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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: A Fundamentalist Province of the UK?
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Northern Ireland has always had fundamentalist tendencies, both religiously and politically, which in no small way led to a lot of rather gruesome conflict. However, there has been a decent period of sustained 'peace', but the issues one would expect to be less fought over seem to be becoming more entrenched.
To give a recent example: a local council managed to secure a banning of the Reduced Bible by the Reduced Shakespeare Company. I've seen this myself, and while a lot of religious comedy can sit uneasily with me, I think you would have to be fairly uptight to find anything truly offensive in this play. But one play is not the whole story. In the last five years or so there have been a number of 'interventions', both on religious and political grounds, with the resulted banning of art, plays and even books from school ciriculums. There have also been recent fuss's over school book notes, the teaching of evolution in schools, certain plays and art works that have not resulted in banning, but have been viciously fought none the less.
The 'reformed' church scene is radically changing too. There have always been a plethora of fundamentalist shacks dotted all over Northern Ireland, but the recent rise in them seems to suggest that society is moving in a certain direction (at least within one strata or section of the community). Denominations like the Presbyterians, Methodists and Episcopalians have seen very significant drops in numbers in the last decade. Now I know there are many reasons for this, but that's not what I'm interested in here. In response to that, what many of them appear to be doing is forming themselves and even aligning themselves with the fundamentalist shack that is their neighbour, which in many cases seems to be where the new generation of church goers went.
You could argue that this is a Protestant anomaly, but with the two major players in power being the DUP (seen as 'Protestant') and Sinn Féin (seen as 'Roman Catholic') and despite most of these episodes emanating from the concerns of the DUP; Sinn Féin seems remarkably compliant. What is worrying is that local councils expect to be able to weigh in on such matters to begin with. Surely this is well outside their powers and even their remit? The fact that they have won victories in many of these situations does not bode well, as it might set a precedent for further rulings in such matters.
I haven't lived in the North for a very long time, but when I do journey back to it these issues seem to be much more apparent than they ever were before - despite having been issues before. Is it possible to have for example, a fundamentalist city run by a fundamentalist council? There seems to be nothing being done to protect against this kind of activity, and it is sad to say it, but I can see this having a very significant bearing on 'peace' in Northern Ireland.
[ 27. January 2014, 12:11: Message edited by: fletcher christian ]
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Staretz Silouan
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Nearly everything I hear about Norn Irn just makes me wonder if we're talking about another planet. I just don't get the place. I'm drawn to responses like "A marching season? A Marching season? WT very F?!?" - then when I hear about people holding vigils over their right to march down a particular street, even though it annoys the hell out of everyone living there. Not that I understand the annoyance either. They're just other people - why the fear and loathing?
Like I say, I don't get the place.
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Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I think to understand Northern Ireland, you have to understand that it is critically, historically and fundamentally divided on religious affiliation* grounds. Even when they can agree on more minor matters like who rules them, and whether they should be allowed to kill others, the fundamental divide remains.
The marching season is a core reflective of this. The idea that anyone should stop them celebrating their religions victory over their neighbours is seem as a fundamental affront to their faith.
Of course, when the expressions of their faith - like killing the infidel - are removed, their passion for more religious-worded fervour is increased.
What is more, the less Ian Paisley rants and raves - and he seems to be beyond this nowadays - the more chance their is for someone else to take this banner of "No Popery".
So to me, this makes sense, with the more recent political developments there. "sense" of course is always a relative term when dealing with the Northern Irish. They are lovely people, yes, but when it comes to their religion, they make the rest of us look sane and reasonable.
*Note this is not necessarily the same as actually faith. It is a label, not a faith statement.
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Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I've only visited the Province once, in 1998 just as the peace process seemed to be kicking in.
I was struck by how full the church car-parks were on Sundays and how many churches were open on a Friday night with people 'witnessing' to passers by and so on ...
And by the number of guys out handing out tracts.
'Will ye accept an invitation to join us at the Metropolitan Tabernacle on Sunday?'
People tell me, though, that things aren't what they were. That church attendance is slipping, that people are less bothered about some of the strictures ...
I've always liked the story, probably apocryphal, about the wee elder leading the prayers in a Presbyterian church within earshot of a large park where steam train rides had been introduced for the kiddies on a Sunday.
The elder waxed lyrically about this desecration of the Sabbath in his prayers when, as if to illustrate his point, the whistle of the steam train could clearly be heard from the direction of the park.
