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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Dec Book Group-The Testament of Mary.
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Tree Bee
Ship's tiller girl
# 4033
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Posted
This month our book is The Testament of Mary by Colm Toibin
It's a short book that was short listed for this year's Booker prize.
I'd love to know what you think of it. Discussion to start earlier than usual, probably mid month.
Please post if you're joining in.
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"Any fool can make something complicated. It takes a genius to make it simple."
— Woody Guthrie
http://saysaysay54.wordpress.com
Posts: 5257 | From: me to you. | Registered: Feb 2003
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
This is sitting in my pigeon hole at work, but every time I sit down to read it I get distracted by other things, I'll try to get going on it properly this week.
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
Posts: 2035 | From: London | Registered: Jan 2007
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moonlitdoor
Shipmate
# 11707
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Posted
I don't see myself buying this but will read it if the library has it. None of the libraries in the borough had that Jorge Amado but maybe I'll have better luck with this one.
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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai
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jedijudy
Organist of the Jedi Temple
# 333
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Posted
I'm third in line to get it at my library. Hopefully the other two read quickly!
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Jasmine, little cat with a big heart.
Posts: 18017 | From: 'Twixt the 'Glades and the Gulf | Registered: Aug 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Reserved a copy from the library.
(I failed on last month's because there is exactly one book by Jorge Amado in English translation in the county, and it wasn't the right one.)
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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jedijudy
Organist of the Jedi Temple
# 333
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Posted
Well, that was quick! I picked up my copy at the library today.
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Jasmine, little cat with a big heart.
Posts: 18017 | From: 'Twixt the 'Glades and the Gulf | Registered: Aug 2001
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
I'll check with my library tomorrow.
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
I've picked up my copy from the library.
Whitechapel library is reading this as their book for December too, I noticed as I headed in and out this week.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Tree Bee
Ship's tiller girl
# 4033
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Posted
Excellent!
Must get to re reading and noting questions!
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"Any fool can make something complicated. It takes a genius to make it simple."
— Woody Guthrie
http://saysaysay54.wordpress.com
Posts: 5257 | From: me to you. | Registered: Feb 2003
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
My lovely bride got the book at the library yesterday afternoon and I am starting it now.
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Tree Bee
Ship's tiller girl
# 4033
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Posted
How are you getting on? Shall I wait till next weekend to post questions or have you already finished?
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"Any fool can make something complicated. It takes a genius to make it simple."
— Woody Guthrie
http://saysaysay54.wordpress.com
Posts: 5257 | From: me to you. | Registered: Feb 2003
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
I am reading it slowly, but I'll finish it after school today, that is to say about eleven hours from now. I might take it to school and finish the last 21 pages when my kids go to art, music or PE during the day.
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
Finished it when kids were at the library; ready for questions. Really enjoyed the book.
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Tree Bee
Ship's tiller girl
# 4033
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Posted
That's OK, I'll wait till the weekend.
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"Any fool can make something complicated. It takes a genius to make it simple."
— Woody Guthrie
http://saysaysay54.wordpress.com
Posts: 5257 | From: me to you. | Registered: Feb 2003
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Tree Bee
Ship's tiller girl
# 4033
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Posted
Hoping you've all finished; here are my questions.
Please pose your own too.
1. How does this Mary differ from your own perception of her?
2. I was moved by this re telling of the raising of Lazarus. What are your thoughts?
3. Is the chronology incorrect? Wasn't the wedding at Cana where Jesus performed his first miracle?
4. Why do you think Mary never names Jesus in this story?
5. The last sentence on page 56 sums up Mary's attitude for me. There's no joy, no connection to God, little love. I find this disturbing; do you?
6. In your opinion was this book worthy of being on this year's Man Booker short list?
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"Any fool can make something complicated. It takes a genius to make it simple."
— Woody Guthrie
http://saysaysay54.wordpress.com
Posts: 5257 | From: me to you. | Registered: Feb 2003
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jedijudy
Organist of the Jedi Temple
# 333
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Posted
1. How does this Mary differ from your own perception of her?
This is a cynical, not quite sane Mary as opposed to my perception of a graceful, loving, God-oriented woman. I kept waiting for her to turn into "my" Mary. It didn't happen.
2. I was moved by this re telling of the raising of Lazarus. What are your thoughts?
The book actually gave voice to some of the concerns I've always had about Lazarus coming back to life. Surely it would be so difficult to take up living again! I do wish we could have learned what was going on in the family's life. Then again, it would probably have been even more difficult to read those details.
3. Is the chronology incorrect? Wasn't the wedding at Cana where Jesus performed his first miracle?
That's what I thought, too! I really didn't like that my understanding of that part of the gospel was thrown out of sync.
4. Why do you think Mary never names Jesus in this story?
Could it have been because she was still in such agony from his death, and that she missed him so terribly? She seemed to want to avoid painful thoughts, IMHO.
