Ship of Fools: What is heaven/life after death like?

Thread: What is heaven/life after death like? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Jammy Dodger (# 17872) on :

Ahoy shipmates!

I'm interested in what you all think about what "life after death" or heaven is like?

Do we...
A) get to play harps whilst floating around on clouds having got past St. Peter at the pearly gates?
B) enjoy our resurrected/glorified bodies on the New Earth
C) who knows - it's a mystery!
D) none of the above - Please specify

Please note for the purposes of this thread I'm not really interested in the nature or existence (or not) of hell nor what the criteria for "getting into heaven" may or may not be. On the assumption you get there what will it be like?

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

I would say that heaven is just like this world, only better.

I love the concept of heaven that you find in popular books like "Proof of Heaven" by Eban Alexander.

Similarly, I look forward to an upcoming movie that presents it the way that I think it is, called, "Heaven is For Real".

I think that most people have this kind of intuitive understanding that this is what will happen to them after they die.

Posted by hatless (# 3365) on :

You wake up in splendid health in a beautiful meadow, surrounded by truly epic flowers and your deeply loved relatives and friends (at least the dead ones), the most beautiful birds and gentle deer that approach without fear. The drink and the food are the best you have ever tasted, the fruit is amazing, and the soft-boiled eggs are to die for.

You fret a bit about your surviving relatives who continue to make a mess of their lives (you can see them when you look over the edge), but you are easily distracted by the sublime music and the gorgeous landscape. There are tiny jewel like flowers in the short turf you walk upon. It's totally heavenly.

Posted by Ronald Binge (# 9002) on :

We perceive in five dimensions so I imagine that infinity is impossible to comprehend as we are now. Think of a child's crayon drawing of a vast landscape. Infinitely better in reality.

Posted by Aravis (# 13824) on :

So it's simple wish fulfilment, in other words? And heavily based on C S Lewis's "The Last Battle", rather than on the revelations of St John.

Personally I rather like CSL's heaven, but I don't know if that's a valid reason to believe that life after death is anything like that.

Posted by PaulBC (# 13712) on :

I would agree that to know what life after death is like is a mystery. I tend to lean towards Lewis's description in Lat Battle
but also I thionk that we are all young again all our loved ones are at hand and all the rot of this life is gone.

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

I'll go for c it's a mystery. All images are from the human imagination and are soon discredited, eg if you are with those you love, they can surely only be with you if they love you too, and what about other people they love but who you don't know, etc. A friend wondered how far back the ancestors would go - to 'Ug!'?

I do believe it will be filled with God's love, and that's good enough for me.

When reading about nde's the extraordinary dimensions, and bodies people will have which can move through walls etc show us how much we can't possibly imagine as it's outside our scope. It's fascinating if true that we'll be able to read the minds of the people who are still living in the world. Jesus said it was important to get our thoughts as well as our actions in line with God's will.

Posted by The5thMary (# 12953) on :

Raptor Eye: Please tell me that the dead CAN'T hear our thoughts!! I thought that was limited to God. Maybe my guardian angel can, I wouldn't put it past her but our relatives?! I don't want anyone in my head except God and the aforementioned angel. And even then... I do have some rather 'R-rated' thoughts sometimes. [Ultra confused]

Posted by que sais-je (# 17185) on :

A leaflet through the door said "You could spend eternity with your family" - if given the option I shall politely refuse.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

It's a walk with a talk for as long as it takes for everyone for a start.

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :

quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
You wake up in splendid health in a beautiful meadow, surrounded by truly epic flowers and your deeply loved relatives and friends (at least the dead ones), the most beautiful birds and gentle deer that approach without fear. The drink and the food are the best you have ever tasted, the fruit is amazing, and the soft-boiled eggs are to die for.

You fret a bit about your surviving relatives who continue to make a mess of their lives (you can see them when you look over the edge), but you are easily distracted by the sublime music and the gorgeous landscape. There are tiny jewel like flowers in the short turf you walk upon. It's totally heavenly.

This sounds like Ted Dekker's description of the Garden of Eden in the Circle series of books.

I don't think it's like that, or indeed any kind of reality-based view. I personally think we spiritually fuse in some way, with God, and experience incredible, immeasurable joy and love for eternity. Or something.

Posted by Nicodemia (# 4756) on :

I'm extremely glad that I, and no one else either, actually knows what the afterlife is like, or even if there really is one.

Then I can't be wrong, and if there isn't anything, then I won't know about that, either.

And yes, I'm a depressed cynic. [Frown]

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

I can't help but insert this hilarious clip from "The Invention of Lying."

The irony to me is that he is telling his mother the exact truth, whether he knows it or not - and that this is also what the average person really does believe anyway.

