Thread: Ale, Ale, the Gang's All Here: A Refreshing Beverage Thread Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.
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Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on
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I thought it might be fun to hear about our respective adventures with beer, cider, mead and the like.
We went on a "daycation" today to a little resort town on the Lake Michigan coast with a new microbrewery specializing in Belgian-style ales. (Stormcloud Brewery in Frankfort, MI, if you're interested.)
I'm generally not a fan of fruity/novelty ales...but I loved Stormcloud's Cherry Bourbon Ale, which uses local cherries and which is aged in old bourbon barrels from a local distillery. It was very smooth going down, no confusion of flavors, and it was a beautiful color. It also packed a bit of a punch (I think 9.5 percent alcohol content).
The area has spawned about a half-dozen new microbreweries in the last couple of years, which in turn has created a mini-boom in growing hops; and in one case, one ambitious new brewing company is working to create a field-to-glass outfit where it grows most of the ingredients for its beers.
We recently tasted a hard cider that we really enjoyed -- I'm not much of a dry cider fan, but I'm learning to like the sweeter ones -- this was an apple-pear cider from Blackstar Farms; it's not listed on their website, so perhaps it's just an experiment that they sold to the brewpub where we tried it. Anyway, it was crisp and fresh, dry but not overly so, with just a hint of natural carbonation...like a fun sparkling wine.
So...what interesting beverages have you tried lately?
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on
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I actually had a drink on Tuesday. I was at a local social group for typographers (and others) and had a nice glass of Organic Norman Cider. I was tempted by the flight of local Ryes, but passed since I was driving.
The local really good beer pub has some Belgian style Cherry flavored beer, but I think it's from Colorado. I've had another Cherry flavored beer while in Oregon. They tend to grow sweet cherries out here rather than sour cherries which you get in Michigan.
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on
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Speaking of cider, on the recommendation of the young man in the local independent wine merchants, where I've bought many a good thing, I bought a bottle of an award-winning cider to try.
All I can say is, I'm going to have to keep it for cooking. I've never tried the medieval verjuice, the sour fruit juice that's called for in many recipes, but this will do very nicely for that or where a touch of fancy vinegar is needed.
[ 19. January 2014, 08:20: Message edited by: Ariel ]
Posted by balaam (# 4543) on
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This would be a good idea if it were a Beerbulance.
Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on
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We were at a nice farm-to-table restaurant in Nashville a few months back, and they had some lovely but very dry ciders from Virginia on the drink list. They paired nicely with the chicken and dumplings that I had for dinner.
I can see craft cider making a comeback in the next few years. The sweet stuff they sell as a beer alternative is usually not my cup of tea, but I can see people getting into re-planting cider apple trees and producing good balanced dry cider. (I have a fantasy of putting in some bittersweet and bittercrisp apple trees in the ground between my back fence and the alley, to facilitate my own cider making. It will probably remain a fantasy, but one can always dream.)
Posted by cattyish (# 7829) on
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I like a Red Kite ale but I'd quite like to try Tactical Nuclear Penguin just once.
Cattyish, off to search for booze.
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
We were at a nice farm-to-table restaurant in Nashville a few months back, and they had some lovely but very dry ciders from Virginia on the drink list. They paired nicely with the chicken and dumplings that I had for dinner.
I can see craft cider making a comeback in the next few years. The sweet stuff they sell as a beer alternative is usually not my cup of tea, but I can see people getting into re-planting cider apple trees and producing good balanced dry cider. (I have a fantasy of putting in some bittersweet and bittercrisp apple trees in the ground between my back fence and the alley, to facilitate my own cider making. It will probably remain a fantasy, but one can always dream.)
It's been happening for in Washington state.
Hard cider can even be found on a high end restaurant menu and bars are carrying more then the cheap British Bands. Still a way to go, some cider makers are trying the new popular earing apple Honeycrisp for cider and about all that can be said for it is that it's better than delicious apples. However the use of real cider apples including bitters and sharps continues to grow.
Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on
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quote:
Originally posted by cattyish:
I like a Red Kite ale.
Oh yes, we tried that in Skye last year, very drinkable.
We're just finishing off a home brewed Festival Ale at the moment, Old Suffolk I think. I wasn't so sure about this as my previous beers have been all malt ones and this had sugar in the brew but it was okay. Not a touch on the Woodforde's Wherry all malt I brewed though. We should have some home brewed Framboos to drink as well but MIL has borrowed it.
Next week I'm going to make a batch of St Peter's Golden Ale. I got my husband a Black Sheep kit to make from scratch so that'll be our next project afterwards.
Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on
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Re cider apples: Last year I tried a flight of ciders that included a dry one utilizing apples from a local farm that specializes in heirloom varieties...they grow over 200 (!) different apples. Anyway, the actual mixture used in this cider is some proprietary secret, but it was very interesting; nice depth of flavor. (The cidery in question, Tandem Ciders, is pretty fun; one of their more popular brews is called Smackintosh, made with -- well, you know; and they offer spiced pub eggs as a palate cleanser. They're located along a scenic bicycle trail, hence the name, but I always imagine bikers stopping for a drink, overindulging, then struggling to maintain their balance on the next leg of the journey.)
Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by cattyish:
[qb] I wasn't so sure about this as my previous beers have been all malt ones and this had sugar in the brew but it was okay.
The Trappists add sugar to their beers and they seem to do OK. It has its place.
Posted by Pre-cambrian (# 2055) on
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As a matter of interest, what are the American "Belgian-style" cherry beers like? I ask because the genuine Belgian ones are sour, not so much because they use sour cherries, but because they take Lambic or Gueuze as the base. They are both distinctive Belgian brewing techniques that produce sour tasting beers, but I'm not aware they are manufactured outside Belgium.
I go to Brussels frequently for work. Some Gueuzes seem to be sweetened a bit, but there is nothing like a Gueuze Cantillon or Oude Gueuze Boon (both without fruit) to wake you up after a day's meeting with the European Commission!
Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on
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Sour and wild beers are very hot right now here in the States, so it very well may have been sour. You can get your hands on the culture to make a Lambic inspired beer, or you can use your own, which is sometimes done by barrel aging in a barrel that already has developed a desirable mix of bacteria and wild yeast.
I checked out the brewery in question's website, to see if the beer was listed, but it was not. They describe themselves as brewing "Belgian Inspired" beers, which may set you a little more at ease. In American brewing competitions, we have categories that essentially try to mimic specific Belgian beers (there is something called "Golden Strong" which is shorthand for "kind of like Duvel"), and then a category called "Belgian specialty" for anything that takes a technique or inspiration from Belgian brewing, and generally embraces the anarchy of Belgian brewing. So we are aware that "Belgian style" is frequently a misnomer, but it can still be useful to tell you what you might be getting.
Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on
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I found the beer at a beer review site. It is sold as a Dubbel, so sort of like Chimay red. I suspect they use a standard dubbel grain bill and hop schedule, ferment with a Trappist strain, and then toss it in the barrels (probably sanitized, so no wild yeast or bacteria) with the sour cherries.
Posted by Bob Two-Owls (# 9680) on
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quote:
Originally posted by cattyish:
...but I'd quite like to try Tactical Nuclear Penguin just once.
It is very nice but I prefer their Tokyo (18.2% stout) for everyday drinking. A couple of years ago I managed to get my hands on one of these beauties. That was a day I barely remember...
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
As a matter of interest, what are the American "Belgian-style" cherry beers like? I ask because the genuine Belgian ones are sour, not so much because they use sour cherries, but because they take Lambic or Gueuze as the base. They are both distinctive Belgian brewing techniques that produce sour tasting beers, but I'm not aware they are manufactured outside Belgium.
I go to Brussels frequently for work. Some Gueuzes seem to be sweetened a bit, but there is nothing like a Gueuze Cantillon or Oude Gueuze Boon (both without fruit) to wake you up after a day's meeting with the European Commission!
God Only Knows. While some are very much like sweet (ha!), delicious Cantillion (my family still reminds me of the time I had them try the Rosé de Gambrinus raspberry one—"that nasty stuff that tasted like rotten urine with the naked lady on the label," they called it), others are sweet amber ales with cherry syrup added. Check your local brewery; half the time "Belgian style," especially for the in vogue "Belgian IPA," just means they use an high ester abby yeast and a tad more malt, rather than the standard Wyeast 1098 English Ale yeast. Like lots of recent American beers, there's no telling until you start drinking.
Sour Americans…yes please. If you see anything by The Bruery, drink it. Yes, even if it's $22 a bottle in a shop, $12 for a half pint in a bar, who cares, it'll be amazing.
Tactical Nuclear Penguin: it's an overblown Scotch ale/barleywine. Not Brewdog's best, but hey, I can say I've had it. If you don't like solvent-y barleywines, you won't much like TNP either. Some people do; they should try it.
People in America are discovering Decent Cider at long last. Naturally, it's horribly expensive, only available at the Most Pretentious Bar In Town (unless you make friends with the staff at another beer bar), and will be imitation Strongbow, at least in its base incarnation. Yes, Strongbow is a decided step up from Woodchuck, whose pear cider reminds me of nothing so much as the smell of urinal cake. I'm also hoping for decent mead, but, so far, I've only found one meadery that doesn't sell it only in Ultrasweet, and they always blend with apples. One Day, I'll get my honeywine. One Day.
As for right now, it's frikkin' cold, so I'm sipping a very small amount of hot August sunshine in a glass—homemade Datil chile vodka. Warms you up from the inside out, that one—and not because of the hooch...
Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on
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The very best I've known in a long time of drinking, perfect for refreshment after mowing your grandmother's lawn and such things, has been Two Dogs Lemonade. About as alcoholic as a beer, much sharper and with good depth of flavour. The label told the tale of an epic incident with two dogs in a dusty and dry street on a hot summer afternoon. Not a plug, Dear Hosts, as alas it has gone from the market.
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on
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quote:
Originally posted by cattyish:
I'd quite like to try Tactical Nuclear Penguin .
I gather once is all you'd want. This was the opinion of a couple of the brewers at Traquair, who felt it was professionally incumbent on them. They thought it was revolting.
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
As a matter of interest, what are the American "Belgian-style" cherry beers like? I ask because the genuine Belgian ones are sour, not so much because they use sour cherries, but because they take Lambic or Gueuze as the base. They are both distinctive Belgian brewing techniques that produce sour tasting beers, but I'm not aware they are manufactured outside Belgium.
I go to Brussels frequently for work. Some Gueuzes seem to be sweetened a bit, but there is nothing like a Gueuze Cantillon or Oude Gueuze Boon (both without fruit) to wake you up after a day's meeting with the European Commission!
My favorite local bar which carries a wide variety on tap and in bottles. A number of the Belgian style beers come from a couple of breweries I think in Colorado, where they apprenticed under a Belgian Brew master.
I don't know much about Belgians, although there are enough that the bar has a day with a special price on Belgians. The ones I steer to in my occasional forays are sour based.
Posted by balaam (# 4543) on
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Sparkling lambic cherry beer is very nice, at a cost. But t this time of year a hot cherry beer would probably be better. I know there is a Cnadian one, but have forgotten what it is called.
Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on
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I had a pint or two of Fat Tire ale last night when I walked to a restaurant in our neighbourhood. It originally was only available in Northern California and I first had it when I spent part of the summer with a relative in Walnut Creek. It is now available throughout the west coast and tastes quite good when it is on tap. Anyone else ever have it?
Posted by Spike (# 36) on
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I remember Fat Tire from when I was working in Dallas some years ago. Well, when I say I remember it, I have a vague recollection of staggering out of the bar and falling over. Strong stuff!
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on
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Flat Tire's pretty much standard everywhere now; basic American amber, a revelation when it came out, but nowadays a bit passé. Good for everyday use, but if you're like me (i.e., have only been able to legally drink in this century) and have always thought of good beer being common in the States, a bit hard to see what all the fuss is about.
And Spike, what else were you drinking? If by "strong stuff" you mean "about standard 5%, same as Budweiser" then yes, I guess it's strong.
Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on
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According to a study, NASCAR fanatics will actually drink beer-flavoured water when there is no real beer.
Mea culpa: I was the Budweiser man at a race a few years ago. It was grueling work going up and down stairs plus keeping accounts but I made a day's pay in three hours. When I ran out of regular Budweiser, I found that the drunken sods would actually buy cans of Bud Light before sales ceased near the end of the race!
Me, I stick to Guinness, 'half and halfs' i.e. black and tans in England. Blacksmiths are Guinness and Smithwicks: I enjoyed one this afternoon having been at a loose end following work. These are good plus several local microbrewed porters at neighbourhood pubs.
Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on
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I made the study!
Posted by balaam (# 4543) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
According to a study, NASCAR fanatics will actually drink beer-flavoured water when there is no real beer.
They drink Fosters?
Posted by The5thMary (# 12953) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
I actually had a drink on Tuesday. I was at a local social group for typographers (and others) and had a nice glass of Organic Norman Cider. I was tempted by the flight of local Ryes, but passed since I was driving.
