Ship of Fools: Akedia

Thread: Akedia Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Majorminor (# 17967) on :

Does anyone have any knowledge or experience of akedia (I think it's sloth-ish)? Could you point me to any good resources about it?
Thanks, in anticipation.

Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :

I can't be bothered.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

Yes. I've seen it more usually spelt as accidie, or acedia, and have been reading about this recently. It's spiritual sloth, and the early monastics were quite familiar with it. It later became amalgamated into the concept of sloth generally, which in view of what it is seems a bit of a mistake.

Accidie is an insidious thing that starts little by little, a skipped prayer session here, a lack of attention there, until one day the sufferer wakes up and realizes that the prayer life has either gone completely or been replaced by charitable intentions, or that maybe even that has gone and it's all too much effort just at this precise moment. S/he makes a mental resolve, not particularly firmly, to resume prayer later that night, or perhaps tomorrow when feeling less tired and fed up and more in the mood... but for now wouldn't a computer game feel better and be more fun...

With accidie, tomorrow doesn't come. (And the computer game can be more just something to do, than real, satisfying fun.)

The symptoms resemble depression in that accidie is marked by listlessness, world-weariness and general dissatisfaction with life and the slow, gradual erosion of the spiritual life. The monastics had a list of symptoms, including one that the monk afflicted would find fault with pretty much everything and everyone in his community, and spend his time longing to be part of some other, distant community - if only that could happen, everything would be so much better. The afflicted monk would also be capable of starting arguments even with himself if there was nobody around or getting really annoyed with inanimate objects. It's tied up with spiritual pride because anyone with accidie, in finding fault with others, sets him/herself up as a standard to judge others by.

The monastics knew the distinction between accidie and depression and for cases of accidie, the remedy was a distinct lack of sympathy and the monk was immediately put to hard work.

I'll see if I can find the description I was looking at a few weeks ago - it lists the symptoms pretty clearly.

[ 01. February 2014, 09:37: Message edited by: Ariel ]

Posted by Majorminor (# 17967) on :

Very helpful, Ariel, thank you. The description is sounding alarmingly familiar, but I'm not looking forward to the fix of no sympathy and lots of hard work.
I'm wondering, too, if this issue is prevalent among Christians, either lay or clergy, who have been in ministry for a long time?

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I can't be bothered.

...

...

Took me a minute, but,
[Snigger]

Posted by Majorminor (# 17967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I can't be bothered.
...

...

Took me a minute, but,

Posted by Majorminor (# 17967) on :

Sorry- newbie error with buttons.

Yes, I thought 'how rude!' Then the penny dropped. Am very slow...

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

I think it's much more prevalent generally than is recognized, amongst clergy, laity and non-Christians alike. It probably gets treated as depression.

Cassian had quite a lot to say on it. You might find this more modern take on "the demon of the noonday" interesting. Cassian's original (ok, translated) is all here, though in somewhat archaic English and there is a lot of it.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

It simply sounds human to me.

It's hard to keep up any discipline long term once it has lost the excitement of newness.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

It's marked by more of an intensity of apathy generally, not just with prayer life, if that makes sense.

Posted by Majorminor (# 17967) on :

Yes. I like the description that it makes the spiritual life seem like a chore, rather than a gift of God's grace. Therefore, all spiritual exercises and acts of service become either a chore, or boring.
I think it's more widespread than I'd imagined.

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

Acedia, or despondency, is one of the Eight Thoughts. The others are gluttony, lust, greed, anger, sadness, pride, and vainglory.

In addition to Ariel's decent summary, there is the notion that the demon of acedia induces the monk to leave his cell, engaging in travel to distract himself from the pursuit of stillness. St. Benedict's gyrovagues may be suffering from acedia.

Oddly enough, the practice of hospitality can be a symptom of acedia.

One of the addicts I work with aptly described acedia as "The Fuck Its."

Robert Sinkewicz's Evagrius of Pontus: The Greek Ascetic Corpus provides much on the Thoughts, including acedia. The writing is surprisingly accessible.

Gabriel Bunge in his Despondency: The Spiritual Teaching of Evagrius Ponticus on Acedia pulls Evagrian teaching on Despondency together into one nice little book.

John Climacus's Ladder of Divine Ascent has an excellent chapter on Despondency and its inter-relatedness to the other Thoughts.

Christopher C. H. Cook in his The Philokalia and the Inner Life: On Passions and Prayer goes into great detail how the Thoughts assault us, looking into their relation to psychotherapy and prayer.

Finally, Kathleen Norris has written a popular memoir, Acedia and Me: A Marriage, Monks, and A Writer's Life.