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

Maybe "hilarious" isn't the right word. [Hot and Hormonal]

Posted by Higgs Bosun (# 16582) on :

"What's heaven like?" always reminds me of "Not Only But Also" when Pete and Dud, wearing their raincoats and caps, but with wings on, are in heaven.

Dud: "Pete, what do we eat in heaven?"
Pete: "We eat ambrosia, Dud"
Dud: "Eeerrgh!"

(Ambrosia was a trade name at the time for a tinned 'creamed rice pudding')

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nicodemia:
I'm extremely glad that I, and no one else either, actually knows what the afterlife is like, or even if there really is one.

Wouldn't the more logical conclusion from that line of thought be that you don't know whether anyone knows or not? [Confused]

The premise of most world religions, including Christianity, is that some people DO know. Without a concept of divine revelation, religion is nothing but speculation and wishful thinking.

Posted by hatless (# 3365) on :

deano said

quote:
This sounds like Ted Dekker's description of the Garden of Eden in the Circle series of books.

Does it? I just made it up.

Posted by Jammy Dodger (# 17872) on :

Thanks everyone. It seems the general consensus is "we don't know but it will be wonderful".

The reason for asking was I've been reading Tom Wright's book Surprised by Hope in which he argues that the "orthodox" (small-o) Christian hope is of resurrection. Therefore live after death is a two stage process of being with Christ in Paradise until the "last day" and the resurrection of the dead when our "eternal home" is actually a resurrected life on the New Earth (Rev 21).

So I was interested as to what the spectrum of opinion was out there (as a spectrum of belief is what I know I can rely on the Ship for [Smile]

)

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jammy Dodger:
the "orthodox" (small-o) Christian hope is of resurrection. Therefore life after death is a two stage process of being with Christ in Paradise until the "last day" and the resurrection of the dead when our "eternal home" is actually a resurrected life on the New Earth (Rev 21).

I think that many Christians would be surprised to know that this is the orthodox view.

I was especially surprised when I learned that the orthodox view is that people wake up in heaven after they die, spend a long time there with Christ, and then return to Earth after the Last Judgment.

It isn't an idea that gets much press.

I think the more common idea is an either/or.

People either think of it in terms of lying in the earth "asleep" until the day of the Last Judgment, when they will arise bodily and live forever on a new earth.

Or they think that they will die and go to heaven (or hell).

I think that most Christian denominations officially subscribe to the former.

I think that opinion polls indicate that the latter is the more common belief among the general population, at least in the USA.

And I think that theologians typically don't believe either one. Instead they say that there is no basis for being certain about it and that our focus should be life in this world.

Do you agree?

Posted by hatless (# 3365) on :

Yes, I think you're spot on, Freddy. And I think the popular view of an idyllic, flowery, dead loved-ones filled afterlife owes more to late 19thC Spiritualism than anything else.

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jammy Dodger:
Ahoy shipmates!

I'm interested in what you all think about what "life after death" or heaven is like?

Do we...
A) get to play harps whilst floating around on clouds having got past St. Peter at the pearly gates?
B) enjoy our resurrected/glorified bodies on the New Earth
C) who knows - it's a mystery!
D) none of the above - Please specify

A and B with lots of C intermixed.

Posted by Jammy Dodger (# 17872) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:

quote:
Originally posted by Jammy Dodger:
the "orthodox" (small-o) Christian hope is of resurrection. Therefore life after death is a two stage process of being with Christ in Paradise until the "last day" and the resurrection of the dead when our "eternal home" is actually a resurrected life on the New Earth (Rev 21).
I think that many Christians would be surprised to know that this is the orthodox view.

I was especially surprised when I learned that the orthodox view is that people wake up in heaven after they die, spend a long time there with Christ, and then return to Earth after the Last Judgment.

It isn't an idea that gets much press.

I think the more common idea is an either/or.

People either think of it in terms of lying in the earth "asleep" until the day of the Last Judgment, when they will arise bodily and live forever on a new earth.

Or they think that they will die and go to heaven (or hell).

I think that most Christian denominations officially subscribe to the former.

I think that opinion polls indicate that the latter is the more common belief among the general population, at least in the USA.

And I think that theologians typically don't believe either one. Instead they say that there is no basis for being certain about it and that our focus should be life in this world.

Do you agree?

Hi Freddy. First thing to say is that this is what Tom Wright claimed was the orthodox Christian view - I'm not claiming that!

My personal view was always your first option. That for those dying they "wake up" (instantaneously from their perspective, but having been asleep from ours) at the resurrection - and eternity is then as you say on the new earth.

