Ship of Fools: Funny women

Thread: Funny women - PC gone Mad!!! Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by deano (# 12063) on :

Yes, it's another political correctness gone mad thread. The BBC has said that it won't film anymore panel-based comedy shows that have all male lineups...

BBC TV boss: No all-male panel shows

Well forgive me if I've misunderstood the situation, but shouldn't they aim to just be funny rather than act as vehicles for social mobility?

Perhaps some women just don't cope well in these shows because the men are more forceful. Well fair enough, perhaps the women need to be more forceful. Or would it be better to have an all-women show, where they could be funny without the testosterone-fuelled atmosphere that exists in panel shows today.

Personally I like these shows and as long as they make me laugh I don't care whether there are women on them or not.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

Spoken like a man.
Comedy, like most entertainment, is male dominated. The problem here lies that even when there is no conscious intent, people have a tendency to group with those most similar to them.
A white, male, middle-aged golf enthusiast is more likely to hire a white, male, middle aged golf enthusiast than a black young, female video gamer; even with the same qualifications. Even with the hirer not being racist.

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :

It's farcical.

Some women comedian's (Jo Brand) won't go on the panel shows because they don't get the chance to show off their skills. Some male comedian will start talking and the women just shut up.

I've seen it happen on these shows many times.

So they can put women on the shows, but will they get the chance to be funny?

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

Sandy Toksvig seems to manage.

Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :

quote:
Originally posted by deano:
It's farcical.

Some women comedian's (Jo Brand) won't go on the panel shows because they don't get the chance to show off their skills. Some male comedian will start talking and the women just shut up.

I've seen it happen on these shows many times.

So they can put women on the shows, but will they get the chance to be funny?

So you're saying, because the male comedians talk over the women, they just shouldn't include women?

Instead of, I dunno, changing the male comedians to ones that can actually allow a female comedian to speak. How about that for an idea?

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

They are very testosterone fueled at the moment and I have heard it claimed that women get edited out unless they are a foil for the men.

A change for balance would be good.

Posted by hatless (# 3365) on :

deano said

quote:
as long as they make me laugh I don't care whether there are women on them or not.

I care that women have equal opportunities to men. Perhaps you do as well.

I prefer it when I find men and women alongside each other. I can't think of any of the changes made because of the desire to give equal rights to women that I'm not very glad about. I think we are all winners when we tackle injustice. (In fact I praise God for making it so.)

So what would your preferred solution be? Just for no one to tinker with your preferred telly programmes?

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

I think it is a disgrace. That in 2014 there needs to be a ruling to allow women to have a single seat in panel shows.

And that this causes a fuss, that they are allowed one seat, not equal representation.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

Deano,
Most of the team captains are male. As team captains they have the experience with the particular show and many are veterans of panel shows. And the presenters are predominantly male.

[ 11. February 2014, 16:48: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

Posted by pydseybare (# 16184) on :

Comedy seems to be a particularly macho thing, with the 'funniest' people being those who are able to shout and/or put down others.

I think it'd be nice to see panels which included only women and for the loudest and most macho comics to be shown the door permanently.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

Doesn't need to be macho put downs. Sean Locke is an example. As is Johnny Vegas.

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Well forgive me if I've misunderstood the situation, but shouldn't they aim to just be funny rather than act as vehicles for social mobility?

Yes, you have misunderstood the situation, in that a panel show filled with all men, all lefties, all Oxbridge graduates etc, will be less funny than one with different people telling different jokes.

So what you're getting now is worse than what you will be getting in the future, and I fail to see a downside. Good show, Auntie!

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

Panel based comedy shows? Why don't we just ban them entirely? That would solve two problems, not just one.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Here's Michele Hanson's take on the issue - I post the link because of her account of events at a theatre panel show part way down.

Michele Hanson in the Guardian

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

I quite like them. Like sketch shows as well. Good and bad in both.

Posted by Hairy Biker (# 12086) on :

Would they refuse to make Monty Python if it was new? Or the Goodies, or the Two Ronnies, or Morcombe and Wise? There have been a heck of a lot of funny men over the years. Will they all need to find a token woman from now on?

Posted by Hairy Biker (# 12086) on :

quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Yes, it's another political correctness gone mad thread.

Oh, and by the way deano, you can't say "gone mad". It's offensive to those who self-identify as mad. See this story...

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
Would they refuse to make Monty Python if it was new? Or the Goodies, or the Two Ronnies, or Morcombe and Wise? There have been a heck of a lot of funny men over the years. Will they all need to find a token woman from now on?

So, what you are saying is that women are not funny enough to be on such shows?

Posted by Hairy Biker (# 12086) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
Would they refuse to make Monty Python if it was new? Or the Goodies, or the Two Ronnies, or Morcombe and Wise? There have been a heck of a lot of funny men over the years. Will they all need to find a token woman from now on?
So, what you are saying is that women are not funny enough to be on such shows?

No, what I'm saying is that there were no women in those shows, and they were great. They would have done different jokes with women, and we would never have had the jokes we did have. There have been some funny all-women shows over the years, but not very many I can recall. And there were some good mixed teams too.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

I think the issue is mostly with the panel format shows.

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
Would they refuse to make Monty Python if it was new? Or the Goodies, or the Two Ronnies, or Morcombe and Wise? There have been a heck of a lot of funny men over the years. Will they all need to find a token woman from now on?

None of those are comedy-based panel shows.

Quite frankly, agitating for women to get onto these relics of mediocrity (sorry lilBuddha, it just had to be said) is a bit like claiming that the rise of girl gangs is a triumph of equality.

For goodness sakes, people, don't you have anything better to do with your time than to listen to these inane wanktrumpets wasting yet another half-hour of your day? Just say no.

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I think the issue is mostly with the panel format shows.

Exactly. (previous was cross-posted)

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I think the issue is mostly with the panel format shows.