[ 01. February 2014, 12:38: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]

Posted by Yonatan (# 11091) on :

In mental health terms, sounds very similar to dysthymia.

Posted by Majorminor (# 17967) on :

Speaking as a Ship's Apprentice, who knew that the Ship could supply such interesting and stimulating posts? Many thanks [Smile]

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
The symptoms resemble depression in that accidie is marked by listlessness, world-weariness and general dissatisfaction with life and the slow, gradual erosion of the spiritual life. The monastics had a list of symptoms, including one that the monk afflicted would find fault with pretty much everything and everyone in his community, and spend his time longing to be part of some other, distant community - if only that could happen, everything would be so much better. The afflicted monk would also be capable of starting arguments even with himself if there was nobody around or getting really annoyed with inanimate objects. It's tied up with spiritual pride because anyone with accidie, in finding fault with others, sets him/herself up as a standard to judge others by.

The monastics knew the distinction between accidie and depression and for cases of accidie, the remedy was a distinct lack of sympathy and the monk was immediately put to hard work.

Ariel, can you elaborate on the difference between accidie and depression? They sound very similar and as someone who suffers with depression, I always thought "accidie" was just the Church taking the opportunity to bitch about people like me.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

They are quite similar. However, what you don't find so much in acedia is the loss of self-esteem characteristic of depression. With depression, your own imperfections are magnified and everybody else seems to have got the knack/is smarter/better at whatever it is; no matter how hard you try you will never succeed because you're basically rubbish. With acedia, everybody else's imperfections are magnified and they can become immensely irritating. Your own standards become a sort of benchmark: if others don't live up to your expectations, they've failed. This is what I mean by the "spiritual pride" element of acedia and why it's different to depression. An acedic can be quite intolerant, arrogant even: there is an element of spiritual pride to this that's lacking in depression.

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
There is the notion that the demon of acedia induces the monk to leave his cell, engaging in travel to distract himself from the pursuit of stillness. St. Benedict's gyrovagues may be suffering from acedia.

I've sometimes thought that the modern-day obsession with social media and checking phones/the internet constantly is one form of this. Retreats are quite right when they usually insist on no phones or internet.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

Don't you have to add some complainativeness to depression to get accedia?

I would say the equation is:

ennui + procrastination + whining.

It's the feeling that you must do something, but motivation is a problem, and no sooner than you try to start you find yourself whining about the burden.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Majorminor:
Speaking as a Ship's Apprentice, who knew that the Ship could supply such interesting and stimulating posts? Many thanks

{Gently levitates.}

Strangely naive and inattentive this apprentice is. Witty, erudite, and scintillating we always are.

Get you to the hold of Ship and with a toothbrush scrub walls, floor, ceiling. Use the Force of your elbow grease. Levitate, you may learn to.

{Turns slow somersault in mid-air. Stops upside down.}

And welcome to the Ship you are.

{Floats away upside down, in search of very dark chocolate.}

Posted by Desert Daughter (# 13635) on :

Acadia/Depression is very often the price one pays for understanding things.

There seems to be a tendency amongst some to try to clearly differentiate Acedia from Depression. After all, Acedia is considered to be a "sin", and depression has, in modern discourse, been clearly declared to be an "illness", hence 'not-evil'.

In that vein, the man afflicted by acedia is said to have a superiority complex, thinking himself superior to his fellow men, and that of course is a big no-no in postmodern discourse.

Whereas the poor chap who is afflicted by depression suffers from an inferiority complex, which immediately makes him an object of concern, care, and various attempts by well-meaning others to "uplift" him, since, in the same postmodern discourse of careful PC-ness, we are all equally wonderful, and all equally "okay".

All very nice and very fuzzy-cosy.
But it ain't that simple.

Acedia is more complex than that, the "noonday demon" also (and heavily) strikes hermits (who are not surrounded by mediocre brethren to whom they could feel superior).

Just as "depression" changes its meaning throughout the ages, and we should not take the latest pronouncements of (heavily culture-dependent) bodies such as the American Psychological Association on the matter as The Gospel (TM), Acedia too has meant different things to different writers throughout the ages.

So seeking to sharply distinguish between the two is a merely pseudo-academic (and rather futile) exercise; the Zeitgeist of course might have it otherwise, but in the end both are afflictions of the soul and as such, sin or not, must be addresed with a judicious mixture of prayer, discipline (as in "pulling oneself together") and expert help.