I can also see that many would interpret "resurrection" in a spiritual fashion to mean that we are "resurrected" to new life in heaven immediately after we die and that this is eternal. I think this is the most commonly held view and the view that most people believe to be the "Christian" view.

Anyway I agree the important thing is what we do in this life and leave the next to God's grace and love. (Actually that is also one of Tom Wright's points IIRC). So I'm re-reading the book to try to understand his schema better.

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :

Heaven by Dr Paula Gooder is a good new scholarly book out on the topic. Very biblical.

I believe she was a student of Tom Wright and shares many of his views.

Posted by Jammy Dodger (# 17872) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Heaven by Dr Paula Gooder is a good new scholarly book out on the topic. Very biblical.

I believe she was a student of Tom Wright and shares many of his views.

Thanks Evensong.

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jammy Dodger:
First thing to say is that this is what Tom Wright claimed was the orthodox Christian view - I'm not claiming that!

Sorry, I did not mean to suggest that. You were clear.

Posted by que sais-je (# 17185) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nicodemia:
And yes, I'm a depressed cynic.

You take beautiful photos though.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

We just keep on walking and talking until we're all deconstructed, healed, restituted, compensated, reconciled. And continue from there.

Watch the sublime Tree Of Life. Brad Pitt's finest film. And Sean Penn's. The end of that is the start. As it is in the original Solaris.

Posted by HCH (# 14313) on :

I think this is one of the classic difficult topics. Most short, snappy descriptions of Heaven simply sound boring.

The two best descriptions of Heaven I have found were in TV shows. In a series called "WKRP", a character who was a DJ envisioned Heaven as an endless jam session including the best musical performers in history.

In the "Buffy" series, the title character at one point dies and is brought back to life. She describes her experience as:

"Wherever I was, I was happy. At peace. I knew that everyone I cared about was all right. I knew it. Time didn't mean anything, nothing had form, but I was still me, you know? And I was warm and I was loved and I was finished. Complete. I don't understand about theology or dimensions, or any of it really. But I think I was in heaven."

Posted by Jammy Dodger (# 17872) on :

quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
I think this is one of the classic difficult topics. Most short, snappy descriptions of Heaven simply sound boring.

So true. And as Freddy commented upthread the whole subject doesn't get much press. Maybe because culturally death is a pretty taboo topic full stop and that therefore inhibits conversation about what comes after....

Posted by alienfromzog (# 5327) on :

I feel the need at this point to refer to St Adrian of Plass's wonderful poem When I'm in Heaven.

It has two wonderful qualities. Firstly my mother asked to have it read at her funeral - it gave her hope and comfort when dying from cancer and secondly, unlike every sermon I've ever heard on heaven, it doesn't make me not want to go.

Moreover I think Plass is his imagery captures something of the biblical truth. At home with God. I love the notion of God sitting in a field and chewing a straw to 'fill us in on how things really are' note that the field in question is full of sunshine and friends.

Of one thing I am sure, the very narrow views of heaven are way-off. How would a God who we can see is sooooooooooo creative make a home for us that's not full of his creativity?

And for me, who often struggles with the darker side of my mind - when the Black Dog won't leave me alone - the idea of heaven is often cold comfort for anything going on forever is extremely unappealing when all I want to do is sit in a corner and stop existing - for me Plass also calls on a great promise of heaven: "Tell me they'll be peace at last."

And we know that the peace of God surpasses understanding.

AFZ

Posted by shadeson (# 17132) on :

Jammy Dodger

quote:
I'm interested in what you all think about what "life after death" or heaven is like?

I think that there is a profound point that has not been mentioned.

Heaven is the Kingdom of God. Since there is no evil in that place, we no nonger have 'free will'.

That is not to say, no choices, but any desire to oppose God is frustrated.

Its a very interesting thought to meditate on. I guess most would say now that they are happy to do what God wants?

There is also the question of how much of our life here, will be remembered. For those who have suffered horribly - how could the memory be erased?

It is said that time is a great healer - and there will be no lack of that. Even so, my Mother in her extreme old age, was bitter about the lack of love toward her in her childhood (a combination of Victorian attitudes and an unwanted pregnancy).

I tend towards being a universalist regarding heaven, because final justice is something no one can explain to me.

The only answer seems to be that we may be literally 'born again' and our past told to us by a loving God. Some will be bitterly ashamed, some will be very angry at not being able to do want they want. Anyway, the idea of heaven being filled with children appeals to me.

I also believe St.Paul was right about a re-created universe. Our bodies an souls are made for the world we live in. How things will change in detail is beyond any ones idea.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

Hence the need for a long walk with a long talk with stops in the meadow to lie down and chew grass.