Yes, like 8/10 Cats and Mock the Week.

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
No, what I'm saying is that there were no women in those shows, and they were great.

Reg (Graham): Trouble at mill.
Lady Mountback (Carol): Oh no. What sort of trouble?

Posted by pydseybare (# 16184) on :

Actually there were women in almost every Monty Python episode and film. Illustrative of the times, they had such small parts that they're almost entirely forgotten now.

Posted by R.A.M. (# 7390) on :

Getting token women onto the panels isn't the answer, because it misses the real problem.

The real problem, for both TV and Radio is that the same people reappear again and again, and that pool of people is mainly male (also white, similar sort of backgrounds, an age profile that shifts depending on whether you are on BBC Three or Radio 4).

Producers should make an effort to mix things up more all over, I am still naive enough to think that this would naturally lead to more women appearing, and make the shows funnier and more interesting than just tying Sandi Toksvig to an office chair and wheeling her between panels...

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
Would they refuse to make Monty Python if it was new? Or the Goodies, or the Two Ronnies, or Morcombe and Wise? There have been a heck of a lot of funny men over the years. Will they all need to find a token woman from now on?

As has been said, it is panel shows. Where they have different guests each week. Not teams.

Female comedy shows - Ab Fab? Watson and Oliver? There have been some, and they have been good. Of course, others might differ, but then it is a matter of taste.

It is always interesting watching Milton Jones (one of my all-time favorite comedians) on panel shows. He never shouts others down, be always waits for an opportunity. And I like Jo Brand on things like QI, because she does get a say.

I think the problem, and one reason why this has not happened before, is that there are less good TV comediennes than comedians. It is more a factor of the comedy circuit as a whole, something that is changing, but slowly.

Comedy is a hard world for women still. Sadly.

Posted by PaulBC (# 13712) on :

PC is wrong If you can make it do it by your skills not filling slots cause of gender and that works in reverse as well

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :

quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
Actually there were women in almost every Monty Python episode and film. Illustrative of the times, they had such small parts that they're almost entirely forgotten now.

Carol Cleveland forgotten? Hardly.

Posted by pydseybare (# 16184) on :

quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
Carol Cleveland forgotten? Hardly.

Well forgotten by the kinds of people who insist that there were only men in Python, at least.

Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :

Is this a women's rights / equality thing or is this really just a BBC thing?

Despite being a bastion of PC eco-loving Guardian readers, the BBC has, amongst other things, developed this strange knack of sacking women when they get to a certain age. (Probably in some misguided belief that the key to higher ratings is having younger and younger presenters.) Isn't this rule a rather cack-handed attempt to correct whatever muddled thinking is going on at Broadcasting House?

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:

quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Yes, it's another political correctness gone mad thread.
Oh, and by the way deano, you can't say "gone mad". It's offensive to those who self-identify as mad. See this story...

No, it's fucking offensive and ABLEIST to those of us with mental health conditions. Hope that clears things up for you.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Panel based comedy shows? Why don't we just ban them entirely? That would solve two problems, not just one.

Never! They're one of the UK's finest exports!

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PaulBC:
PC is wrong If you can make it do it by your skills not filling slots cause of gender and that works in reverse as well

Nope, horseshit. Aside from 'PC' really meaning 'being a decent person', women are institutionally disadvantaged because they are women. This means that even if they have equal skills to men, men are still picked more often and this is an unfair advantage. So you have to force it just to give women an equal chance.

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

Clearly you are struggling to keep this discussion within normal Purg bounds, and that is because it is turning into a classic rant thread. I'll double check with Hell Hosts, but I think you'll be much more comfortable discussing this in a hotter climate.

B62, Purg Host and Traffic Cop

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

There used be a TV show here starring a pair of women comedians. Because they were from Sydney's inner west suburbs, they thought it was funny to be very nasty about working class life in the outer west and south west suburbs, and they carried their base with them. Very unfunny indeed

Posted by piglet (# 11803) on :

quote:
Originally posted by deano:
... as long as they make me laugh I don't care whether there are women on them or not.

I don't always agree with you, Deano, but you're spot on there.

Living in Canada we don't get gems like Have I Got News For You, more's the pity, but when I do get the chance to see it I'd prefer a lot of blokes who make me laugh than a token female who doesn't.

FWIW (not much) IMHO it's never been the same since they got rid of Angus Deayton; Jo Brand really isn't in the same league.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by piglet:

quote:
Originally posted by deano:
... as long as they make me laugh I don't care whether there are women on them or not.
I don't always agree with you, Deano, but you're spot on there.

Living in Canada we don't get gems like Have I Got News For You, more's the pity, but when I do get the chance to see it I'd prefer a lot of blokes who make me laugh than a token female who doesn't.

FWIW (not much) IMHO it's never been the same since they got rid of Angus Deayton; Jo Brand really isn't in the same league.

But there are many female comedians who are very funny, but never get a real chance because comedy is such a male-dominated profession. It's not that they're less funny, it's because they're women.

It is better than it was in the UK but it's still awful in the US, particularly with stand-up comedy. Most female comedians in the US are in sitcoms eg Tina Fey, Amy Poehler, Mindy Kaling.

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
There used be a TV show here starring a pair of women comedians. . . . Very unfunny indeed

quote:
Originally posted by piglet:
Living in Canada we don't get gems like Have I Got News For You, more's the pity, but when I do get the chance to see it I'd prefer a lot of blokes who make me laugh than a token female who doesn't.

FWIW (not much) IMHO it's never been the same since they got rid of Angus Deayton; Jo Brand really isn't in the same league.

There seems to be an implication, never stated directly, that women are just incapable of being effective comedians, or at least less capable than men to such a significant degree that routinely all-male comedy lineups are the expected norm. Is there any real justification for this?

