Ship of Fools: Preaching on the bus

Thread: Preaching on the bus - OK or not? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :

I was riding the bus this morning and as usual it was fairly silent, being mostly tired office workers.

A middle aged woman stood up and said "Excuse me everyone" and began to do some kind of preaching. She mentioned that she had a prophecy that someone on the bus's destiny had been blocked, and that there was an international fasting movement to combat this. I have no idea if it was Christian or what religion it was. We all ignored her of course.

But at the next stop, the bus driver got out of his vestibule, marched towards her, and said "I've told you before, you can't get on this bus and start with this nonsense." She kept preaching, he continued to shout in her face. It was uncomfortable and I got off and walked to my final destination as that bus wasn't going anywhere soon.

I found this woman quite annoying. But then I wondered whether it's fair for people to be banned from preaching on public transport. Certainly people have loud obnoxious conversations or play music out of speakers which are as bothersome, but I've never seen a bus driver stop and approach someone for those things. It struck me additionally, that a middle aged woman preaching religion is less of a scary target than a group of hooded teenagers, and perhaps that's why she was singled out. The bus driver was needlessly aggressive, in my view.

So the questions are:

- is it currently banned/illegal to preach on public transportation (this was London BTW), and if so is that fair?

- why are we less willing to tolerate other types of noisy behaviour or disruption but not religious proselytizing or preaching? Is it because we think the religious are "easier targets" for taking out frustration than others? Or is it something to do with the view that religion should be private?

Posted by Yonatan (# 11091) on :

The fact that the bus driver had spoken to this woman before might indicate a context to her behaviour - possibly mental health related. I'm thinking of the possible compulsion to preach or deliver a prophecy regardless of social context.

I don't think it is OK, simply because the 'congregation' are a 'captive' one, who can't leave without inconveniencing themselves, possibly increasing their cost to get to their destination and making themselves late for work.

It's also questionable if it is OK to preach to (at) people if they haven't chosen to enter a situation in which preaching is a reasonable possibility. It's certainly often counterproductive and seen as unnecessarily intrusive.

That being said, even allowing that the driver was in a difficult situation and possibly acting out of embarrassment or a sense of uncertainty as to resolve the situation, yelling in someone's face isn't acceptable, civilised or respectful behaviour.

I'm not sure what I would do if my destiny was blocked (whatever that means). Perhaps go on a mystical quest to consult the 'Plumber of the Fates' to help remove it.

Posted by Trin (# 12100) on :

There's only one reason to pick a bus to preach on - because the audience can't get away without significant personal inconvenience.

Preaching on a bus is therefore quite twatty behaviour and I'd be perfectly happy to ban it.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

I can't see anything in the TfL byelaws against it - and someone thinks preaching on London buses is a good idea - I guess I just pray I never meet either of them

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

It sounds like this woman is mentally ill. So it's not a matter of preaching on a bus but a matter of tolerating or not tolerating rants springing from mental illness.

When I lived in West Africa there was often preaching on the busses in Ghana. People were very interested to hear it. Preachers would often set up on street corners and passers by would stop to listen to them.

But these preachers were normal, reasonable people, preaching an orthodox message that people were interested to hear. It was completely socially acceptable.

This case seems to be different than that. Not only is it not cool to preach on Western busses, but she was apparently not all there. I don't think a blanket rule about preaching on busses is the answer, but rather a way to deal with tricky individuals.

[ 17. February 2014, 12:25: Message edited by: Freddy ]

Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
It sounds like this woman is mentally ill. So it's not a matter of preaching on a bus but a matter of tolerating or not tolerating rants springing from mental illness.

She did not in any way come across as mentally ill. She was dressed well and spoke clearly. Honestly when she started I assumed she was a Jehovah's Witness, they dress similarly and stand outside of the station where I got on the bus.

I do not believe she was mentally ill, unless religious belief is now a mental illness.

The way the driver engaged with her - if she was mentally ill and he suspected so, then he should be suspended immediately.

I don't want this to be a discussion about mental illness - because a lot of people think I'm mentally ill for believing that a guy rose from the dead and is in heaven with his father now. I want to talk about why preaching in public is almost universally seen as very terrible, but we are willing to suck it up for a whole other host of anti-social behavior when using public transport.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

Earplugs needed for sure. Thank goodness for smartphones + headphones.

My words to her would be "For God's sake, shut up!"

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

I've encountered this on buses in Central America -- they get on the bus at one stop, preach until almost at the next stop, take up a collection, and then get off at the next stop so they can board another bus (probably in the opposite direction) and repeat the process. It struck me mostly as a money-making operation, just as other vendors would get on and sell various food items.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

Some of the other anti-social behaviour is against TfL bye-laws

The only clause that could apply is:

quote:
6. (8) No person shall molest or wilfully interfere with the comfort or convenience of any person on the premises.

(that's from the Road Transport bye-laws)

Music is specifically banned in section 7

[ 17. February 2014, 12:34: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

Shouldn't advertisers have to pay for the opportunity to sell their wares? The revenue stream for ads will help relieve the burden on ticket-buyers and taxpayers. If people wish to preach, whether a religious position or a political programme or the best tampons, then they can pay for it.

Posted by TheAlethiophile (# 16870) on :

I've not heard a full preach on a bus before. I've had people come and talk to me and try to give me leaflets before. Last time that happened, the guy who was doing it was from a pentecostal church in Southwark, about 2 miles from where he got on. As I was reading Dawkins' The Extended Phenotype at the time, I guess he thought I was a lost cause didn't bother me too much. He was very polite and moved on if he was asked to.

I wouldn't advocate preaching on the bus, but then I'm not a big fan of street preaching generally. It is more irritating than educating.

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
I don't want this to be a discussion about mental illness - because a lot of people think I'm mentally ill for believing that a guy rose from the dead and is in heaven with his father now. I want to talk about why preaching in public is almost universally seen as very terrible, but we are willing to suck it up for a whole other host of anti-social behavior when using public transport.

I travel by public transport a lot. I require two things when I get on the bus/Metro. Firstly, that it'll deliver me to my destination mostly as per the timetable. Secondly, that it provides a safe environment for me and my fellow passengers.

I'm not willing to put up with anti-social behaviour. If it's reasonable for me to do so (in that I won't put other passengers at risk by escalating matters), then I'll intervene. Neither would I be willing to stand idly by while someone with no social awareness whatsoever harangues a bus full of people which, frankly, is bang out of order.

Okay, she's not mentally ill*. She's still harassing the passengers, and as a Christian I would have expected you to intervene because that is good witness, good neighbourliness and good practice. Also, if she was that much of a prophet, she would have known exactly who she wanted to speak to.

If it had been a beardy jihadist calling you an infidel, I'm pretty certain I know what the reaction would have been. Same behaviour, different religion. Just no.

*making a judgement as to whether someone's mentally ill based on how they dress and how they speak? Dudes...

Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
It sounds like this woman is mentally ill.

She must be - who speaks to strangers on public transport in London?

A Mormon once tried to engage me while I was travelling by tube. "Where are you going?", he asked. I think he meant that figuratively, in terms of my life, etc., because when I replied "Oval, via Waterloo" it seemed to knock him off his stride.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:

I'm not willing to put up with anti-social behaviour. If it's reasonable for me to do so (in that I won't put other passengers at risk by escalating matters), then I'll intervene

I agree.

Preaching at a captive audience on a bus is precisely as antisocial as getting on that bus with a stereo and a gang of your friends and playing music. Either should result in your summary eviction from the bus.