5. The last sentence on page 56 sums up Mary's attitude for me. There's no joy, no connection to God, little love. I find this disturbing; do you?
Absolutely. Would Mary have been chosen to be the mother of Jesus had she had such little faith and courage? I think not. The Mary in this book doesn't have what it takes to be the mother of God.
She's not polite to her 'guests' (were they Matthew and Luke?)She seems to like certain people, but I can't quite read any love in her words or actions. And worshiping false gods? Nope.
6. In your opinion was this book worthy of being on this year's Man Booker short list?
Is this 'the best novel in the opinion of the judges' ? Not as far as I'm concerned. It was an interesting novel, and succeeded in getting me absorbed in the story, but it didn't take me away to another place, which is something I look for in great books!
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Jasmine, little cat with a big heart.
Posts: 18017 | From: 'Twixt the 'Glades and the Gulf | Registered: Aug 2001
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
1. How does this Mary differ from your own perception of her?
Not much. It is interesting to speculate what she was like when she got old.
2. I was moved by this re telling of the raising of Lazarus. What are your thoughts?
I think the retelling is a rather likely conclusion to his life. The Bible never said that he lived a long life in good health.
3. Is the chronology incorrect? Wasn't the wedding at Cana where Jesus performed his first miracle?
I think so. The chronology does sound a bit skewed.
4. Why do you think Mary never names Jesus in this story?
I think that is because we all know that Jesus was her son and it is unnecessary to name him.
5. The last sentence on page 56 sums up Mary's attitude for me. There's no joy, no connection to God, little love. I find this disturbing; do you?
Mary notes the pain He has from the crown of thorns, but does nothing to ameliorate it. She does seem a bit cold.
6. In your opinion was this book worthy of being on this year's Man Booker short list?
I think that it should be on the short list: it has a complex story told well in a very short book.
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
I must confess that I skim read this, rather than giving it my full attention. I think from page one I could see that this wasn't really my type of book.I liked the fact that Mary was a tough woman, as I've always felt she must have been, but I feel she would have been more generous than this portrayal of her.
I thought the rasing of Lazarus was the best bit, and rather convincingly done. The Wedding at Cana might have been out of chronology, but was again a convincing scene. I assumed the two men visting her were Paul and Peter, but I wasn't involved enough in the story to really tease out who they were.
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
Posts: 2035 | From: London | Registered: Jan 2007
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
You did not manage to even read 81 pages?! Could you really not spare three hours? Just asking.... You missed a lot.
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
Posts: 30517 | From: White Hart Lane | Registered: Oct 2002
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Sometimes a book just doesn't grab you. I doubt any author writes expecting everyone to be fully engrossed with their story. That being said, it's a good sign for a book that even a skim read through allows someone to identify a few points that stand out as positive.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
I found it a really dense read, the language was so intense that I couldn't read it all at once but had to take breaks. I suspect it's the use of language that got it nominated for the Man Booker prize ~ and the take on the Biblical stories.
The retelling of Lazarus did put that story in a very different light, and the view you got of the politics at the time gave a very different slant to the Biblical accounts. The placement of the miracle of water into wine didn't bother me as the gospels don't have a consistent order to the stories. Holy Week stories come from different places, for example, and the water into wine is only in John which is not a synoptic anyway.
I read the companions as John the Evangelist who wrote a gospel but is supposed to be Mary's companion at the cross, and wondered about Luke. (Victorian rood screens often depict the cross flanked by John and Mary, and occasionally you'll also see Mary Magdalene at the foot of the cross too. )
I am not sure about the character of Mary. I am not sure what she was like because the gospels were all written with political viewpoints so her character is not necessarily as shown, so I'm not sure she was as we envisage.
Interesting book~ thank you for suggesting it.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Tree Bee
Ship's tiller girl
# 4033
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Posted
The first time I read this I found it hard to get into as it comes from such an unusual perspective.
The second read was much quicker, finished in a day, so I enjoyed it more.
It's interesting to see that you feel the same as I do in the main, that this Mary is so alien from the Mary we think we know. Part of me thinks she couldn't have been like this, but another part of me can see that her biblical image could just as well have been a fiction.
Although I find the book well written, so that's why it was up for the prize, the subject is an irritation to me. I guess I would rather imagine Mary as obedient and full of faith.
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"Any fool can make something complicated. It takes a genius to make it simple."
— Woody Guthrie
http://saysaysay54.wordpress.com
Posts: 5257 | From: me to you. | Registered: Feb 2003
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chive
Ship's nude
# 208
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Posted
I was horribly disappointed by this book. I love Colm Toibin's other books and I was really looking forward to reading it.
I think the problem was I just didn't find the character of Mary believable, she came over as a nasty, bitter sweetie (to use a Scottishism) which is just so wrong in so many ways.
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'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost
Posts: 3542 | From: the cupboard under the stairs | Registered: May 2001
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