If our complete transformation - with editing of memories?! - is instantaneous, then there is no point in a mortal life of suffering now. We could have gone straight to 'Go'.

That's what judgement 'day' is for. Our walk to Emmaus-Damascus.

Posted by HCH (# 14313) on :

Shadeson raises an interesting point. If I find myself in Heaven but I no longer have free will, then I will have lost an essential part of my identity and will no longer be quite the same person. In that case, I will in some sense have truly died.

I think that a way to resolve this is that in Heaven, time may no longer have meaning: we will be and not do.

Of course, the real problem here is the scarcity of empirical data.

Posted by Arminian (# 16607) on :

There are a few things in the Bible about it. God will wipe away every tear, no one will be disappointed. It will be paradise.

The NDE accounts from Christians I've seen suggest that they saw a city, very vivid colours more so than earth, music, relatives. It seems to have more dimensions.

Revelation tells of a new heaven and a new earth. Maybe believers get to visit the old heaven, the new heaven and the new earth ?

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

Believers in what? I certainly don't want to go anywhere where belief is the price of entry. That would be hell.

Posted by The5thMary (# 12953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
We just keep on walking and talking until we're all deconstructed, healed, restituted, compensated, reconciled. And continue from there.

Watch the sublime Tree Of Life. Brad Pitt's finest film. And Sean Penn's. The end of that is the start. As it is in the original Solaris.

I cried my eyes out when I watched Tree Of Life. I felt as if God was speaking to me, personally, as I watched this incredibly symbolic movie. I'm so glad my wife and other roommate weren't home when I was sobbing and sobbing--how could I have explained the spiritual cosmic mind blowing that was taking place?

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

He was.

I want to watch it every year now.

The second time was better than the first. Grace and nature. Women and men. God and man. Fathers and sons.

You MUST get to see the Soviet Solaris. NOT the Soderbergh remake.

How are yer teeth?

[ 26. January 2014, 21:19: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]

Posted by Jammy Dodger (# 17872) on :

An interesting point Shadeson. But I'm afraid I've learnt to steer well clear of the subject of free will on these forums so I'll just stick with "I don't know how that will work out" but I happy to take Jesus word for it "that if the Son will set you free you will be free indeed". I can only see that being even better in our resurrected life.

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

I rarely hear a description of heaven that doesn't leave me shuddering with horror. Surely anything imaginable, extrapolated through unending time, would leave anyone screaming for the release of final death sooner or later.

Posted by hatless (# 3365) on :

Life after death has to start now, or I won't be here to enjoy it.

Posted by The5thMary (# 12953) on :

Martin: I sent you a private message about my teeth situation. [Big Grin]

Posted by The5thMary (# 12953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I rarely hear a description of heaven that doesn't leave me shuddering with horror. Surely anything imaginable, extrapolated through unending time, would leave anyone screaming for the release of final death sooner or later.

For Heaven to be heavenly, I think that our concept of time will have to be adjusted. I saw this thing once... not a prayer but a saying... God talking about how He is not a God of yesterday or a God of tomorrow but the God of Now. I have also experienced that deep shuddering, screaming horror of trying to imagine an eternity--world without end--on and on and on... ugh, it's awful! But what I'm imagining is limited by my mortal self. I think life with God is going to be experienced as one constant Now. We just can't wrap our minds around this concept because we are mortals, living with a past, a present, and a future. So, don't go off the deep end just yet! I truly do believe it will all be okay. More than okay, in fact.

Posted by the Pookah (# 9186) on :

Hmm, wow, kinda shocks me the repulsion to 'heaven' from my Buddhist pov (I'm a believer not a typical Western atheist Buddhist.) You undergo reincarnation or if you practice hard enough and make vows you get born in a pure land presided over by a buddha.

I pray to be born in Kwan Yin's pure land of Mt. Potalaka and yes it's beautiful, perfect, etc just like those 19th century spiritualists described. So I get born there but I'm still me at my level (ha! probably low) of spiritual attainment and then in that ideal situation with great teachers to help I practice (for eons) until I become a Buddha. Swell! sounds great to me. I know others who want to come back (it's faster if you practice in Samsara) but not me...I had a good birth and I'm not chancing anything.

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by the Pookah:
Hmm, wow, kinda shocks me the repulsion to 'heaven' from my Buddhist pov (I'm a believer not a typical Western atheist Buddhist.)

I'm not sure that I understand what you are saying here.

Are you shocked at your own repulsion to the idea of heaven? Or are you shocked by our attitudes on the Ship?

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The5thMary:
I think life with God is going to be experienced as one constant Now. We just can't wrap our minds around this concept because we are mortals, living with a past, a present, and a future. So, don't go off the deep end just yet! I truly do believe it will all be okay. More than okay, in fact.