Where Acedia can indeed be considered to be a "sin" is not so much the "superiority-complex" bit, but in one's refusal to let God operate through one, to be God's operator, so to speak, to be active for and through God. The story of Elijah, inofficial Patron-Saint of all clinically and otherwise depressed, is a good example

[ 02. February 2014, 08:03: Message edited by: Desert Daughter ]

Posted by Majorminor (# 17967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:

quote:
Originally posted by Majorminor:
Speaking as a Ship's Apprentice, who knew that the Ship could supply such interesting and stimulating posts? Many thanks
{Gently levitates.}

Strangely naive and inattentive this apprentice is. Witty, erudite, and scintillating we always are.

Get you to the hold of Ship and with a toothbrush scrub walls, floor, ceiling. Use the Force of your elbow grease. Levitate, you may learn to.

{Turns slow somersault in mid-air. Stops upside down.}

And welcome to the Ship you are.

{Floats away upside down, in search of very dark chocolate.}

Posted by Majorminor (# 17967) on :

Am craving your mercy, Golden Key. I would love to scrub the ship with my tooth brush, but me akedia's flared up again. The flesh us willing, but the spirit's weak.

[ 03. February 2014, 08:15: Message edited by: Majorminor ]

Posted by passer (# 13329) on :

With timely serendipity, I notice that we have a new shipmate called Acedia. I wonder if (s)he will be bothered (HT to Ingo) to comment in this thread. [Biased]

▲

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

DD - I think it might be unwise to put the phrase "pulling yourself together" anywhere near "depression", or you might get torn limb from limb.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

Just agreeing with Desert Daughter, that I'm not sure that you can make sharp distinctions between accidie and depression. For one thing, depression is a plant with many different blooms, and is not monolithic.

I suppose that a kind of spiritual barrenness might develop, which was not depression.

But professionals working in the field can be empirical and not a priori. Each person has their own assembly of different moods, motivations, ideas, and so on, and they don't have to be placed in one category or another.

Posted by Desert Daughter (# 13635) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
DD - I think it might be unwise to put the phrase "pulling yourself together" anywhere near "depression", or you might get torn limb from limb.

-- yes, well, I'm not really into this touchy-feely stuff. It's very post-modern anglo-saxon. And I'm afraid I'm neither... so I'll just bear the brunt of the usual suspects (*shrugs*)

-- more seriously, please note that in my post I said

quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
a judicious mixture of prayer, discipline (as in "pulling oneself together") and expert help.

So one must discern as to what helps in a particular case. I'm not saying that sometimes pills and/or therapy don't do the trick.

And I do agree with this:

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
For one thing, depression is a plant with many different blooms, and is not monolithic.

-I'd say a plant with many
thorns and the occasional (quite beautiful) bloom. Many creative geniuses were afflicted by acedia/depression. There is even literature on seeing these afflictions as a gift from God, the gift of insight and sensitivity, often paid for by a suffering of the soul which often cannot bear those insights.

[ 05. February 2014, 09:59: Message edited by: Desert Daughter ]

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Point is, DD, many people with depression have had ignorant acquaintances tell them to just "pull themselves together". It's unhelpful and betrays a complete lack of insight. It implies it's the depressive's own fault for being depressed and refuses to accept it's a real illness.

If doing that is "touchy feely" then so be it, but the alternative is what turns depression into suicide.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

Desert Daughter

Yes, my 'blooms' was a bit ironic.

But certainly while depression is in general an absolute twat-winder, there are creative depressions, spiritual depressions, and so on, where a new impetus, or a new direction in life, is preceded by depression. In fact, I think it's quite common - for one thing, many creative people go through guilt before and after a creative piece of work. A touch of Prometheus, maybe, stealing the fire from the gods, and so on, for which crime, naturally enough, your liver will be ripped out. Or something.

I used to work with novelists and artists, and got used to their deep depressions before and after a major piece of work. Pre-natal and post-natal.

[ 05. February 2014, 10:20: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

Golden Key,

Good effort child*, but if you were truly a master, you would not need to find the chocolate. It would already be melting on your tongue.

*Well, spiritual child. [Biased]

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
DD - I think it might be unwise to put the phrase "pulling yourself together" anywhere near "depression", or you might get torn limb from limb.
-- yes, well, I'm not really into this touchy-feely stuff. It's very post-modern anglo-saxon. And I'm afraid I'm neither... so I'll just bear the brunt of the usual suspects (*shrugs*)

-- more seriously, please note that in my post I said

quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
a judicious mixture of prayer, discipline (as in "pulling oneself together") and expert help.
So one must discern as to what helps in a particular case. I'm not saying that sometimes pills and/or therapy don't do the trick.

And I do agree with this:

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
For one thing, depression is a plant with many different blooms, and is not monolithic.

-I'd say a plant with many
thorns and the occasional (quite beautiful) bloom. Many creative geniuses were afflicted by acedia/depression. There is even literature on seeing these afflictions as a gift from God, the gift of insight and sensitivity, often paid for by a suffering of the soul which often cannot bear those insights.

