Ship of Fools: Spiritual Experiences

Thread: Spiritual Experiences Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Lilac (# 17979) on :

I used to get these interesting visionary feelings, often referred to as "Peak Experiences". I still get them occasionally. Wordsworth gave the best description of what I mean:

"There was a time when meadow, grove, and stream,
The earth and every common sight
To me did seem
Apparrelled in celestial light..."

For me this was a nice sensation, like a teenage crush for a few minutes. But some people are disturbed by these experiences, and hope they never happen again. How many other people have encountered this feeling? And what do they make of it?

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

I think I know what you mean. The poem expresses it beautifully.

A TV commercial for Volkswagon comes close to describing those moments of perfect synchronicity.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

I'm not sure what it says about our society when a car commercial can be held up as an embodiment of a "Peak Experience" (whatever that is), but it's not encouraging.

Posted by que sais-je (# 17185) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I'm not sure what it says about our society when a car commercial can be held up as an embodiment of a "Peak Experience" (whatever that is), but it's not encouraging.

Shades of the prison-house begin to close
Upon the growing Boy,
But he beholds the light, and whence it flows,
....
At length the Man perceives it die away,
And fade into an advert on a rainy day.

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

Hah-hah-hah! [Killing me]

Posted by the Pookah (# 9186) on :

I've had them, I like William James's use of cosmic consciousness, it as if the walls dividing the ego from the outside world dissolve and you're part of everything and it's bathed in in light...you are still you but also part of everthing.
For buddhists we call that a small samadhi (enlightenment experience) it's happened to me out of the blue in midtown and then daily after a few days at a very intensive ascetic, meditation retreat.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

I haven't followed the link, but if it's the one I remember it's Richard Burton reading from Under Milkwood and it is sublime. I encountered Xerxes Largo for the first time in an episode of Space 1999. There is nothing wrong in encountering the sublime in the ridiculous, God in Mammon.

I have Stendhal's syndrome (yep, for real) and I'm glad of it. I am overwhelmed by the reality of mountains, Ronda in Spain, babies, beautiful women, Paris, film (the weather prayer in Patton Lust For Glory alone, EVERY time) and great art to the point where I cannot breathe and my inner Tourette's kicks off. I mean ALL the time. It used to frighten and worry me and now I embrace it because God does me with it.

Life is a spiritual experience.

Full of spiritual experience: Robin Williams in Fisher King talking about having a really mystical bowel movement.

We ALL know this to be true.

Posted by Lilac (# 17979) on :

Hmm... William James got his cosmic consciousness idea from a guy called Bucke, who wanted to base a new religion on it. Bucke believed that people who encountered this event belonged to the next stage in human evolution. I'm uneasy about that, because it seemed to inspire Nazi-type beliefs.

I had to be suspicious about my own experiences, because they made me feel I had a tremendous creative talent. So I tried writing poetry. Alas, when I looked at my poetry the next day it wasn't as inspired as I thought.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

quote:
There is nothing wrong in encountering the sublime in the ridiculous, God in Mammon

Possibly not from the point of the beneficiary, but in any case I didn't say that. I said it was indicative of something wrong with society.

I find it a tragedy when the best creative minds apparently get diverted into something that lasts thirty seconds, will usually get little more than a few weeks' airtime, and is designed to get all the positive things one may feel about their creativity indelibly associated with the consumer product in question.

I recall my dad wondering aloud about where all the talent that used to go into building cathedrals went in his day; he concluded it probably went into nuclear launch silos.

That is all.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

And it was the Allegretto from Beethoven's 7th. Not Xerxes. Which I'd have picked up from something mundane. Although not a British Airways advert using Songs From The Auvergne.

Ay up Lilac. I'm convinced James is right. But it's our consciousness, the collective consciousness, the mosaic of our individual ones, encountering THE meta-cosmic Consciousness. In which progressive revelation fits and continues beyond the narratives of the New Testament.

Doing greater things than He.

And believe me I do fear to say that. Yet I must. As the Spirit leads. We'll see.

Oh, and play this with the sound at 11, alone in the dark: I just did and nearly suffocated.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

quote:
Originally posted by the Pookah:
I've had them, I like William James's use of cosmic consciousness, it as if the walls dividing the ego from the outside world dissolve and you're part of everything and it's bathed in in light...you are still you but also part of everthing.
For buddhists we call that a small samadhi (enlightenment experience) it's happened to me out of the blue in midtown and then daily after a few days at a very intensive ascetic, meditation retreat.