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

As any reading of my post show, no such implication from me. These comedians were unfunny because of the manner in which they slagged off at a group which could not reply.

And some funny women comedians come straight to mind - Joyce Grenfell, and Hattie Jacques as starters.

[ 12. February 2014, 04:13: Message edited by: Gee D ]

Posted by Crœsos (# 238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
As any reading of my post show, no such implication from me. These comedians were unfunny because of the manner in which they slagged off at a group which could not reply.

Then I'm left wondering what your particular dislike of these two specific performers is supposed to say about the under-representation of women in comedy. How does it relate?

Posted by The Midge (# 2398) on :

quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
Actually there were women in almost every Monty Python episode and film. Illustrative of the times, they had such small parts that they're almost entirely forgotten now.

That was the Pythons in drag. Women only got a look in when they wanted the females to be sexy.

The parrot may have been female.

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

Given the recovery of Purgatorialism, we've agreed it can stay here for a while as long as you play nicely. The provocation and the recent self-control are both appreciated.

B62, Purg Host (Traffic Cop hat removed pro tem)

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

To deal with the suggestion in many posts that women are not given a chance. Here were 2 who succeeded with the target audience, despite/because of the attack on working class women.

Posted by Liopleurodon (# 4836) on :

There is a perception that women aren't funny which has to do with there being fewer female comedians around. A large part of this is that it's extremely difficult to get into comedy in the first place if you're a woman because many of the clubs and pubs where comedians start out are outright hostile to women. Yes, men get heckled too to some extent, but not at the same level of hostility and creepiness. It's not a scenario for the faint hearted of whatever gender identity, but night after night of "show us yer tits!" or "fat bitch!" tends to put women off when comic talent is what they have to offer. Women who do get into comedy often take other routes: starting with writing a book or working as an actress (comedy or otherwise) or somehow getting into the public eye in a way that enables them to skip the lowest steps of the standup latter, because those steps are always tough but for a woman they can be just awful. If you look at the women who've been successful as standups, they're generally incredibly tough.

I'm afraid that we may end up with the same thing happening to blogs, because successful male bloggers do get their fair share of "OMG u idiot" responses, but succcessful female bloggers get overwhelmed with rape and death threats, and increasingly it's becoming something that only particularly tough women are prepared to do. That's probably another thread though.

This really, really isn't about saying "down with Monty Python!" It's about saying "what if there was another, equally funny comedy show out there that never got to be aired because it was inside the brains of women who've been discriminated against by a system that is overwhelmingly tilted in favour of (white, Oxbridge-educated) men? How could we go about finding the next one of those?"

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

There are a lot of good comediennes out there - many of whom I've seen live, and there are quite a few Radio 4 panel games that do include them:

Dilemma - chaired by Sue Perkins, usually has two female guests - lots of her stuff is ad libbed - she now appears on Just a Minute and other panel games,
Sarah Pascoe - in sitcoms mainly but fantastic stand up if you can see her - she's beginning to appear on panels too,
Grainne McGuire - sadly mostly writing, fantastic as stand up,
Isy Suttie - new show just recorded,
Susan Calman - brilliant one woman show on its way out shortly, recorded the last two Saturdays, but great panellist - regularly appears on the News Quiz,
Jo Brand is wonderful in everything,
Jennie Eclair - acerbic sense of humour, great on panels,
Margaret Claiborne-Smith - mostly back up for other comedians but good solo if you get to see her,
Nina Conti - although she tends to come with monkey - but she and monkey did a spoof chat show
Shappi Khorsandi - she's on some panels too

There are a few more bubbling under - Trodd en Bratt when they record their show - a few others who are now in ensembles who will probably shine individually.

I can very happily leave Watson and Oliver having sat through one of their shows being recorded, and I haven't listed a few others like Bridget Christie, because although I find her funny, she's possibly more political and less mainstream.

I could also list a number of very good comedians who are up and coming too: Andrew Maxwell, James Acaster, Nathan Caton, Nick Mohammed, Joe Lycett, Jason Cook ...

If there are so many good up and coming comedians generally - why is it such a bad thing that panels should be opened up to include new talent.

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

And do not forget the hilarious Pam Ayres who also appears on "Just a Minute".

The linked poem BTW. My wife and I went to a video live-link of a Pam Ayres show, which included the reading of "They should have asked my husband". Not too far of us there was another late middle-aged couple. As this poem was recited, she got a fit of the giggles, which built and built until the whole place was rocking with her as well as the poem. At the end of it, her husband (who was also laughing by that stage) stood up and announced "I'm not that bad really. Am I?" his wife was heard to mutter "O yes you are" which of course set us all off again.

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Midge:
That was the Pythons in drag. Women only got a look in when they wanted the females to be sexy.

Upthread I quoted a Python sketch with Carol Cleveland in it. She's not in that sketch to be sexy.

The Pythons did do good drag it's true. But it's not the case that women never appear.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

I do miss Linda Smith, and wonder what she would say on this thread.

Posted by Trin (# 12100) on :

Warning. Massive generalisations ahead:

Being funny is exherting power and laughing is giving power away.

Men don't mind giving power away to other, similarly statused or more highly statused, men (so long as those men aren't in direct practical competition for the available women). Women don't mind giving power away to men. They have nothing to lose.

Men don't like giving power away to eligible women. In their minds, it's meant to happen the other way around.
Women don't like giving power away to other women because, apart from their friends, women all secretly hate each other. (Or so I'm given to understand.)

Men don't mind giving power away to women who are already written off in their minds as potiential mates. Lesbians. Fat, ugly, or older women for example. That's why Jo Brand, Sandy Toksvig and Dawn French do well.

Young, attractive and femenine? Men don't want you to be funny. Women are already jealous of you.

For the same reason, it's very hard, as a man, to make a room full of men laugh unless you are already some way up the social hierachi in that room. If you're at the bottom, you're not funny, no matter what you say.

