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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Why does anyone pay for software?
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
The UK government plans to stop: UK government plans switch from Microsoft Office to open source and so is Germany, though the Germans will consider German that you have to pay for.
But the point that is made, is that no-one actually must pay for any software, and no-one has to even bother. Everything you buy software to do, can be done by free open source programs. This includes the operating system and all applications. All free, all legal.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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An die Freude
Shipmate
# 14794
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Posted
I'd guess it has to do with the existence of support and security updates. That, plus the costs of training the work force for the new systems might exceed those of the old software.
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"I too am not a bit tamed, I too am untranslatable."
Walt Whitman
Formerly JFH
Posts: 851 | From: Proud Socialist Monarchy of Sweden | Registered: May 2009
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Chocoholic
Shipmate
# 4655
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Posted
Compatibility and concerns about compatibility are probably reasons too. Do the operating systems support the programs we need such as specialist software and if we send files to other people we need to know they are widely supported so they can read them too.
Posts: 773 | From: London | Registered: Jun 2003
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
There is no training cost. Users train themselves.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
But the point that is made, is that no-one actually must pay for any software, and no-one has to even bother. Everything you buy software to do, can be done by free open source programs. This includes the operating system and all applications. All free, all legal.
Well, depends. I use photoshop. GIMP is a free alternative. It is powerful, but quirky. Were I making money with my usage, Photoshop would pay for itself in time saved.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
At work I use MS Office. Not being rich enough to cough up, on this computer I installed Open Office. For personal use Open Office is fine, the sermon for Sunday was typed out on it (but, then WordPad would be fine for that!). But there are some things Open Office simply sucks at. Try putting equations into a document for example (actually Word isn't all that great for that either, but it can be done). Or import data from a file that's using something other than a tab or comma delimiter (or, even worse, multiple delimiters).
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Jenn.
Shipmate
# 5239
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Posted
I pay for office because it has the features I need for uni work. I haven't been able to find those features on free software. The time I save with those features makes it completely worth the outlay. For sermons and similar, I wouldn't bother with paid for software, but for some tasks paid for software really is better.
Posts: 2282 | From: England | Registered: Nov 2003
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
The UK government plans to stop: UK government plans switch from Microsoft Office to open source and so is Germany, though the Germans will consider German that you have to pay for.
But the point that is made, is that no-one actually must pay for any software, and no-one has to even bother. Everything you buy software to do, can be done by free open source programs. This includes the operating system and all applications. All free, all legal.
Bought desktops/lab tops/tablets often come with a Microsoft/Android os already installed. People just accept that: 90% probably don't realise they have a choice. The first time you set up a new system - even dual boot - it's scary and often you are invalidating the H/W guarantee.
Why would a private individual buy Microsoft Office rather than LibreOffice? Support, availability of non-geekish manuals, amount of online support available (support which doesn't assume you know how to find /usr/share/applications or whatever) and so on.
But if people like to explore, aren't computer phobic, and want to save money, I'd say give it a go. But beware, you'll encounter a lot of odd people muttering "^X^C q quit :q ^C end x exit
ZZ ^D ? help killall logout ^X^Z bye".
(Written on machine running Mint XFCE).
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Try putting equations into a document for example (actually Word isn't all that great for that either, but it can be done).
Mad scientists are suppose to use LaTeX which is also a wonderful time waster. I think the amount of time I've spent tinkering with it exceeds the time spent on Solitaire.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I've never taken any computer training. I am using discarded/recycled computers and free software. I guess I kind of feel if I can do it, anyone can. All free all the time.
As for "you can't do this with that program", well, if you're experienced in using a particular paid-for program, sure, an open source program will not work quite like the one you used before. Neither would it be possible to travel UK to North America or vice versa and not have to think about how you're driving on the other side of the road. You kind of have to get out of the Windows way of thinking.
Comments about The Gimp* for photo editting, I would suggest I could call Photoshop quirky, mainly because I've only ever used The Gimp. Not sure about OO and equations, I suspect it may be similar to different ways?
*graphical image manipulation program
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I can't make OpenOffice, which is otherwise fine, do nested stuff, as in things identified as A, B, with other things inside numbered, and then lower case letters, and then numbers as i,ii and so on. Hair tearing out stuff, needed for meetings.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I've never taken any computer training. I am using discarded/recycled computers and free software. I guess I kind of feel if I can do it, anyone can. All free all the time.