Posted by Yonatan (# 11091) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
*making a judgement as to whether someone's mentally ill based on how they dress and how they speak? Dudes...

I don't think I was doing that regarding the woman's speech and I didn't mention how she was dressed. I was merely saying that as an influence on her behaviour, mental illness was a plausible possibility.

Certain elements of speech can be indicative of mental illness either functional or organic. For example, persistent word finding difficulties or word understanding difficulties can be an indicator of dementia, uninhibited behaviour and reduced respect of boundaries an indicator of deterioration of the frontal lobe. Pressure of speech and the perceived need to express thoughts and emotions can be observed in people with a mood disorder etc.

As I wasn't there and the situation was hardly contusive to a proper assessment, I have no idea if I would have thought the woman in question was suffering from some form of mental illness. I was merely suggesting it as a possibility.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Preaching at a captive audience on a bus is precisely as antisocial as getting on that bus with a stereo and a gang of your friends and playing music. Either should result in your summary eviction from the bus.

I agree. The problem is that some folk - perhaps including this lady - would say that they "must obey God rather than man (sic)"; in other words, that Jesus' command to "Go, preach" has far greater authority than any mere TfL Bye-law.

By the way, I think this also applies to "personal evangelists" who don't preach but go round the bus (or railway carriage) "buttonholing" people for Jesus. The explanation (or excuse) they'll give is that the folk they talk to will "never hear" any other way - and I suppose there is some force in that, specially if you believe their souls must be saved from perdition.

One other point: different cultures have different norms on privacy and related issues. There may be some parts of the world where preaching on a bus is perfectly acceptable - perhaps this lady hails from some such and has failed to make the appropriate cultural adjustment.

[ 17. February 2014, 13:12: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

Posted by Yonatan (# 11091) on :

Apologies to seekingsister regarding her not wishing the thread be turned into a discussion of mental illness. I merely felt I needed to contextualise what was a very small part of my initial reply.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Preaching at a captive audience on a bus is precisely as antisocial as getting on that bus with a stereo and a gang of your friends and playing music. Either should result in your summary eviction from the bus.

While I agree that both behaviours should result in being kicked off the bus, I disagree that they're the same. Loud music is no more than an annoying irritation, but preaching to a captive audience is harrassment - a much more serious issue.

Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :

Would those of you condemning this behaviour change your mind if it was leaflets, rather than spoken words?

I remember being on a bus during the lead up to the Iraq War, when lots of demos were taking place against it. A lady with a sheaf of papers was on board but, before getting off at her stop, she gave everyone an anti-war leaflet and also left them on the empty seats.

She got off before anyone could really react (though I think someone managed a 'would you like to live under Saddam Hussein'-type comment as she was stepping off).

I think what really irritated me - other than the littering - was that the lady had a really smug, self-satisfied look on her face (as these sorts of people sometimes do) and she was able to deliver her Parthian Shot without criticism.

[ 17. February 2014, 13:18: Message edited by: Anglican't ]

Posted by Bob Two-Owls (# 9680) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
If it had been a beardy jihadist calling you an infidel, I'm pretty certain I know what the reaction would have been. Same behaviour, different religion. Just no.

I have had that on a bus through Normanton in Derby, not necessarily a jihadist but definitely an "evangelical" Muslim from Somalia (he told me several times). I listened politely and then told him I was a Yorkshire Heathen. He looked puzzled but didn't enquire further.

To be honest I think it is just a cultural difference, many people of African origin think nothing of evangelizing at bus stops, railway platforms whether anyone else wants them to or not. As someone said to me a year or so back, "we were told that polite English people never talked about religion or money in public. Well everyone talks about money now so it must be OK to talk about religion as well". As long as they keep to messages of peace and love, don't hurt themselves or anyone else then I am pretty ambivalent towards it, no matter what religion they belong to.

Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:

If it had been a beardy jihadist calling you an infidel, I'm pretty certain I know what the reaction would have been. Same behaviour, different religion. Just no.

I don't know what religion she was from. You can reread my first post - certainly she never mentioned God, Jesus, or the Bible. She could have been a Muslim, who knows.

Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bob Two-Owls:

To be honest I think it is just a cultural difference, many people of African origin think nothing of evangelizing at bus stops, railway platforms whether anyone else wants them to or not.

To add a bit of context, the woman seemed to be West African and in her 50s, based on her appearance and accent.

The bus driver was Afro-Caribbean as well.

[ 17. February 2014, 13:29: Message edited by: seekingsister ]

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

It's confession time ...

I once 'preached' outside a busy students' union ... because it was the sort of thing we were expected/encouraged to do in the church circles I was involved with back then ...

On one occasion, in between trains at a station I suddenly had this idea that I might be being 'prompted' to preach to the people on the platform ...

I had an adrenalin rush and was about to start when I thought better of it and didn't. The rest of the journey I struggled with guilt as to whether I'd disobeyed a 'prompting of the Spirit' and so on ...

I'm a fairly level headed bloke - or at least, I think I am ... but it does illustrate the level of pressure that builds up in more 'enthusiastic' forms of religion.

What would have happened had I started to preach in an impromptu way on that occasion? I suspect I'd have simply ended up stumbling over my words and tailing off as I ran out of things to say ...

Would it have done any 'good'?

I rather doubt it.

Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :

Questions of this person's mental competence aside, I think loudly ranting (about anything, whether it's Jesus, politics or who won the game last night) to a captive audience is rude and anti-social; and, in context, potentially dangerous because the disruptive behavior certainly distracting to the driver. Because in the US you never know who may be packing a loaded firearm, I might be disinclined to say anything directly to the ranter, but I'm sure I'd be inwardly fuming, "SHUT THE **** UP."

I just don't understand the compulsion. And most street preachers I've ever heard say nothing of substance anyway -- just a loud autohypnotic recitation of Scripture and their favorite sectarian platitudes, with much Bible flapping and gesticulation. I'm sure they provide great aid, comfort and amusement to the Richard Dawkins set, though.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:

quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
It sounds like this woman is mentally ill. So it's not a matter of preaching on a bus but a matter of tolerating or not tolerating rants springing from mental illness.
She did not in any way come across as mentally ill. She was dressed well and spoke clearly. Honestly when she started I assumed she was a Jehovah's Witness, they dress similarly and stand outside of the station where I got on the bus.

I do not believe she was mentally ill, unless religious belief is now a mental illness.

The way the driver engaged with her - if she was mentally ill and he suspected so, then he should be suspended immediately.

I don't want this to be a discussion about mental illness - because a lot of people think I'm mentally ill for believing that a guy rose from the dead and is in heaven with his father now. I want to talk about why preaching in public is almost universally seen as very terrible, but we are willing to suck it up for a whole other host of anti-social behavior when using public transport.

Mentally ill people can dress well and speak clearly btw, we're not all in rags and speaking gibberish. I only do that at the weekend.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Would those of you condemning this behaviour change your mind if it was leaflets, rather than spoken words?

I remember being on a bus during the lead up to the Iraq War, when lots of demos were taking place against it. A lady with a sheaf of papers was on board but, before getting off at her stop, she gave everyone an anti-war leaflet and also left them on the empty seats.

She got off before anyone could really react (though I think someone managed a 'would you like to live under Saddam Hussein'-type comment as she was stepping off).

I think what really irritated me - other than the littering - was that the lady had a really smug, self-satisfied look on her face (as these sorts of people sometimes do) and she was able to deliver her Parthian Shot without criticism.

I would have absolutely told said anti-war protestor to not give me a leaflet and leave me alone. I think bothering what is effectively a captive audience is wrong.