The upshot is, deliberately adding in women to panel shows won't make them funny.

Important notes:
There is no conspiracy. Men haven't reasoned this out and decided not to employ females to be funny. The social position of the comedien(ne) is an essential part of why something is either funny, or it isn't. Women just don't tend, as a general rule, to occupy the right niche of the hierachi to really capitalise in humour.

[ 12. February 2014, 12:48: Message edited by: Trin ]

Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :

On that basis, Trin, I should find Dawn French funny and Jennifer Saunders unfunny. If anything, I find it's the other way round.

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

I haven't seen these Brit shows, but are they anything like this?

Posted by Trin (# 12100) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
On that basis, Trin, I should find Dawn French funny and Jennifer Saunders unfunny. If anything, I find it's the other way round.

I don't follow..

Only if you find yourself in competition with them, or you dislike the idea of them being in a higher social status than you. (Or you are an exception to the generalisation.)

[ 12. February 2014, 14:20: Message edited by: Trin ]

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Trin:

Important notes:
There is no conspiracy. Men haven't reasoned this out and decided not to employ females to be funny. The social position of the comedien(ne) is an essential part of why something is either funny, or it isn't. Women just don't tend, as a general rule, to occupy the right niche of the hierachi to really capitalise in humour.

By this same argument are other inequalities kept. By force have they been disrupted.

Posted by Late Paul (# 37) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Trin:
For the same reason, it's very hard, as a man, to make a room full of men laugh unless you are already some way up the social hierachi in that room. If you're at the bottom, you're not funny, no matter what you say.

Charlie Chaplin and Stan Laurel may disagree with you on that one (to start a very long list).

As generalisations go I quite like your theory but it needs adapting to allow for Fools and Clowns who pretty much derive their comedic impetus from their (deliberate) lack of position.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

Maybe they need to bring out an all-female panel show which is so successful it wows everyone and knocks their socks off. That would then be a very positive role model for others to follow. As well as others mentioned here, I'd like to nominate Victoria Wood as one of the panellists.

I suppose someone will now start pushing to have a regular female member of 'Top Gear' - now that would set the sexist stereotypes on their heads! (Anyone started a rumour about Stig being female?)

Posted by Trin (# 12100) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Late Paul:
As generalisations go I quite like your theory but it needs adapting to allow for Fools and Clowns who pretty much derive their comedic impetus from their (deliberate) lack of position.

The theory doesn't apply when you're laughing at someone. It also doesn't apply for scripted comedy. No exchange of power takes place between an audience and an anonymous writer.

Stand up/panel shows are a very different arena - far closer to real life interaction than any other kind of comedy, and thus follow similar rules.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

And are thus a better forum for this ruling than sketch shows.

Posted by Trin (# 12100) on :

Better if one is militant about artificially imposing equality rather than nurturing it.

If it could be shown that as a general rule, men made more competent surgeons than women, would you argue that women ought to be proportionally represented in surgery? Or just that the minority of exceptionally good women were allowed to be surgeons along with the men?

Why any different for comedy? Both are a meritocracy. The important thing is - no individual woman is being blocked. It's just less likely that any given woman will make a good comic in our society.

If you want to fix it - fix society.

[ 12. February 2014, 16:01: Message edited by: Trin ]

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

The point is that comedy is most certainly not a meritocracy. Whether you wish it to be or not, entertainment is part of society. That plastic box shapes us more than we care to admit.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Maybe they need to bring out an all-female panel show which is so successful it wows everyone and knocks their socks off. That would then be a very positive role model for others to follow. As well as others mentioned here, I'd like to nominate Victoria Wood as one of the panellists.

How would you ensure that it was enormously successful? Knowing that a whole genre (women's comedy) was riding on its success would be a huge burden for any new comedy show to bear!

The problem with an all-women's panel show, unfortunately, is that it would probably be very self-conscious. It would either be very obviously female-centric, or else deliberately choose to avoid 'women's issues'. People would criticise the show in either case.

Victoria Wood doesn't seem to do panel shows, for some reason.

quote:

I suppose someone will now start pushing to have a regular female member of 'Top Gear' - now that would set the sexist stereotypes on their heads!

I imagine that any woman who joined 'Top Gear' would end up playing the part of 'the sensible one'.

Actually, rather than a panel show, I'd rather see another sketch show on the lines of French and Saunders. Maybe a female Monty Python kind of thing. It would showcase the talents of comic actresses and not just female stand-up artists.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

This was discussed on The Media Show on Radio 4 today - Victoria Wood was mentioned, but I have somehow not remembered in what context. One thing was said - women are asked, but do not accept in the same numbers as men, by a huge differential.

Radio 4 was mentioned above - it is a little odd to comment about women "appearing" on it.

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

Taking part, if you like, Penny S. Nothing significant in the use of "appears" from my POV.

I listen to a lot more radio comedy quiz shows than I watch TV comedy quiz shows. I think the shows are funnier than the TV equivalents. Mind you, I belong to the age bracket which does listen to a lot of R4.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

Me too. I wasn't getting at you though. The use of the word rather highlighted the basic problem, I thought.

Posted by Trin (# 12100) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The point is that comedy is most certainly not a meritocracy.

Why not? What dictates who succeeds, other than their success or failure at making people laugh?

Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Trin:

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The point is that comedy is most certainly not a meritocracy.
Why not? What dictates who succeeds, other than their success or failure at making people laugh?

I don't know about you, but I think that's a pretty good benchmark for judging a comedian.

Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :

As a Canadian who laments that there's nothing comparable in North American comedy to the UK panel shows, I enjoy them a lot, though not all equally (I love QI, Would I Lie to You, and sometimes Mock the Week ... never been able to get into 8 out of 10 cats. We've watched bits of a few others but those are the ones we watch regularly).

