initiating a lawsuit, and who in turn received death threats and other forms of harassment from some of the "good Christians" of that school district. But to me there's a difference between that sort of overt hatred and harassment and the general unhappiness/wounded entitlement of a majority group in society that now has to make provision for a minority. To me the "culture wars" in the US are a lot like, say, a school where a few children have violent, life-threatening allergies to peanuts, so the school bans all peanut products, home-baked shared treats, etc. on premises. Compassionate, thoughtful people should understand this and be able to make adjustments to what foods their kids take to school, so that everyone can be happy and healthy at school. But you will inevitably have whingeing and grumbling from some parents: "Back when I was in school you could eat whatever you wanted and no one ever fell down dead," "Damn gommint won't even let the kids have a bake sale," "Gee, I wish I had some special problem that made everyone have to cater to me," (oy gevult) etc. Because human beings are just...messed up.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
Because human beings are just...messed up.
my new tagline.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
A former pastor's reply comes to mind: "Whenever we try to draw a line between us and them, we will always find Christ standing on the other side."
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
A former pastor's reply comes to mind: "Whenever we try to draw a line between us and them, we will always find Christ standing on the other side."
Excellent. It reminds also of the line "let's put Christ back into Christian.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I had a superb conversation with two liberal-conservative Muslim colleagues at work today that I could not have with virtually ANY Christian from my current and past three charismatic-evangelical Anglican congregations.
Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?
How do I pray for my own when they are damnationists almost to a man?
How do I pray for my own when they are stabbing others in the eyes?
How do I pray for my own when it has been subverted by the empire it conquered?
I pray for myself that I find a way to include ALL. That I may be included.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
We have an intercessors' rota, so the prayers are many and varied, just as the people on the rota are many and varied. What matters to me, overall, is not so much the words they use - the detail of which sounds rather odd at times - but that they CARE. If the sense that they care for those for whom they pray for comes across, then I think God is able to overlook the imperfections of exactly how they express it.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
A former pastor's reply comes to mind: "Whenever we try to draw a line between us and them, we will always find Christ standing on the other side."
The trouble is, to those on our side who are suffering this stance looks as if we don't care.
And if we're okay about praying for Mrs Babb's operation, Sue and Jack's bereavement and Mr Johnson who's going through a 'difficult time', then it's not really true to say that we're not 'praying for our own'. We pray for our own when we say our church intercessions every week. I imagine that many church members would stop attending if 'praying for our own' were abolished in church.
IMO it shouldn't be an either/or situation.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
nit-picky tangental correction: 10 commandments on government property (usually courthouses) is a feature found primarily in the American South, not Southwest. In the Southwest, a more common version of your quite valid point is crosses (predating federalization or often even statehood) found on federal or state parks.
*end tangent*
Fair enough, but the whole thing is confusing. The "mid-west" is East of the middle, the Southwest includes Texas, yes? But it is closer to the middle and the southern half of Florida is not considered part of the "true" South.
The particular case I was thinking of is in Oklahoma. My mind associates Oklahoma with the southwest. Armadillos and prairie and such. Is this not accurate?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
My mother supports some organization that purportedly gives aid to persecuted Christians somehow, but from the literature she had them send me, it also looked like they use those Christians' suffering to try to get American Christians to be more "on fire for God" or whatever. They sold books and paraphernalia relating to that. It felt like they needed there to be persecuted Christians in the world, in order to help brand a particular kind of Christianity. It really bothered me.
Meanwhile, my mother had never even heard of Amnesty International.
It also bothers me that Christians would be only interested in the suffering of Christians, and not of everyone who suffers for the sake of their conscience - including those who suffer at the hands of Christians. So I agree with the OP.
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
It also bothers me that Christians would be only interested in the suffering of Christians, and not of everyone who suffers for the sake of their conscience - including those who suffer at the hands of Christians. So I agree with the OP.
If I were a Christian in the Middle East or Africa being violently persecuted for my faith, I would find this attitude from a Western Christian enjoying the ability to attend church without fear of a bomb attack, quite unhelpful to be honest.