Also I have heard bus drivers tell people playing loud music, eating smelly food etc to stop all the time so I am surprised the OP hasn't seen that.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

Definitely not. People on a bus in London want to get on with their life in peace. Ranting at them - for any reason, when they are captive, is unfair. I don't think it is tactically good either - people are probably not particularly receptive in this situation. It seems rather like chuggers, who put me off their charities rather than anything else.

The driver may have been over aggressive, but the indication is that they have had previous encounters - I guess she does this regularly, and she might not be amenable to polite suggestions. I think he is fully within his rights to maintain his bus as a peaceable transport. So he is within his rights, and does not have to accept carrying someone who is disturbing this peace.

If I was a driver, I would have told her to get the fuck off my bus or I would break her fucking neck. One reason why I am not in customer facing roles at all.

Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Mentally ill people can dress well and speak clearly btw, we're not all in rags and speaking gibberish. I only do that at the weekend.

So you wish me to say that this woman was mentally ill, when I know nothing about her in the slightest?

I thought saying she seemed totally in control of her mental faculties was fairer and more reasonable approach.

The motivation for the thread was, why was this woman abused by the bus driver when on a typical bus journey I observe many other anti-social behaviors that do not get the bus driver to pull over and jump out of his vestibule in a fit of rage.

Religion pushes buttons it seems. That's what I want to talk about. Not about the state of mental health treatment in Britain.

[ 17. February 2014, 14:07: Message edited by: seekingsister ]

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

Reminds me of something that happened to me several years ago. I've told this story before but will repeat it for those who haven't seen it.

I was waiting for a bus one very rainy evening when a fellow waitee started preaching to me. I couldn't walk away, of course, and still catch my bus. After what seemed an interminable wait, finally the bus came. But it stopped several feet from the bus stop to discharge a passenger. I ran up to it and boarded, but the preacher decided to remain at the bus stop. Well, after I boarded, the driver went on, not stopping at the "real" stop and leaving the preacher standing there in the rain to wait for the next bus.

Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
It's confession time ...

I once 'preached' outside a busy students' union ... because it was the sort of thing we were expected/encouraged to do in the church circles I was involved with back then ...

I know some people who preached to the audience at the cinema before the movie started and then asked people to join afterwards for a discussion on how the film's themes fit into Christianity.

So I am personally not OK with the premise, anyone who preaches in public is mentally ill. Because as you mention it is something that certain groups do quite commonly and is encouraged.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
It's confession time ...

I once 'preached' outside a busy students' union ... because it was the sort of thing we were expected/encouraged to do in the church circles I was involved with back then ...

On one occasion, in between trains at a station I suddenly had this idea that I might be being 'prompted' to preach to the people on the platform ...

I had an adrenalin rush and was about to start when I thought better of it and didn't. The rest of the journey I struggled with guilt as to whether I'd disobeyed a 'prompting of the Spirit' and so on ...

Been there, done that, bought the soapbox ... (as a student preaching on Southampton's main street on Saturday nights, right opposite the queues of people waiting for the last buses home).

A story: during my time at a Bible College in Scotland in the mid-70s, three of us were on a train returning from a service. Two of us were English, one Korean. It was about 8.30 pm and most people were on their way back to the Smoke after a day by the seaside at Largs or Saltcoats.

The Korean guy went round the carriage sharing his faith in Jesus and asking if folk were "saved". Paul and I just pretended to melt into invisibility, but this was not easy as we were all wearing uniform maroon blazers. So we just cringed and - like Gamaliel - felt spiritually guilty throughout the journey, albeit with a certain self-righteous smugness when we saw our Korean friend's conversations getting nowhere.

Later he told us off for being students at a Missionary Training College (no less) who weren't willing to talk about our faith ...

Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :

quote:
The motivation for the thread was, why was this woman abused by the bus driver when on a typical bus journey I observe many other anti-social behaviors that do not get the bus driver to pull over and jump out of his vestibule in a fit of rage.

Well, according to your OP, the passenger apparently had a history of previous disruptive behavior on the driver's bus.

It's not "persecution of Christians." It's dealing with a serially obnoxious passenger -- and someone who, by the way, has the potential to set off an even more aggressive/disruptive person whose proverbial last nerve gets dangerously twanged by her ranting.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
I know some people who preached to the audience at the cinema before the movie started and then asked people to join afterwards for a discussion on how the film's themes fit into Christianity.

That's OK, of course, if it was a special screening specifically for "enquirers" and they knew beforehand that this was going to happen, and had made their choice accordingly.

But not alright if it was a regular public performance.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Mentally ill people can dress well and speak clearly btw, we're not all in rags and speaking gibberish. I only do that at the weekend.
So you wish me to say that this woman was mentally ill, when I know nothing about her in the slightest?

I thought saying she seemed totally in control of her mental faculties was fairer and more reasonable approach.

The motivation for the thread was, why was this woman abused by the bus driver when on a typical bus journey I observe many other anti-social behaviors that do not get the bus driver to pull over and jump out of his vestibule in a fit of rage.

Religion pushes buttons it seems. That's what I want to talk about. Not about the state of mental health treatment in Britain.

Um no, I only wish you to not suggest that mental health can be diagnosed by dress or speech.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

There was maybe a history? I was on a tube journey to some outlying part of the network when a busker hopping on. Almost immediately there was a continuous announcement over the tannoy that busking was not allowed on this train we were not to give money to anyone attempting to solicit etc until the guy gave up and got off at the next stop. I felt I had just witnessed one episode in a long-drawn war.

Maybe this woman has been prophesying on this chap's bus before?

Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Um no, I only wish you to not suggest that mental health can be diagnosed by dress or speech.

I do not know if the woman was mentally ill, but in my uninformed unmedical opinion, she did not appear to be.

Any other issues with my diagnostic abilities, please PM me.

Posted by TheAlethiophile (# 16870) on :

Still, there are worse things than being preached at on a bus. During the tube strikes the other week, there was heavier traffic than normal. A "gang" got on and we were subjected to 2 and a half hours of their arguments and threats to "stab someone if this bus goes any ****ing slower."

Would have called the police if the place hadn't been gridlocked.

Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:

Maybe this woman has been prophesying on this chap's bus before?

Oh certainly, he said as much. I don't normally take that bus, my normal route has been choked up with road works so it's entirely possible that she does this 3 times a week.

However on my normal bus, there is a large group of children on their way to school, who are loud and rude and blasting music, and I have not once seen any effort by a bus driver to control their behavior.

Of the many anti-social activities I've seen on London transport this lady was easily the least threatening. Last Friday there was a man on the train with his feet on a seat drinking a beer aggressively staring at everyone. I'd trade him with destiny woman any day.

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

I think the real issue re this woman's mental health is not whether or not she had issues that her doctor was treating, which we cannot know at all, but whether she was untreated and out of control. I think that when people say she was not mentally ill, they mean she was not untreated and out of control. It's an easy shorthand, and I probably slip into it, but probably unfortunate because it implies that mentally ill people are generally untreated and out of control.

Having said that we should probably resist taking over this thread with a discussion of mental illness. Definitely a big enough topic on its own for multiple interesting threads!

[ 17. February 2014, 14:31: Message edited by: Gwai ]

Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :

Public transportation puts people in a vulnerable position: crowded into a moving vehicle with an ever-changing group of strangers. There is potential for accident; there's potential for crime; there's potential for the sort of interpersonal friction/unpleasantness that happens when random, anxious human beings find themselves in a confined space with one another.

