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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Funny women - PC gone Mad!!!
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
Yes, it's another political correctness gone mad thread. The BBC has said that it won't film anymore panel-based comedy shows that have all male lineups...
BBC TV boss: No all-male panel shows
Well forgive me if I've misunderstood the situation, but shouldn't they aim to just be funny rather than act as vehicles for social mobility?
Perhaps some women just don't cope well in these shows because the men are more forceful. Well fair enough, perhaps the women need to be more forceful. Or would it be better to have an all-women show, where they could be funny without the testosterone-fuelled atmosphere that exists in panel shows today.
Personally I like these shows and as long as they make me laugh I don't care whether there are women on them or not.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Spoken like a man.
Comedy, like most entertainment, is male dominated. The problem here lies that even when there is no conscious intent, people have a tendency to group with those most similar to them.
A white, male, middle-aged golf enthusiast is more likely to hire a white, male, middle aged golf enthusiast than a black young, female video gamer; even with the same qualifications. Even with the hirer not being racist.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
It's farcical.
Some women comedian's (Jo Brand) won't go on the panel shows because they don't get the chance to show off their skills. Some male comedian will start talking and the women just shut up.
I've seen it happen on these shows many times.
So they can put women on the shows, but will they get the chance to be funny?
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Sandy Toksvig seems to manage.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
It's farcical.
Some women comedian's (Jo Brand) won't go on the panel shows because they don't get the chance to show off their skills. Some male comedian will start talking and the women just shut up.
I've seen it happen on these shows many times.
So they can put women on the shows, but will they get the chance to be funny?
So you're saying, because the male comedians talk over the women, they just shouldn't include women?
Instead of, I dunno, changing the male comedians to ones that can actually allow a female comedian to speak. How about that for an idea?
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
deano said
quote:
as long as they make me laugh I don't care whether there are women on them or not.
I care that women have equal opportunities to men. Perhaps you do as well.
I prefer it when I find men and women alongside each other. I can't think of any of the changes made because of the desire to give equal rights to women that I'm not very glad about. I think we are all winners when we tackle injustice. (In fact I praise God for making it so.)
So what would your preferred solution be? Just for no one to tinker with your preferred telly programmes?
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I think it is a disgrace. That in 2014 there needs to be a ruling to allow women to have a single seat in panel shows.
And that this causes a fuss, that they are allowed one seat, not equal representation.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Deano,
Most of the team captains are male. As team captains they have the experience with the particular show and many are veterans of panel shows. And the presenters are predominantly male.
[ 11. February 2014, 16:48: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Doesn't need to be macho put downs. Sean Locke is an example. As is Johnny Vegas.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Well forgive me if I've misunderstood the situation, but shouldn't they aim to just be funny rather than act as vehicles for social mobility?
Yes, you have misunderstood the situation, in that a panel show filled with all men, all lefties, all Oxbridge graduates etc, will be less funny than one with different people telling different jokes.
So what you're getting now is worse than what you will be getting in the future, and I fail to see a downside. Good show, Auntie!
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Panel based comedy shows? Why don't we just ban them entirely? That would solve two problems, not just one.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
I quite like them. Like sketch shows as well. Good and bad in both.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
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Posted
Would they refuse to make Monty Python if it was new? Or the Goodies, or the Two Ronnies, or Morcombe and Wise? There have been a heck of a lot of funny men over the years. Will they all need to find a token woman from now on?
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
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Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Yes, it's another political correctness gone mad thread.
Oh, and by the way deano, you can't say "gone mad". It's offensive to those who self-identify as mad. See this story...
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
Would they refuse to make Monty Python if it was new? Or the Goodies, or the Two Ronnies, or Morcombe and Wise? There have been a heck of a lot of funny men over the years. Will they all need to find a token woman from now on?
So, what you are saying is that women are not funny enough to be on such shows?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
Would they refuse to make Monty Python if it was new? Or the Goodies, or the Two Ronnies, or Morcombe and Wise? There have been a heck of a lot of funny men over the years. Will they all need to find a token woman from now on?
So, what you are saying is that women are not funny enough to be on such shows?