Oh for fuck's sake, it's not 'touchy-feely' to call depression an illness BECAUSE IT IS AN ILLNESS. If you'd ever had depression you'd damn well know it's not any kind of gift, so stop with the offensive and ableist horseshit. For a Christian to marginalise the ill and disabled like that is disgusting and you should be ashamed of yourself.

DEPRESSION IS AN ILLNESS. PEOPLE DIE OF DEPRESSION. How's that for touchy-feely?

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

Well, I will defend Desert Daughter in one sense - that depression can haunt creative people, who can have a mild form of bipolar, in that they rise and sink, according to their creative rhythms.

It just adds to my idea that depression is not a monolithic entity, but comprises many different forms. It can presage something positive happening in life; but of course, often it doesn't.

Posted by FooloftheShip (# 15579) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
DD - I think it might be unwise to put the phrase "pulling yourself together" anywhere near "depression", or you might get torn limb from limb.

A duty for which I volunteer.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

hosting/

quote:
Originally posted by FooloftheShip:

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
DD - I think it might be unwise to put the phrase "pulling yourself together" anywhere near "depression", or you might get torn limb from limb.
A duty for which I volunteer.

Kindly do all such volunteering in Hell or not at all.

/hosting

Posted by FooloftheShip (# 15579) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
hosting/

quote:
Originally posted by FooloftheShip:

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
DD - I think it might be unwise to put the phrase "pulling yourself together" anywhere near "depression", or you might get torn limb from limb.
A duty for which I volunteer.
Kindly do all such volunteering in Hell or not at all.

/hosting

Apologies for the poor choice of location.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
yes, well, I'm not really into this touchy-feely stuff. It's very post-modern anglo-saxon.

Oh, please. [Roll Eyes]

quote:
I'd say a plant with many
thorns and the occasional (quite beautiful) bloom. Many creative geniuses were afflicted by acedia/depression. There is even literature on seeing these afflictions as a gift from God, the gift of insight and sensitivity, often paid for by a suffering of the soul which often cannot bear those insights.

File under "God is an ogre". [Mad]

Depression is often a terminal illness. I've lost people. The Ship has lost people. I nearly died from it, long ago.

{Dices DD's *ideas* with rusty farm implements; stamps on them; and then tosses them down the shaft of an outhouse.}

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

But again, that's monolithic thinking. Depression comprises many things, including self-destructive and suicidal thinking; but it also plagues some creative people, who feel ghastly before and after major creative work.

I don't think Desert Daughter was saying that all depression is creative; but some of it is.

Posted by Bullfrog. (# 11014) on :

I do remember when I was in undergrad I always fell into a deep funk for a few days before commencing on a major paper.

That's a very, very different animal than clinical depression, but it seemed like an odd trend to me.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:

Just as "depression" changes its meaning throughout the ages, and we should not take the latest pronouncements of (heavily culture-dependent) bodies such as the American Psychological Association on the matter as The Gospel (TM), Acedia too has meant different things to different writers throughout the ages.

Good think religion is just the plain and simple truth.

quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:

So seeking to sharply distinguish between the two is a merely pseudo-academic (and rather futile) exercise; the Zeitgeist of course might have it otherwise, but in the end both are afflictions of the soul and as such, sin or not, must be addresed with a judicious mixture of prayer, discipline (as in "pulling oneself together") and expert help.

So failure to shed depression is spiritual failure? Whilst one certainly needs to participate in battling one's own depression, it is manifestly unhelpful to attribute difficulty in doing so with lack of discipline.
BTW, in what way is "afflictions of the soul" anything other than a different way to say sin?

quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
-I'd say a plant with many
thorns and the occasional (quite beautiful) bloom. Many creative geniuses were afflicted by acedia/depression. There is even literature on seeing these afflictions as a gift from God, the gift of insight and sensitivity, often paid for by a suffering of the soul which often cannot bear those insights.

Rubbish. Many creative geniuses were not so afflicted.

Posted by StevHep (# 17198) on :

People who haven't lived in monastic communities might not quite grasp the absolute centrality of the practice of obedience. This obedience must be given in full to the Rule and the Superior. Acidie represents a kind of disobedience in the sense that although there may be outward compliance there is an inward compulsion to judge these things unfavourably.

The consequence of this is that a sense of futility begins to pervade you as you carry out the requirements of Rule and Superior because you 'know' that there is a better way and that if you were in charge things would be different. Additionally this means that you put more effort than you should into doing the things that distract you from the actions you think are futile and look for excuses to get out of the routine, such as offering hospitality or going on journeys.