Yes - I am not being trivial when I say look at a dog enjoying a walk. They are not thinking of the past or future, they are simply and thoroughly enjoying the NOW!

In heaven we'll all be more like dogs [Smile]

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
In heaven we'll all be more like dogs

That's my view also.

Posted by Eirenist (# 13343) on :

We can have no conception of trans-death existence. Assuming that we will still exist as individuals, we will each have our ownunique perception of the glory of God. Perhaps we will be able to share those perception with each other.

Posted by Eirenist (# 13343) on :

Sorry for bad typing.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
In heaven we'll all be more like dogs
That's my view also.

But it says "outside are the dogs"...
[Confused]

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
In heaven we'll all be more like dogs
That's my view also.
But it says "outside are the dogs"...

Heh-heh. Woof-woof.

Biblical dogs can be good or bad. I plan to be a good dog. [Paranoid]

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

What if life after death isn't? i.e., it is 'fade to black', the electricity is off and there is no further conscious awareness. What if?

I frankly think that it makes little difference to faith because we don't know, can't know. I am good with the future taking care of itself, but it seems for many people that the idea of life after death not being life but nothing and also not knowing is troubling.

Posted by shadeson (# 17132) on :

HCH

quote:
If I find myself in Heaven but I no longer have free will, then I will have lost an essential part of my identity and will no longer be quite the same person.

What I am trying to comvey (and badly perhaps) is that in the Kingdom of Heaven you no longer have the choice of opposing the will of God, which we have in this world. If this means you have lost part of your personality then it seems that what Jesus was trying to teach, regarding the Kingdom of Heaven, is a failure and Eve got it right. We can only be happy with the freedom to do wrong.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
What if life after death isn't? i.e., it is 'fade to black', the electricity is off and there is no further conscious awareness. What if?

It would take all the pressure off this life. No need to stress about getting it right, no need to fear the eternal fires that wait for those who fail. Just the freedom to get on with living as well as you can, however you want to define that.

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

quote:
Originally posted by shadeson:
What I am trying to comvey (and badly perhaps) is that in the Kingdom of Heaven you no longer have the choice of opposing the will of God, which we have in this world. If this means you have lost part of your personality then it seems that what Jesus was trying to teach, regarding the Kingdom of Heaven, is a failure and Eve got it right. We can only be happy with the freedom to do wrong.

I don't know why this must be so. In fact, I don't think it is. If it were, there would be no point to this life, in which we find out what it means to go against the will of God, and learn to recognise the true value of God's will to the extent that we desire to align ourselves to it.

If those who live in love live in God, the kingdom of God is superimposed upon the world now and is seen wherever love is seen in action. This ties in with the idea that Christ is our King. We therefore already have free will while living within the kingdom.

[code]

[ 28. January 2014, 05:04: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

So God isn't happy.

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:

quote:
Originally posted by shadeson:
What I am trying to comvey (and badly perhaps) is that in the Kingdom of Heaven you no longer have the choice of opposing the will of God, which we have in this world.
I don't know why this must be so. In fact, I don't think it is. If it were, there would be no point to this life, in which we find out what it means to go against the will of God, and learn to recognise the true value of God's will to the extent that we desire to align ourselves to it.

I agree.

I think that it can be compared with our freedom in this world to oppose the laws of nature.

We are all perfectly free to challenge nature's laws, or to accept them and work within their constraints. Most people see the wisdom of accepting the laws of nature. Most people realize that they are not really free until they understand how these laws work and learn to abide by them.

Without knowing how to work within nature's laws we couldn't fly or build things, nor would we have anything to eat. Of course at any point we can return to challenging those laws. We are perfectly free to do it. But why would we?

The same is true of the spiritual freedom that God gives us. In this world, where life is unclear, we are free to doubt or believe and to choose our own path. In the next life the reality and concreteness of spiritual laws are much more apparent.

Having learned to do the spiritual equivalent of flying and building we realize that accepting these spiritual laws is the key to true freedom. We are still free to return to challenging them, but why would we?

Posted by hatless (# 3365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
What if life after death isn't? i.e., it is 'fade to black', the electricity is off and there is no further conscious awareness. What if?
It would take all the pressure off this life. No need to stress about getting it right, no need to fear the eternal fires that wait for those who fail. Just the freedom to get on with living as well as you can, however you want to define that.

I can see that you would lose the fear of eternal fires - if anyone really believes in that anyway - but I would have thought the main change would be that now 'this is it.' One life, no afterwards, nowhere outside this from which things might look better one day. It puts the pressure on, because this is not a dress rehearsal, it's your one and only life.