What that tells me is that you have little need to do more than read documents sent by others and that the same applies for any you send out - people aren't needing to edit them.
As a freelancer, I could theoretically choose to use whatever I liked, but the reality is that the vast majority of my clients use Office, so I do too, since a big part of my job involves sending them back the translated documents in an otherwise identical format. This kind of logic probably applies to many others using IT on a professional basis.
[ 30. January 2014, 20:14: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Chocoholic
Shipmate
# 4655
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Posted
It's not just that we are used to some programs that won't work the same on open source, some applications wouldn't work in other OS's and there aren't free alternatives of the programmes.
Posts: 773 | From: London | Registered: Jun 2003
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
The computer comes with Windows (though I made sure I got the odd-numbered version with the new computer). I pay for games.
For everything work related, OpenOffice. No one at my publishers cares whether I'm using that or MSOffice - it handles correction tracking just fine. For graphics, I use Gimp. For videos, Movie Maker.
I'll probably move over to Linux at some point, but inevitably, that'd mean training the other Tors to use it, and frankly, I don't have the energy at the moment...
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I can't make OpenOffice, which is otherwise fine, do nested stuff, as in things identified as A, B, with other things inside numbered, and then lower case letters, and then numbers as i,ii and so on. Hair tearing out stuff, needed for meetings.
Does the option in format "Bullets and Numbering" work?
The options tab in it seems fairly powerful.
(tab) goes in a level
(enter) continues on the same level
(double enter) exits
(shift tab) goes back
(mind you I have problems getting it to work nicely in MSWord, so I wouldn't be surprised if it's not easy when actually trying to do stuff in either Open/Libre)
Also appear to have macro's though I've only just put it back on so again not tested.
--PS at what point should we move to Geek support?
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
It's a MAN'S operating system! Steam driven.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I've never taken any computer training. I am using discarded/recycled computers and free software. I guess I kind of feel if I can do it, anyone can. All free all the time.
What that tells me is that you have little need to do more than read documents sent by others and that the same applies for any you send out - people aren't needing to edit them.
Actually not true. We use the actual open source Libre Office over OO, and do 3 to 6 reports per week involving that number of people. People want docx documents, and we do that. I've actually gone to an "any platform" model with any programs possible as much as we can, though we use ourselves open source on mixed Linux and currently Windows7. It saves my company thousands each year. One of our partners is exclusively Apple, so we deal with their things too. It is clear that Libre Office opens MS documents fine and that MS may not always do this properly.
OO and Libre Office are not the only alternatives; I've used Abiword and KOffice in the past . We publish stuff using Scribus and then print, usually, to pdf.
--But-- moving away from debates about the merits of specific programs:
What I wonder about is why wouldn't we have a situation where all software is free and available? The IT people make their living doing service, not by reselling software. It's only big corps which want to make money that way.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
But the point that is made, is that no-one actually must pay for any software, and no-one has to even bother. Everything you buy software to do, can be done by free open source programs. This includes the operating system and all applications. All free, all legal.
Well--no.
There's a reason no architect building anything larger than a garden shed uses open source software. Just for grins, I did a web search for "open source alternatives for Vectorworks". That's the phrasing that google suggested when I started typing it in. I was able to come up with three programs fairly quickly, but their definition of "alternative" was pretty loose. Two of those programs were 2D only.
Vectorworks is the program I use almost daily. It's not the most powerful CAD program out there, but it's good for anything up to medium-size skyscrapers, so it's quite powerful for organ design. It's fast, it has the tools I need (all in one program) and it can import or export in multiple platforms--including those which can be read by the CNC router. I can do 2D, 3D, rendering, and project management.
We pay for the software because the free drawing programs simply aren't powerful enough and won't do what we need them to do. (I'd be better off going back to an old-fashioned drafting table than using most of them). The professionals who designed the program deserve their remuneration for providing a program which makes my job easier, not harder.
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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson
Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Try putting equations into a document for example (actually Word isn't all that great for that either, but it can be done).
Um... I teach maths for a living and long to have Libre Office installed in place of MS Office - primarily for the quality of the equation editor. Yes the editor in MS Office has improved somewhat, but it's still not as quick and easy to manage, particularly for complex equations, as Libre Office Math. Are you just not comfortable with using a markup language?