No, what I'm saying is that there were no women in those shows, and they were great. They would have done different jokes with women, and we would never have had the jokes we did have. There have been some funny all-women shows over the years, but not very many I can recall. And there were some good mixed teams too.
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I think the issue is mostly with the panel format shows.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
Would they refuse to make Monty Python if it was new? Or the Goodies, or the Two Ronnies, or Morcombe and Wise? There have been a heck of a lot of funny men over the years. Will they all need to find a token woman from now on?
None of those are comedy-based panel shows.
Quite frankly, agitating for women to get onto these relics of mediocrity (sorry lilBuddha, it just had to be said) is a bit like claiming that the rise of girl gangs is a triumph of equality.
For goodness sakes, people, don't you have anything better to do with your time than to listen to these inane wanktrumpets wasting yet another half-hour of your day? Just say no.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I think the issue is mostly with the panel format shows.
Exactly. (previous was cross-posted)
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
No, what I'm saying is that there were no women in those shows, and they were great.
Reg (Graham): Trouble at mill.
Lady Mountback (Carol): Oh no. What sort of trouble?
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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R.A.M.
Shipmate
# 7390
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Posted
Getting token women onto the panels isn't the answer, because it misses the real problem.
The real problem, for both TV and Radio is that the same people reappear again and again, and that pool of people is mainly male (also white, similar sort of backgrounds, an age profile that shifts depending on whether you are on BBC Three or Radio 4).
Producers should make an effort to mix things up more all over, I am still naive enough to think that this would naturally lead to more women appearing, and make the shows funnier and more interesting than just tying Sandi Toksvig to an office chair and wheeling her between panels...
Posts: 1584 | From: (Sunshine on) Leith | Registered: Jun 2004
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
Would they refuse to make Monty Python if it was new? Or the Goodies, or the Two Ronnies, or Morcombe and Wise? There have been a heck of a lot of funny men over the years. Will they all need to find a token woman from now on?
As has been said, it is panel shows. Where they have different guests each week. Not teams.
Female comedy shows - Ab Fab? Watson and Oliver? There have been some, and they have been good. Of course, others might differ, but then it is a matter of taste.
It is always interesting watching Milton Jones (one of my all-time favorite comedians) on panel shows. He never shouts others down, be always waits for an opportunity. And I like Jo Brand on things like QI, because she does get a say.
I think the problem, and one reason why this has not happened before, is that there are less good TV comediennes than comedians. It is more a factor of the comedy circuit as a whole, something that is changing, but slowly.
Comedy is a hard world for women still. Sadly.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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PaulBC
Shipmate
# 13712
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Posted
PC is wrong If you can make it do it by your skills not filling slots cause of gender and that works in reverse as well
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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
Posts: 873 | From: Victoria B.C. Canada | Registered: May 2008
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
Actually there were women in almost every Monty Python episode and film. Illustrative of the times, they had such small parts that they're almost entirely forgotten now.
Carol Cleveland forgotten? Hardly.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
Is this a women's rights / equality thing or is this really just a BBC thing?
Despite being a bastion of PC eco-loving Guardian readers, the BBC has, amongst other things, developed this strange knack of sacking women when they get to a certain age. (Probably in some misguided belief that the key to higher ratings is having younger and younger presenters.) Isn't this rule a rather cack-handed attempt to correct whatever muddled thinking is going on at Broadcasting House?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Yes, it's another political correctness gone mad thread.
Oh, and by the way deano, you can't say "gone mad". It's offensive to those who self-identify as mad. See this story...
No, it's fucking offensive and ABLEIST to those of us with mental health conditions. Hope that clears things up for you.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Panel based comedy shows? Why don't we just ban them entirely? That would solve two problems, not just one.
Never! They're one of the UK's finest exports!
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulBC:
PC is wrong If you can make it do it by your skills not filling slots cause of gender and that works in reverse as well
Nope, horseshit. Aside from 'PC' really meaning 'being a decent person', women are institutionally disadvantaged because they are women. This means that even if they have equal skills to men, men are still picked more often and this is an unfair advantage. So you have to force it just to give women an equal chance.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Clearly you are struggling to keep this discussion within normal Purg bounds, and that is because it is turning into a classic rant thread. I'll double check with Hell Hosts, but I think you'll be much more comfortable discussing this in a hotter climate.