Incidentally, I get fade to black every night. It's lovely.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
What if life after death isn't? i.e., it is 'fade to black', the electricity is off and there is no further conscious awareness. What if?

I frankly think that it makes little difference to faith because we don't know, can't know. I am good with the future taking care of itself, but it seems for many people that the idea of life after death not being life but nothing and also not knowing is troubling.

I've heard it said that modern Western Christians are mostly assured of decent lives in the here and now, and can therefore do without any kind of psychological recompense in the form of heaven. But for people whose earthly lives are much more of a daily struggle, heaven is perhaps a more vivid, meaningful concept.

This is very crudely put - you obviously don't have to be poor to 'believe in heaven' - but I think there must be some truth in it.

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I frankly think that it makes little difference to faith because we don't know, can't know.

I don't think that we can truly say "don't know, can't know."

How do you know whether we can know or not?

Better to say that we may or may not be able to know about the life after death.

If our opinion is that we can't know, then we logically also can't know whether that opinion is correct. [Biased]

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I frankly think that it makes little difference to faith because we don't know, can't know.
I don't think that we can truly say "don't know, can't know."

How do you know whether we can know or not?

Better to say that we may or may not be able to know about the life after death.

If our opinion is that we can't know, then we logically also can't know whether that opinion is correct.

Point taken. I am reacting against the surety that some folks, not just on the ship, have. What ever it is, after death, it'll be okay and fine, because it will inevitably be, and that's just the way it is.

Posted by HCH (# 14313) on :

I like no prophet's last comment. Whatever awaits us after death is up to God (I think many people will agree with that) and God can be trusted (I think nearly as many people will agree again).

Posted by Jammy Dodger (# 17872) on :

quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
I like no prophet's last comment. Whatever awaits us after death is up to God (I think many people will agree with that) and God can be trusted (I think nearly as many people will agree again).

That is a good summary of the general consensus.

However, I do think there are hints in the NT of this same tension between "well we can't really know" but "God can be trusted, and he's great so heaven must be too".
So for example, in 1 Cor 15 Paul is struggling to convey what resurrection means for us but I like the analogy that he uses of a seed and a plant. The analogy is basically that what is sown (our mortal bodies) die in the ground but then are raised immortal and far more wonderful than we can comprehend. In just the way that you can't look at a seed and (without knowing what seed it is) imagine what the flower will look like. There's no correlation between what the seed looks like and what the flower looks like. Yet - there is a kind of continuity. The flower comes from the seed (obvious we know it shares the same DNA). So our resurrected life will have a connection to this life but also will be entirely different.
Also the passage in Rev 21 has a similar feel - how can we possibly imagine what a New Earth would be like (where there is no more sickness or death or crying or pain) and yet if it is anything like this Earth then what wouldn't the things that make this world wonderful (like the awesome creativity of God on display in the natural world) also be present in some way.
So I still feel like the answer is "we can't really know but there is no reason to think it is the awful boredom of floating on clouds twanging harps for all eternity - or a never-ending church service......

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jammy Dodger:

quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
I like no prophet's last comment. Whatever awaits us after death is up to God (I think many people will agree with that) and God can be trusted (I think nearly as many people will agree again).
That is a good summary of the general consensus.

Agreed.

But it is a frustrating consensus to my way of thinking.

I think that we can know what awaits us after death and that it is important for us to know so that we can be prepared.

Swedenborg writes:

quote:
What more ought anyone to have at heart than his life which lasts for ever? If he destroys his soul during his lifetime, does he not destroy it for ever?

I think that if people understood how eternal life works they would have a better understanding of what is important in this life as well, and what makes for a happy life here.

Instead people are ignorant about heaven, and this ignorance causes needless pain and suffering.

That is my opinion as a Swedenborgian. [Biased]

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

I get the sense that the lack of knowledge about it is probably essential, so that we live now in manner of our free choosing, without considering that it might ensure our passage on that great railway* to whatever destination it really gets to.

*who is to say it ain't a railway, or a bus (CS Lewis - The Great Divorce), or a boat ride. But I'm personally wanting a space ship.

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I get the sense that the lack of knowledge about it is probably essential, so that we live now in manner of our free choosing,

Yes, I think that is what is going on. It is essential that we be free to think and believe what we want to think and believe.

Posted by Garasu (# 17152) on :

Why though? Isn't it better to think and believe what is true?

What is gained by believing something false just because you want to believe it?

Posted by Jammy Dodger (# 17872) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:

quote:
Originally posted by Jammy Dodger:

quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
I like no prophet's last comment. Whatever awaits us after death is up to God (I think many people will agree with that) and God can be trusted (I think nearly as many people will agree again).
That is a good summary of the general consensus.
Agreed.