I think bus drivers are within their rights to restrict, as they can and as they see fit, behaviors on the bus that threaten their ability to maintain a degree of order and peace on the bus. And I think riders have an obligation, as part of the social contract, to help maintain a peaceful and orderly bus by not acting out on their potentially disruptive impulses.

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Um no, I only wish you to not suggest that mental health can be diagnosed by dress or speech.
I do not know if the woman was mentally ill, but in my uninformed unmedical opinion, she did not appear to be.

Any other issues with my diagnostic abilities, please PM me.

I apologize for jumping to the conclusion that she was mentally ill. It was this sentence that made me think that:

quote:
She mentioned that she had a prophecy that someone on the bus's destiny had been blocked, and that there was an international fasting movement to combat this.

Seemed unusual to me.

But I understand that she did not appear abnormal and that this is not the point of the thread.

I would think, though, that bus drivers would be well within their rights to try to control any kind of behavior that bothers the passengers. People could, and no doubt do, use busses and trains to harangue the crowd for money, sell things, make political speeches, and any number of other things. But since I have seldom witnessed this I expect that it is somehow discouraged.

But in Ghana it was both entertaining and well accepted. [Angel]

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
I was on a tube journey to some outlying part of the network when a busker hopping on. Almost immediately there was a continuous announcement over the tannoy that busking was not allowed on this train we were not to give money to anyone attempting to solicit etc until the guy gave up and got off at the next stop. I felt I had just witnessed one episode in a long-drawn war.

Ah, you clearly know the District Line (the buskers' favourite) as well as I once did!

Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :

I would think that yelling/gesticulating trumps aggressive staring as a disruptive influence on a bus.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

Preaching to a captive audience is wrong. It's taking advantage of their circumstances, and imposing your will on them when they cannot refuse. It's on the milder end of the same spectrum as kidnapping and rape, which also involve forcing your will on someone against their will. It's anti-Christian.

Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
It's on the milder end of the same spectrum as kidnapping and rape, which also involve forcing your will on someone against their will.

Erm, ok. But doesn't the comparison rather end there? Getting off a bus having been asked for money / given advice on eternal life / been given a leaflet doesn't really compare to getting off the floor after being physically violated, does it?

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
It's on the milder end of the same spectrum as kidnapping and rape, which also involve forcing your will on someone against their will.
Erm, ok. But doesn't the comparison rather end there? Getting off a bus having been asked for money / given advice on eternal life / been given a leaflet doesn't really compare to getting off the floor after being physically violated, does it?

Hence "milder end of the spectrum", presumably.

I'd say it is very similar to non-physical sexual harrassment, though. A man making sexually suggestive comments to all the women on board wouldn't be tolerated, would it?

Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
I would think that yelling/gesticulating trumps aggressive staring as a disruptive influence on a bus.

I feel more threatened by a drunk guy staring at me, than by a 50-something woman who wants to go on a global fast. The woman is more annoying for sure, but I have headphones. Although I actually turned them off to listen to her because I was so surprised to hear someone start giving a speech on the bus, that I figured it would be something memorable.

Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :

Can't speak for anyone else, but I am not less willing to up with noisy or disruptive behaviour on a bus. But isually most folk react well to a one on one conversation and matters can be resolved that way.

The woman in question?
As mentioned, it appears that this sort of behaviour had happened before. So having already been asked by the driver to cease and desist...she tries again. In my experience, it takes quite a lot for a driver to get out of his seat and approach a nuisance passenger (there being guidelines about such matters), so in this instance the driver has my immediate sympathies.

And the woman has my long term sympathies as she quite obviously doesn't get "Acceptable Behaviour in Public Places."

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Hence "milder end of the spectrum", presumably.

SOMEbody gets it. Not sure why one would want to justify being on the spectrum at all.

[ 17. February 2014, 15:35: Message edited by: mousethief ]

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

Preaching on a bus is rather different from preaching in the street - as in the latter example, people are free to walk on by or slightly deviate their route. Perhaps to be fair to all, there need to be special 'preaching buses' where the people getting on know that they might be hailed by a speaker; they then have the right to choose that form or transport or wait for another bus. It would be very interesting to see if those buses became popular (perhaps with hecklers?) or whether they remained empty! Of course, to be fair to all - again - these preachers should not be specifically Christian but open to others with something to say, as well.

Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :

quote:
Perhaps to be fair to all, there need to be special 'preaching buses' where the people getting on know that they might be hailed by a speaker; they then have the right to choose that form or transport or wait for another bus. It would be very interesting to see if those buses became popular (perhaps with hecklers?) or whether they remained empty! Of course, to be fair to all - again - these preachers should not be specifically Christian but open to others with something to say, as well.

And then, countdown to some bus-preacher complaining that the admittance of hecklers to the bus constitutes "persecution of Christians".

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

quote:
But then I wondered whether it's fair for people to be banned from preaching on public transport.

Totally. Who wants to be told on the way to work, first thing in the morning, that you're going to Hell?

I met one of these once on the Tube (Afro-Caribbean lady, 50+). She got into our carriage and harangued the lot of us. People buried themselves in books, plugged their headphones in and studiously avoided eye contact. She knew it and berated us for it, but none of us had asked her to start up on our moral failings and lack of spirituality. Luckily, she moved into the next carriage at the next stop.

Shouting at strangers on their way to work that if you don't stop what you're doing RIGHT NOW and START LOVING JESUS or BURN IN HELL and boy, will it be HORRIBLE, is a pretty good way to get anyone's back up, especially first thing in the morning when you're on your way to work.

Posted by Bullfrog. (# 11014) on :

Preaching, like most forms of communication, depends somewhat on the consent of the audience. Preaching to a captive audience, to me, breaks this implicit covenant between speaker and audience.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

I recall, not on a bus, someone doing this at a bus stop while probably 100 or so people waited for several different busses sometime in the early 1980s. My response - the woman was right beside me - was "yes I do know Jesus, he's in my chem class". This was during a time where spotting Elvis was all the rage, and someone had just mentioned that Elvis was in his chemistry class. Several other people said things and the person desisted, but I thought I was pretty funny, though the humour was not original.

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Perhaps to be fair to all, there need to be special 'preaching buses' where the people getting on know that they might be hailed by a speaker; they then have the right to choose that form or transport or wait for another bus. It would be very interesting to see if those buses became popular (perhaps with hecklers?) or whether they remained empty! Of course, to be fair to all - again - these preachers should not be specifically Christian but open to others with something to say, as well.

Must be nice to live somewhere where there's excess municipal bus service that can be given to preachers. In the U.S. service tends to range from barely adequate to theoretical. Now if the preachers wanted to hire their own bus and provide a service, that would be a fine alternative. I suspect it would not be popular except among the desperate.

Posted by The5thMary (# 12953) on :

This discussion is interesting and all but what do you do when you're a captive of an obnoxious bus DRIVER?! When I lived in Seattle, there was this one bus driver who obviously wanted to be a comedian or an actor... one of my friends went to high school with him and said he had been that way in school, too. Anyway, he would get on the microphone and do this long ramble, making extremely stupid jokes and then laughing at them and getting annoyed when most people ignored him. He just got louder and kept asking why people weren't charmed by his routine. Most people in Seattle don't like to make waves so I'd say nearly all of them would just sit in their seats, looking anxious. Not me! I yelled, "Shut up! You're not funny!" and everyone looked at me in horror. The bus driver didn't see who had called him out but he did, eventually subside into a sulking silence. At least for that one ride. Every time I got him as a driver, I tried to get to my destination on his bus but usually had to pull the cord and escape to wait for another bus. THAT was obnoxious.

Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :

The5thMary: I once rode a city bus whose driver, in the middle of the route, suddenly asked the riders if they minded taking about a brief detour. Now, this was a very friendly, funny guy, and people were enjoying his commentary along the way -- and it wssn't the rush hour -- so people kind of smiled and shrugged and said, "Why not?" The driver went about four blocks off-route through a residential section, stopped along the street and noted, "That's my house. I just wanted to make sure that my neighbor didn't throw his trash over on my side of the fence today. Because he always tries to do that when he misses trash day and I'm not at home." As it turned out, his neighbor had done precisely that, so we then had to wait while the driver left the bus, trotted down his driveway and tossed his neighbor's trash bag back over the fence. When he returned he said, "There -- I feel better now," and we proceeded back to where he'd left off on the route.

Posted by Mockingale (# 16599) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
I was riding the bus this morning and as usual it was fairly silent, being mostly tired office workers.

A middle aged woman stood up and said "Excuse me everyone" and began to do some kind of preaching. She mentioned that she had a prophecy that someone on the bus's destiny had been blocked, and that there was an international fasting movement to combat this. I have no idea if it was Christian or what religion it was. We all ignored her of course.

But at the next stop, the bus driver got out of his vestibule, marched towards her, and said "I've told you before, you can't get on this bus and start with this nonsense." She kept preaching, he continued to shout in her face. It was uncomfortable and I got off and walked to my final destination as that bus wasn't going anywhere soon.

I found this woman quite annoying. But then I wondered whether it's fair for people to be banned from preaching on public transport. Certainly people have loud obnoxious conversations or play music out of speakers which are as bothersome, but I've never seen a bus driver stop and approach someone for those things. It struck me additionally, that a middle aged woman preaching religion is less of a scary target than a group of hooded teenagers, and perhaps that's why she was singled out. The bus driver was needlessly aggressive, in my view.

So the questions are:

- is it currently banned/illegal to preach on public transportation (this was London BTW), and if so is that fair?

- why are we less willing to tolerate other types of noisy behaviour or disruption but not religious proselytizing or preaching? Is it because we think the religious are "easier targets" for taking out frustration than others? Or is it something to do with the view that religion should be private?

I question what good it can possibly do to use such an opportunity with a captive, nonvoluntary audience. I'm not aware of anyone who came to faith because they were cornered by a zealot and forced to listen to unbidden preachifying for a half hour. I know that in the days when I didn't believe I would have simply resented the hell out of it and written the woman off as a loony tune.

/I'd still write her off as a loony tune, though perhaps well meaning.

Posted by PaulBC (# 13712) on :

This is something I would not want happening on the bus I ride . It is impolite and a waste of evryones time .

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

Health and safety, she's distracting the driver, stop the bus, eject her. In that order of course.

Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :

Whilst I have a bit of a reputation for either chatting with or actually ejecting foul passengers from peaceful buses [sadly, very true. I am a nightmare to travel with ], before this thread goes the way of all flesh I do want to add something and please excuse the repetition if you've heard this before:

At one desperately difficult time in my own life a guy got on the bus and pronounced the Book of Common Prayer's confession and absolution over my head, with one hand on my shoulders, whilst dressed akin to a pirate.

He kinda knew me, but had no idea at all of the situation that I found myself in and not a clue about where I had come from and what I was going back home to.

Without a single shadow of a doubt, on that day (with all of his own very public and obvious problems), that man spoke the word of God into my life and I will be eternally grateful.

RIP Micky, I never got to say thank you either.

Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PaulBC:
This is something I would not want happening on the bus I ride . It is impolite and a waste of evryones time .

It was definitely weird, but the only time wasted was by the bus driver stopping the bus and shouting at her for 10 minutes. We all mostly had headphones in anyway - and yes I hit "pause" when I heard her start talking because I suspected it would be something...umm...different. However I'm still not convinced that a woman trying to unblock someone's destiny is more of a disruption than the bus driver's outburst.

My view may of course be skewed by my time spent in New York City where people preaching on the subway is a 1-2x weekly occurrence.

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

I definitely see the downside to the bus being stopped! However, I'm also kind of glad the bus driver protects those of us who don't wear headphones. I prefer to read, and it's really hard to focus when someone's talking at you. (Never heard a preacher, but people come sometimes to tell exaggerated stories of misery to con the vulnerable into money.)

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
whilst dressed akin to a pirate.

This is the only redeeming part to this story.

Posted by Justinian (# 5357) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:

Maybe this woman has been prophesying on this chap's bus before?
Oh certainly, he said as much. I don't normally take that bus, my normal route has been choked up with road works so it's entirely possible that she does this 3 times a week.

However on my normal bus, there is a large group of children on their way to school, who are loud and rude and blasting music, and I have not once seen any effort by a bus driver to control their behavior.

Of the many anti-social activities I've seen on London transport this lady was easily the least threatening. Last Friday there was a man on the train with his feet on a seat drinking a beer aggressively staring at everyone. I'd trade him with destiny woman any day.

One huge difference is that the kids do not intentionally set out to disrupt others. The starer, from your account just wanted to be left alone. Your witness-for-Dawkins in the OP on the other hand was knowingly and deliberately being rude and quite intentionally actively rather than passively disrupting the peace of everyone else on that bus. The purpose of kids with loud music is because they like loud music and just don't care. The purpose of bus preaching is to deliberately break into everyone else's life and prevent them having the peace of urban solitude.

It's the difference between someone brushing past a table and knocking a beer over them, and someone quite deliberately picking up a glass of water and throwing it into someone else's face. Yes, the beer will be worse at a many levels as it's harder to get out. But the person who'll be banned from the pub is the one who deliberately throws water in someone else's face - and for very good reason.

Or to put things another way, the way to deal with things on public transport is live and let live. Even the kids with loud music are just about inside the rules. Your evangelist point blank refuses to let live.

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

Very well said, Justinian. I realized today that I spent my whole bus ride to work today standing within a foot or two of one of my coworkers who I quite like. Neither of us want to chat much that early in the morning, so we probably wouldn't have said much if I had seen him. (He said hello to me as we were getting off.) However, I was reminded of how very much I ignore everything on the bus so that I can be alone despite the number of people standing and sitting within a couple feet of me. The kids are accepting the code that we are all alone together. The music is probably how they act when they are alone, and it is certainly how they ignore everyone else. The preacher is, as you say violating that code, by NOT acting as if she is alone.

Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
One huge difference is that the kids do not intentionally set out to disrupt others.

Have you ridden a bus lately?

Absolutely many of them are setting out to be disruptive, often even hurling insults at other riders who glance at them.

I'm not advocating bus preaching. I just got the feeling that the preacher is a soft target and that's why action was taken against her.

Someone did ask how I'd react if it was a jihadist - well I wonder how the bus driver would have reacted to a jihadist as well. Rather differently I would guess.

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

Fair enough then re the kids. The ones on busses I ride do ignore everyone else. You may be right that she was a soft target. She may also though offend the bus driver more than the children do. (Not sure if that's a better reason or a worse reason for the driver to focus mainly on her.)

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

In a huge multicultural metropolis don't you just have to put up with this sort of thing? People doing the occasional strange thing in public is part of the scenery there.

The only solution if you live and/or work in such places is to save up hard and then take your money away to some small, charming place where people are all of one mind when it comes to behaving themselves in public!

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

Chicago counts as a huge multicultural metropolis, but we don't have to put up with that particular thing. Our rapid transit organization is very serious about people creating noise on the train or on most busses. In general people just don't. (Certain routes that are considered lower class have more noise. I think it is considered the will of those who live there though I don't know if that is actually true.) The only disruption I hear is once a month maybe I see a sob story busker on the train. They're annoying, and almost always lying* so I hate to see them get people's charity, but hard to stop as they're homeless and probably have little to lose.