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I can't make OpenOffice, which is otherwise fine, do nested stuff, as in things identified as A, B, with other things inside numbered, and then lower case letters, and then numbers as i,ii and so on. Hair tearing out stuff, needed for meetings.
Does the option in format "Bullets and Numbering" work?
The options tab in it seems fairly powerful.
(tab) goes in a level
(enter) continues on the same level
(double enter) exits
(shift tab) goes back
(mind you I have problems getting it to work nicely in MSWord, so I wouldn't be surprised if it's not easy when actually trying to do stuff in either Open/Libre)
Also appear to have macro's though I've only just put it back on so again not tested.
--PS at what point should we move to Geek support?
Have tried that sort of thing, but it usually fouls up the stuff I have already entered.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Try putting equations into a document for example (actually Word isn't all that great for that either, but it can be done).
Um... I teach maths for a living and long to have Libre Office installed in place of MS Office - primarily for the quality of the equation editor. Yes the editor in MS Office has improved somewhat, but it's still not as quick and easy to manage, particularly for complex equations, as Libre Office Math. Are you just not comfortable with using a markup language?
I might just have to try Libre Office then. The equation editor in OO4 is very limited, or totally non-intuitive.
Markup languages are no problem. My (rather dated as I've not touched it in about 10 years) was produced in Notepad typing HTML, and I'd use LaTeX a lot more if it was easier for those without any TeX experience to insert comments, track changes etc in documents bouncing around between different people.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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An die Freude
Shipmate
# 14794
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
There is no training cost. Users train themselves.
Clearly you've never had to sit down with my mother to teach her Facebook. Frankly, I'm not that quick to relearn program layouts myself. I'm still annoyed with MS Office's changes in layout for Mac that arrived 2-3 years ago. Things are just not where they ought to be and finding them takes time and energy, which is in itself a cost. Imagine redoing that for every single program and you get quite steep a cost in a major organisation - especially if those who are not very comp(uter)atible/quick learners fill important administrative roles. To me, there seems to be a lot of computer elitism going on at times in the open source community (leading to the support being less functional than it ought to be for professional purposes), and frankly, I'd say comments that "everyone should be able to do it", also implying "everyone SHOULD do it", seem to me to bear traces of that as well. The iPhone is the most successful (and expensive) smartphone model there is because it makes what's not that difficult and could be helpful in everyday life ridiculously simple, neat and intuitive. That's why it has mum's approval but OpenOffice has barely got mine.
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"I too am not a bit tamed, I too am untranslatable."
Walt Whitman
Formerly JFH
Posts: 851 | From: Proud Socialist Monarchy of Sweden | Registered: May 2009
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AmyBo
Shipmate
# 15040
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Posted
I'm in the GIMP sucks camp. Can't do half of what I can do in Photoshop. As for InDesign or Illustrator? Nothing can even come that close. And I'm including Quark in that assessment. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
I do with there were reasonable alternatives, though, since Adobe shouldn't be the only option.
Posts: 122 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Aug 2009
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
What I wonder about is why wouldn't we have a situation where all software is free and available? The IT people make their living doing service, not by reselling software. It's only big corps which want to make money that way.
IT make very little money from the average user, IIRC. They can make it from corporate clients, but is this enough to sponsor development and fixes?
You know who pays for development? You do, if you run a company with technical people. Who's computers do you think they write the software on? quote:
In fact, 67 percent of developers polled by Evans Data Corp reported that they spend some time developing open source software while at their primary job. This means that some portion of the salary paid to the developer is allocated to work not related to their job.
Why is it OK to expect someone to work for free so that you may profit? quote:
People assume that the primary way to pay for open source projects is to charge for support. Early commercial open-source vendors like MySQL and JBoss were able to earn significant revenue from the support-only business model, but over time the approach is difficult to grow. Corporate customers are generally willing to pay for support, however most consumers are not with only 3 percent of users actually purchasing support subscriptions.
So, what most people assume is wrong. 65 percent of developers make US$ 100 or less annually on their open source projects. Support contracts are not making most developers rich or even paying for their World of Warcraft subscriptions.