The cure is humility, accepting that the Rule is an embodiment of a greater wisdom than you possess and that the Superior had experience and insight which you yet lack.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
I do remember when I was in undergrad I always fell into a deep funk for a few days before commencing on a major paper.

That's a very, very different animal than clinical depression, but it seemed like an odd trend to me.

ISTM, that would be stress, depression's 1st cousin.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by StevHep:

The cure is humility, accepting that the Rule is an embodiment of a greater wisdom than you possess and that the Superior had experience and insight which you yet lack.

Sounds like North Korea.

Posted by StevHep (# 17198) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:
Originally posted by StevHep:

The cure is humility, accepting that the Rule is an embodiment of a greater wisdom than you possess and that the Superior had experience and insight which you yet lack.
Sounds like North Korea.

Well, the Kingdom of Sauron was a miserable counterfeit of the Kingdoms of the Elves. And Saruman in Isengard merely imitated Mordor. What you need to look at is not simply an act in its outward manifestations but also in its inward fountain springs . A voluntary obedience offered to a Superior who does not particularly desire to exercise authority is qualitatively different from compulsory obedience to a power hungry despotism.

Posted by Desert Daughter (# 13635) on :

One. last. time.
What I said was

quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
one must discern as to what helps in a particular case. I'm not saying that sometimes pills and/or therapy don't do the trick.

okay?

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
File under "God is an ogre".

oh, come on. Then God would really need to be filed as an ogre any time someone falls ill, is treated unjustly, falls vicctim to an earthquake etc etc...

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
So failure to shed depression is spiritual failure?

I did not say that, did I? I don't think any of my previous posts linkes depression to spiritual failure. Don't put things into my mouth I never said, please.

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
BTW, in what way is "afflictions of the soul" anything other than a different way to say sin?

I don't want to go into different "definitions" of "sin", but I do not think an affliction is necessarily a sin.

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Rubbish. Many creative geniuses were not so afflicted

But many are.

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I don't think Desert Daughter was saying that all depression is creative; but some of it is.

exactly.

quote:
Originally posted by StevHep:
A voluntary obedience offered to a Superior who does not particularly desire to exercise authority is qualitatively different from compulsory obedience to a power hungry despotism.

Well said and very true. [Overused]

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Rubbish. Many creative geniuses were not so afflicted
But many are.

Considering how many modern authors I know of who are not depressive in any way, I have trouble believing clinical depression has any link to creativity except in our minds. Certainly there is a kind of downness that can come after finishing a great work and a different kind that can precede it, but that's different. I would be very interested in seeing even a little statistical evidence that clinical depression has any link with creativity.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:

quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Rubbish. Many creative geniuses were not so afflicted
But many are.
Considering how many modern authors I know of who are not depressive in any way, I have trouble believing clinical depression has any link to creativity except in our minds. Certainly there is a kind of downness that can come after finishing a great work and a different kind that can precede it, but that's different. I would be very interested in seeing even a little statistical evidence that clinical depression has any link with creativity.

I noticed that you slipped in the word 'clinical' there - has anybody else used that term?

Well, I got used to working with creative people over several decades, and some of them used to have what I came to call pre-natal and post-natal depression, around a major piece of work.

There are certainly different facets to this - for example, some people experience considerable guilt over being creative (the Promethean syndrome); some people feel it is worthless; and there is a kind of 'birth-pang' associated with creativity for some.

It can vary from mild to intense - in fact, I've known novelists swear that their latest work is worthless, and they are tempted to destroy it.

I also think that some creative people have mild to severe bipolar disorder - their creative period corresponds to mania, and then they slump.

I believe there are some studies on this, but don't have links right now. It is certainly not universal, but I've found it not uncommon.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by StevHep:
A voluntary obedience offered to a Superior who does not particularly desire to exercise authority is qualitatively different from compulsory obedience to a power hungry despotism.

OK, so that Superior is God. But his will is mediated through people - and they look pretty darn controlling and often arbitrary to me. No wonder people become low in spirit.

I would think God's Spirit would treat us with love, kindness and gentleness - not lay us low.

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:

quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Rubbish. Many creative geniuses were not so afflicted
But many are.
Considering how many modern authors I know of who are not depressive in any way, I have trouble believing clinical depression has any link to creativity except in our minds. Certainly there is a kind of downness that can come after finishing a great work and a different kind that can precede it, but that's different. I would be very interested in seeing even a little statistical evidence that clinical depression has any link with creativity.
I noticed that you slipped in the word 'clinical' there - has anybody else used that term?

Most relevantly Desert Daughter has at least once, but Bullfrog also has.