*My "favorite" is the guy who I saw telling a story about how he's just got out of prison and was trying to turn his life around, but only had 5 more copies of his resume. If we would just give money, he'd get a job. Of course weeks later when I saw him again, he had still just gotten out of prison last week, and still had only a couple more copies of his resume.

[ 18. February 2014, 15:08: Message edited by: Gwai ]

Posted by ChaliceGirl (# 13656) on :

Haven't been subjected to loud preaching on the bus, but I've been talked to by Jehovah's Witness on the bus and at bus stops. They'll start out making small talk, then say something like, "It's a crazy world, but there's hope..." and out comes the literature.

Oh well, I just grin and bear it. Rather deal with that than the loud cell phone talkers, or people who suddenly don't know what "Excuse me" means and don't move aside.

But in the case in the OP, it sounds like she's been a problem for awhile, and if she is distracting the driver from doing his job, it is an issue.

Posted by ToujoursDan (# 10578) on :

This is par for the course on the New York Subway. I have to encounter this kind of preaching at least once a month, at least. I just put my headphones on and read. We don't have much in the way of noise rules (and those that exist are rarely enforced.)

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
... I don't want this to be a discussion about mental illness - because a lot of people think I'm mentally ill for believing that a guy rose from the dead and is in heaven with his father now. I want to talk about why preaching in public is almost universally seen as very terrible, but we are willing to suck it up for a whole other host of anti-social behavior when using public transport.

I'd like to come back on a slightly different issue here.

Someone preaching is pretty harmless. Nobody is being threatened. It's not a serious abuse. It's less of a nuisance than music or the beat of someone else's over-loud iPod. Furthermore it can be defended as freedom of speech. Perhaps it's something we ought to accept we have to put up with.

A more salient question IMHO is this. Would the driver have tried to intervene if some yobs had started throwing bottles around, fighting (even have just with each other), threatening other passengers or really harassing them? If so, then I think it may be legitimate for him to control any passenger who is intruding into the life of other passengers.

Otherwise however, there is an increasing tendency for officials, whether bus drivers, police or whoever, to go for the easy hanging fruit, but to funk it when it comes to dealing with troublemakers where doing so might genuinely threaten their personal convenience or safety.

quote:
originally posted by Toujours Dan
This is par for the course on the New York Subway. I have to encounter this kind of preaching at least once a month, at least.

Your underground must be a much quieter mechanical environment than ours. Once a train starts, it's so noisy you have to suspend even a conversation with the person sitting next to you until it stops at the next station.

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :

About 60 years ago it was the done thing for groups of trainee Salvation Army officers - cadets - to take the train/tube/bus to their various training venues. Travelling as a 'brigade' (maybe half a dozen) they would be led by a sergeant who, at various points on the journey would instruct 'Cadet Smith' to relate his/her testimony to the other passengers.

I thank God that this practice was long discontinued when i went into training.

Having said that we used to do short, enthusiastic open air meetings on Friday nights in Soho/Leicester Square/Gt Windmill Street. I remember standing in the doorway of a XXX cinema on Gt Windmill Street challenging people who looked like they wanted to go in.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
... I don't want this to be a discussion about mental illness - because a lot of people think I'm mentally ill for believing that a guy rose from the dead and is in heaven with his father now. I want to talk about why preaching in public is almost universally seen as very terrible, but we are willing to suck it up for a whole other host of anti-social behavior when using public transport.
I'd like to come back on a slightly different issue here.

Someone preaching is pretty harmless. Nobody is being threatened. It's not a serious abuse. It's less of a nuisance than music or the beat of someone else's over-loud iPod. Furthermore it can be defended as freedom of speech. Perhaps it's something we ought to accept we have to put up with.

A more salient question IMHO is this. Would the driver have tried to intervene if some yobs had started throwing bottles around, fighting (even have just with each other), threatening other passengers or really harassing them? If so, then I think it may be legitimate for him to control any passenger who is intruding into the life of other passengers.

Otherwise however, there is an increasing tendency for officials, whether bus drivers, police or whoever, to go for the easy hanging fruit, but to funk it when it comes to dealing with troublemakers where doing so might genuinely threaten their personal convenience or safety.

quote:
originally posted by Toujours Dan
This is par for the course on the New York Subway. I have to encounter this kind of preaching at least once a month, at least.
Your underground must be a much quieter mechanical environment than ours. Once a train starts, it's so noisy you have to suspend even a conversation with the person sitting next to you until it stops at the next station.

Someone telling me that I am going to Hell is definitely threatening. I have also seen bus drivers intervene and stop anti-social behaviour of all kinds. YMMV of course but in my experience bus drivers are hardly shy and retiring, and are not scared to take someone up on their behaviour.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

I don't know if I'd find this kind of speechifying threatening, exactly. Unless the speaker were planning to dispatch me to hell forthwith I think I'd mostly just find it embarrassing.

OTOH, I might get worried if the individual looked and sounded half-crazed, it was 11pm at night, and I was the only other person on the bus....

Posted by argona (# 14037) on :

Seems to me this issue says a lot about how we regard public space these days. Was this woman actually intimidating anyone? I mean really intimidating, not simply interrupting their desire to travel in an isolationist bubble as though the world around them didn't exist, or at least didn't impinge on their wish to ignore it?

I love the noisy tumult of city life. On public transport, I'm fascinated by the people around me, the life on the streets we pass through. Idiosyncracy, even noisy idiosyncracy, is something to be treasured. But that's not where we're heading. Public space is to be tamed, pasteurised. Nothing tolerated that might divert us from the imperatives to work, make money and spend it. All else is disruption. Just plug your iPod into your ears and ignore it.

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

Everyone keeps suggesting headphones. Speaking of public space, are we presuming a public space where everyone must be possessed of headphones? Must we choose between going about the world deaf because I've plugged my ears or being harassed by obnoxious people.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

I'm going to suggest singing showtunes.

Posted by Mere Nick (# 11827) on :

It could be worse. The lady could have pro poisonous snake handling beliefs and whip out a rattlesnake on the bus.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Everyone keeps suggesting headphones. Speaking of public space, are we presuming a public space where everyone must be possessed of headphones? Must we choose between going about the world deaf because I've plugged my ears or being harassed by obnoxious people.

Not really - but it is an excellent way of blocking out extraneous noise, passing the time and listening to the podcast/novel/music you choose and enjoy. I'm learning German on mine.

[Smile]

Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Someone telling me that I am going to Hell is definitely threatening.

The woman was not preaching anything resembling this, nor was her speech indicative of any recognizable religion.

Just wish to reiterate this so we don't argue against straw men.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Someone telling me that I am going to Hell is definitely threatening.
The woman was not preaching anything resembling this, nor was her speech indicative of any recognizable religion.

So what was she actually preaching, then? Almost all the street/transport preachers I've come across feature hellfire a lot and are usually pretty quick to bring in a mention.

Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I'd like to come back on a slightly different issue here.

Someone preaching is pretty harmless. Nobody is being threatened. It's not a serious abuse. It's less of a nuisance than music or the beat of someone else's over-loud iPod. Furthermore it can be defended as freedom of speech. Perhaps it's something we ought to accept we have to put up with.

A more salient question IMHO is this. Would the driver have tried to intervene if some yobs had started throwing bottles around, fighting (even have just with each other), threatening other passengers or really harassing them? If so, then I think it may be legitimate for him to control any passenger who is intruding into the life of other passengers.