The local really good beer pub has some Belgian style Cherry flavored beer, but I think it's from Colorado. I've had another Cherry flavored beer while in Oregon. They tend to grow sweet cherries out here rather than sour cherries which you get in Michigan.
Have you ever tried "Wild Blue"? It's a beer with blueberry juice and it sounds maybe a bit dodgy but it's lovely. I am not a fan of Miller/Michelobe/Rolling Rock/etc. but smaller craft beers and micro breweries I dig. When I lived in Seattle I had some lovely ciders--pear and apple, very good, not too sweet.
Posted by The5thMary (# 12953) on
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quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
According to a study, NASCAR fanatics will actually drink beer-flavoured water when there is no real beer.
They drink Fosters?
Ha ha ho ho... or Corona?!
Blechhh, Corona! Tastes like I imagine cat piss would taste.
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on
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quote:
Originally posted by The5thMary:
Have you ever tried "Wild Blue"? It's a beer with blueberry juice and it sounds maybe a bit dodgy but it's lovely. I am not a fan of Miller/Michelob/Rolling Rock/etc. but smaller craft beers and micro breweries I dig. When I lived in Seattle I had some lovely ciders--pear and apple, very good, not too sweet.
Ah Wild Blue, craft brewed by the world's largest brewing conglomerate, makers of Michelob and Rolling Rock, piggybacking off of a well-known brewery that's actually honest about who makes their stuff.
See also Blue Moon, Shock Top, half a dozen other brews that are made to look like small, independent breweries, but are 100% A-B InBev/SABMillerCoors. This, of course, excepts other breweries that started off small and local and got bought, though still retaining some degree of individual control, like Goose Island, Red Hook, and Kona.
Posted by The5thMary (# 12953) on
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Whoops! I sit corrected! Okay, so I erred. But still, Wild Blue is gooooooooood!
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
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Please ... don't get me started on beer. I'll be here all night.
There'd be little point in describing some of the local brews I drink as you can't find them in other parts of the UK let alone in the USA or Canada, Australia etc.
I've enjoyed some American beers in bottled form. Anchor Steam Beer and such like. I enjoyed some microbrewed beer in New York but I forget the name and it wasn't much like British bitter - more like German or Dutch beer, I thought. Tasty though.
I hear, though, that microbrewed US beer doesn't tend to go for the cask-conditioned approach favoured here in the UK - ie. a secondary fermentation in the barrel.
In which case, is it 'keg'?
British readers will understand the difference.
US style Pale Ales have been popular with microbrewers here in the UK for some time now and I enjoy those in the summer. In the winter I tend to go for bitter or for mild, porter and stout.
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I hear, though, that microbrewed US beer doesn't tend to go for the cask-conditioned approach favoured here in the UK - ie. a secondary fermentation in the barrel.
In which case, is it 'keg'?
British readers will understand the difference.
As will Americans, at least those who are willing to pay the extra premium to find the special beer bar in a large city and find the one beer on cask, which, of course, will cost more than the keg variant. It's not common at all, and, usually, they add some extra hops to the firkin to help entice you to pay $7-9 per glass. Kegging is pretty much universal, although bottle conditioning is extremely common, more so than in the UK.
Remember: British beer is served warm and flat. While most craft breweries will adjust the carbonation on their beers down from American premium lager standards and good beer bars aren't going to serve their good beers ice cold anymore (there's one especially twee bar in DC that advertises the exact temperature they serve your beer at, or which fridge it came out of—there's a 2º F difference between each, after five minutes in the glass, it doesn't matter, you pretentious asshole, so long as you're not serving it just above freezing), the stereotype has influenced how Americans think of beer.
Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I hear, though, that microbrewed US beer doesn't tend to go for the cask-conditioned approach favoured here in the UK - ie. a secondary fermentation in the barrel.
You find it at breweries where they do British style beers. There is a place that opened up a little over a year ago, which is owned by a guy who moved here from Fulham, and who learned to brew because he missed English style beers. They have four beers on cask at any time, and will sometimes dry hop the same beer in two different casks with different hops in each cask, so you can learn the flavor of each hop. They usually have at least one beer that hovers a little above 3%, which is really nice on a hot day when you want to drink a few.
But the nice thing about beer in the States is the variety- we have English inspired breweries, German inspired breweries, Belgian inspired breweries, and places that cater to people who like a nice grapefruity hop forward American ale.
Anchor Steam is one of my favorites from the bottle. It is one of the few styles that is uniquely American, as opposed to other American styles, which are usually bigger, hoppier, less yeasty or malty versions of English ales. It is a lager, but it is a special lager yeast that remains somewhat clean in the low 60s. That is key if you don't have cold caves like they do in Germany or refrigeration like we do now; originally, they just let the wort cool to the temperature of the San Francisco fog, and pitched the yeast. Anchor was one of the pioneers of the American micro-brew scene, and their Liberty (all cascade hopped pale ale) and Porter are both vary tasty.
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
Remember: British beer is served warm and flat.
I speak only for Scottish pubs - but 'warm' only in the sense of not having actual ice crystal floating in it. And 'flat'? You expect beer to fizz? I would favour the term 'still'.
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
Remember: British beer is served warm and flat.
I speak only for Scottish pubs - but 'warm' only in the sense of not having actual ice crystal floating in it. And 'flat'? You expect beer to fizz? I would favour the term 'still'.
And, like I said, stereotype.
Posted by jbohn (# 8753) on
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quote:
Originally posted by The5thMary:
Whoops! I sit corrected! Okay, so I erred. But still, Wild Blue is gooooooooood!
Yes, but what is it good for? ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
If I wanted to have a blueberry muffin, I'd do so.
Give me a good stout or porter, thanks. Old Rasputin imperial stout is quite nice. Fulton's "Worthy Adversary" is even better, but I'm not sure how widely they distribute.
[ 29. January 2014, 19:51: Message edited by: jbohn ]
Posted by The5thMary (# 12953) on
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jbohn: Well, some of us are... "delicate". We want to be part of the in crowd and drink what the cool people are drinking but we have to be eased into the stronger stuff. So, we congratulate ourselves for being hip and trendy as we raise our bottles of Wild Blue. Sure, the others around us snicker behind their hands and make disparaging remarks about us "lightweights" when we get up to use the toilet. Still, give us some credit for trying something other than a staid, boring bottle of Miller Lite.
Posted by jbohn (# 8753) on
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quote:
Originally posted by The5thMary:
jbohn: Well, some of us are... "delicate". We want to be part of the in crowd and drink what the cool people are drinking but we have to be eased into the stronger stuff. So, we congratulate ourselves for being hip and trendy as we raise our bottles of Wild Blue. Sure, the others around us snicker behind their hands and make disparaging remarks about us "lightweights" when we get up to use the toilet. Still, give us some credit for trying something other than a staid, boring bottle of Miller Lite.