'And if you listen Lord,' prayed the elder, 'Ye can hear the sound of the engine whistle noi ...'
Noi - my attempt to render 'now' in Ulster pronunciation.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
Personally, I think if Ulster's protestants were more aware of how the establishment of Protestant power in Ireland - especially Ulster - was little more than a bid to increase the British Empire's gross profit margins, they'd be less ideologically attached to the politics that were inevitably born out of those times. It's much less romantic, religiously, to see oneself as merely a useful pawn in the wider game of wealth-acquiring politics.
Unfortunately, the plantations of land-seeking protestants in what was and always was throughout a Catholic nation, was always bound to end in confusion, prejudice and injustice. In the centuries-long British bid to 'domesticate' and harvest the resources and people of Ireland there are no real winners, so far as the native populations are concerned. Just a spectrum of degrees of success, depending on location and place in history.
As for the marching thing. I lived in an area of Lancashire/formerly Yorkshire where the churches march the streets every year - brass bands, and such like; robed choir and clergy etc. I wonder how pacific and submissive these good English folk would be if they were requested not to march where they had paraded for some few hundreds of years previously, because a significant number of the locals were opposed to it? (Which incidentally they are - roads are blocked off, it's quite expensive to staff the event, not everyone's a Christian etc.)
I could live without either Protestants or Catholics marching, or occupying the streets with their own peculiar brand of patriotism or religious adherence; they get in the way of my shopping and my freedom to not listen to their music, or read their slogans. But I would much prefer to live in a country where all non-violent demonstrations/marches/expressions of opinion are respected and tolerated.
Banning is a short-term expedient which merely ensures that the problem remains, but festering and growing below the surface, and giving sanction to people's sense of oppression and resentment. This feeds quite directly into hardening religious attitudes, such as the ones Fletcher Christian refers to. The more the identity of the British Ulster Protestant is blurred or undermined, the less secure s/he will feel and the more inclined to be religiously hardline.
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Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I've always liked the story, probably apocryphal, about the wee elder leading the prayers in a Presbyterian church within earshot of a large park where steam train rides had been introduced for the kiddies on a Sunday.
The elder waxed lyrically about this desecration of the Sabbath in his prayers when, as if to illustrate his point, the whistle of the steam train could clearly be heard from the direction of the park.
'And if you listen Lord,' prayed the elder, 'Ye can hear the sound of the engine whistle noi ...'
The spirit of Mrs Proudie, still alive and well! She who objected to the running of the trains to Barchester on 'the Sabbath'. Just the thin wedge of rampant secularism. Of course, to many fundamentalist Christians in Ulster, she was absolutely right! To such folk, the godless morass of immorality, decadence and debauchery that England now is only goes to prove it!!
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Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Well yes. Ideally we wouldn't want to ban Orange marches. We'd want things to change so much that Catholics weren't threatened by them and could enjoy the spectacle without fear. (And much less importantly us soft lefty beard and sandals Protestants could enjoy the spectacle without guilt). After all they are sort of fun in a swaggering outdated-version-of-macho kind of way. And those lambeg drums can be wonderful.
But Northern Ireland seems to be nowhere near that situation. Much of Scotland isn't either.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I think seeing the 6 counties only in religious terms is confusing, since then you miss out on the history of Ireland, and how the 6 counties remained British. I'm not denying that religion counts for a lot, but so does nationalism, of different kinds. I nearly wrote the '6 county statelet'; I mixed with bad company!
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
But Northern Ireland seems to be nowhere near that situation. Much of Scotland isn't either.
Indeed. There's a lot of anti-Catholic prejudice here, and the local authority still bans football colours from schools.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
What's the state of the Anglican Church in Northern Ireland? From my recollection, Anglicans historically are a small minority with most Protestants being Presbyterian or Congregationalists.
As a small minority, the NI Anglicans may serve as good mediators.
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
What's the state of the Anglican Church in Northern Ireland? From my recollection, Anglicans historically are a small minority with most Protestants being Presbyterian or Congregationalists.
As a small minority, the NI Anglicans may serve as good mediators.
In theory, this should be so. Certainly, in my student days in the 70s it simply meant that they were distrusted by both sides, either as Protestants with services masquerading as sacraments and piratical in their expropriation of the altars of the saints of a thousand years or, on the other side, as still possessed by the spirit of popery.