Otherwise however, there is an increasing tendency for officials, whether bus drivers, police or whoever, to go for the easy hanging fruit, but to funk it when it comes to dealing with troublemakers where doing so might genuinely threaten their personal convenience or safety.

That's exactly the point I was thinking about when I made this post.

A 50 year old woman preaching is not threatening - particularly the type of preaching in this case which was very new agey. The driver's behavior made everyone much more uncomfortable.

I've been on a London bus where a group of boys boarded and attempted to remove another boy sitting on the top deck by dragging him down the aisle and stairs onto the street. The bus driver just stopped and sat in his cubicle. He could have made an announcement that the police were being called and that all other passengers should exit while he contacts the authorities. Perhaps he did call someone but he did nothing to warn the boys about their behavior or to address the fears of other passengers.

So I agree with you, it seems that the low hanging fruit of a preaching lady is the one that gets attention - perhaps the pent-up rage of a bus driver who deals with a lot of nonsense that he is too nervous to address directly - and not the real issues of violence and intimidation that happen on a daily basis.

Here's a story I just read this morning about teens who attacked a man for asking them to stop pressing the "STOP" button:

Teens who attacked passenger spared jail

Posted by Eirenist (# 13343) on :

I was on a RER train in Paris when a young man got on at the Cite Universitaire and made a speech in which he told us that as a protest against the capitalist system he was refusing to work and needed money to buy food. He asked us, his fellow-passengers, to make a monetary contribution to his welfare. Nobody moved or offered him anything. He swore at us and got off at the next stop, presumably to try his luck on the next train. He was well-spoken and apparently sane.
Apologies for tangent.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:

I've been on a London bus where a group of boys boarded and attempted to remove another boy sitting on the top deck by dragging him down the aisle and stairs onto the street. The bus driver just stopped and sat in his cubicle.

And I don't blame him! One of those lads could have had a knife.

As someone said upthread, in the USA it could have been a gun.

Maybe he did take his frustration out on preaching-woman, but she didn't exactly make life easy for herself either did she?

Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
So what was she actually preaching, then? Almost all the street/transport preachers I've come across feature hellfire a lot and are usually pretty quick to bring in a mention.

I described it in the OP but to the best of my memory it was:

"Excuse me. I have received a prophecy that there is someone on this bus whose destiny has been blocked. There is a way for you to resolve this issue. An international fasting movement has started to help people unblock their destinies..." at which point I couldn't hear what she was saying over the bus driver who had started yelling at her.

Nothing about God, Bible, Christianity, hell, suffering, etc.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

I've had that sort of preaching on the tube - and been handed leaflets.

And I've been on buses where they've stopped the bus and told the kids they've called the police.

The funniest was the lad who was vandalising the tube in front of me and another guy. I was doing my best teacher glare and debating how much else I was going to do when the guy got up and challenged the teenager. "What's it to do with you?"
"Well, I'm an off duty London Transport Police officer."
Kid got off at the next stop and I got to report the incident with descriptions with my new friend.

(The London gang culture in Bow is very scary - Tower Hamlets recently arrested 147 teenagers in an attempt to clamp down on this. Working with these challenging teenagers in the community we permanently have antennae on alert for gang stuff - and one of our kids is currently in custody awaiting trial for stabbing a couple of other kids.)

Posted by Bullfrog. (# 11014) on :

Chicago Transit Authority has posted rules against soliciting on buses. Seems to me that any preaching is some kind of solicitation. It's a spiritual solicitation, but you're still basically soliciting a response. It's a non-consensual interaction in a space that is governed by a mutual consent on norms and expectations.

The bus is not your church. The bus is not the public square. The bus is not a space of voluntary interaction.

I wish people had the courtesy to respect people's privacy in public places instead of abusing the fact that people, once on the bus, cannot leave voluntarily without incurring a substantial cost. It's a very mild form of abuse, violating someone else's privacy without their consent. If you want to preach on a street corner, I can cross the street, but on a train, I cannot step out of the train without adding 20 minutes to whatever errand I'm trying to run.

Preaching on the bus is one of those things where the manner in which the message is conveyed drowns out whatever the message is. And the message is that you're presumptuous and rude, and your preaching is so inept that the only way you can get anyone to listen is to capture an audience and hold them hostage.

Posted by Bullfrog. (# 11014) on :

Chicago Transit Authority has posted rules against soliciting on buses and train. Seems to me that any preaching is some kind of solicitation. It's a spiritual solicitation, but you're still basically soliciting a response. It's a non-consensual interaction in a space that is governed by a mutual consent on norms and expectations.

The bus is not your church. The bus is not the public square. The bus is not a space of voluntary interaction.

I wish people had the courtesy to respect people's privacy instead of abusing the fact that people, once on the bus, cannot leave voluntarily without incurring a substantial cost. It's a very mild form of abuse, violating someone else's privacy without their consent. If you want to preach on a street corner, I can cross the street, but on a train, I cannot step out of the train without adding 20 minutes to whatever errand I'm trying to run.

Preaching on the bus is one of those things where the manner in which the message is conveyed drowns out whatever the message is. And the message is that you're presumptuous and rude, and your preaching is so inept that the only way you can get anyone to listen is to capture an audience and hold them hostage.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
Chicago Transit Authority has posted rules against soliciting on buses. Seems to me that any preaching is some kind of solicitation. It's a spiritual solicitation, but you're still basically soliciting a response. It's a non-consensual interaction in a space that is governed by a mutual consent on norms and expectations.

The bus is not your church. The bus is not the public square. The bus is not a space of voluntary interaction. ...

Sorry. However much you disapprove, it strikes me as spectacularly disproportionate to liken what this woman was doing to prostitution, or to describe what you regard as preaching in an inappropriate context as spiritual soliciting.

Besides, in this country, the argument about private and public space doesn't work because it's also illegal for prostitutes to solicit in the street.

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Sorry. However much you disapprove, it strikes me as spectacularly disproportionate to liken what this woman was doing to prostitution, or to describe what you regard as preaching in an inappropriate context as spiritual soliciting.

"Soliciting" does not refer only to prostitution.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
"Soliciting" does not refer only to prostitution.

That may be so in different contexts, but, unless it's used differently in Chicago, that's how it's understood in ordinary usage.

Posted by Bullfrog. (# 11014) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
"Soliciting" does not refer only to prostitution.
That may be so in different contexts, but, unless it's used differently in Chicago, that's how it's understood in ordinary usage.

That's not what it means in this context, and that's not what I meant. The most common offense is begging.

In this town, prostitution in general is illegal everywhere, so the idea of there being legitimate places to solicit those kinds of favors doesn't make sense.

[ 19. February 2014, 18:24: Message edited by: Bullfrog. ]

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

[crosspost]

Not round here. Maybe that's just a Bristol thing.

[ 19. February 2014, 18:24: Message edited by: Marvin the Martian ]

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

Ooh er my luvver. Down yer we love all they solicitors soliciting.

Problem is, my luvver, we can't afford 'em.

Ooh ar me harties.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

I think the preaching woman was in the wrong, and that the driver's handling probably made things worse.

I don't think I've dealt with a bus preacher--but did have the misfortune to deal with a couple of missionaries (Mormon or JW) who got on the bus, started to work from the front to the back, and sat down where they could to share whatever. I think maybe one stood over people, where there wasn't a seat available, and witnessed to those particular people. It felt predatory, in a sense.