B62, Purg Host and Traffic Cop
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
There used be a TV show here starring a pair of women comedians. Because they were from Sydney's inner west suburbs, they thought it was funny to be very nasty about working class life in the outer west and south west suburbs, and they carried their base with them. Very unfunny indeed
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
... as long as they make me laugh I don't care whether there are women on them or not.
I don't always agree with you, Deano, but you're spot on there.
Living in Canada we don't get gems like Have I Got News For You, more's the pity, but when I do get the chance to see it I'd prefer a lot of blokes who make me laugh than a token female who doesn't.
FWIW (not much) IMHO it's never been the same since they got rid of Angus Deayton; Jo Brand really isn't in the same league.
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by piglet:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
... as long as they make me laugh I don't care whether there are women on them or not.
I don't always agree with you, Deano, but you're spot on there.
Living in Canada we don't get gems like Have I Got News For You, more's the pity, but when I do get the chance to see it I'd prefer a lot of blokes who make me laugh than a token female who doesn't.
FWIW (not much) IMHO it's never been the same since they got rid of Angus Deayton; Jo Brand really isn't in the same league.
But there are many female comedians who are very funny, but never get a real chance because comedy is such a male-dominated profession. It's not that they're less funny, it's because they're women.
It is better than it was in the UK but it's still awful in the US, particularly with stand-up comedy. Most female comedians in the US are in sitcoms eg Tina Fey, Amy Poehler, Mindy Kaling.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
There used be a TV show here starring a pair of women comedians. . . . Very unfunny indeed
quote:
Originally posted by piglet:
Living in Canada we don't get gems like Have I Got News For You, more's the pity, but when I do get the chance to see it I'd prefer a lot of blokes who make me laugh than a token female who doesn't.
FWIW (not much) IMHO it's never been the same since they got rid of Angus Deayton; Jo Brand really isn't in the same league.
There seems to be an implication, never stated directly, that women are just incapable of being effective comedians, or at least less capable than men to such a significant degree that routinely all-male comedy lineups are the expected norm. Is there any real justification for this?
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
As any reading of my post show, no such implication from me. These comedians were unfunny because of the manner in which they slagged off at a group which could not reply.
And some funny women comedians come straight to mind - Joyce Grenfell, and Hattie Jacques as starters.
[ 12. February 2014, 04:13: Message edited by: Gee D ]
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
As any reading of my post show, no such implication from me. These comedians were unfunny because of the manner in which they slagged off at a group which could not reply.
Then I'm left wondering what your particular dislike of these two specific performers is supposed to say about the under-representation of women in comedy. How does it relate?
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
Actually there were women in almost every Monty Python episode and film. Illustrative of the times, they had such small parts that they're almost entirely forgotten now.
That was the Pythons in drag. Women only got a look in when they wanted the females to be sexy.
The parrot may have been female.
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Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Given the recovery of Purgatorialism, we've agreed it can stay here for a while as long as you play nicely. The provocation and the recent self-control are both appreciated.
B62, Purg Host (Traffic Cop hat removed pro tem)
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
To deal with the suggestion in many posts that women are not given a chance. Here were 2 who succeeded with the target audience, despite/because of the attack on working class women.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
There is a perception that women aren't funny which has to do with there being fewer female comedians around. A large part of this is that it's extremely difficult to get into comedy in the first place if you're a woman because many of the clubs and pubs where comedians start out are outright hostile to women. Yes, men get heckled too to some extent, but not at the same level of hostility and creepiness. It's not a scenario for the faint hearted of whatever gender identity, but night after night of "show us yer tits!" or "fat bitch!" tends to put women off when comic talent is what they have to offer. Women who do get into comedy often take other routes: starting with writing a book or working as an actress (comedy or otherwise) or somehow getting into the public eye in a way that enables them to skip the lowest steps of the standup latter, because those steps are always tough but for a woman they can be just awful. If you look at the women who've been successful as standups, they're generally incredibly tough.
I'm afraid that we may end up with the same thing happening to blogs, because successful male bloggers do get their fair share of "OMG u idiot" responses, but succcessful female bloggers get overwhelmed with rape and death threats, and increasingly it's becoming something that only particularly tough women are prepared to do. That's probably another thread though.