But it is a frustrating consensus to my way of thinking.

I think that we can know what awaits us after death and that it is important for us to know so that we can be prepared.

Do say more Freddy! What do you think we can know?

Posted by hatless (# 3365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
Why though? Isn't it better to think and believe what is true?

What is gained by believing something false just because you want to believe it?

It's because the journey is the destination. It's not right belief or even faith that counts, it's the struggle to have faith and to make sense of life's choices that matters. And that's why heaven is entirely about this life. It's just a funny way of talking about it, dressed up as if it was about some time in the future, and a place somewhere else.

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
Why though? Isn't it better to think and believe what is true?

What is gained by believing something false just because you want to believe it?

Sorry. Of course you are right.

I meant that it is important that we be free to believe what we believe to be true.

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jammy Dodger:

quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
I think that we can know what awaits us after death and that it is important for us to know so that we can be prepared.
Do say more Freddy! What do you think we can know?

As I said, as a Swedenborgian I believe Swedenborg's account of what heaven is like. I see it as absolutely certain knowledge.

Others might believe other descriptions from other sources.

The truth is that many people have made claims to know or have seen what it is like in the heavens - both in the Bible and elsewhere. They are possibly all untrue. Or maybe some are true.

Since there is no way to prove or disprove these descriptions they are believed or disbelieved by individuals according to their own free will.

Posted by the Pookah (# 9186) on :

Sorry to be obscure Freddy, I mean I was shocked at some Christians dislike of heaven. Maybe because they have a very fixed static view like chanting 'Hosanna' for eternity, certainly not anything like Swedenbord or the Spiritualists.

But I don't see any of them (except you I think) seeing heaven as a place to progress spiritually or even thinking about it that way. The spiritualists and even Buddhists would say you have free will in heaven/pure lands you can either lie around enjoying yourself imagining yourself eating rich foods, all kinds of worldly pleasures or you can devote yourself to spiritual practice to atttain higher and higher levels....

Don't Christians want to become saints? Don't you think that is possible in heaven? I don't know it seems odd to me.

Posted by hatless (# 3365) on :

What is spiritual progress? I can understand it in terms of learning to love my neighbour and free myself of the fear that makes me a lesser person on earth, but in a realm without UKIP, managers, behaviourists and other types of bean counters I can't work out what it means.

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by the Pookah:
Sorry to be obscure Freddy, I mean I was shocked at some Christians dislike of heaven. Maybe because they have a very fixed static view like chanting 'Hosanna' for eternity, certainly not anything like Swedenbord or the Spiritualists.

Yes, chanting "Hosanna" for eternity could get tiring. [Snore]

In one of Swedenborg's accounts they gather people together who have all recently died and entered the next life. They ask them what they expect that heaven will be like. People give the usual answers - relaxing in paradise, feasting with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, worshiping God, ruling over the nations, etc. They then welcome them to heaven, tell them that it is exactly as they expect, put them with people who have the same expectations, and have them live out their dreams.

At first they are wildly happy. But after a few days of lolling around in fabulous gardens, or sitting in church, they get bored and begin to wonder if that is it. Eventually they become disenchanted with their former ideas, and then they learn that there is no real joy in inactivity but that heaven is about living a regular useful and varied life.

The big surprise is that the afterlife is not so different from this one, just more perfect.

But yes, a real key is the idea that people progress spiritually there forever. The progress means that they learn new things, work on improvements to their communities, overcome their weaknesses, and strengthen their love for God and for others. People in heaven are also aware in a deep way of their connection to people in this world. This connection with the human race means that they are intimately involved in all human progress, moving it in the direction of peace and harmony such as they experience in heaven.

I know that few people believe that we can have this kind of knowledge about the afterlife. It may be completely untrue. But I think that it is both fascinating and sensible, and my experience is that it is comforting to people in all kinds of life situations. [Angel]

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
What is spiritual progress? I can understand it in terms of learning to love my neighbour and free myself of the fear that makes me a lesser person on earth, but in a realm without UKIP, managers, behaviourists and other types of bean counters I can't work out what it means.

Ah, but they do have UKIP, behaviourists and other types of bean counters.

Or at least their heavenly equivalent.

No one other than God is ever so perfect that they can't be improved. The same is even more true of any community or enterprise.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by the Pookah:
I was shocked at some Christians dislike of heaven. Maybe because they have a very fixed static view like chanting 'Hosanna' for eternity, certainly not anything like Swedenbord or the Spiritualists.