Although I love these shows its not hard to see that there's a gender imbalance -- I see a lot of either all-male panels, or panels with one token woman. I know QI took some flak for having too few women on, and they responded by doing one episode in which the three guest panelists were all women. It was great but I don't see why that has to be a one-time stunt casting thing. I enjoy it when Sue Perkins, Jo Brand, Sandy Toksvig or any one of a number of other women comedians pop up on these shows and wish we saw more of them. I think the hardest I ever laughed at QI in eleven seasons was at a tangent Ronni Ancona went off on once when she appeared on the show.

I do think that in fields where male dominance is so entrenched that people think of "male" as the default setting, there sometimes does need to be some affirmative action to shake things up a bit. If panel shows HAVE to bring on more women, then hopefully more of the audience will be exposed to their comedy and eventually there'll be no need to go out of the way to set quotas. I do notice that, as I have no access to the BBC, I usually watch these shows on YouTube and anytime a woman comedian appears there's usually a spate of comments saying things like "Sue Perkins just isn't funny ... Women are never as funny as men." I'd hate to be a woman comedian and have to face those attitudes. But then YouTube comments are known to be pretty much the low point of the internet.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Trin:

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The point is that comedy is most certainly not a meritocracy.
Why not? What dictates who succeeds, other than their success or failure at making people laugh?

Who is allowed to compete. As has been outlined several time above, the playing field is not level at any portion of the process. Could, twenty years ago, Reginald D. Hunter have achieved the level of success he has now?

Posted by Mili (# 3254) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Trin:
Warning. Massive generalisations ahead:

Being funny is exherting power and laughing is giving power away.

Men don't mind giving power away to other, similarly statused or more highly statused, men (so long as those men aren't in direct practical competition for the available women). Women don't mind giving power away to men. They have nothing to lose.

Men don't like giving power away to eligible women. In their minds, it's meant to happen the other way around.
Women don't like giving power away to other women because, apart from their friends, women all secretly hate each other. (Or so I'm given to understand.)

Men don't mind giving power away to women who are already written off in their minds as potiential mates. Lesbians. Fat, ugly, or older women for example. That's why Jo Brand, Sandy Toksvig and Dawn French do well.

Young, attractive and femenine? Men don't want you to be funny. Women are already jealous of you.

For the same reason, it's very hard, as a man, to make a room full of men laugh unless you are already some way up the social hierachi in that room. If you're at the bottom, you're not funny, no matter what you say.

The upshot is, deliberately adding in women to panel shows won't make them funny.

Important notes:
There is no conspiracy. Men haven't reasoned this out and decided not to employ females to be funny. The social position of the comedien(ne) is an essential part of why something is either funny, or it isn't. Women just don't tend, as a general rule, to occupy the right niche of the hierachi to really capitalise in humour.

Even if this is true - I don't know what evidence you have for any of this - why should TV panel shows only cater to the tastes of men? You could argue that women find many men funny, so a male dominated panel meets female tastes too, but I don't think that justifies excluding female comedians.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

Also - it's comedian not comedienne. 'Comedienne' is very dated and 80s.

Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
...
Although I love these shows its not hard to see that there's a gender imbalance -- I see a lot of either all-male panels, or panels with one token woman. I know QI took some flak for having too few women on, and they responded by doing one episode in which the three guest panelists were all women. It was great but I don't see why that has to be a one-time stunt casting thing. I enjoy it when Sue Perkins, Jo Brand, Sandy Toksvig or any one of a number of other women comedians pop up on these shows and wish we saw more of them. I think the hardest I ever laughed at QI in eleven seasons was at a tangent Ronni Ancona went off on once when she appeared on the show.

...

There've been a number of QI episodes since then including more than one woman. They certainly don't seem anymore laboured or unfunny than any other episodes (and why would they)? I'd definitely agree with that Ronni Ancona's appearances are a highlight.

Re: Mock the Week. I believe a number of male comedians have also turned down an appearance due to the perceived atmosphere of the filming.

Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Trin:

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
On that basis, Trin, I should find Dawn French funny and Jennifer Saunders unfunny. If anything, I find it's the other way round.
I don't follow..

Only if you find yourself in competition with them, or you dislike the idea of them being in a higher social status than you. (Or you are an exception to the generalisation.)

On your generalisation (if I've followed it correctly) I (as a man) don't mind giving power away to unattractive women, but do mind giving it away to attractive women and that I don't want to find attractive, feminine women funny for this reason.

I would've said Jennifer Saunders could be said to fit into the latter category and you've placed Dawn French in the first. But I find Jennifer Saunders funnier than Dawn French.

Anyway, I don't want to labour the point - it was just an aside, not a weighty thought.

Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
There is a perception that women aren't funny which has to do with there being fewer female comedians around. A large part of this is that it's extremely difficult to get into comedy in the first place if you're a woman because many of the clubs and pubs where comedians start out are outright hostile to women.

Might this also have something to do with the pitch of a woman's voice? I imagine it's probably easier for a man (with a deeper voice) to project himself in a busy pub or club. I imagine it can be harder for a woman to do that without sounding shrill.

Posted by Eliab (# 9153) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Trin:
Men don't mind giving power away to women who are already written off in their minds as potiential mates. Lesbians. Fat, ugly, or older women for example. That's why Jo Brand, Sandy Toksvig and Dawn French do well.

OK, those three women are all in their fifties now, which I suppose is what you mean by 'older', but they were each managing to be funny twenty years ago. Only one of them is a lesbian, as far as I know, and she didn't get any more or less or otherwise humourous when I first heard that. None of them could fairly be described as 'ugly'. And although two of them make no secret of being on the large side, my own subjective experience is that their entertainment value derives more from their wit than their circumference.

My guess would be that the three women you refer to are well known comedians because they are talented at being consistently and successfully entertaining to lots of different people.