That's well expressed. I've often called it a kind of collapse of ego boundaries, so there is the one, or if you like, the One. I suppose it's happened to me a lot throughout my life, and I've interpreted it in different ways, but 'God' is as good a word as any! Self-abandonment, I suppose.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

On the whole, I tend to regard all of life as spiritual so don't - these days - tend to make as much as a secular/sacred divide as much as I used to ... which may sound odd coming from a post-evangelical/charismatic who is becoming more sacramental and 'pre-catholic' in approach ...

I wrote poetry too, but find it can be as much about crystalising and clarifying as the mystic and the vatic ... probably more so, in fact.

T S Eliot had it right in The Dry Salvages, one of his Four Quartets when he wrote that a sense of well-being - and the spiritual - can come from almost anything - 'Or even a very good dinner ...'

'But the sudden illumination - We had the experience but missed the meaning.'

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

Didn't Lewis talk about the awareness of the numinous. I think in "Pilgrim's Regress" , in the intro, he talks about a sense of almost inexpressible longing, which is glimpsed but cannot be grasped. In the book, he identifies this with his semi-autobiographical character John, who has a recurring picture of "the Island", a symbol of beauty and peace.

I identify with that. I got these "glimpses" in a number of different situations, well before my conversion, and I knew they were all connected. I used to put it down to some kind if aesthetic appreciation of wonder and beauty; for example in viewing the night sky, in listening to and singing beautiful music, in holding my just born son for the first time and seeing his eyes trying to focus on me.

I like the language of "touching places". I think the "touching" is mutual, involves both a reaching out and being reached.

These days I have similar experiences from time to time in corporate worship.

I do not think we should build our lives on the significance of these experiences, rather accept them for the wonder we find in them. They seem to me a precious part of our journey, but they are only a part of a greater whole.

Posted by Lilac (# 17979) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
'But the sudden illumination - We had the experience but missed the meaning.'

Same here. I felt like the philosophers with the computer which gave the answer to everything as 42. It was like I got an enormous revelation about something, but I couldn't tell what. Lots of feeling, but no content.

[fixed code]

[ 27. January 2014, 04:56: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
... I have Stendhal's syndrome (yep, for real) ...

Oh, is that what that's called?

Splendid. A day on which one acquires a new syndrome can never be called a day wasted. I shall sleep well tonight.

Posted by poileplume (# 16438) on :

I read somewhere, I afraid I cannot remember the reference, that it occurs when you are at perfect peace. Completely void of any tensions or preoccupations - if only temporarily.

This seems partially correct as my experience is that it is a positive state, as opposed to being completely relaxed which is a passive state. I am sorry this is only a partial answer, perhaps someone clever can complete it.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

I've had such experiences, but most of mine come when I am emphatically NOT in a relaxed or peaceful state. Though they tend to cure that. [Big Grin]

I enjoy them very much, but I've learned not to build too much on them as far as my spiritual life goes. It seems that the only way I can "keep" them is to hold them lightly, be grateful when they come, and not attempt to hold on to them. Otherwise they flee from me.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

There's a joke in my family that it's experiences of this ilk that ruined my life. Well, in the early 80s I had a series of them that were shattering, and exploded my then view of reality. I had started doing Zen meditation, and all kinds of stuff happened. I suppose I have been digesting them ever since, and occasionally revisiting them. But they made stuff like careers and so on seem unimportant really.

Posted by poileplume (# 16438) on :

Interesting comment Lamb Chopped. Let me build on this. There is the experience of Catharsis, which occurs when you are released from the pressures and stresses of life. To quote Wikipedia – who else – “that results in renewal and restoration”. It is a very dynamic emotional state. Obviously prevalent amongst evangelicals.

I think what is being referred to here may be different, a transcending of the mundane. Which appears to occur after achieving tranquility and quietude.

Posted by WearyPilgrim (# 14593) on :

I have had a number of experiences of "heightened awareness" such as what is described here, most frequently in my journeyings-about as an amateur landscape photographer. I know that many Christians regard the idea of panentheism as a heresy that blurs the distinction between the Creator and the creation, but I have found that what Wordsworth and his fellow-Romantics expressed is profoundly true: that God is present in all things and reveals Him/-Herself in all things --- in the beauty and complexity of the universe and most especially in humankind as its most loving, sacrificial and noble best.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

Perfectly orthodox WearyPilgrim.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

Yes, I thought that panentheism was the thinking man's pantheism, and was considered OK, as not conflating creator/creation.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

I've heard mixed reports from the Orthodox on that one. Some, like Bishop Kallistos Ware, are cool about panentheism, others are quite iffy about it.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

Some of the hasidim have a complicated version of panentheism, in which God withdraws (tzimtzum), in order to permit creation. This has been termed the divine exile, which is quite an intriguing term.