By all accounts, such sentiments are fading away rapidly, and as the peace process continues and slowly but slowly things begin to heal, CoI clerics and leaders have sometimes been able to build bridges so that clergy of all sides can be seen together in public (e.g., the Queen's visit to Enniskillen).
Perhaps it might be best to think of the CoI's position as being one where gifted clergy and leaders can be a point of contact where conversations and, perhaps someday, joint activities can happen. Given the history and culture of the province, that's a valuable opportunity.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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trouty
Shipmate
# 13497
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Posted
I live in Liverpool and we have a lot of Orange marches and I think it's great. The bien pensants like to sneer at the prod working class (anyone here recognise themselves?), while giving Gerry Admas and co a free pass, so it's great to see the Lodge giving them a big Fuck You!
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I think Ken answered that one a few posts back. Bonfire Night celebrations are now enjoyed by people irrespective of religion or politics.
Incidentally I live in Liverpool and I've only seen one Orange march in the last ten years. I know they happen but they are not that obvious to most people, unless they are trying to get to Southport on 12 July.
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Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
My feeling is that fundamentalism is not really the problem in N.Ireland. I think that the general level of religious commitment - while still very high compared to the rest of the UK - is not as great as it once was. But this does not necessarily make the level of sectarianism any the less. It's a question of identity, not "how fundamentalist are you".
For example, the old joke of "Are you a Catholic Jew or a Protestant Jew?" does not really arise in practice because.... all Jews count as Protestants. A Jewish friend whose family had emigrated from N.I. to Wales during the Troubles told me how his father would watch news bulletins and say things like "Well, your head might agree with Molyneux... but your heart agrees with Paisley, doesn't it..."
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by trouty:
I live in Liverpool and we have a lot of Orange marches and I think it's great. The bien pensants like to sneer at the prod working class (anyone here recognise themselves?), while giving Gerry Admas and co a free pass, so it's great to see the Lodge giving them a big Fuck You!
Yeah, how great to celebrate the imperial oppression of a native people and their faith. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
What a deeply un-Christian sentiment. I must have missed the bit in the Bible where Jesus celebrates imperialism, must be because He Himself was in an occupied land and saw its evils.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
My feeling is that fundamentalism is not really the problem in N.Ireland. I think that the general level of religious commitment - while still very high compared to the rest of the UK - is not as great as it once was. But this does not necessarily make the level of sectarianism any the less. It's a question of identity, not "how fundamentalist are you".
For example, the old joke of "Are you a Catholic Jew or a Protestant Jew?" does not really arise in practice because.... all Jews count as Protestants. A Jewish friend whose family had emigrated from N.I. to Wales during the Troubles told me how his father would watch news bulletins and say things like "Well, your head might agree with Molyneux... but your heart agrees with Paisley, doesn't it..."
The government is clearly quite fundamentalist, given how NI stands on DH compared to the rest of the UK.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
The government is clearly quite fundamentalist, given how NI stands on DH compared to the rest of the UK.
It is also a Unionist/Nationalist coalition. One of the bastions of Partition when I was growing up was the perception that it ensured freedom of conscience on moral and social questions, denied to the priest-ridden South.
Also, I would advise against buying into the English Protestant Imperialist vs Irish Catholic Nationalist myth. Was Swift a Catholic? Or Wolfe Tone? Or Henry Joy McCracken? Or Charles Stewart Parnell?
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Eirenist
Shipmate
# 13343
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Posted
The basic problem seems to be, in essence, that the bedrock of neither party will accept a settlement that does not involve the humiliation of the other.
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Posts: 486 | From: Darkest Metroland | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
To be fair, Jade Constable, the Liverpool working class - of whatever persuasion - have good grounds to say a 'Big Fuck You!' to anyone and everyone.
That said, Scousers like Trouty can also be nauseatingly self-pitying and feel that the whole world is against them ...
Which is probably about right, come to think of it ...
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
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Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
The government is clearly quite fundamentalist, given how NI stands on DH compared to the rest of the UK.
This does not follow at all. Theological liberals are not necessarily socially liberal. I'm sure religious conservatism has its influence, but the inference "conservative DH stance THEREFORE fundamentalist" is not valid.
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
The government is clearly quite fundamentalist, given how NI stands on DH compared to the rest of the UK.
It is also a Unionist/Nationalist coalition. One of the bastions of Partition when I was growing up was the perception that it ensured freedom of conscience on moral and social questions, denied to the priest-ridden South.