No offense intended. I'm a fan of all sorts of beers, really - just not that one. (For what it's worth, I concur on the Miller Lite.)
I really didn't get into different beer styles until I started brewing; after that, a whole world of new possibilities opened itself to me.
Posted by Spike (# 36) on
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We do not drink warm beer. We drink it at cellar temperature, which if it's a decent cellar is pretty cold. It's just we prefer not to drink a nice lolly.
That said, any beer that needs to be served at ice temperature probably isn't worth drinking
Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on
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Every beer has its ideal serving temperature and carbonation level. A bone dry Belgian served with low carbonation is going to taste lifeless, and a low alcohol British beer served with high carbonation is going to seem thin. Chilling bitter is going to hide all of the flavor, and serving American adjunct lager at cellar temperature is going to hide the crispness which is the one redeeming quality of adjunct lager, in my personal view. I leave it at that.
Posted by jedijudy (# 333) on
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Tonight would be perfect for a Refreshing Beverage, cider in my case. Alas. The antibiotics say 'no'. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
My nephew has been experimenting with brewing interesting beers. He offered me and my father some samples when he was here last. I'm not a beer drinker, but I try to be a good auntie!
It was a bonding moment or three.
Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on
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I read somewhere - that well known excuse - that the reason why most mass produced north American beer is drunk chilled is to suppress the putrid aroma; highly necessary in many cases. Likewise, they usually drink straight from the bottle to avoid having to inhale it, which also makes sense.
Having unloaded my standard rant, there really is very good beer to be had here and it's getting more common. God moved the blessed owner of the Grand River Brewing Co to set up business in these parts, and I haven't bought mass produced beer since. His Plowman's Ale, despite the spelling, is as fine a bitter as I could dream of, and I have good reason to believe in its efficacy as an adjunct cancer treatment - the outcome can't possibly be coincidence.
Traditional cider is very hard to find here, and I really haven't drunk any since a small bunch of engineering students got badly wasted a couple of times when the Kirkgate Bar in Aberdeen brought in an anonymous keg of the very finest. But that was far back in another century, and the memory may be shaky.
Posted by nickel (# 8363) on
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Dear Husband is into beers, so I've tagged along and enjoyed muchly. Here in Virginia, in summer I drink beer from the refrigerator -- cool and refreshing. This winter I've found there's no reason to put it in the fridge at all. 60-ish degrees from the pantry is fine (as I sit here in tshirt, long sleeve tshirt, fleece pullover, fleece leggings, thick socks, wooly slippers, and a nice warm laptop on my lap, as it were. My "Bridge Builder" from Parkway Brewery (extremely local to my dear in-law's) says it is "An easy drinking Belgian Style Ale ... with a Wheat Malt Backbone Tempered with hints of Cove, Banana and Pear". Just slightly sour. Yes, that'll do.
That's one of the unexpected and lovely developments of the past decade or so throughout the US -- the rise of local breweries and brew pubs.
Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
I read somewhere - that well known excuse - that the reason why most mass produced north American beer is drunk chilled is to suppress the putrid aroma; highly necessary in many cases. Likewise, they usually drink straight from the bottle to avoid having to inhale it, which also makes sense.
Which is a . . . spirited way of saying that light lagers are brewed to be drunk cold. You wouldn't serve sparking wine at cellar temperature, would you? The brewer goes to great difficulty to make something that tastes consistently neutral at a particular temperature,(which is really hard to do- your local brewery would kill to get to the level of consistency that Budweiser does), why mess it up and serve it at the wrong temperature?
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
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Yes, you are right Og, King of Bashan. Different styles of beer need different temperatures.
It isn't true that British beer is warm and flat. If kept at the right temperature and served correctly it shouldn't be either.
Some stouts and winter ales are 'warm' and no British ale worthy of the name is ice-cold.
I agree that lager should have a bit of a chill on it to bring out the crispness. I've had some Sam Adams and some Brooklyn lager and thought they were ok - but I'm not a big lager fan in general.
I quite like German pils and proper Czech pilsner but I loathe British lagers with a passion ... although I'm told there are some decent ones around brewed by some of the smaller breweries.
In recent years the British breweries have been producing 'Gold' ales and 'Blond' beers which are real ales - ie. cask-conditioned - and light, straw-coloured and hoppy. They've been trying to beat lager at its own game.
I like some of these - Beartown Kodiak Gold, Inferno ... but only in the summer.
I'm rather partial to the browny-copper toffee coloured premium bitter - something like Bwtty Bach from the Wye Valley brewery in Herefordshire, or the Kentish ales from Shepherd Neame - as well as the more effervescent northern ales.
As a general rule of thumb, Welsh ales are maltier than English ones and Scottish ones are softer and sweeter. There's a bit of a beer revolution going on in Scotland at the moment, which is good to see.
Your classic English bitter ale has a pleasing hop/malt balance.
There are subtle nuances and regional differences. Milds are popular in the Midlands, for instance.
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
I read somewhere - that well known excuse - that the reason why most mass produced north American beer is drunk chilled is to suppress the putrid aroma; highly necessary in many cases. Likewise, they usually drink straight from the bottle to avoid having to inhale it, which also makes sense.
Which is a . . . spirited way of saying that light lagers are brewed to be drunk cold. You wouldn't serve sparking wine at cellar temperature, would you? The brewer goes to great difficulty to make something that tastes consistently neutral at a particular temperature,(which is really hard to do- your local brewery would kill to get to the level of consistency that Budweiser does), why mess it up and serve it at the wrong temperature?
Exactly. The best brewers in the world are those who make Miller/Coors/Bud Light. You have to produce a beer that is exactly the same as the one before it, no variation, in a large batch that you can't micromanage, with no overhopping or heavy malting to hide behind—every single flavor you put into your beer will be noticed. Any faults will show up, any errors will make it into the final beer. It's not that it has a putrid aroma (well, unless you leave it in the sun or let it sit too long, but any beer will do that), it's that it has no aroma if it's done right; American light and premium lagers are meant to be crisp and refreshing, without any body to fill you up as you drink a six pack during a game. Sure, you hear bad things about every nation's beer—Corona gets its lime to keep the flies away, the English wouldn't know what good beer was if you served it to them, Canadians don't care how their beer tastes so long as it gets them through the winter—but very little of it is true.
Now, would someone pass me the Maudite?