On SF public transportation, music devices are supposed to be inaudible to other passengers. Cell conversations are supposed to be kept to a low volume. (That isn't always observed, which annoys people. Then you get the person who is having a very audible, very private cell conversation--and gets mad because people are paying attention.)

Sometimes, there's violence: beatings, violent theft (in full sight of everyone), weapons, escalating conflicts. I was on a bus, a few years ago, when a couple of grown men had a verbal fight and were about to get off the bus and go at it. I think one of them left. The driver got into it so much with the remaining guy that he (the driver) became ragingly furious, and basically called the guy out--the driver and the guy were going to fight. Very scary. IIRC, the driver did put in a call to HQ for help. I think that's when I left the bus--fortunately, I was close to home.

I understand the argument that a bus preacher may be low-hanging fruit. But that doesn't mean that she should be able to do what she did.

Posted by Justinian (# 5357) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
Have you ridden a bus lately?

About half a dozen times per week since the new year. Only time I've had a problem with kids doing more than chatting noisily the bus drive threw them off.

quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Someone preaching is pretty harmless. Nobody is being threatened.

Have you listened to the supposed Good News of the Gospel recently? It might not be immediately threatening - but find me a bigger threat than telling someone they are going to be tortured and burned for ever. And that's without getting into the homophobic messages woven into a lot of contemporary Christianity, especially the types that go in for being a public nuisance - and those are definitely threatening.

quote:
It's not a serious abuse. It's less of a nuisance than music or the beat of someone else's over-loud iPod.

That doesn't remotely match my experience. Speech projected for people to hear is far more disruptive to my peace than what is effectively white noise. If I'm given words that are intended to make sense and are aimed at me I can not ignore them.

quote:
Furthermore it can be defended as freedom of speech. Perhaps it's something we ought to accept we have to put up with.

Why on busses and trains?

And out of curiosity, what would your opinion be if an actual satanist got up and started evangelising? Or a Jihadist? Would you call for both those to be considered freedom of speech (never mind that it's not in a public space and you'd be politely or impolitely escorted out of a restaurant for the same behaviour).

quote:
A more salient question IMHO is this. Would the driver have tried to intervene if some yobs had started throwing bottles around, fighting (even have just with each other), threatening other passengers or really harassing them?

Some would, some wouldn't. They ought to and I've seen it happen.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Ethne Alba--

Cool experience with Micky.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Someone telling me that I am going to Hell is definitely threatening.
The woman was not preaching anything resembling this, nor was her speech indicative of any recognizable religion.

Just wish to reiterate this so we don't argue against straw men.

Of course - I was talking about street (and indeed bus) preachers more generally, I should have clarified, sorry.

Posted by The5thMary (# 12953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Everyone keeps suggesting headphones. Speaking of public space, are we presuming a public space where everyone must be possessed of headphones? Must we choose between going about the world deaf because I've plugged my ears or being harassed by obnoxious people.
Not really - but it is an excellent way of blocking out extraneous noise, passing the time and listening to the podcast/novel/music you choose and enjoy. I'm learning German on mine.

I usually don't like listening to tunes whilst riding on public transportation because I hate having to turn up the volume of my music player to compete with outside noises. However, I also hate being accosted by preachers/men who want to "hook up"/drunk people, etc. so I sometimes carry a pair of headphones that are tucked into my jacket or backpack and attached to nothing. Hey, the bothersome people don't know I'm not listening to their shtick. I have ear plugs underneath the headphones. A win-win for me.

Posted by Timothy the Obscure (# 292) on :

Somebody said "Sharing your faith in public is like farting in an elevator [lift]. It feels wonderful to let it all out, but nobody else appreciates it."

Unfortunately, if you are one of the targets, all you can do is hold your nose.

Posted by Alogon (# 5513) on :

This kind of conduct sounds quintessentially American (in the worst way-- I say regretfully, as one). It's classic hustling, which entails an assumption that success involves pushing one's own agenda into the attention of perfect strangers-- and if they can't escape, so much the better. We're good at it, after centuries of experience. The O.P., however, hails from London.

Travelers on the New York and Philadelphia subways (tubes) are accustomed to other riders who, once the doors have closed, stand up in the aisles and raise their voices to the entire car pleading for handouts. They are probably desperately hungry, yet it's against the rules. Rules? Who cares?

A friend (American, although his dream is to become an expat) chatted to me only last night, with a twinge of guilt, "I pray that my country will be less influential." I get it.

Posted by Erroneous Monk (# 10858) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

I'd say it is very similar to non-physical sexual harrassment, though. A man making sexually suggestive comments to all the women on board wouldn't be tolerated, would it?

You're having a laugh if you think the driver would stop the bus, get up and shout at a bloke who was making sexually suggestive comments to the female passengers.

Posted by Bullfrog. (# 11014) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

I'd say it is very similar to non-physical sexual harrassment, though. A man making sexually suggestive comments to all the women on board wouldn't be tolerated, would it?
You're having a laugh if you think the driver would stop the bus, get up and shout at a bloke who was making sexually suggestive comments to the female passengers.

I think around here, if a passenger complained, the man in question would be ordered off the bus. Police would be called, I think, before it got violent, though that may depend on the particular driver.

Trains are another story, since the driver is in one car out of eight or twelve cars, and can't get to them all that quickly. Around here, one generally sees more shenanigans on trains.

Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
I think around here, if a passenger complained, the man in question would be ordered off the bus. Police would be called, I think, before it got violent, though that may depend on the particular driver.

Certainly not in London. There was this story earlier this week of a man who was nearly choked to death by another bus passenger, who pulled a scarf around his throat. He had to escape, run off the bus, and flag down police on the street.

C1 Bus Strangler - BBC News

Literally the only time I've seen a bus driver intervene in an incident, was this week with the preacher lady.

Posted by Bullfrog. (# 11014) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:

quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
I think around here, if a passenger complained, the man in question would be ordered off the bus. Police would be called, I think, before it got violent, though that may depend on the particular driver.
Certainly not in London. There was this story earlier this week of a man who was nearly choked to death by another bus passenger, who pulled a scarf around his throat. He had to escape, run off the bus, and flag down police on the street.

C1 Bus Strangler - BBC News

Literally the only time I've seen a bus driver intervene in an incident, was this week with the preacher lady.

That's very strange, in a bad way.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
While I agree that both behaviours should result in being kicked off the bus, I disagree that they're the same. Loud music is no more than an annoying irritation, but preaching to a captive audience is harrassment - a much more serious issue.

Actually, I don't agree. Loud music (especially given the kind of music that is usually played loudly by gangs of youths) is exactly harassment.

Someone playing "The world's greatest telephone hold music selection" with the volume turned to 11 is annoying. Playing the sort of misogynistic, racist, homophobic "thug life" glorifying "music" that I more often hear booming from passing cars on a bus is harassment.

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:

It's the difference between someone brushing past a table and knocking a beer over them, and someone quite deliberately picking up a glass of water and throwing it into someone else's face. Yes, the beer will be worse at a many levels as it's harder to get out. But the person who'll be banned from the pub is the one who deliberately throws water in someone else's face - and for very good reason.

Well, there's a different between knocking over someone's beer, apologizing and buying him another, and knocking over lots of people's beer on a regular basis and laughing at the wet, beery people.

Youths playing loud music on buses are well aware that nobody else wants to hear it, and that they are being obnoxious. As you say, they just don't care. The fact that their primary goal is to listen to their music isn't really relevant.

If a drunk urinates on your front door, his primary goal is to relieve his bladder. This doesn't make the fact that he is pissing on your door any less obnoxious, when he has plenty of bushes and gutters to choose from.

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