I use a mix of proprietary, Open Source and charity ware. I support, both philosophically and financially, those who offer alternatives to those who would otherwise hold us in their grip.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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the Pookah
Shipmate
# 9186
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Posted
I was clueless but hated when MS changed from excellent Word and at the urging of my techie friends moved to Linux Ubuntu, I use that and LibreOffice and I would never go back. I can write a document in OO and then send it as Docx, rtf, anything at a click, it is that powerful.
As a continual computer newbie I just roll over to the Ubuntu forums and get tons of help at my simple level. My 80 year old father after his computer died due to a virus switched happily to Ubuntu.. I love Mint as well.
Posts: 926 | From: the Northern colonies | Registered: Mar 2005
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Prester John
Shipmate
# 5502
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
The UK government plans to stop: UK government plans switch from Microsoft Office to open source and so is Germany, though the Germans will consider German that you have to pay for.
But the point that is made, is that no-one actually must pay for any software, and no-one has to even bother. Everything you buy software to do, can be done by free open source programs. This includes the operating system and all applications. All free, all legal.
An organization that uses open source software will need to consider that while the software is free the support for the software is not. There is a burgeoning industry of companies that offer support services for open source software. Otherwise, as mentioned up thread, someone within the organization would need to be trained to support it.
In addition, companies can be reticent about using such software because of the restrictions that come with using such software. Often any derivative works or modifications to the software would need to be shared with the wider community otherwise known as
copy left.. That would mean sharing their intellectual property with existing or potential competitors.
Posts: 884 | From: SF Bay Area | Registered: Feb 2004
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Prester John
Shipmate
# 5502
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Posted
Sorry for the double post.
Another thing to consider is that if you are a medium sized or larger organization moving off of Office products to something else can be difficult when you have so much documentation already in Word, Excel, etc. The cost in terms time and effort to convert them to something else, even if that software is free, can be daunting.
Posts: 884 | From: SF Bay Area | Registered: Feb 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Actually not true. We use the actual open source Libre Office over OO
I stand corrected. What your reply shows in that case, though, is that like me, you are essentially adapting to what's in use around you (unless it was your decision for your office to adopt Libre Office).
quote:
What I wonder about is why wouldn't we have a situation where all software is free and available?
Because there is no such thing as a free lunch, as prester john for instance has pointed out.
I may need to be corrected on this too, but I think you'll find that behind some parts of the open-source movement there is a huge battle for standards. Standards are not the neutral things one might suppose, they have lots of commercial interests behind them.
More broadly speaking, I think this debate highlights one of the murkier aspects of the technological revolution. A lot of traditional business models have collapsed or look seriously obsolete eg copyright), and have been replaced by what looks like freely available stuff. However, either this is not viable in the long term, or people are still making money out of it, just in much more devious ways (eg creative commons). As the adage goes, "if it's free, you are not the client, you are the product".
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
OO cannot create a true docx. I discovered this the hard way when I tried to publish on Lulu. It was a nightmare. It couldn't take it straight, and converting the file to PDF was something between a joke and an invitation to murder.
People buy software because paying someone to write software results in a superior product. the first time I tried to switch to Linux, and I bitched about one of the applications, I was told to suck it up and deal because these people were writing software out of the goodness of their hearts and I couldn't expect that my measly stupid selfish needs would be met by these busy, selfless people.
Fuck that. Give me professional software.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Philip Charles
Ship's cutler
# 618
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Posted
I was a Debian Developer for just under ten years (Debian is the largest GNU/Linux distribution) so I know something about Free Open Source Software (FLOSS)
FLOSS is free Libre. It is Free Gratis because people choose to give it away.
FLOSS has an absolute dominance of the super computer field - 95%.
FLOSS is the major player in the internet infrastructure. Its security is very strong.
FLOSS can be found in washing machines, fridges, TVs etc. I suspect that my defibrillator runs on FLOSS.
Android uses a Linux kernel.
Given that only 30-40% of software is written for sale, FLOSS fits neatly into the remaining 60-70% where the existing code can be modified and extended for other purposes.
The above rambling has a point.
FLOSS is not a toy, but a (the) major contributor to Communication and Information Technology, CIT.
FLOSS development takes place in a functioning anarchy which cannot be tied down by corporations or governments. Software that is illegal in the US can be downloaded from Ireland or France. Long may the anarchy continue! Imagine what the world would be like if the 'authorities' controlled software development. Preservation of this freedom is the most important reason for supporting FLOSS.