This really, really isn't about saying "down with Monty Python!" It's about saying "what if there was another, equally funny comedy show out there that never got to be aired because it was inside the brains of women who've been discriminated against by a system that is overwhelmingly tilted in favour of (white, Oxbridge-educated) men? How could we go about finding the next one of those?"
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
There are a lot of good comediennes out there - many of whom I've seen live, and there are quite a few Radio 4 panel games that do include them:
Dilemma - chaired by Sue Perkins, usually has two female guests - lots of her stuff is ad libbed - she now appears on Just a Minute and other panel games,
Sarah Pascoe - in sitcoms mainly but fantastic stand up if you can see her - she's beginning to appear on panels too,
Grainne McGuire - sadly mostly writing, fantastic as stand up,
Isy Suttie - new show just recorded,
Susan Calman - brilliant one woman show on its way out shortly, recorded the last two Saturdays, but great panellist - regularly appears on the News Quiz,
Jo Brand is wonderful in everything,
Jennie Eclair - acerbic sense of humour, great on panels,
Margaret Claiborne-Smith - mostly back up for other comedians but good solo if you get to see her,
Nina Conti - although she tends to come with monkey - but she and monkey did a spoof chat show
Shappi Khorsandi - she's on some panels too
There are a few more bubbling under - Trodd en Bratt when they record their show - a few others who are now in ensembles who will probably shine individually.
I can very happily leave Watson and Oliver having sat through one of their shows being recorded, and I haven't listed a few others like Bridget Christie, because although I find her funny, she's possibly more political and less mainstream.
I could also list a number of very good comedians who are up and coming too: Andrew Maxwell, James Acaster, Nathan Caton, Nick Mohammed, Joe Lycett, Jason Cook ...
If there are so many good up and coming comedians generally - why is it such a bad thing that panels should be opened up to include new talent.
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
And do not forget the hilarious Pam Ayres who also appears on "Just a Minute".
The linked poem BTW. My wife and I went to a video live-link of a Pam Ayres show, which included the reading of "They should have asked my husband". Not too far of us there was another late middle-aged couple. As this poem was recited, she got a fit of the giggles, which built and built until the whole place was rocking with her as well as the poem. At the end of it, her husband (who was also laughing by that stage) stood up and announced "I'm not that bad really. Am I?" his wife was heard to mutter "O yes you are" which of course set us all off again.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
That was the Pythons in drag. Women only got a look in when they wanted the females to be sexy.
Upthread I quoted a Python sketch with Carol Cleveland in it. She's not in that sketch to be sexy.
The Pythons did do good drag it's true. But it's not the case that women never appear.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
I do miss Linda Smith, and wonder what she would say on this thread.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Trin
Shipmate
# 12100
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Posted
Warning. Massive generalisations ahead:
Being funny is exherting power and laughing is giving power away.
Men don't mind giving power away to other, similarly statused or more highly statused, men (so long as those men aren't in direct practical competition for the available women). Women don't mind giving power away to men. They have nothing to lose.
Men don't like giving power away to eligible women. In their minds, it's meant to happen the other way around.
Women don't like giving power away to other women because, apart from their friends, women all secretly hate each other. (Or so I'm given to understand.)
Men don't mind giving power away to women who are already written off in their minds as potiential mates. Lesbians. Fat, ugly, or older women for example. That's why Jo Brand, Sandy Toksvig and Dawn French do well.
Young, attractive and femenine? Men don't want you to be funny. Women are already jealous of you.
For the same reason, it's very hard, as a man, to make a room full of men laugh unless you are already some way up the social hierachi in that room. If you're at the bottom, you're not funny, no matter what you say.
The upshot is, deliberately adding in women to panel shows won't make them funny.
Important notes:
There is no conspiracy. Men haven't reasoned this out and decided not to employ females to be funny. The social position of the comedien(ne) is an essential part of why something is either funny, or it isn't. Women just don't tend, as a general rule, to occupy the right niche of the hierachi to really capitalise in humour.
[ 12. February 2014, 12:48: Message edited by: Trin ]
Posts: 442 | From: UK | Registered: Nov 2006
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