But this seems to be picked up by some Christian mystics - for example, Simone Weil has a passage where she says that God withdraws so that I can be, and then if I withdraw, God can be.

Posted by Lilac (# 17979) on :

I could never relate my feelings to conventional religion. Wordsworth himself believed he'd seen a preview of the Kingdom of Heaven. But later he discovered he got the same feeling from inhaling nitrous oxide, recently discovered by his scientific friend Humphry Davy. At one stage Wordsworth, Coleridge and Davy planned to start a chemistry lab to manufacture mind-altering substances. And Coleridge's quest for visionary experiences lead him to become an opium addict. All very 1960s, but not my line.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lilac:
I could never relate my feelings to conventional religion. Wordsworth himself believed he'd seen a preview of the Kingdom of Heaven. But later he discovered he got the same feeling from inhaling nitrous oxide, recently discovered by his scientific friend Humphry Davy. At one stage Wordsworth, Coleridge and Davy planned to start a chemistry lab to manufacture mind-altering substances. And Coleridge's quest for visionary experiences lead him to become an opium addict. All very 1960s, but not my line.

Yes, Lilac, it's interesting how various drugs seem to produce such effects. Some friends of mine went to the Amazon in order to take ayahuasca, and when they got home, were gleefully informed by friends that you can get it in Brixton!

But I'm not sure about the logic of the argument that drug A produces ecstatic experience, therefore ecstatic experience is bogus.

I also wonder about our normal state of experience, which many Eastern people term dualistic - (self/other dualism, not mind/body) - and why this is reckoned to be the gold standard. I suppose because we're in it most of the time.

Posted by Nicolemr (# 28) on :

I had an experience while walking up to my knees in flooded streets during a violent thunderstorm. From slogging miserably I went to dancing through the storm in exhultation. It was amazing. Everything seemed to make sense.

Posted by WearyPilgrim (# 14593) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lilac:
I could never relate my feelings to conventional religion. Wordsworth himself believed he'd seen a preview of the Kingdom of Heaven. But later he discovered he got the same feeling from inhaling nitrous oxide, recently discovered by his scientific friend Humphry Davy. At one stage Wordsworth, Coleridge and Davy planned to start a chemistry lab to manufacture mind-altering substances. And Coleridge's quest for visionary experiences lead him to become an opium addict. All very 1960s, but not my line.

I think you've pointed out something important, Lilac. These heightened spiritual experiences can point to God and can lead one to a closer relationship with God, but there is a danger in making them the thing that defines one's spirituality. There's a dividing line between what I guess one could call "healthy" mysticism and the kind of dependence upon it that can lead a person to ride off in all directions at once, leaving orthodox religion for a warm, creamy theological mish-mosh of his/her own.

[ 28. January 2014, 12:14: Message edited by: WearyPilgrim ]

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Yes, Lilac, it's interesting how various drugs seem to produce such effects.

Interesting how this line of thought is similar to the discussion on the marijuana thread "Pot and the Church".

Posted by Lilac (# 17979) on :

quote:
Originally posted by the Pookah:
I've had them, I like William James's use of cosmic consciousness, it as if the walls dividing the ego from the outside world dissolve and you're part of everything and it's bathed in in light...you are still you but also part of everthing.
For buddhists we call that a small samadhi (enlightenment experience) it's happened to me out of the blue in midtown and then daily after a few days at a very intensive ascetic, meditation retreat.

In "The World as I See It", Albert Einstein wrote that his discoveries were inspired by "cosmic religious feeling". Problem is: If you're like me, it can make you feel like a genius when you're not.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Yes, Lilac, it's interesting how various drugs seem to produce such effects.
Interesting how this line of thought is similar to the discussion on the marijuana thread "Pot and the Church".

Well, if you really want to go reductionist, I suppose all our experiences can be viewed as occasioned by electro-chemical activities in the brain. But it strikes me as a cul de sac really. It also seems to erase experience itself.

It just seems odd to rely on man-made chemicals to have certain experiences.

I think there is a church of ayahuasca actually, which started in Brazil. One of its side-effects is copious vomiting, so I don't know how that is incorporated into a church service.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

Weary Pilgrim

Your comments about a 'warm creamy theological mish/mosh' made me smile, as that seems to be where I have ended up. I find it OK really, and it doesn't stop me going to church, and leaving orthodox religion is positively delightful. So it goes.