I started to switch from DOS to Linux about 1995 and now use Libre Office,the GIMP, Firefox, Evolution, GNUCash, and VLC. I get highly frustrated when forced the use Microsoft alternatives.
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There are 10 kinds of people. Those who understand binary and those who don't.
Posts: 89 | From: Dunedin, NZ | Registered: Jun 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
Most people who write serious "open source" software are (self-)employed in the IT industry, and again most of them do programming (rather than other computer-related things) as a main part of their paid job. If all people stop buying commercial software, then the "open source" community will basically collapse together with the enterprises.
Perhaps all this can move to a model where people just pay companies for "service", whereas the programs as such are for free. That would be a kind of Gillette commercial model for IT (the razor is "given away", make money on the razor blades). But we are a fair bit away from this.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Trin
Shipmate
# 12100
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Posted
I tried to switch from windows to Ubuntu about a month ago but it just isn't quite "there".
I haven't quite given up yet but I'm dissapointed.
The biggest problem for me is that there is no MS Access equivalent. The Libre Office database is years behind. A game ender for me. You can't even open ms access databases.
Posts: 442 | From: UK | Registered: Nov 2006
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Our church secretary has OpenOffice on her home computer; we have the presentation program WordPress on or church laptop.
Both have compatability issues, the first when people send her (some) Word and .dat files, the second when one tries to show PowerPoint slide-shows with any animations or fonts that it does not possess.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Perhaps all this can move to a model where people just pay companies for "service", whereas the programs as such are for free. That would be a kind of Gillette commercial model for IT (the razor is "given away", make money on the razor blades). But we are a fair bit away from this.
It is already happening, and not just in FLOSS. You don't pay for google unless you want advanced features. Ubuntu is free because Canonical (the parent company) provided consultancy. These seem to be the two common models: a free version (though not necessarily open source) and you pay for extra features or to provide the product free and make money from consultancy/customisation work. And of course, in Google's case, using the size of your customer base to make you attractive to advertisers. Mozilla (Firefox/Thunderbird) apparently gets paid $200,000/year by Google to have it as the default search engine (of course you can change it but most people don't bother).
The IT version of Gillette is the printer market.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
You folks know that the Android operating system on smart phones and tablets is open source right? Some 70% of phones are running this as Apple loses market share. You can download the operating system for free, modify it, write apps for it etc. I have it running in the open source version of VirtualBox which is a computer emulator. I run it in Linux Mint.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
You folks know that the Android operating system on smart phones and tablets is open source right? Some 70% of phones are running this as Apple loses market share.
Yes, and this demonstrates very neatly that open source can have proprietary interests driving it.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Or to put it more bluntly, if you have an Android OS on your mobile, you paid for it.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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marzipan
Shipmate
# 9442
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
There's a reason no architect building anything larger than a garden shed uses open source software. Just for grins, I did a web search for "open source alternatives for Vectorworks". That's the phrasing that google suggested when I started typing it in. I was able to come up with three programs fairly quickly, but their definition of "alternative" was pretty loose. Two of those programs were 2D only.
<snip>
We pay for the software because the free drawing programs simply aren't powerful enough and won't do what we need them to do. (I'd be better off going back to an old-fashioned drafting table than using most of them). The professionals who designed the program deserve their remuneration for providing a program which makes my job easier, not harder.
I use AutoCAD every day for my work. (engineering, not architecture, but many of the programs are the same). Here are some of the reasons my* company just shelled out several grand for licences for the latest version:
- marketing - when we are trying to sell our drafting services to clients, they like to hear that we use the industry standard software so that they can easily integrate our drawings into their system (and we can extract information from theirs).
- professionalism - It stops us looking like a bunch of cowboys. If we can't be bothered paying for our software, what else is there that we can't be bothered doing?
- training - We probably could use some random open source program but (as OB has said), it would probably be less powerful, less intuitive to work. Most people in this industry already know how to operate it, so it's one less thing we have to teach new people.
- integration - We work for quite a lot of clients, generally as a subconsultant. The company name on the drawings is theirs, not ours, so our drawings have to be in the same styles as theirs are. There are other drafting programs out there, but .dwg format is the main one if everyone is using the same software, your drawings don't suddenly look different at the other end of the email.