Also, I would advise against buying into the English Protestant Imperialist vs Irish Catholic Nationalist myth. Was Swift a Catholic? Or Wolfe Tone? Or Henry Joy McCracken? Or Charles Stewart Parnell?
I was listening to the radio today (R4, naturally), when there was a discussion of the Great War's effect on Irish society. One point stuck out enormously: there were 400 people in the General Post Office (of which, as the joke goes, 5000 survived), and 200,000 Irish citizens fought for King and Country in the trenches, volunteers all I believe.
Also, despite being a beardy leftie, I well remember Gerry Adams and his friends trying to kill me - so no free pass here.
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Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Leprechaun
Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by trouty:
I live in Liverpool and we have a lot of Orange marches and I think it's great. The bien pensants like to sneer at the prod working class (anyone here recognise themselves?), while giving Gerry Admas and co a free pass, so it's great to see the Lodge giving them a big Fuck You!
Yeah, how great to celebrate the imperial oppression of a native people and their faith.
Give me strength. I mean, far be it from me to defend the Orange Order (I have forced my car through an Orange roadblock in the past more than once) but Orange marches in Liverpool are the expression of their home culture by a minority group. The world doesn't easily divide into heroes and villains.
I hate the 12th. Always avoid being in NI for it.But there's not going to be any progress if the English chattering classes don't even attempt to understand why this matters to certain groups of people.
To add one more nuance. Growing up in a middle class Protestant home in NI my parents were lifelong avidly churchgoing evangelicals (easily portrayed as fundies, and certainly on the DH issues of the day) But they were involved in a group (as were many of their friends) which organised community discussions on big issues with the other side of the community, many of whom were their friends. The trouble didn't emanate from particularly religious people at all, but from a group of people who shouted loudly about their Protestant heritage but barely darkened the door of a church. So simple equation of religious fundamentalism with the troubles is ...well...wrong. IME. I haven't lived there for 15 years.
Posts: 3097 | From: England - far from home... | Registered: Jan 2004
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
It isn't just the protestants in N.I. who are conservatives on the Dead Horse issues of the day. Bad 1970s joke: "Catholics and Protestants unite against ecumenism".
The fact is that in Northern Ireland you have a local government which is based on an alliance between Sinn Fein and the Democratic Unionist Party. In no other part of the UK or, indeed, the bits of Europe with paved roads and literacy would this be considered a tolerable state of affairs. Indeed, speaking of affairs, the Alliance Party, which sits with the European Liberals in the EU Parliament, and is basically in favour of peace, love and an end to sectarianism only won representation in Parliament because the wife of a leading DUP stalwart had an affair with a 19 year old man. Coo-coo-cuchoo Mrs Robinson, as they say. But I think that English people (like yours truly) comfortable in their secularitee and convinced of their immesurable superiority to the rest of the world ought to reflect for a moment on the fact that if Ulster is dysfunctional we might, perhaps, bear some of the blame for that.
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Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
These things are never neat and tidy.
On the whole I agree with Leprechaun - a lot of conservative or verging-on-fundamentalist Christians in Nor'n Ir'n' didn't have any truck with the sectarian violence at all.
That said, there were practising RCs and practising Prods involved in some pretty hairy stuff.
I know an Ulster Catholic here whose father - a very devout Catholic - used to throw people out of his house if he so much as heard them refer to Protestants in even the mildest of derogatory ways.
He'd grown up in the 1920s and hated sectarianism with a passion.
The same applied, no doubt, on the other side of the sectarian divide ... but neither side is completely squeaky clean. No-one is.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
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Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by trouty:
I live in Liverpool and we have a lot of Orange marches and I think it's great. The bien pensants like to sneer at the prod working class (anyone here recognise themselves?), while giving Gerry Admas and co a free pass, so it's great to see the Lodge giving them a big Fuck You!
Yeah, how great to celebrate the imperial oppression of a native people and their faith.
Give me strength. I mean, far be it from me to defend the Orange Order (I have forced my car through an Orange roadblock in the past more than once) but Orange marches in Liverpool are the expression of their home culture by a minority group. The world doesn't easily divide into heroes and villains.
I hate the 12th. Always avoid being in NI for it.But there's not going to be any progress if the English chattering classes don't even attempt to understand why this matters to certain groups of people.