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, I got used to working with creative people over several decades, and some of them used to have what I came to call pre-natal and post-natal depression, around a major piece of work.

<cut relevant stuff to avoid giant quote>

I also think that some creative people have mild to severe bipolar disorder - their creative period corresponds to mania, and then they slump.

I believe there are some studies on this, but don't have links right now. It is certainly not universal, but I've found it not uncommon.

I guess I was using the word clinical because I was trying to ascertain how disabling this depression is. And it may be that creative people are more likely than average to have even disabling depression around their creation. For one thing it wouldn't have to be way higher than the rest of the population to be worth noting. It's just that I think creative people are also somewhat more likely to have circumstances--say unreliable income because they only make money when they sell pieces/books/stories/get an acting gig--that would encourage depression. If I'm right, this would be relevant, but not directly related to their creativity.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

This book seems to be well known on this topic, although I haven't read it.

http://www.amazon.com/Touched-Fire-Manic-Depressive-Artistic-Temperament/dp/068483183X

There is a danger of toppling over into 'tortured artist' kind of lazy thinking, but professionals shouldn't be doing that. Empirical, empirical, not a priori.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Majorminor:
I like the description that it makes the spiritual life seem like a chore, rather than a gift of God's grace. Therefore, all spiritual exercises and acts of service become either a chore, or boring.

I think I was born with it.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

Well, I got used to working with creative people over several decades, and some of them used to have what I came to call pre-natal and post-natal depression, around a major piece of work.

There are certainly different facets to this - for example, some people experience considerable guilt over being creative (the Promethean syndrome); some people feel it is worthless; and there is a kind of 'birth-pang' associated with creativity for some.

And I know people who are as creative an unadorned section of pavement who react the same. ISTM, it is about acceptance, doubt and stress.
IMO the "tortured genious" is an overused trope. In part because we allow behaviours in an artist that we do not in an engineer. "Oh, my design is worthless! I am a failure! That road curve is at least 20% less efficient than it could be! And a child could have done those drainage calcs."
Tantrum - Artist = sigh "Creatives." [Roll Eyes]

Tantrum - Engineer = "You're fired."

[ 06. February 2014, 16:15: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by StevHep:
The consequence of this is that a sense of futility begins to pervade you as you carry out the requirements of Rule and Superior because you 'know' that there is a better way and that if you were in charge things would be different.

...

The cure is humility, accepting that the Rule is an embodiment of a greater wisdom than you possess and that the Superior had experience and insight which you yet lack.

Unless, of course, you are wiser and posessed of more insight that the Superior, and your ideas would be better.

Your post is no more than "this is the way we've always done it" dressed up in pious language about humility.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

Well, I got used to working with creative people over several decades, and some of them used to have what I came to call pre-natal and post-natal depression, around a major piece of work.

There are certainly different facets to this - for example, some people experience considerable guilt over being creative (the Promethean syndrome); some people feel it is worthless; and there is a kind of 'birth-pang' associated with creativity for some.

And I know people who are as creative an unadorned section of pavement who react the same. ISTM, it is about acceptance, doubt and stress.
IMO the "tortured genious" is an overused trope. In part because we allow behaviours in an artist that we do not in an engineer. "Oh, my design is worthless! I am a failure! That road curve is at least 20% less efficient than it could be! And a child could have done those drainage calcs."
Tantrum - Artist = sigh "Creatives."
Tantrum - Engineer = "You're fired."

Are you saying that engineers are not creative? That surprises me.

Posted by StevHep (# 17198) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

I would think God's Spirit would treat us with love, kindness and gentleness - not lay us low.

Voluntary Obedience together with Voluntary Poverty are probably the monastic concepts that contemporary Western minds most struggle to comprehend. The virtue of obedience does not require any kind of corresponding virtue of command from ones human interlocutors. The key thing is a pruning of self will. It is a recognition that the roots not only of our sins but of our unhappinesses are to be found in an inordinate love of having our own way.

The discipline of obedience teaches us, eventually, that happiness proceeds from the love of God flowing unobstructedly into us and then through us to our neighbours. By the process which the philosopher Simone Weil called 'de creation' we demolish the self our ego has created in order to create the space that allows God to be God as He really is and us to be us as we really are and not the imagined simulacrums of both which currently inhabit our minds and hearts.

Obedience is a tool which leads to humility and humility is simply that state in which we see with clarity the truth about ourselves. Or as I recently put it in my blog-

quote:
The point here, which Mary above all others is qualified to make, is that in some sense 'humility' means the same thing as 'truth'. In understanding herself as being fragile and vulnerable and dependant upon the mercy of God, subject to an innumerable number of hazards of nature and man's design, any one of which could strike her down in an instant, the Virgin recognises the absolute truth about her status as a human.