No one has resources so limited that they can only help Christian organizations OR general organizations. It is not an either/or situation.
Why Christians would not be inspired to help those who are being killed for loving Jesus specifically, in addition to responding to other needs in the wider society - that I cannot understand.
Perhaps my perspective comes from the fact that I have Christian relatives living in Africa in a city where there have been 3 bomb attacks on churches in the past few years. They want to know that other Christians around the world are thinking about them.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
And if we're okay about praying for Mrs Babb's operation, Sue and Jack's bereavement and Mr Johnson who's going through a 'difficult time', then it's not really true to say that we're not 'praying for our own'. We pray for our own when we say our church intercessions every week. I imagine that many church members would stop attending if 'praying for our own' were abolished in church.
I'm not advocating abolishing anything.
But the thing about praying for Mrs Babb is there's a connection there. I'd pray for her because I know about her first of all, and I know about her because she's in my congregation. But I'd also be praying for the guy at work who's got a chronic illness. And I don't think anyone would imply I shouldn't do so because he's not a Christian.
I'm also more likely to pray for both of these people than people on the other side of the world. Which is why it's good that we have people bringing specific non-local situations in public intercession.
Yet when someone highlights a war-torn country, or an area afflicted with a natural disaster, or a place where any non-majority religious group is persecuted and say we should pray for the Christians there, it just makes me a little uncomfortable that's all.
quote:
IMO it shouldn't be an either/or situation.
Absolutely and I hope I haven't made it sound like I think it is.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Late Paul:
But the thing about praying for Mrs Babb is there's a connection there. I'd pray for her because I know about her first of all, and I know about her because she's in my congregation. But I'd also be praying for the guy at work who's got a chronic illness. And I don't think anyone would imply I shouldn't do so because he's not a Christian.
If your church intercessions include praying for everyone's work colleagues then yours is a very special church! And your intercessions must be very long!
The fact is that most church intercessions involve people known to the church, which means they're likely to be Christians. So from your point of view I suppose Christians already have an unfair advantage in church prayers!
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IMO it shouldn't be an either/or situation.
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Absolutely and I hope I haven't made it sound like I think it is.
Well yes you have, because you've implied that Christians shouldn't pray communally for other Christians unless those Christians are individually known to the church (Mrs Babb and co.). The implication is that the only other way to pray for Christians is in very general prayers for world peace or justice, etc.
As I say, to me this seems rather harsh. But I appreciate this thread because it's helped to explain why some churches (including those I'm most likely to attend) are reluctant to talk about the persecution of Christians, even though they'll rightly talk about other kinds of persecution. The next time I meet an Iraqi Christian (for example) who complains of this sort of thing I'll be able to explain the reasoning behind it.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Late Paul:
But the thing about praying for Mrs Babb is there's a connection there. I'd pray for her because I know about her first of all, and I know about her because she's in my congregation. But I'd also be praying for the guy at work who's got a chronic illness. And I don't think anyone would imply I shouldn't do so because he's not a Christian.
If your church intercessions include praying for everyone's work colleagues then yours is a very special church! And your intercessions must be very long!
That may be cultural then, because neither of the churches I attend is like yours in that way. Both have places for people to name whoever is on their mind and if they wish briefly why--"For Jenni's pregnancy"--for example and I would say non-church members come up at least as often as not. Probably more. I think intercessions are limited in length by the rules of politeness--no one wants to be a hog. In a larger church service I used to attend, there was felt to be a risk of taking too long, and the intercessions were reported ahead of time and put on a (tightly printed) sheet included with the bulletin. Then only the brand new ones needed to be listed aloud during the service.
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
Gwai
That's interesting. It's probably an age thing. In churches with lots of younger/ middle aged people prayers for colleagues are perhaps more common. Most British churches, especially MOTR ones, are attended by the middle aged/elderly, so such prayers are probably less likely.
If the youthful evangelical congregations already do lots of praying for non-Christian friends and colleagues then there shouldn't be problem if they also pray for specifically Christian issues sometimes.