Posted by Trin (# 12100) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:
Originally posted by Trin:

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The point is that comedy is most certainly not a meritocracy.
Why not? What dictates who succeeds, other than their success or failure at making people laugh?
Who is allowed to compete. As has been outlined several time above, the playing field is not level at any portion of the process. Could, twenty years ago, Reginald D. Hunter have achieved the level of success he has now?

You are still speaking as if there is a conspiracy. No one is being disallowed. Men, according to my theory, are better placed in society to make an audience laugh. Making the audience laugh is the sole criteria for success.

Societal preference may be "disallowing" widespread female comic success, but this is not because they are women. This may be indicative of a deep seated problem. But I don't see that people's preference in comedians, culturally imbued and mathematically imbalanced though it may be, is a problem in itself. Fix the deeper problem.

(On the subject of black comedians Eddie Murphy, incidentally, was enjoying great success in the 80s.)

quote:
Originally posted by Mili:
Even if this (my theory) is true - I don't know what evidence you have for any of this - why should TV panel shows only cater to the tastes of men? You could argue that women find many men funny, so a male dominated panel meets female tastes too, but I don't think that justifies excluding female comedians.

I have no evidence, beyond my own experience of UK culture and what makes funny funny. My point is that women as well as men appreciate male stand up more than female.

quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
My guess would be that the three women you refer to are well known comedians because they are talented at being consistently and successfully entertaining to lots of different people.

Certainly - this is the reason they are good at their jobs. But I'd put it to you that because each, for their own reasons, is the antithesis of a sex symbol, that they are able to be found funny. Dawn French probably shouldn't be included since I think she'd be more associated with the scripted, rather than stand up style.

I could be entirely wrong - this is purely my conjecture. But if I am, then we need to come up with another theory on why women don't statistically do well in stand up style comedy. It cannot possibly be any sort of conspiracy. So why else?

Female and funny is a proven possibility. Feminine and funny don't seem to work in our culture. Most females are feminine. So there won't be many successful female stand up comedians

Posted by Eliab (# 9153) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Trin:
I could be entirely wrong - this is purely my conjecture. But if I am, then we need to come up with another theory on why women don't statistically do well in stand up style comedy. It cannot possibly be any sort of conspiracy. So why else?

I don't have any detailed or personal knowledge of what it takes to make it in professional comedy. There are likely quite a few different ways of doing so, reflecting lots of different styles of being funny. I would guess that being taken seriously doing something that is essentially silly is a common theme. It strikes me that in our society (unfortunately) men are often taken more seriously than women. I'm not sure that there need be any more to it than that.

quote:
Female and funny is a proven possibility. Feminine and funny don't seem to work in our culture. Most females are feminine. So there won't be many successful female stand up comedians

But the women you cited as examples aren't especially unfeminine. There are, I agree, models of 'femininity' that they don't exemplify, but they have that in common with most other women, who aren't simpering airheads/page 3 pin-ups either. They are as comfortably within the normal bounds of ordinary female variation as most male comedians are within male variation. If your friend/sister/mother/employee/employer looked and spoke like Sandy Toksvig, Jo Brand or Dawn French, you might notice that she was possessed of unusual intelligence and wit, but you wouldn't think her remarkable for a lack of femininity. You certainly wouldn't call her old, ugly and fat.

[ 13. February 2014, 09:11: Message edited by: Eliab ]

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Might this also have something to do with the pitch of a woman's voice? I imagine it's probably easier for a man (with a deeper voice) to project himself in a busy pub or club. I imagine it can be harder for a woman to do that without sounding shrill.

Not at all. I am a teacher, we had voice training at college - it's perfectly possible for a woman to project her voice across a hall full of noisy children without being in the least but 'shrill'.

Posted by Liopleurodon (# 4836) on :

Yeah it also doesn't really explain why female comedians end up with shouts of "suck my dick!" and "tits or get out!" rather than "speak up!", does it?

[ 13. February 2014, 09:47: Message edited by: Liopleurodon ]

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

I don't watch TV panel shows. I do listen to radio panel comedy shows (Just a minute / the News Quiz etc) but I do so while doing something else in the kitchen, or whilst driving, so I'm not well placed to comment.

However, it occurs to me that if I want to read something funny, I invariably choose a female writer. Caitlin Moran, for example. Looking at the "cartoon" section of our bookshelf, I have books of cartoons by Jackie Fleming and Posy Simmonds, and my husband has Gary Larson and Asterix. IMO, Larson is amusing, but lacks that extra twist that can make Fleming and Simmonds so good. But my husband doesn't find them particularly funny.

It hadn't previously occurred to me that we have a gender split with cartoonists, but we do.

Do others find the same?

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :

Not sure I'd have described Les Dawson as the epitome of handsome masculinity ...

Or many of the other. Many of the stand up comics also looked a bit comic, even (as was the case with Les Dawson and Jimmy James for example) to the extent of pulling "funny faces".

When it comes to sitcom, perhaps different rules apply. Penelope Keith and Felicity Kendall were both hilarious in "The Good Life" and both "looked good" too. Powerful female characters, as well.

Perhaps sitcom was ahead of panel games?

[ 13. February 2014, 09:53: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Might this also have something to do with the pitch of a woman's voice? I imagine it's probably easier for a man (with a deeper voice) to project himself in a busy pub or club. I imagine it can be harder for a woman to do that without sounding shrill.
Not at all. I am a teacher, we had voice training at college - it's perfectly possible for a woman to project her voice across a hall full of noisy children without being in the least but 'shrill'.

Sure, I don't doubt that (and Mrs Thatcher's voice coaching demonstrated this very well). But this is achvieved after specialised training rather than something that comes naturally. I'm not saying that this is the be all and end all, but wondered whether this might be a factor.

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

Originally posted by Anglican't:

quote:
But this is achvieved after specialised training rather than something that comes naturally.