There are probably other reasons too, but these are probably the ones which would be used to justify the cost.
Here's another thing - most engineering calculations are done on computer these days. There's quite a few different specialist programs around for steel, concrete, timber calculations. Some are developed by the manufacturers of specific components and are given away to encourage people to use their products, but the general design calculation programs need to be paid for.
And I'm glad - I don't want the safe design of homes, bridges, offices depending on people's good nature. I want the programmers to be paid for developing a useful tool just the same as my company would be paid for producing the calculations and drawings. Especially since if there were any errors in the program that led to unsafe calcs, there would be a) someone to pin the blame on b) someone to fix the program so it was safe in future. Of course, I would rather that never happened in the first place - and a company providing paid for software has a massive incentive not to fuck up in that way. Some randomer open sourcing something might not have the resources to test the program and iron out all the glitches, especially if they need to earn a living as well.
Maybe some of the licences could be less pricey - would stop people pirating it all the time - but that doesn't mean all software needs to be completely free.
*doesn't belong to me of course!
(TL,DR: you get what you pay for)
[code fix]
[ 31. January 2014, 16:11: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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formerly cheesymarzipan.
Now containing 50% less cheese
Posts: 917 | From: nowhere in particular | Registered: May 2005
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Philip Charles
Ship's cutler
# 618
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Posted
There are considerable economic advantages in using FLOSS if the conditions are right. Software is a cost whether is is bought or written specially.
Three examples.
IBM sells hardware, but it also needs software to run on it. 10-15 years ago it decided to shift to GNU/Linux at considerable cost. Its software engineers put a lot of effort into developing Linux and they released this work into the Linux community which then maintained and enhanced this software. IBM has lower software costs and Linux is enriched. AIX, IBM's original operating system takes second place.
Apache is a server (a web server runs the Ship-of-fools site) which was patched together (a patchy server) by a number webmasters who wanted a high quality server. By cooperating they improved the quality of the software and reduced costs, it is also publicly available. 40% of the servers currently on line use Apache. nginx (engine X) is a similar project with a 15% share. The quality must be high to achieve these percentages.
Sun Microsystems had about 60,000 (IIRC) people sitting in front of computer screens at a considerable software cost. So it bought Star Office from it German developers improved it and made a FLOSS version available as Open Office. Sun got a cheap office suite improved by the FLOSS community and we got Open Office.
It is possible that a large architectural firm may decide that commercial software is too expensive and sponsor a FLOSS version.
Those who are dissatisfied with Libre Office should upgrade. New versions come out several time a year.
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There are 10 kinds of people. Those who understand binary and those who don't.
Posts: 89 | From: Dunedin, NZ | Registered: Jun 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
no prophet's OP said:
quote:
no-one actually must pay for any software
I'm sure these various open-source solutions have their merits, but my point is that even if they are free for the end user, they do not cost nothing to develop, and proprietary interests are involved:
quote:
Originally posted by Philip Charles:
10-15 years ago [IBM] decided to shift to GNU/Linux at considerable cost...
Sun Microsystems...bought Star Office...
I think this debate is often presented as greedy, evil, rights-mad corporations enslaving us to proprietary software on the one hand and long-haired, altruistic, saintly developers giving away their skills and energy to the community out of the sheer kindness of their hearts for absolutely nothing in return on the other. The reality is much more complex and there are financial interests underlying both models. Open source may be a legitimate choice, but I don't think it's the obvious and/or morally superior solution some seem to claim it is.
I don't think the open-source ethos could survive without the proprietary environment: they are symbiotic.
[ 01. February 2014, 06:48: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Philip Charles
Ship's cutler
# 618
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Posted
quote:
The reality is much more complex and there are financial interests underlying both models. Open source may be a legitimate choice, but I don't think it's the obvious and/or morally superior solution some seem to claim it is.
There is common misconception which causes considerable confusion. FLOSS is not free/no-cost. In fact it is free/do-what-you-like-with-it (libre). People can charge what they like for it, but some are charitable and give it away.
The strength of FLOSS is its development process. Anyone supplying such software is obliged to make the source code (the stuff programmers write) for that software available. This condition applies to large corporations as well as individuals. As well as economic advantages the development process is extremely secure and robust, the code is inspected by many independent sets of eyes. I have had a nominal firewall ever since I have run Linux and never had a hint of a nasty, and this is not good luck.