To add one more nuance. Growing up in a middle class Protestant home in NI my parents were lifelong avidly churchgoing evangelicals (easily portrayed as fundies, and certainly on the DH issues of the day) But they were involved in a group (as were many of their friends) which organised community discussions on big issues with the other side of the community, many of whom were their friends. The trouble didn't emanate from particularly religious people at all, but from a group of people who shouted loudly about their Protestant heritage but barely darkened the door of a church. So simple equation of religious fundamentalism with the troubles is ...well...wrong. IME. I haven't lived there for 15 years.
You misunderstand. I'm not equating religious fundamentalism with the Troubles, I'm saying it is inappropriate for a Christian to celebrate the 'Glorious' Revolution and the oppression of the Irish by the English. Nothing to do with religion.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I'm not equating religious fundamentalism with the Troubles, I'm saying it is inappropriate for a Christian to celebrate the 'Glorious' Revolution and the oppression of the Irish by the English. Nothing to do with religion.
The Glorious Revolution OTOH was entirely about religion - the refusal of English to accept a Catholic monarch. (Though to add to the mix, William of Orange had the backing of Pope Alexander VIII.)
If - as you appear to be doing - you take it as a synecdoche for the entire course of Anglo-Irish relations over 800 years, then I would submit you are failing to understand the event itself and its context. Religion has everything to do with it, and with subsequent history.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
No one who has ever eaten Ulster Fry with champ in Brights Restaurant or similar, washed down with some of the black stuff, will ever believe the province is beyond redemption.
But seriously, folks ...
I made a lot of trips to Belfast for work reasons during the troubles, was gladdened by the experiences of generous hospitality from folks on both sides of the divide. And saddened by the effect of the troubles. Gildas is right. Leprechaun is right. Drawing simplistic conclusions about the province is not helpful.
Apart from the champ, the Ulster Fry and the Black stuff, that is. Particularly when shared with mixed company. Not much of an ecumenical experience but it was a start.
[ 28. January 2014, 19:09: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I would not be so sure. Of the three known plot leaders two were Anglican and one was Roman Catholic It was about power and status more than religion.
What even more remarkable the only side that may not have been present among the plotters were the Presbyterians. There may have been a fourth, and if there was he was Presbyterian.
It was weird when I found that out on a visit to Revolution House. D'Arcy was Roman Catholic. The Presbyterian name that is missing a Booth of Dunham Massey, I can't recall which.
Oh and if you are wondering why the Booths were so circumspect, well a distance cousin was a certain Jane Grey
Jengie
[ 28. January 2014, 19:20: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
I would not be so sure. Of the three known plot leaders two were Anglican and one was Roman Catholic It was about power and status more than religion.
If you were part of a ruling elite, then realpolitik might well trump faith - as witness the Pope/King William nexus. But the populace? Acknowledging that the content of 'religion' could include actual faith propositions, and sectarian, tribal or national loyalties and identities as well.
Like the story of the American visitor to Ulster:
'Say, what is this?'
'It's The Twelth!'
'I know what day it is'
'The Twelth of July!'
'And I know what month it is - but what's it about?'
'Away home and read your Bible!'
I would say that the divide in Ulster is religious, but you need to understand how religion functions in that society - as witness the stooshie mentioned in the OP.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
But the divide in the six counties is not only religious - how can it be? It connects very obviously with Irish nationalism and British nationalism.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601
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Posted
The NI divide is both religious and national because both sides follow versions of Christianity which believe in the idea of a 'Christian country'; with rival versions of Christianity involved both are seeking to be the ruling version and avoid being the minority discriminated-against party. The Catholics/Republicans seek that aim by also seeking reunion with nominally Catholic Eire, the Protestants/Unionists by seeking to perpetuate the union (sorry, 'Union') with nominally Protestant England. Of course there are all sorts of other factors involved besides religion - economic factors and anti-colonialism for starters - but the religious factor makes the whole thing unusually intractable; surrendering "God's cause" in not an option in such circumstances.
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
The Glorious Revolution OTOH was entirely about religion - the refusal of English to accept a Catholic monarch.
Well, it also had quite a lot to do with the primacy of parliament over the Monarchy, and a lot of the anti-Catholic feeling wasn't so much religious bigotry as it was the refusal to accept a de facto foreign overlord in the Pope.
Yes, there were real religious arguments, but it was far from just a religious matter.
(Alexander VIII may have supported William III, but the Pope at the time of the Glorious Revolution was Innocent XI, who certainly did support William III, for reasons that contained plenty of murky politics both religious and secular.)