Posted by Spike (# 36) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
your local brewery would kill to get to the level of consistency that Budweiser does
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Posted by Spike (# 36) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
The best brewers in the world are those who make Miller/Coors/Bud Light. You have to produce a beer that is exactly the same as the one before it, no variation, in a large batch that you can't micromanage, with no overhopping or heavy malting to hide behind—every single flavor you put into your beer will be noticed.
Absolute rubbish! All it does in encourage blandness. Saying that the likes of Miller/Coors/Bud are the best brewers in the world is like saying McDonalds are the best chefs in the world.
Posted by jbohn (# 8753) on
:
There's a kernel of truth in Ariston's statement. A light lager is difficult to do well, for all the reasons he mentions - no heavy maltiness or hoppiness to hide behind.
That said, Bud/Miller/Coors/etc. have got consistency down - but it's consistently blah.
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
The best brewers in the world are those who make Miller/Coors/Bud Light. You have to produce a beer that is exactly the same as the one before it, no variation, in a large batch that you can't micromanage, with no overhopping or heavy malting to hide behind—every single flavor you put into your beer will be noticed.
Absolute rubbish! All it does in encourage blandness. Saying that the likes of Miller/Coors/Bud are the best brewers in the world is like saying McDonalds are the best chefs in the world.
And do you know how many overhopped monstrosities you see here, simply because new brewers can't control off-flavors, nor get their beer to taste exactly the same every time? Sure, call the art of drawing perfectly straight lines uninspired, but there's still a technique to it, one that a lot of others haven't even bothered with. Now, to take a brewer with that level of technique and give them something to work with, then you get brilliance. So many breweries, especially the newer ones, can't put out beer of the same consistent quality or recipe, nor do they understand how to manage a brewery around supply seasonality and availability—so your beer may taste completely different the next time you try it from them substituting a different hop because their supplier ran out, or them failing to control the temperature in the mash tun properly, or just cutting corners in the DMS rest. Sure, it may not be the best recipe, but the skill it takes to make and manage it is impressive.
Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on
:
This is a very lengthy article from the local free weekly about Avery brewing, one of the better respected breweries in the country (and maker of my favorite Brown ale and Wit) talking about why he has spent a lot of money on laboratory work to get his beers as consistent as the big boys. From the first few paragraphs:
quote:
"Making beer is easy. But making great beer and making it consistently is tough," Adam says. "But that is why I am in this. That is the only reason. I want to try to attain perfection, or as near to perfection as we can. It freaks people out when I say this, but we need to be emulating the huge breweries, the big three. You might not think much of their beer from a qualitative standpoint, but with their exactness, they are the best breweries in the world."
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
:
The same argument was used for the introduction of keg-beers with electric and gas dispense systems in the 1960s - that it made for consistency.
It did. Consistent crap.
You have to be a good cellarman to keep draught ale properly. And bottle conditioning is notoriously difficult.
I take the point, though, about US lagers having to have a crisp, clean constituency and not a lot of body behind them - if you're out in the sun in Arizona that's what you are going to need.
I'm sure that level of consistency does take skill to achieve but you won't see me drinking Bud, Coors or Miller anytime soon. I'd rather drink cat's piss.
There are decent US beers out there - of course there are - and the number and variety seems to be increasing. They do seem to over-hop though - they go for hop-bombs at the expense of subtlety.
That said, I've enjoyed the few bottles of Anchor Steam I've had and another Anchor brew too - I've forgotten the name, which was more similar to a British ale but hoppier and fiercer.
Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on
:
That would probably be Liberty, which, along with Sierra Nevada Pale Ale, is considered the origin of today's classic Cascade hopped (which is to say grapefruity) American Pale Ale.
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
This is a very lengthy article from the local free weekly about Avery brewing, one of the better respected breweries in the country (and maker of my favorite Brown ale and Wit)
Those would be Ellie's Brown and White Rascal, no?
There's a very good reason why I knew exactly which beers you meant.
Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
...I've enjoyed the few bottles of Anchor Steam I've had and another Anchor brew too - I've forgotten the name, which was more similar to a British ale but hoppier and fiercer.
I attended Cal Berkeley's architecture school when I was a teenager and remember it fondly as it was brewed right across the bay. Years later, my sister finally married and they bought a house up in the hills: I think I remember it in their fridge. I don't remember the other variety though...
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
That would probably be Liberty, which, along with Sierra Nevada Pale Ale, is considered the origin of today's classic Cascade hopped (which is to say grapefruity) American Pale Ale.
They are now putting out a pretty tasty porter, too.
Anybody tried Speakeasy? Another San Francisco product. I like their Prohibition Ale (a red ale) and their Imperial Stout.
I need y'all's help and input-- when ordering in beer houses, I like to stick to California brews (go local, you know.) What would be a handy print- out cheat sheet of beers I should try?
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
That would probably be Liberty, which, along with Sierra Nevada Pale Ale, is considered the origin of today's classic Cascade hopped (which is to say grapefruity) American Pale Ale.
They are now putting out a pretty tasty porter, too.
Anybody tried Speakeasy? Another San Francisco product. I like their Prohibition Ale (a red ale) and their Imperial Stout.
I need y'all's help and input-- when ordering in beer houses, I like to stick to California brews (go local, you know.) What would be a handy print- out cheat sheet of beers I should try?
"Now?" Anchor Porter's a classic—it's one of the few explicit clone brews in The Joy of Homebrewing, since nothing else quite has that same vinuous flavor. Most of the brewers' forums suggest adding a bit of Belgian aromatic or Special B to the boil to get some raisin and plum, which sounds like quite a good idea to me.
As for that "cheat sheet," well, you're on the opposite coast from me, so you probably see an entirely different selection than I do; I'm going to guess that Dogfish and Magic Hat aren't as common, the less common Sierra Nevadas are, and, of course, the nutjob little tiny breweries aren't going to move beyond one state/district's distribution laws. There's no use recommending Union Old Pro Gose, DC Brau Penn Quarter Porter, Stillwater 420, Coop Native Amber, or Duckrabbit Milk Stout to you if there's no way in Hell any of those are going to make it west of the nearest continental divide. Ditto English shipmates extolling the virtues of Hook Norton on cask, much less Garton Chocolate Frog (especially since I just found out that last brewery apparently went out of business six years ago—well, so much for having more than fond memories of that one!). But, if we're going to compile a list of "Touchstone Beers:"
—ANYTHING by The Bruery, especially if it's sour. Hottenroth is one of the few Berliner Weißen you'll find in the States; deliciously sour and refreshing. Sour in the Rye and Tart of Darkness, while both FRIKKIN' EXPENSIVE, are totally worth it—very bold, complex, and tart beers, with malt and rich flavor enough to support the bracing tartness. Even their non-sour, like Rugbrød rye or their Twelve Days Christmas ales are downright delicious. They're a SoCal brewery, so you'll see them. Yes, I know I rant about them all the time, but there's a reason.