But I don't see any of them (except you I think) seeing heaven as a place to progress spiritually or even thinking about it that way. The spiritualists and even Buddhists would say you have free will in heaven/pure lands you can either lie around enjoying yourself imagining yourself eating rich foods, all kinds of worldly pleasures or you can devote yourself to spiritual practice to atttain higher and higher levels....

Don't Christians want to become saints? Don't you think that is possible in heaven? I don't know it seems odd to me.

IME Christians generally see heaven as a place of spiritual transformation rather than spiritual progress. This may explain why some people fear that heaven will be a very static, rather monotonous place; 'process' suggests ongoing movement, whereas we understand 'transformation' to be more or less instantaneous. But once you've been 'transformed', what is there left to learn? The Bible doesn't go into this.

And despite our regular prayers for forgiveness, our churches don't really focus on our becoming 'saints' in heaven; it's not a topic for sermons. Maybe this is because we identify as fairly decent people already. The 'burden of sin' that we groan under can feel like an abstract philosophical idea rather than a reference to our physical lives. I suppose we often have a sort of 'I'm okay, you're okay' theology without realising it. There's no urgent desire for heavenly saintliness in this scenario. Churches that have retained a certain revivalist ethos perhaps focus on this more.

Posted by Jammy Dodger (# 17872) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:

quote:
Originally posted by the Pookah:
Sorry to be obscure Freddy, I mean I was shocked at some Christians dislike of heaven. Maybe because they have a very fixed static view like chanting 'Hosanna' for eternity, certainly not anything like Swedenbord or the Spiritualists.
Yes, chanting "Hosanna" for eternity could get tiring.

In one of Swedenborg's accounts they gather people together who have all recently died and entered the next life. They ask them what they expect that heaven will be like. People give the usual answers - relaxing in paradise, feasting with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, worshiping God, ruling over the nations, etc. They then welcome them to heaven, tell them that it is exactly as they expect, put them with people who have the same expectations, and have them live out their dreams.

At first they are wildly happy. But after a few days of lolling around in fabulous gardens, or sitting in church, they get bored and begin to wonder if that is it. Eventually they become disenchanted with their former ideas, and then they learn that there is no real joy in inactivity but that heaven is about living a regular useful and varied life.

The big surprise is that the afterlife is not so different from this one, just more perfect.

But yes, a real key is the idea that people progress spiritually there forever. The progress means that they learn new things, work on improvements to their communities, overcome their weaknesses, and strengthen their love for God and for others. People in heaven are also aware in a deep way of their connection to people in this world. This connection with the human race means that they are intimately involved in all human progress, moving it in the direction of peace and harmony such as they experience in heaven.

I know that few people believe that we can have this kind of knowledge about the afterlife. It may be completely untrue. But I think that it is both fascinating and sensible, and my experience is that it is comforting to people in all kinds of life situations.

Thanks for this Freddy, as someone who had previously never even heard of Swedenborg this helped get a feel for what you were on about up thread. Thanks.

Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :

quote:
Originally posted by the Pookah:

Don't Christians want to become saints? Don't you think that is possible in heaven? I don't know it seems odd to me.

I think that the majority of Christians in this country would like the idea of being saints in heaven rather than any alternative after death. This wouldn't necessarily be connected to the idea of their becoming saints in this life. The negative caricature of a perfect person is someone with no sense of humour, who has no fun in his life, and who looks down on others. I wonder whether this is projected into the idea of a boring heaven.

Posted by the Pookah (# 9186) on :

Makes sense if people don't know about the interesting variety of Christian saints and mystics they'd think of them as dull and project it onto heaven.

Freddy; totally love Swedenborg, I have no issues believing helped in large part to NDE's, (a very interesting new one where an agnostic neurosurgeon had bacterial meningitis and made the trip) I even read a Chinese one from I think the 17th century, they're pretty much all the same.

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by the Pookah:
Swedenborg, I have no issues believing helped in large part to NDE's, (a very interesting new one where an agnostic neurosurgeon had bacterial meningitis and made the trip)

You mean Eben Alexander and his book "Proof of Heaven." He is coming to Bryn Athyn in April to speak and I expect that there will be large crowds.

Swedenborgians often get all excited about the publicity surrounding this kind of thing because it seems to confirm what Swedenborg wrote about the afterlife. Alexander's book is a good example.

quote:
Originally posted by the Pookah:
I even read a Chinese one from I think the 17th century, they're pretty much all the same.

That is one of the things that is so interesting. I think that it provides a logical reason for someone to accept the idea that this is what awaits them when they die.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

Which shows that they are entirely physiological.

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Which shows that they are entirely physiological.

Yes they are.

As Dumbledore said to Harry: "Of course it's happening inside your head. Why should that mean that it isn't real?"

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