Specialised training which is readily available. Most teachers, lecturers, lawyers, clergy etc etc will have been trained, and public speaking is taught in schools.

It's a bit like driving. That doesn't come naturally either, but lessons are readily available, and the ability to drive is achievable by most people.

Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ArachnidinElmet:
There've been a number of QI episodes since then including more than one woman. They certainly don't seem anymore laboured or unfunny than any other episodes (and why would they)?

On a very quick count of the online list of QI episodes I counted 10 that included more than one woman. There have been more since they did that "all-woman" panel in the J series so I think there has been a concerted effort to increase the number of women, but the 10 episodes that feature more than one woman is paltry compared to the much larger number that feature an all-male cast.

To me it suggests that the default belief that "men are funnier" is deeply ingrained enough that a focused effort does need to be made to get more funny women included in such shows, so that the audience is more aware of how many great women comedians there are.

Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :

quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
Specialised training which is readily available. Most teachers, lecturers, lawyers, clergy etc etc will have been trained, and public speaking is taught in schools.

Sure, but it's easier for a man to say 'my mates think I'm funny, I might pop down the Red Lion on Thursday to try their stand up night' than for a woman to say 'my girlfriends think I'm funny, I'll enroll on a voice training course then I'll pop down the Red Lion on Thursday to try their stand up night'.

Posted by Trin (# 12100) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
They are as comfortably within the normal bounds of ordinary female variation as most male comedians are within male variation.

I agree, and I think I have been unnecessarily crass about specific individuals in my haste to make my point. Intellectual honesty about the situation forces me to observe that whilst - yes - they are within the normal bounds of female variation, successful female stand up comics tend to occupy certain edges of that variation. Specifically the edge that looks like it might be able to hold its own in a bar fight.

To be honest, I'm not confident enough in this line of conjecture to keep hammering away at it. I believe I've made my point and I'm happy to hear alternative points of view.

quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
It strikes me that in our society (unfortunately) men are often taken more seriously than women. I'm not sure that there need be any more to it than that.

Fair point - that could well be the case.

Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Might this also have something to do with the pitch of a woman's voice? I imagine it's probably easier for a man (with a deeper voice) to project himself in a busy pub or club. I imagine it can be harder for a woman to do that without sounding shrill.
Not at all. I am a teacher, we had voice training at college - it's perfectly possible for a woman to project her voice across a hall full of noisy children without being in the least but 'shrill'.
Sure, I don't doubt that (and Mrs Thatcher's voice coaching demonstrated this very well). But this is achvieved after specialised training rather than something that comes naturally. I'm not saying that this is the be all and end all, but wondered whether this might be a factor.

I was an outpatient sister for 10 years and I can throw my voice across a crowded hall, no problem, and no training given.
I think the reason the News Quiz has more female panellists is because the chair is female and I think this helps set the tone. It certainly appears more balanced than most. But even in Simon Hoggart's day there was a regular supply of females on the show. perhaps this is because it is radio and appearance is less important, and that the shows are well managed with a middle class audience so no rude hecklers. The show also started out as one for journalists so that may also have a bearing on it.
Both Sandi and Linda Smith made odd appearances on I'm sorry I haven't a clue and would remark on how unusual it was that there was a female guest (Samantha was occasionally replaced with Sven when Sandi appeared, which was presumably supposed to be ironic. But ISIHAC is an unusual type of panel game so not necessarily the best example.
I really like Jo Brand chairing Have I got news for you, she manages the teams very well.

[ 13. February 2014, 10:15: Message edited by: Heavenly Anarchist ]

Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist:
I think the reason the News Quiz has more female panellists is because the chair is female and I think this helps set the tone. It certainly appears more balanced than most.

If the News Quiz has now got the gender balance right, perhaps they'll start addressing the political balance...

Posted by Mr Clingford (# 7961) on :

I too was thinking of 'I'm Sorry I..'. On the one hand Victoria Wood appeared recently and and on the other the programme is scripted. As it is not so much 'off the cuff' there is less need to assert yourself over the voices of others. As some of the panel aren't very young either I wouldn't think the programme reeks of testosterone.

Posted by Ferijen (# 4719) on :

I've heard Sandi Toksvig talk on feminist type issues - apparently the first time she chaired The News Quiz, "they" commented on the Monday morning... 'Well, there's been no complaints'.. 'about what'... 'about you being a woman'.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

Right - let's remove a few illusions here. The Comedy Store in London - real stand up, deal with audience suggestions and ad lib - has a couple of women I forgot on my list (and I deliberately missed Pam Ayers, Victoria Wood, Dawn French and a few other of the more established people and was aiming at under 40 or younger) - Jo Caulfield, Josie Long and Suki Webster (I've seen Jo Caulfield and Josie Long live).

The News Quiz is currently recorded in the BBC Radio Theatre or the RADA studios. You get tickets by applying on the BBC website and being entered into a draw. The audience is self-selecting. The recording takes around 2 hours for half an hour of broadcast (depending on how long Jeremy Hardy goes on for). There is sometimes heckling; it doesn't always make it past the editing suite. But back in the day when I was a student it was taken around the student unions for recording. I saw several shows that way, including one that was really badly heckled*, and that one was still broadcast. I've also been to News Quiz recordings recently (last series and series before).

I have also seen one comedian as a panellist get incredibly rude to Sue Perkins on Dilemma - real homophobic stuff that didn't make the edit. But I've also seen the same guy do brilliant solo stand up.

Sometimes what looks like token woman is desperate cutting in of all the material they got to say. I was in the audience for Brian Blessed chairing HIGNFY - and I think everything that the panellists said (Paul Merton, Bridget Christie, Ian Hislop and Ken Livingstone) was in the show. Brian Blessed didn't give anyone else a look in. The recording overran - to two and a half hours and overtime - and I suspect 2 hours of Brian Blessed hit the cutting room floor. I was sitting near the producer and he had his head in his hands for much of it.