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Yes, Lilac, it's interesting how various drugs seem to produce such effects.
Interesting how this line of thought is similar to the discussion on the marijuana thread "Pot and the Church".
Well, if you really want to go reductionist, I suppose all our experiences can be viewed as occasioned by electro-chemical activities in the brain. But it strikes me as a cul de sac really. It also seems to erase experience itself.

It just seems odd to rely on man-made chemicals to have certain experiences.

And, of course, such things are still quite subjective. One person's spiritual moment is another's "righteous buzz" without any spiritual overtones.

The subjectivity of spiritual experiences was probably best summed up by noted philosopher Jules Winnfield in his well-known "Luncheon Dialogue".

quote:
Jules: Man, I just been sitting here thinking.
Vincent: About what?
Jules: About the miracle we just witnessed.
Vincent: The miracle you witnessed. I witnessed a freak occurrence.
Jules: What is a miracle, Vincent?
Vincent: An act of God.
Jules: And what's an act of God?
Vincent: When God makes the impossible possible. But this morning, I don't think it qualifies.
Jules: Hey, Vincent, don't you see? That shit don't matter. You're judging this shit the wrong way. I mean, it could be that God stopped the bullets, or He changed Coke to Pepsi, He found my fucking car keys. You don't judge shit like this based on merit. Now, whether or not what we experienced was an "according to Hoyle" miracle is insignificant. What is significant is that I felt the touch of God. God got involved.
Vincent: But why?
Jules: Well, that's what's fucking with me. I don't know why, but I can't go back to sleep.

Jules Winnfield experienced "a miracle" but Vincent Vega experienced "a freak occurrence", despite the fact that they both experienced the same event.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

Croesus

Yes, I think some theists go overboard in their inferences from various experiences. In fact, I would say that they are guessing, which is OK, after all, scientists also use guesswork. But with theism, there is no way of testing your guesswork, except by comparing with others' experiences.

But it tends to become circular - it's true because I say so, or because this book says so.

Posted by Lilac (# 17979) on :

A friend suggested the visionary experience of my surroundings was a sexual phenomenon. Yes I said it was like a teenage crush. But you see a piece of scenery as a divine creation instead of some boy you worship from afar. And if you're into nature-study you realize your vision has nothing to do with the biology of the trees and flowers, just as it has nothing to do with the real character of a boy you hardly know.

This sexual aspect has become more apparent to me on various occasions. I used to wonder whether I'd discovered a new form of sexual orientation. Maybe somebody can put a name to it?

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

Some people might call similar experiences a form of object sexuality. I suspect that discussing this would be a whole other thread, though.

[ 28. January 2014, 20:41: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

Posted by Lilac (# 17979) on :

Interesting, that. I heard about the lady who married the Berlin Wall, and I couldn't see the attraction. I wouldn't marry an oak tree. I'd just admire it from afar and "melt".

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

I think it's commonly held that the bits of our brain that are to do with religious experience are not far from the bits to do with sexual experience, so perhaps your insight is not too surprising.

While emotion - and the potential for overwhelming emotion - is clearly a part of Christianity, it's not depicted as a sure guide to what's going on. As one old hymn has it:

quote:
I dare not trust the sweetest frame,
But wholly lean on Jesus’ name.

Posted by Lilac (# 17979) on :

I just had a look into "object sexuality". The connections with synaesthesia and animism are intriguing, and I'll have to find out more about these. But people like Alister Hardy collected statistics about "peak experiences", and found around 30% of people admitted to getting them. So they aren't so unusual. Also I get turned on by nice scenery in general, not any particular object. And the sensation fades away annoyingly, whenever I try to analyze it or give it a "reality check".

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Odd. I have both synesthesia and animism, but emphatically not of a sexual nature. It's just that the objects seem to be depending on me to take care of them. Which made me a major pain in childhood when I couldn't bring myself to do anything destructive ("here, kid, pop this balloon!") Or to throw things away.

That said, I didn't see where you got the connections you mention. Not in the wikipedia article, as far as i could see.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lilac:
A friend suggested the visionary experience of my surroundings was a sexual phenomenon. Yes I said it was like a teenage crush. But you see a piece of scenery as a divine creation instead of some boy you worship from afar. And if you're into nature-study you realize your vision has nothing to do with the biology of the trees and flowers, just as it has nothing to do with the real character of a boy you hardly know.

This sexual aspect has become more apparent to me on various occasions. I used to wonder whether I'd discovered a new form of sexual orientation. Maybe somebody can put a name to it?

I used to teach meditation, and when we did long retreats, lasting up to two weeks, you would find that some people would start getting very strong sexual feelings.

In fact, it's a very old link, not so much in the West, as in Eastern practices. Although I think the desert fathers were tormented by sexual visions, weren't they?