Conceited Hearts and an Immaculate One

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[ 06. February 2014, 17:12: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quetzalcoatl,

I am not saying creativity and engineering are mutually exclusive. They are not, Leonardo being the most obvious example.
However, creativity is not a job requirement. One can quite literally design a perfectly functional, aesthetically pleasing bridge by the book.
One can also find creatives whose creativity is at minimum spec, so...

Posted by Majorminor (# 17967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:
Originally posted by Majorminor:
I like the description that it makes the spiritual life seem like a chore, rather than a gift of God's grace. Therefore, all spiritual exercises and acts of service become either a chore, or boring.
I think I was born with it.

Posted by Majorminor (# 17967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:
Originally posted by Majorminor:
I like the description that it makes the spiritual life seem like a chore, rather than a gift of God's grace. Therefore, all spiritual exercises and acts of service become either a chore, or boring.
I think I was born with it.

I can't tell whether you're serious, M the M. I'm also a tad nervous because 1) I'm clearly incapable of managing the 'quote' buttons successfully, and 2) I've inadvertedly started a depression versus accedie argument (now taken to Hell). [Overused]

Posted by Majorminor (# 17967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:
Originally posted by Majorminor:
I like the description that it makes the spiritual life seem like a chore, rather than a gift of God's grace. Therefore, all spiritual exercises and acts of service become either a chore, or boring.
I think I was born with it.

Posted by DOEPUBLIC (# 13042) on :

Unforced rhythms of grace.

Depression exists on a spectrum and as such can be perceived with the light shed upon the context.

The word 'depression' can be used loosely resulting sadly in a misunderstanding of its clinical reality.

Spiritual Depression can be distinguished from depressive symptoms in other parts of one's persona ( i.e. Physical, Emotional, Rational, Spiritual, Optional, Notional, Aspirational).

In addition, aspects of language, interpretation, socialising, empowerment and discernment can signal levels of disconnect, as one considers how personalised one's experience is.

The context of the Space being experienced in terms of Safety,Purpose, Access,Comfort, Expression also have implications.

The continuum of boundary, conflict, tension, pressure, stress, strain, distress, depression can also give insight.

In comparison Akedia, which I meet for the first time would appear a term to identify willful choice of a person to do not do what is perceived right. A deliberate choice to forcefully change an acceptable rhythm, disguised by small discrete choices.

Leading me to conclude that lack of compassion towards depression is a clear case of Akedia.

As an aside. Connection to the natural world allows the experiencing of a rhythm of life with continuity which can either resonate or dissonance.

Let's meet people where they are rather than where we would expect them to be. Otherwise it becomes 'depressing'

[ 09. February 2014, 15:48: Message edited by: DOEPUBLIC ]

Posted by DOEPUBLIC (# 13042) on :

'to do not do what' should read 'to not do what'

Posted by DOEPUBLIC (# 13042) on :

Would appear that DD may have got stuck up her own 'totem'pole. Demonstrating the disconnect that language can provide, especially when being clinically deconstructed without a deep sense of humanity.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

hosting/

Please keep the personal comments to the relevant Hell thread. Thank you for your cooperation.

/hosting

Posted by Hebdom (# 14685) on :

I have suffered from akedia on more than one occasion. My remedy is to discuss it with my spiritual director and/or confessor, determining beforehand that I will act on the advice given to me. That takes the element of self from it and weakens its power.

I have found Rowan William's Silence and Honey cakes helpful. Towards the back of the book there is a Q and A section where Williams is asked how he handles it.

"The only solution is to let myself be drawn deeper into the present moment....Opening the moment to God, letting yourself be drawn into its depth with him..."

Kathleen Norris has also written a book on it which I have heard is good, but haven't read.

Posted by Majorminor (# 17967) on :

Thanks, Hebdom. It was the response Rowan Williams gave in the QA appendix of his book that prompted my initial Q on this thread. I'm reading the Norris book now. Her description of akedia, as something which causes a breakdown of the believer's friendship with God, prompts me to think my issue isn't actually acedia, but depression. See above, and the subsequent thread on 'Hell' for further discussion on this.
But I'm very grateful to fellow shipmates for their descriptions, and pointers to other resources. [Overused]

Posted by DOEPUBLIC (# 13042) on :

Links I have collected during my illness

blog

[ 12. February 2014, 14:47: Message edited by: DOEPUBLIC ]

Posted by Anglo Catholic Relict (# 17213) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
Acadia/Depression is very often the price one pays for understanding things.