—Those really weird things Dogfish puts out: Sam Calagione, Dogfish Head's brewer, did, in fact, write the book on extreme brewing. Want a beer brewed according to archaeological evidence? They make four a year, though the one where you skip the mash and instead chew the grain to use the enzymes in your spit to convert the starches into sugar (yes, it works) didn't sell so well (yes, they tried). Figure out what the weirdest one they're releasing that year is, and drink it. Also, 60 Minute IPA is basically the definitive "East Coast" American IPA, so if we're assembling an Encyclopedia of Beer, it gets a slot.
—Flying Dog Double Dog: One of the first of what would eventually become known as the "Imperial IPA," or, by those of us who like two-note beers, "oh no, not this again." This one, however, is good—it's like drinking hop juice, rather than hop extract. There's sweetness and malt, something with flavor, so it's "party in your mouth!" rather than "I can't taste anything ever again." Of course, with Flying Dog, half the time it's the name you're ordering—Underdog, In Heat Wheat (one of the few I don't like), Doggie Style, and, of course, the now ubiquitous Belgian IPA Raging Bitch.
—Avery White Rascal: perhaps the best Witbier I've had; nice and citrusy from the coriander, and actually quite drinkable while warm. Everything else from Avery is good too, but the Wit especially.
Okay, there are lots of others, but the problem is I don't know your breweries, I have no clue about the distribution networks of mine (save that half of them suck and I have to play "guess which jurisdiction you distribute in!" if I want their beer—which they hate too), and one or two of my absolute "defines what this style could be" beers are Maryland/Oklahoma/New Mexico only, or foreign, which almost seems like cheating…and could take me all night to list. Which, not to worry, I'll be drawing up that list all night.
[ 01. February 2014, 05:23: Message edited by: Ariston ]
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
. Old Rasputin imperial stout is quite nice. Fulton's "Worthy Adversary" is even better, but I'm not sure how widely they distribute.
Do yourself a favour, when North Coast releases their next barrel aged, anniversary version of Old Rasputin, buy some. AIUI, their distribution is limited. I found a local shop who will order it for me when it comes available. Spendy. All the more for the distance, but worth it.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
and their Imperial Stout.
Try this one, Kelly.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
"Now?" Anchor Porter's a classic—it's one of the few explicit clone brews in The Joy of Homebrewing, since nothing else quite has that same vinuous flavor. Most of the brewers' forums suggest adding a bit of Belgian aromatic or Special B to the boil to get some raisin and plum, which sounds like quite a good idea to me.
Now as opposed to "since we became a state." ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I've only seen it on the shelves locally for the last five-six years or so. And even then only in frou-frou delicatessens.
The local BevMo has a breathtaking array of local microbrews so recommend away.
I have seen a lot of Dogfish, but haven't tried it yet.. my practice is to look at the label and pick whatever in closest to my zipcode. Therefore, I offer the following recommendations:
Anderson Brewing Company-- Boont Ale and Oatmeal Stout.
Half Moon Bay Brewing co-- Mavericks "Princeton -by-the-sea" IPA
Lagunitas IPA. Lagunitas anything, really.
...and there is a new brewpub down the coast in Gazos Creek called "Highway 1 Brewing Co." but, um, they are still perfecting their brew. I go for the food.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
and their Imperial Stout.
Try this one, Kelly.
I have.
It is SINFUL.
Posted by jbohn (# 8753) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
. Old Rasputin imperial stout is quite nice. Fulton's "Worthy Adversary" is even better, but I'm not sure how widely they distribute.
Do yourself a favour, when North Coast releases their next barrel aged, anniversary version of Old Rasputin, buy some. AIUI, their distribution is limited. I found a local shop who will order it for me when it comes available. Spendy. All the more for the distance, but worth it.
Thanks! Will do.
I think I'm going to have to brew an IS one of these days...
[edited to fix coding cock-up...]
[ 04. February 2014, 13:39: Message edited by: jbohn ]
Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on
:
No "Real Ale" today: I worked a half day in the morning at a venue which had a sushi bar so I had a Kirin for lunch with my sashimi; it was quite good! That said, tomorrow when I go down the pub (and I am blessed with to Irish-owned pubs within walking distance of my house), I shall start with Guinness and progress with a "Blacksmith", then maybe onto a local micro-brewed porter or two. I shall then reverse my steps and walk back home after the blues jam session is over.....
My favourite pub is tucked in behind a petrol station which is itself behind a rather large restaurant. The pub is v. traditional but does not serve food although the pizza guy usually comes round on each of the four nights they have live music!
Apparently, not being able to drink more after lunch since I was driving, I watched a nil-nil draw between SHEFFIELD UNITED and FULHAM and took up cigar-smoking again for only the second time since Dad passed in 2003....
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
. Old Rasputin imperial stout is quite nice. Fulton's "Worthy Adversary" is even better, but I'm not sure how widely they distribute.
Do yourself a favour, when North Coast releases their next barrel aged, anniversary version of Old Rasputin, buy some. AIUI, their distribution is limited. I found a local shop who will order it for me when it comes available. Spendy. All the more for the distance, but worth it.
Thanks! Will do.
I think I'm going to have to brew an IS one of these days...
[edited to fix coding cock-up...]
I contacted North Coast, they released the XVI Anniversary on 1st Feb. you will likely need to do what I do, which us to find someone willing to order it.
Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
I'm going to guess that...Magic Hat (is not) as common....
I've had that, quite good for a 'value' microbrew: one of the Irish-owned pubs a short walk from our house stocks it and retails it for US $3.50 a pint, the equivalent of about £2.25 I would say, but of course it has not travelled to the UK!
I just got off work and am currently enjoying a couple of bottles of Newcastle, aka 'Newkie Brown' which I picked up in a twelve pack for around the equivalent of about £20 at our local Safeway which has an excellent beer and liquor department. I only drank four bottles during the Super Bowl. It is the only beer my lovely bride will drink! The employee in charge knows me well and has a sign by the Lindemann's pinot noir that reads: "K M (that's me!), neighborhood wine critic..." recommends the stuff.
Posted by nickel (# 8363) on
:
There was a brief interlude between this morning's sleet and this evening's beautiful white snowfall, in which dear husband and I went to the store. He bought a bottle of Heineken which I got a taste of before he finished it. Thirty years ago, Heineken was my least favorite beer because it was so skunky -- yuck. But today? quite mild, not skunky at all. Have my tastes changed, or is the quality better? Is it the recipe, or the bottling or shipping that's made a difference?
Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on
:
They still use the green bottle, which is often blamed for skunkieness. But I suspect they have better caps to keep O2 out and better shipping practices, and that your local retailer takes better care of it and, most importantly, sells a lot of it so that it moves off the shelves. A lot of the skunky European beer taste people talk about is apparently the fault of stores having the same six pack out of the refrigerator and on the shelf for six months before it sells.
Posted by Spike (# 36) on
:
I'm confused. The thread title says Ale but we seem to be talking about Heinekan
Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on
:
Enjoyed a lovely case of Modelo Negra over the last 90 minutes...
It is a luscious dark beer, the best in Mexico, similar to a porter.
Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on
:
(My bad:case = six-pack, not 24 bottles!)
Posted by nickel (# 8363) on
:
Thanks Og, no doubt the places I bought beer years ago were not overly concerned about shelf life. Miller and Micheloeb were much more popular than Heineken. My friends and I always ordered pitchers of Micheloeb, with pretzels and mustard and change left over for the jukebox.
Times change for the better. Spike, you can see I did not grow up with access to quality ale. That situation is alot better now thanks to the rise of craft breweries, but I'm afraid I generically think of all of ales as a subset of "beer".
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
:
'Newkie Brown' is pretty yuck ... certainly compared with other, less well known examples of Brown Ale - which is a genre in its own right.
As a style, Brown Ale has tended to fall on hard times recently ...
I don't know whether Samuel Smiths still do their Nut Brown Ale but that's a much better example of the style than Newcastle Brown - but for some reason Newcastle Brown is popular in the USA it would seem.
I'd imagine it's because the texture and consistency is different to that of the more generally available styles in the US.
Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on
:
You can get Sam Smith's nut brown around here.
As for Newcastle's prominence outside of the UK, I suspect it has everything to do with marketing and the fact that it is owned by Heineken International.
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on
:
It may also taste different over here; from reading books on clone brews, it's made up of two components, a mild ale and an old ale. Perhaps the extra time spent in aging allows the old ale extra time to mature? I know this works with Belgian strong and Trappist ales, especially Orval, which generally benefit from a bit of bottle aging. It could also be that, in comparison to the American tendency to overhop everything, a malty brown ale with old ale vinuous notes is a nice something different.
Or perhaps the fact it's the one brown ale universally available explains things just as well. Potato, potato.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
I'm confused. The thread title says Ale but we seem to be talking about Heinekan
Heeheeheehee...
I think Heineken is German for, "It'll do in a pinch."
Hey! Any Pabst fans out there?
(KIDDING.)
Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on
:
When I was a poor college student living in a small town in Tennessee without any other options, Pabst got me by- in fact, we made fun of you for putting on airs if you showed up at the party with Budweiser. We used to joke that Pabst was a gamble; the first can out of the 12 pack let you know if you got a good 12 pack or a bad 12 pack. I don't think it was really that bad. (And I have to admit that when the crowd we had over to watch the super bowl drank all of the good beer and I got sent out for beer for the second half, I came back with Pabst, and it went pretty quickly. Depressed football fans will drink anything.)
Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
It may also taste different over here;
I have heard that you should be careful about ordering Newcastle at bars that have it on tap in the States, as they probably don't have the technology to serve it any other way than extra fizzy and super cold, which is not how it is meant to be served.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
When I was a poor college student living in a small town in Tennessee without any other options, Pabst got me by- in fact, we made fun of you for putting on airs if you showed up at the party with Budweiser. We used to joke that Pabst was a gamble; the first can out of the 12 pack let you know if you got a good 12 pack or a bad 12 pack. I don't think it was really that bad. (And I have to admit that when the crowd we had over to watch the super bowl drank all of the good beer and I got sent out for beer for the second half, I came back with Pabst, and it went pretty quickly. Depressed football fans will drink anything.)
I totally agree- pisswater beer has its uses.
Trader Joe's has a couple excellent PBR substitutes-- higher in alcohol count, too. Their "Name Tag" lager is the most celebrated-- I found it reasonably tasty and with a big kick.
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
It may also taste different over here;
I have heard that you should be careful about ordering Newcastle at bars that have it on tap in the States, as they probably don't have the technology to serve it any other way than extra fizzy and super cold, which is not how it is meant to be served.
The technology is that you turn down the CO2 on the regulator to the keg and adjust the thermostat in the cooler where you're keeping the kegs. A lack of technology isn't the problem—unless you're expecting hand pumps, in which case, the presence of technology is the problem.
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
:
Yes - go for cask and go for handpumps ... everytime ...
Seriously, I am prepared to accept that there are plenty of decent microbrewed US craft beers that aren't cask ...
But why? Why not go for cask? Why use keg and the technology in the first place? It ruined British and Irish beers back in the 1960s ... why bother with this terrible technology?
And, to be fair, most British bottled beer isn't bottle-conditioned either ... that's very hard to do. Some bottle-conditioned beer is very, very variable ...
I'm not sure I've ever seen Newcastle Brown Ale on handpump or on draught in keg form ... I've only ever seen it in bottles over here in the UK.
Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
'Newkie Brown' is pretty yuck ... certainly compared with other, less well known examples of Brown Ale - which is a genre in its own right.....
It's the best available here in grocery stores: I like it.
I wish we could afford to spend a week in Cornwall again, go to good pubs, have a full English breakfast at our ocean-view hotel in Penzance as well as visiting the Cider Farm and attending Catholic mass with a Shipmate but must wait for my wife to find permanent employment as a writer or high school English teacher....
Sadly, we are both supply teachers and rarely travel further than San Diego where I can spend three or four days surfing once or twice a year.
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Yes - go for cask and go for handpumps ... everytime ...
Seriously, I am prepared to accept that there are plenty of decent microbrewed US craft beers that aren't cask ...
But why? Why not go for cask? Why use keg and the technology in the first place? It ruined British and Irish beers back in the 1960s ... why bother with this terrible technology?
Easy. Casks spoil. Much, much shorter shelf life—can't ship things cross-country in unrefrigerated trucks (and no, you can't just refrigerate the truck or train car; some states don't allow refrigerated beer within their borders if it's over a certain low strength). So I'll see a few local beers on cask, usually with something like a handful of extra hops for IPA's or cacao nibs for porters added to the cask, and usually just poured out of the cask, rather than hand pumped—I'm guessing those are hard to find here, and expensive to boot.