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Ronald Binge
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# 9002
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Posted
Currently there is a historic enquiry going on in Banbridge investigating cases of abuse in children's homes which will eventually include the notorious Kincora. Currently Nazareth House and Termonbacca in Derry are under the spotlight and there are plenty of horrific stories on the RTE and BBC Northern Ireland news sites. The curious thing is that none of these stories came into the public domain until now unlike cases in the Republic - on the Roman Catholic "side of the house" up here there has often been an attitude of not wanting to make a show of the institutions of the Church in front of "themmuns".
This was typified by a soft-centred piece about life in Nazareth House in the nationalist Derry Journal last September, full of ah sure the nuns were strict but grand. The reality coming out is far more grim.
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But the divide in the six counties is not only religious - how can it be? It connects very obviously with Irish nationalism and British nationalism.
Not even that simple. Whatever might have originally been the case, for several centuries, it has been a dispute between two different Irish nationalisms. There was a joke phrase current in England in the 1970s, always delivered in a cod Unionist accent, "We're loyal subjects of Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, whether she likes it or not".
quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
... Currently Nazareth House and Termonbacca in Derry are under the spotlight and there are plenty of horrific stories on the RTE and BBC Northern Ireland news sites. The curious thing is that none of these stories came into the public domain until now unlike cases in the Republic - on the Roman Catholic "side of the house" up here there has often been an attitude of not wanting to make a show of the institutions of the Church in front of "themmuns".
This was typified by a soft-centred piece about life in Nazareth House in the nationalist Derry Journal last September, full of ah sure the nuns were strict but grand. The reality coming out is far more grim.
That's interesting. I tried to get some discussion going on the 'Why do we all dislike Pope Benedict' thread, on whether, if we complain that the RCC should have grassed its bad priests in, say, the USA or the Republic, why should we give it any greater slack elsewhere, e.g. in Ulster? Nobody rose to the question.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Ronald Binge
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# 9002
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Posted
To answer your question Enoch, because national identity, religion and how you were dealt with in Northern Ireland between 1920 and 1972 by the intertwined ruling party and Government of Northern Ireland were hopelessly entangled and never in a good way.
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Older, bearded (but no wiser)
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Anglican't
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# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
To answer your question Enoch, because national identity, religion and how you were dealt with in Northern Ireland between 1920 and 1972 by the intertwined ruling party and Government of Northern Ireland were hopelessly entangled and never in a good way.
Presumably the problem now (or at least a problem) is that by including all parties in the government of Northern Ireland there is now no effective parliamentary opposition? Yes, everyone is trying to work together and bury the hatchet, which is all well and good, but who holds the executive to account? Where does political criticism of the government's actions come from?
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Ronald Binge
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# 9002
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Posted
To an extent from the three smaller parties: Alliance, the SDLP and the Ulster Unionists but given they are in government it is circumspect. There is the very interesting NI21 but they are very new. There are of course the sheer viciousness of dissident Republicans and the atavistic "Fleg" protestors.
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Older, bearded (but no wiser)
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Ronald Binge
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# 9002
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Posted
I would also add that the appeal of the DUP and Sinn Fein to their respective electorates is a crude one. The majority of those voting for them would neither be fundamentalists on one side or advocates of the Provisional IRA campaign on the other, but vote for the parties on the basis that they will "Stand up" for usunns against themmuns.
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Older, bearded (but no wiser)
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Steve Langton
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# 17601
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Posted
Horrifying as the abuse in children's homes is, I'm not sure it's really relevant to a thread on 'fundamentalism' in NI - after all neither RC nor Protestant fundamentalists would support such conduct.
As regards the 'fundamentalism' the trouble is they aren't fundamentalist enough, or they would realise that the NT both rejects the idea of a 'Christian country' whether Protestant or Catholic, and positively teaches a different way for Christians to relate to the countries in which they live, rather than the entanglement between religion. and state noted in the last few posts.
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Steve Langton
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# 17601
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Posted
I've realised that my reference in my last post to 'the last few posts' was overtaken by Anglican't and Ronald Binge (the latter twice) adding posts while I was actually composing my own. For the correct context of my post go back to Ronald's post just before Anglican't's post and the 'last few posts' before that one!
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Augustine the Aleut
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# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
To answer your question Enoch, because national identity, religion and how you were dealt with in Northern Ireland between 1920 and 1972 by the intertwined ruling party and Government of Northern Ireland were hopelessly entangled and never in a good way.