Nonsense.

quote:

There seems to be a tendency amongst some to try to clearly differentiate Acedia from Depression. After all, Acedia is considered to be a "sin", and depression has, in modern discourse, been clearly declared to be an "illness", hence 'not-evil'.

Depression is an illness, and is therefore not a sin. Nothing of the kind.

The kind of behaviour that might be a sin is that where the person has a choice; they can choose to be active or not, and they choose not to be. This is not what depression is; in depression our choices become immensely restricted, and our ability to deal with those choices even more so. In my own case, the most effective behaviour is to simply go to bed, as St Isaac of Syria recommends. This may look like sloth, but it is exactly the opposite; it is a protection against negative behaviours, and against attempting to engage with the world when I am particularly fragile and vulnerable.

Sin is only sin when we firstly know the difference between right and wrong, and secondly make a choice to do what we know to be wrong. There is absolutely no comparison to be made between the involuntary inactivity of depression and the voluntary inactivity of laziness.

It is not a sin to be unwell; if in doubt, remember this exchange:
'Who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?'
'Neither.'

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[ 12. February 2014, 15:35: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

Posted by DOEPUBLIC (# 13042) on :

perspective for the journey

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

Not sure I see the connection to acedia in those latest links, DOEPUBLIC? Maybe I'm being dumb. It's been a long day; this Host's brain is a bit jellified.

Posted by Hebdom (# 14685) on :

MajorMinor, pleased you have been able to discern which of the two it is, and [Votive]

for you as you seek recovery. It's always the first question I ask myself - akedia or depression - and with practice it becomes easier to tell. Akedia for me is a boredom with all things religious, but the other classic signs of depression are not there.

Posted by DOEPUBLIC (# 13042) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Not sure I see the connection to acedia in those latest links, DOEPUBLIC? Maybe I'm being dumb. It's been a long day; this Host's brain is a bit jellified.

Part of the thread and side thread in hell have related to experience of illness, in particular depression. I felt these links would be of help as they helped me.Feel free to remove at your leisure. (for consistency I posted on both threads)

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

No that's fine. I appreciate the overlap and thanks for the explanation. They do no harm where they are and they may help a Shipmate.

Posted by George Spigot (# 253) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Yonatan:
In mental health terms, sounds very similar to dysthymia.

Ah this is interesting. I've had it suggested that I suffer from dysthymia and when I looked it up it seemed like a correct diagnoses.

Posted by George Spigot (# 253) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
So seeking to sharply distinguish between the two is a merely pseudo-academic (and rather futile) exercise; the Zeitgeist of course might have it otherwise, but in the end both are afflictions of the soul and as such, sin or not, must be addresed with a judicious mixture of prayer, discipline (as in "pulling oneself together") and expert help.

Serious question. Are the anti-depressants I take to stop me wanting to kill myself interacting with my soul? Can souls be affected by material chemicals?

nb I don't necessarily believe in the existence of souls I ask more for the sake of argument.

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :

quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:

quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
So seeking to sharply distinguish between the two is a merely pseudo-academic (and rather futile) exercise; the Zeitgeist of course might have it otherwise, but in the end both are afflictions of the soul and as such, sin or not, must be addresed with a judicious mixture of prayer, discipline (as in "pulling oneself together") and expert help.
Serious question. Are the anti-depressants I take to stop me wanting to kill myself interacting with my soul? Can souls be affected by material chemicals?

nb I don't necessarily believe in the existence of souls I ask more for the sake of argument.

Interesting question, George. Yes, it depends on what you mean by soul, but if you take it minimally as the self, or the construct of self, then chemicals definitely interact with that, since it has a neurological correlate.

If you take soul more mystically, it is still embodied, and therefore affected by chemicals.

In fact, medication is indispensable for some people, as you indicate.

Splitting soul from body can lead to the dangerous view that one should stop taking medication, and simply pray. No.

Posted by StevHep (# 17198) on :

I am about to start taking a medication, fludrocortisone, which is known to sometimes provoke depression and suicidal thoughts so the question of the link between material causes and spiritual outcomes is a very live topic for me. I have no ready made answer to these questions and would love to hear what others might think.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

The simplest response I can give, within the limits (imposed and inherent) of this forum is that we are called upon to love God with all our heart, mind and strength.

Without splitting tripartite/bipartite/monopartite hairs and so on, I think that means using every aspect of our being to love God to the extent of our abilities. Inevitably these may be limited in one way or another.

Often, due to our human condition, addressing a problem in one realm will inevitably have adverse knock-on effects in another.

Sometimes we are in a position to weigh up the costs/benefits of a given solution and sometimes we have little choice. If we do our best to come to a responsible decision with the help of God, I don't think our soul is going to suffer any long-term consequences.

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