* Jonathan King - someone there knew then, early 80s, that Jonathan King was into little boys and had primed us.

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

Those who think that women aren't as funny as men obviously have not seen/read the Vagina Monologues.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

People mention QI's female panel, but I'm surprised I haven't seen anyone mention the QI question that was actually about this very issue.

(Um, unless I've missed it, in which case sorry)

Which said that women don't laugh as much at female comedians. They acknowledged they didn't entirely know why, but that was the statistical finding.

I found a youtube video, but bizarrely the person had cut the clip off before the answer is actually given. Still quite funny listening to all the 'fake' answers.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

The cutoff is intentional, IMO. It highlights Jack Dee's on liner. Though, interestingly, he seems a bit uncomfortable with is after he makes it.
Here is the entire show, the entire question goes from about 13:20 to 17:00.

[Did you mean here? - Eliab]

[ 14. February 2014, 07:18: Message edited by: Eliab ]

Posted by Mili (# 3254) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
There used be a TV show here starring a pair of women comedians. Because they were from Sydney's inner west suburbs, they thought it was funny to be very nasty about working class life in the outer west and south west suburbs, and they carried their base with them. Very unfunny indeed

Do you mean 'Kath and Kim'? I wasn't sure because it was filmed in Melbourne not Sydney. I know there has been criticism that it mocks outer suburbanites, but as a middle to outer suburbanite who can somewhat relate to the characters and may have friends and family who somewhat resemble them, I found that show funny. I don't think it would have got the ratings it did if lots of suburbanites hadn't been tuning in.

I even spent tonight at an engagement party at a restaurant/club at Fountain Gate shopping centre where some of the series was filmed. (The fictional suburb where the characters lived was Fountain Lakes). The engaged couple even met at that restaurant/club . [Smile]

I hadn't been there before, but my local friends and I have spent plenty of days and evenings socialising at a very similar shopping centre out our way, and lots of us watched 'Kath and Kim' and laughed.

As to British female comedians, another funny one who I have seen hold her own on panel shows is Miranda Hart. She's in Melbourne this week but I didn't know if advance so missed her live shows [Frown]

. One of my FB friends met her at the stage door and put up photos of herself hugging Miranda, holding her arm and looking like she would never let her go. Miranda looked slightly concerned.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

posted by Anglicant

quote:
If the News Quiz has now got the gender balance right, perhaps they'll start addressing the political balance...

Jeremy Hardy - not only un-funny, but so repetitive... If you take out any given names his comments on any show over the past months could be seamlessly pasted into a show from the 1980s.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

There is a political balance of humour on the telly.
Clowns on the left are on panel shows, clowns on the right are in office.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

... and here I am, stuck in the middle with you...

Posted by piglet (# 11803) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
... I imagine that any woman who joined 'Top Gear' would end up playing the part of 'the sensible one'.

And replace Captain Slow? Nooooo!!!!

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Actually, rather than a panel show, I'd rather see another sketch show ...

If you mean something along the lines of Catherine Tate or Smack the Pony, no thanks - I found them about as amusing as toothache.

I don't think that my dislike for these shows is because they're made by women - I just don't find their content funny.

But it's impossible to explain why one thing makes you laugh and another doesn't. Friends and Coupling were both sitcoms about six twenty-somethings who got into amusing situations; Friends barely raised a smile, but Coupling left me with tears of laughter streaming down my face.

Posted by Huia (# 3473) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mili:

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
There used be a TV show here starring a pair of women comedians. Because they were from Sydney's inner west suburbs, they thought it was funny to be very nasty about working class life in the outer west and south west suburbs, and they carried their base with them. Very unfunny indeed
Do you mean 'Kath and Kim'? I wasn't sure because it was filmed in Melbourne not Sydney.

Kath and Kim was shown over here. I thought it was irritating, (probably missed all the 'in' jokes) but my oldest brother liked it. He likes a lot of comedy that leaves me feeling irritated.

I don't think I've enjoyed any comedy since Who's Line is It Anyway? and that didn't have enough women in it. Josie Lawrence and Sandy Tosvig (sp?) were the only ones I remember. JL was brilliant - the only other thing I've seen her in was a film called Enchanted April that remains one of my favourites.

[ 15. February 2014, 06:26: Message edited by: Huia ]

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

Yes, it was. What I particularly disliked was making fun of those who could not defend themselves.

Posted by Eliab (# 9153) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
Kath and Kim was shown over here. I thought it was irritating, (probably missed all the 'in' jokes) but my oldest brother liked it. He likes a lot of comedy that leaves me feeling irritated.

I watched that (well, more, I've been in my living room while someone else was watching that).

It's not my sense of humour at all, but I didn't get that it was aimed at any particular class group. The title characters are certainly tasteless and thick, but I can't recall them being especially impoverished or of low social status. I thought it was poking fun at thick people (that is, all of us, at some stage or other).

I don't doubt that an Australian audience would have picked up on social nuances I missed, but it seems to me that most of the humour that made it over here didn't depend on those nuances. A British audience is unlikely to find it hilarious that working class Australians are portrayed as vulgar. Yet the show was (unaccountably to me) funny enough to make quite a few of my friends howl with laughter and repeat quotes from it until I wished they'd bloody well move to Australia.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

I never thought Kath and Kim were trying to laugh AT people, by targeting someone other than themselves. Rather, they were laughing with people.

The show would never have been the success that it was if the average person in the average suburb thought that Gina Riley and Jane Turner were having a nasty go at them. It was a success because they were relatable characters. And Kath was basically a nice person.

It was never something I watched regularly, I only ever caught the occasional episode - most memorably Kylie Minogue's appearance which was genius - but it certainly never came across to me as having a nasty tone. It was thoroughly affectionate towards the characters it was portraying.

UBB.classic^TM 6.5.0