Presumably the problem now (or at least a problem) is that by including all parties in the government of Northern Ireland there is now no effective parliamentary opposition? Yes, everyone is trying to work together and bury the hatchet, which is all well and good, but who holds the executive to account? Where does political criticism of the government's actions come from?
One of the differences between NI and GB is that this is not really a terribly relevant question. For so long the opposition saw its role as being one of opposing the state that it will take some time for anyone to envision opposition as having the job of critic and potential replacement of the government.
First, let's stop the killing and then begin the difficult process of being able to talk to each other again. Then perhaps other things can develop in a little while. Until then, we must rely on the media and the occasional gadfly councillor or deputy.
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
I caught a glimpse of the Northern Ireland Assembly on CPAC. The DUP, Sinn Fein and the lot of characters with shady pasts were debating a measure on Public Libraries in County Down. When reminded how boring it was, Ian Paisley could only say "yeah, well..."
*Cable Public Affairs Channel in Canada.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
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Callan
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# 525
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Posted
In politics, boring is good.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
The whole thing is nowhere near as simple as that, Steven Langton. Many of the Provos, for instance, were revolutionary Marxist in ideology. How do you square that with Catholic nationalism?
But that's the way it went.
Plenty of the NorAid supporters in the US wouldn't have delved into their pockets so deeply if they'd have known that ...
Sure, I agree that religion, nationalism and the idea that countries should be Catholic, Protestant or whatever else is a toxic mix, but as other posters have said, religion is only part of the equation.
It's always been that way. Even if there'd never been a Christendom or countries identifying with whatever faith or persuasion their rulers professed then it would have happened on a micro rather than a macro level ... this group not getting on with that group etc etc.
Sure, it becomes far more deadly when there's nationalism and politics involved on a large scale, but the Anabaptist idea that all would have been fine and dandy and love will have prevailed if it hadn't been for the Emperor Constantine etc is an idealistic fantasy ...
But that's a tangent.
People are people and people are political. Wherever there are people there are politics. We have to live with that and make the best of it.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Steve Langton
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# 17601
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Posted
A little pedantry – I am ‘Steve’ or ‘Stephen’, not ‘Steven’, please!!
I didn’t say it was so very simple, Gamaliel. You perhaps missed my overnight post (29/01/2014, 01; 16 am) in which I explicitly said there were many other factors in Ulster besides religion. As a 1960s student I was well aware of the Marxist element on the Republican/Provo side; Marxists often aligned with minority ‘liberation movement’ interests against the capitalist governments Marxism opposed, and in practice found themselves supporting what were really narrow nationalisms which weren’t actually communist but welcomed the arms and funding from Russia/Libya/etc.. In Ulster they jumped upon a movement originally started as a Catholic Civil rights movement, and in the end the Catholic/Nationalist/Republican element outlasted Communist involvement which was severely curtailed after the fall of Russian Communism. The rival Unionist movement was resolutely Protestant throughout and that factor still needs to be faced in discussing Ulster.
Nor do I think there would be ‘no problem’ without Constantinianism; I take seriously a Bible which tells us all men are sinners and of course human greed etc. will lead to all kinds of conflict. The trouble is that any ‘state religion’, or idea of a religious state, aggravates the worldly issues and makes other negotiations far harder; the Unionist slogan ‘No Surrender’ is significantly fuelled by a ‘we are fighting for God and can’t let Him down’ feeling.
What I am aiming for is that ‘Christianity as a state religion’ should be taken out of the equation generally, not just in Ulster, so that the wars are not being fought in the name of Jesus, and also so that Christians neutral in worldly conflicts can play a part in peace making which is not compromised by the kind of thing seen in Ulster. In the context of this thread, I think it is well worth making the point that seriously ‘fundamentalist’ Christianity wouldn’t be doing the kind of thing that happens in Ulster because seriously fundamental Christianity would reject the involvement in the state which is so toxic in the province.
In Ulster, taking Christianity and a large number of Christian people out of the conflict by asserting the NT teaching of not seeking a ‘kingdom of this world’ for Jesus would make a real difference and take much of the heat out of it. Is that a bad thing?
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
I caught a glimpse of the Northern Ireland Assembly on CPAC. The DUP, Sinn Fein and the lot of characters with shady pasts were debating a measure on Public Libraries in County Down. When reminded how boring it was, Ian Paisley could only say "yeah, well..."