The FLOSS model has a weakness for J.Random User caused by a lack of salespeople in a nice computer shop. These people can explain how programmes work, solve problems and above all feed back to the developers what people want. FLOSS is so cheap that there is no way these salespeople can be paid.
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There are 10 kinds of people. Those who understand binary and those who don't.
Posts: 89 | From: Dunedin, NZ | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
quote:
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I can't make OpenOffice, which is otherwise fine, do nested stuff, as in things identified as A, B, with other things inside numbered, and then lower case letters, and then numbers as i,ii and so on. Hair tearing out stuff, needed for meetings.
Does the option in format "Bullets and Numbering" work?
...
(mind you I have problems getting it to work nicely in MSWord, so I wouldn't be surprised if it's not easy when actually trying to do stuff in either Open/Libre)
...
Have tried that sort of thing, but it usually fouls up the stuff I have already entered.
That I can well identify with, I can't make lists/bullet points behave nicely either when I need them to (on either). Your phrasing suggested you couldn't do it at all, sorry.
I was pleasantly surprised how easy it was (on both) for a single toy nested list though on a blank page. So I've learned something from this, maybe (given what I use lists for) I can change my style to fit it.
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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Amorya
Ship's tame galoot
# 2652
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Posted
It is very hard getting people to pay for software.
I write apps. I've recently released a new one (see sig). I'm in the enviable position of having written it as a side project, rather than as my main full time employment, so there isn't quite as much riding on it as there might be. So I've priced it at something higher than many apps cost, but is more like what it's worth. (An app is not easier to develop than a program for a desktop computer, but sadly in consumer perception, value seems to correlate with screen size.)
Some consumers go to great lengths to justify pirating apps, and one of the popular excuses is "It should be free". They ignore the costs involved (in my case, including paying to license the data, which is a non-trivial sum). They ignore the value of the developer's time: the months of designing, coding, debugging and testing that are required to produce a functional product.
I'm not against open source code. I've released a fair bit of it myself, but it's mostly useful routines that will make another developer's life easier, rather than complete products. I don't think open source is the right model for consumer-facing software, firstly because developers deserve to get paid for their work, and secondly because open source software often turns into a sort of design by committee, where every conceivable option is thrown in just in case someone finds it useful, making it unintuitive to use. The sort of focus where you trim the problem down to its bare minimum and ship that as your 1.0 doesn't tend to happen in open source (where projects often take years or decades to hit 1.0).
I guess my main argument is: if you want there to be nice things, you have to pay for them, otherwise nobody will make them. (And that's not even getting into the other money-making schemes that people use when an up-front charge doesn't work: adverts that track your every move; freemium software where you need to spend hundreds of pounds on 'gems' to get anywhere. Or worse, the business model of "make it free, then sell the company to Google, and screw all our existing users".)
Posts: 2383 | From: Coventry | Registered: Apr 2002
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dv
Shipmate
# 15714
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Posted
I'd like people to have paid employment so I do not begrudge paying for things I use.
It's rather like I avoid those do it yourself "let's make everyone unemployed and render no service" lanes at the supermarket.
Folk are very keen to parade their virtuousness about Fairtrade overseas... while happily stiffing people who are trying to earn an honest crust for an honest day's work here.
Posts: 70 | From: Lancs UK | Registered: Jun 2010
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
This is interesting:
gratis versus libre
quote:
Gratis versus libre is the distinction between two meanings of the English adjective "free"; namely, "for zero price" (gratis) and "with little or no restriction" (libre).
At my business we don't pay for software but we pay for the upkeep of the server. So no restriction on use and no cost to the software, but do pay for maintenance of the machines and how they run.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Prester John
Shipmate
# 5502
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
At my business we don't pay for software but we pay for the upkeep of the server. So no restriction on use and no cost to the software, but do pay for maintenance of the machines and how they run.
More likely the price you're paying to maintain the server has the cost of the software baked into the hardware maintance cost.
Posts: 884 | From: SF Bay Area | Registered: Feb 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Nope. No software costs with the server. We have a local company which tweaked Zimbra for us, no Window$, runs on Linux. No software costs specifically. But deployment costs. It's a little ideological of us to avoid large companies and work with other small businesses.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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