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ExclamationMark
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# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jade Constable:
[qb] Christians are more likely to be the oppressors than the oppressed
What evidence do you have for this Jade?
Still no evidence - can I guess then that it doesn't exist?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Late Paul:
But the thing about praying for Mrs Babb is there's a connection there. I'd pray for her because I know about her first of all, and I know about her because she's in my congregation. But I'd also be praying for the guy at work who's got a chronic illness. And I don't think anyone would imply I shouldn't do so because he's not a Christian.
If your church intercessions include praying for everyone's work colleagues then yours is a very special church! And your intercessions must be very long!
In this context the "I would pray" was just that, me personally praying, not the church. I was trying to talk about the connection thing. So in church in public intercession we pray for things where there's a common connection. But my point about my work colleague was that were I to bring it up in home group, or just in conversation, no-one would think it odd or wrong for me to pray for him. I was trying to give an example of where there's a similar level of connection, people we personally know and a similar situation of need but where one person happens to be a Christian and one not. Praying for Mrs Babb is more like praying for Bob at work than it is like praying for someone I've never met. And praying for someone I've never met is fine too but there are those who seem to want me to feel as if Christians I've never met are to me what my blood family is, or at least what Bob or Mrs Babb is and that's why we should think of them first.
Anyway in terms of how long the interessions take etc the way it seems to work in my current church is that the prayers from the front usually are very general, and specific requests (Mrs Babb etc) are in a section of the notice sheet. Occasionally the person leading will leave a silence for people to pray specifically e.g. "pray for someone you know who is suffering" etc.
quote:
quote:
IMO it shouldn't be an either/or situation.
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Absolutely and I hope I haven't made it sound like I think it is.
Well yes you have, because you've implied that Christians shouldn't pray communally for other Christians unless those Christians are individually known to the church (Mrs Babb and co.). The implication is that the only other way to pray for Christians is in very general prayers for world peace or justice, etc.
It wasn't my intent to imply that. I've said a couple of times that I don't want to stop any particular type of prayer just that the way it was phrased made me uncomfortable. Imagine someone described the situation in Syria and then said, "pray for the Christians there" rather than just "pray for all those suffering there".
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As I say, to me this seems rather harsh.
I can see how it would if that were what I'm saying but I'm really not.
quote:
But I appreciate this thread because it's helped to explain why some churches (including those I'm most likely to attend) are reluctant to talk about the persecution of Christians, even though they'll rightly talk about other kinds of persecution. The next time I meet an Iraqi Christian (for example) who complains of this sort of thing I'll be able to explain the reasoning behind it.
Please don't. At least not on account of what I've said. I am not any kind of representative of anything but my own thoughts. The reasons I started this thread were to explore my feelings of discomfort not because I have reached a definitive view.
Also I think if this had been just about persecution I think it wouldn't have bothered me so much. There was a long laundry list of all the things that are happening to Christians in various parts of the world, most of which weren't to do with being Christian but were to being in an unfortunate situation. And my honest, gut reaction was, "most of those are happening to anyone in that particular place".
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
What can I pray for 'our own' who have stabbed 'them' in the eyes?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
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Posted
quote:
Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard: What can I pray for 'our own' who have stabbed 'them' in the eyes?
For them to see the error of their ways?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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S. Bacchus
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# 17778
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Posted
On the 22nd of April 2013, armed men stopped a car carrying Metropolitan Paul and Metropolitan Gregorios Yohanna Ibrahim, respectively the Greek and Syriac Archbishops of Aleppo. The deacon driving their car was shot on the spot. The two Archbishops are still in captivity. They were traveling together to attempt to negotiate the release of a Roman Catholic priest.
Although I pray for peace in Syria and throughout the world generally, I pray for Metropolitan Paul and Metropolitan Gregorios in particular.