*Cable Public Affairs Channel in Canada.
My mind is still boggling. What are the viewing figures for CPAC if its schedules offer debates in other peoples' legislatures? Or do Canadians have different tastes in fixes from the rest of us? Was it prime time viewing?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Apologies for messing up your name, Steve.
I can certainly see what you're getting at, and agree on the Marxist element gravitating towards minority causes that could edge over into narrow nationalisms ...
I also have a lot of sympathy with your view of the Unionist side of the equation - religion and nationalism mixed toxically.
The problem though, from an idealistic, Anabaptist style perspective is that none of this goes away when you separate Church from State - although I agree that the outcome is generally far less deadly ...
You've only got to go to Wales to find a woeful lack of co-operation or even outright hostility between Welsh Baptists and English Baptists and so on.
Of course, the situation in Ulster is far more serious and goes back to 16th and 17th century political shenanigans ... or even further back, if one is so inclined, to Henry II and his invasion of Ireland ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
And for all the separation between Church and State that you find in the USA, it's not as if US Christians are somehow neutral, squeaky-clean and 'above' politics in a 'My Kingdom is not of this world ...' kind of way.
Far from it. The opposite in fact.
The US Religious Right is as gung-ho about the US flag, Constitution and 'One Nation Under God' and all that schtick as any Ulster Protestant is about a Protestant State and William of Orange and all that malarkey.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601
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Posted
I’m writing this up at leisure ‘off-line’ to get it as correct and thoughtful as possible; I hope when finally posted it will fit with where the thread has been going, and/or spark useful fresh thoughts. (I've noticed your recent posts, Gamaliel - I'll give thought and come back shortly)
WHILE I FULLY RECOGNISE THAT THERE ARE OTHER ASPECTS TO THE PROBLEMS OF NORTHERN IRELAND (Gamaliel please note!), it is clear that the religious aspect is very important and is presumably also the main point of a thread about a ‘Fundamentalist province’. As I analyse it the two rival forms of Christianity involved both adhere (in slightly different ways) to the idea that there can and should be ‘Christian countries’, and each wants to be the form favoured in the province; after centuries of fighting/persecution/terrorism/discrimination/etc., neither side can realistically accept the other’s kind of ‘Christian country’.
I personally have over the years (and originally largely because of my concern about NI when the current troubles kicked off during my student years in the late 1960s), come to believe roughly the ‘Anabaptist’ position that the New Testament actually teaches against Christian states and offers positively a different, humbler, and definitely more peaceful way for Christians, however they may interpret other aspects of the faith, to relate to the country in which they live and the non-Christians who they live among.
In the present situation we see “Catholic Republicans/Irish Nationalists” who want to be united with nominally Catholic Eire, and “Protestant Unionists/Ulster Nationalists” who want to remain united with nominally Protestant mainland UK. Being a ‘Protestant Republican’ or a ‘Catholic Unionist’ is verging on impossible and probably dangerous (Catholics who join the PSNI have been targeted and even killed as ‘traitors’ by Republican terrorists). But if Christians adopted the NT teaching, there would instead be a three-way split; the choice would be Irish Nationalist/Ulster Nationalist/ or Christian whose attitude would be that as citizens of the kingdom of heaven on earth they weren’t involved in the controversy anyway.
The Christians would be pacifists; and they would obey such NT texts as Paul’s “…we do not war with carnal weapons. For the weapons of our warfare are not physical, but they are powerful with God’s help….” (II Cor 10; 3,4) or “Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them… repay no one evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble (in Gk. simply ‘kala’ – good things) in the sight of all. If possible so far as depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God….” (Romans 12 - read it all and note that Romans 13, about relations to governments, follows on). Or again texts like Peter’s – well actually practically the whole first epistle, which ironically is a key text for us Anabaptists despite having been written by the supposed first Pope.
Christians following the NT wouldn’t be staging provocative parades or violent protests about flags and parades, not only because of that teaching about living peaceably but also because those issues aren’t relevant if you’re not trying to set up or defend a ‘Christian country’ of either persuasion….
One of the problems of the ‘Christian country’ way of thinking is that it allows people to kid themselves that the ‘Christian country’ cause provides a legitimate exception to all the NT teaching about love, turning the other cheek, being willing to suffer unjustly, willing to die for your faith but NOT kill for it and so on; whereas actually that teaching is a major part of why ‘Christian countries’ are wrong.
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