We used to tell people to suck it up their spine, and pour it into their contemplation, and by and large, it worked.

You could even call it the same energy, or libido, I suppose, wanting to rise up, physically or spiritually. And some mystics have seen it as a great duality yearning to become one, and this can be seen in sexual terms.

Posted by Lilac (# 17979) on :

I can see a reference to animism at the start of the Wikipedia article, but not synaesthesia. I can't remember where I saw that reference but it's around somewhere. The "object sexuality" idea is intriguing but I wouldn't emphasise it. More relevant for me is the sensation of being in contact with a sort of spiritual realm. You could think of this as an "alternate universe". But unlike Narnia I haven't noticed anything there except a nice feeling.

Posted by Aelred of Rievaulx (# 16860) on :

I have had them from time to time. Very much valued and kept in mind by me, I have to say. Moments of total transcendence - everything shimmers. A huge sense of peace and oneness, and that all will be well. Strongly too the presence of God.
So there is content for me - but the dominating impression is of a huge and very gracious gift. They help me on my way.

Posted by Ronald Binge (# 9002) on :

I have experienced that transcendent feeling, recognized it in CS Lewis' descriptions of Joy. It has also made me deeply suspicious of legalism in Christianity. This all-consuming experience of Love abounding and the fundamental unity of everything means to me that this is the Grace that we need to raise our lives to God's level. No amount of dogma could persuade me otherwise, and the misery that was caused by humans shoehorning the infinite into wee tightly defined boxes proved it to me. YMMV.

Posted by Lilac (# 17979) on :

I just had another look at Richard Maurice Bucke's book "Cosmic Consciousness". Yes, people who get this revelation are examples of the next stage in the evolution of the human species. You can tell because it occurs mainly among members of the Aryan race, and among men rather than women. One example was Francis Bacon, the real author of Shakespeare.

I met a Roman Catholic lady who told me she'd been warned against these visions. They were likely to be delusions from Satan, who enjoys masquerading as an angel of light. I'm not suggesting this applies to anybody here, but maybe she had a point about some people.

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

Be careful, Lilac. You can't insinuate here that folks who have had various experiences which they perceive as transcendent are somehow marked as sexist fascists.

Subtle implication can still be counted as personal abuse in accordance with commandment 3. By all means express the view that in your opinion folks can make too much of experiences they count as transcendent. That's fine. Getting personal about their characters is another matter.

That being said, in view of your Apprentice status, you have a pass; this time.

Barnabas62
Purgatory Host

[ 29. January 2014, 23:50: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

Posted by Lilac (# 17979) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lilac:
They were likely to be delusions from Satan, who enjoys masquerading as an angel of light.

Sorry about any unwarranted implication. I was talking about Richard Maurice Bucke, and if you download his book you'll see what I mean. Satan obviously had a plan ready there. By contrast, I met a nice bloke in the Salvation Army who got one of these revelations and went on to devote much of his spare time to helping homeless people.

Thinking about the contrast, I suddenly remembered Jesus' advice: "By their fruits shall ye know them". So at last I have some idea how Jesus wants me to interpret these feelings. Which goes to show what a good idea it is to discuss these issues with other people. Thanks, folks. And thankyou Jesus, obviously.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lilac:
Yes, people who get this revelation are examples of the next stage in the evolution of the human species. You can tell because it occurs mainly among members of the Aryan race, and among men rather than women.

What's being "Aryan" or male got to do with "the next stage in the evolution of the human species"?

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

I think Lilac is being sarcastic. I gather that is what the author of said book believes.

Posted by Lilac (# 17979) on :

Yes, even though I'm a pure-bred Aryan and I've achieved Cosmic Consciousness I don't agree with everything Mr Bucke says. I might feel I've encountered the "meaning of the universe" but I've also felt I might have mental health problems, as Bucke mentions.

Incidentaly the real Aryans were the people who lived in ancient Iran. But don't mention that to the Klan.

Posted by Philip Charles (# 618) on :

I have had a few of these experiences throughout my life. I am by nature skeptical of such experiences so I reflected on them and hammered hell out of them. Over time I have discovered that the important part of the experience is the change that has occurred within me. The mechanism that created these experiences is irrelevant, it is the change that is important.

Posted by Lilac (# 17979) on :

As somebody mentioned, these "peak experiences" tend to imply a pantheistic outlook. Thinking of the Stoics, this could imply that we live in the best of all possible worlds, as our surroundings are seen as a direct manifestation of God. After a quick "reality-check" that's another idea which I feel needs to be treated cautiously.

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