I do this for several reasons. Firstly, I was asked to pray for them by a local Russian Orthodox priest. Secondly, a study of scripture and of church history requires me to be mindful of others who have been prisoners for Christ Jesus, from the Apostle Paul to Martin Luther King (whose birthday we have so recently remembered). Thirdly, although I am prepared to accept that the entire human race is my family, I recognize within it certain bonds closer than others, so that I feel a closer bond to my mother and my father than I do with people I have never met (in this, I follow the Stoics, as well as what I suspect to be normal human practice). Of these bonds within humanity, I recognize that that with my fellow Christians is strong through our common baptism in Christ Jesus.
As C.S. Lewis wrote quote:
Next to the Blessed Sacrament itself, your neighbor is the holiest object presented to your senses. If he is your Christian neighbour, he is holy in almost the same way, for in him also Christ vere latitat, the glorifier and the glorified, Glory Himself, is truly hidden.
We see, then, that all people are holy and worthy of our prayers because they are made in the image of God. But we are called to pray for our Christian neighbours especially because they carry the image of Christ not only by being born in the image of God, but also by dying and rising to life again with Christ in baptism. There is a unity to all baptized Christians that makes us one family under the fatherhood of God.
I see no in praying both for the welfare of all Syrians and for that of Metropolitan Paul and Metropolitan Gregorios specifically. How could I? It is to me no different than the principle of praying (as I do at every mass) for the leaders of all nations, and especially for our Queen, or the for repose of all the faithful departed and especially my grandparents.
The Book of Common Prayer explicitly allows that we may, and should, pray both 'or all sorts and conditions of men' AND ALSO that we should pray 'especially those for whom our prayers are desired'. It's not a question of either or.
Praying for our Christian brothers and sisters is no more an act of hatred against non-Christians than praying for our families is an act of hatred against those to whom we happen not to be related.
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'It's not that simple. I won't have it to be that simple'.
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Cathscats
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# 17827
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Posted
Forgiveness. (This was in reply to the "what can I pray.." Two posts up.)
[ 21. January 2014, 21:21: Message edited by: Cathscats ]
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"...damp hands and theological doubts - the two always seem to go together..." (O. Douglas, "The Setons")
Posts: 176 | From: Central Highlands | Registered: Sep 2013
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Oh that's all assured. But by what Christian agency? If any.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Late Paul
I focused on communal prayer in my response because that's what you referred to in the OP. In private prayer we can pray for whoever and whatever we like, certainly.
I also assumed that the communal prayers of intercession mentioned in the OP were about Christians experiencing persecution. Christians in Syria are certainly suffering from many of the same problems as other Syrians, and they don't need separate prayers for that. However, it's likely that they'll also be experiencing additional problems; the breakdown of law and order in the Middle East seems to attract Islamist groups, one of whose goals is to terrorise Christians and to prevent Christian worship. For this I think we might mention Christians in our communal prayers along with our more general prayers for Syria.
This is how I see it. Of course, not everyone leading or preparing the intercessions is very well-informed about Christian persecution - but perhaps they could pray for local Christians to participate in the journey towards peace, to be compassionate and forgiving representatives of Christ, etc. Again, this could be part of the prayers for Syrian peacemakers in general.
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Us vs. them is happening right here.
There are those of us who haven't the faintest idea what to DO for others near let alone far. Apart from seek - in prayer AND conversation - to be used to encourage, to develop relationships.
My personal experience is that it is virtually impossible in any coherent, measurable way. That all hopes let alone expectations come to nothing when working with the marginal. Haemorrhage time and money. Which is no excuse for not turning up, for not reaching out. Keep seeking to DO well. And some DOING might come of it.
Praying rawly, honestly with them is better than nothing. Similarly praying rawly for remote alien Christians. Admitting that we haven't the faintest idea.
And those that believe that anything can be done for Iraqi Christians. Giving a few quid to the astounding Vicar of Baghdad can't hurt. The man that asked sectarians to stop killing Christians and they did.
More workers for the harvest like him. To go to the CAR and teach Christians how to be Christian. Yes. We need that here first and foremost, to put our own house in order, to pursue justice and mercy and peace here radically. Truly. That would help.
Anybody anywhere doing anything effective that I can add anything to?
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Love wins
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