The other thing to consider is that cask ale doesn't have the same cultural significance or connotations here it does over there. Draft beer didn't do jack diddly to the American beer industry that Prohibition, postwar tastes (see the disgusting recipe thread for that), and the vodka industrial complex didn't. What's more, not all beers benefit from being served on cask; while some British styles, especially the weaker (under 5%) do, stouts benefit from a stout faucet (rare, but more common than hand pumps here), while Belgian, Continental, and homegrown styles do better on draft, especially when you can get a better handle on the carbonation. Americans tend to be much more experimental in their brewing, and to draw from sources all over the world, even if we tend to base our styles generally on English examples first; chalk it up to our destroying our native brewing tradition, so we have to borrow from everybody else to make a new one. Finally, cask ale is generally seen as kinda pretentious over here, like using British spelling and drinking hot tea—and, to be fair, it is. It's not normally seen, the places that serve it make a big honkin' deal out of it (as well as what hops, etc., they'll be adding to the cask) and will generally charge extra, rather than just serving the damn beer already! It blows people's minds that tea really is something that is culturally equivalent to coffee in Britain (the idea of construction workers drinking builder's tea blows people's minds, since non-iced tea is seen as extremely effete over here), that you'd see British spelling in an ad for, say, groceries, rather than luxury goods, or that cask beer is just "beer," nothing special (well, besides being good beer, which is special in its own way), nothing pretentious, find it in every pub, what's the big deal? American beers are served on draft, and, in many cases, are meant to be served that way; if you develop the beer with that end in mind, of course it'll work out just fine! Serving a barrel-aged Belgian-inspired sour beer, imperial IPA, or Japanese coffee-infused stout as if they were English bitters would be at least as much of a disservice as the converse.
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
:
Ok, that's helpful, Ariston. I can see the points you're making. Back in the day, though, and it probably applied as much to the US in Colonial and immediately post-Colonial days, beer didn't tend to travel - it was brewed for purely local consumption. So a small city like Worcester, for instance had over 40 breweries, each serving one or two pubs.
I hadn't clocked the tea thing, though and this explains some comments I've received on Facebook when I've tried to mollify people after a political argument by offering a cup of tea so we could sit down and converse in a civilised manner ...
Probably pouring petrol (gas) on the flames.
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on
:
You're right on about the pre-Prohibition local breweries; had we not had the Temperance movement, hand pumps would likely be common here. American beer would have likely followed along the developments of things like cream ale and California common beer with regular influence from Irish and German immigration, rather than Imperial IPA, since we'd never have had American light lager to rebel against so forcefully. I know there are some breweries trying to reconstruct some of the earlier styles that were still developing when the Noble Experiment killed them, but culinary archaeology is hard work, especially since we have very few ideas where to look—after the breweries closed, there really wasn't much reason to keep records around; brewers didn't always write down their secret recipes, or, if they did, it was in a way only they could understand; and unless a certain brewery was especially well known in its day, why would you bother trying to chase down its long-forgotten records? Unlike pre-Prohibition cocktails, which were meant to be made by home bartenders, meaning that instructions were written for making them—instructions we can still follow, assuming we can find creme de Yvette and Amer Picon—brewers were professionals working in a competitive industry, and had an incentive to make sure nobody found out exactly how their Special and Delicious Beer was made.
A pity, really, at least in retrospect. Thanks to the backlash against bland beer, it can be hard to find something well-done that won't get you drunk in one glass; whenever a brewery decides they're going to focus on beer for drinking, rather than weaponized hop juice, they make a big deal out of it, because it's rare for someone to do that!
Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on
:
That's interesting, Ariston. This might sound daft of me, but I keep forgetting about Prohibition.
Beer in the UK obviously has a continuity about it but we wouldn't pretend that the cask ale we drink now is the same as it was back in the 18th century etc. It's more related to 19th and early 20th century developments.
There are regional home-brew traditions that undoubtedly stretch back a long way, though and some of the older forms are rather treacly by modern standards.
As I've said upthread, I've not had that many US beers - but someone helpfully identified Liberty for me (I've had that) and I have had Anchor Steam and Sierra Nevada as well as a bottle of Samuel Adams lager - which I noticed, to my bewilderment - had been brewed under licence by Shepherd Neame here in the UK - our oldest extant brewer.
I can't remember the name of the craft beers I consumed in New York but I did enjoy them. There was one particularly ruddy example which was very flavoursome.
On the whole, as you say, I get the impression that the US brewers tend to go in for 'hop-bombs'. I like to have a lot more going on than simply a hop assault.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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I hate, hate hate "hop bombs"
There is a trend around here toward "rye ales," some of which I have enjoyed. Shall investigate names to see if I can remember.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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Ah, there we are-- Sierra Nevada Ruthless Rye is one of the varieties I've tried.
Posted by jbohn (# 8753) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I hate, hate hate "hop bombs"
Nothing wrong with a good IPA once in a while. It's that it's the only damned thing folks were brewing for a bit that was the problem.
Then again, I bought a case of PBR for the Super Bowl (some for consumption, some for cooking the brats in). YMMV. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on
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I have participated in a demonstration that shows that, like cilantro, hops in certain quantities can set certain people's taste buds off. The demo involved everyone putting a strip of paper on their tongs that had been treated with a chemical that naturally occurs in (some?) hops. Some people tasted nothing, some people (like me) tasted a mild unpleasant flavor, and some people looked like they had just taken a shot of dawn dish washing soap. So that may explain part of your personal taste for big American style IPAs. (Like the rest of you, I enjoy a hop bomb from time to time. My favorite beer as of late has been 400 Pound Monkey IPA from Left Hand Brewery, which is supposed to resemble a more restrained English style IPA, with a little more malt in the background and some nice earthy and herbal hop flavors.)
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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quote:
Originally posted by jbohn:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I hate, hate hate "hop bombs"
Nothing wrong with a good IPA once in a while. It's that it's the only damned thing folks were brewing for a bit that was the problem.
Then again, I bought a case of PBR for the Super Bowl (some for consumption, some for cooking the brats in). YMMV.
I think what Gamaliel was talking about, though, was the micro brew trend in the last few years of concocting things called "extra mega hoppiness!" or some shit like that. Never tried one of those I liked.
(I'm looking at you,Lagunitas Hop Stoopid.)
[ 18. February 2014, 18:25: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on
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Lately I have been drinking St Ambroise Oatmeal Stout, brewed in Montréal (McAuslan Brewing) for general winter fortification. It is one of the nastiest ones around. Like burn your breadfast porridge, and instead of throwing it out, ferment the mess. I like it because when the weather speaks to me of -40°C/°F with howling winds, the beer howls back, punches me in the tongue and I feel like a really brave hamster all of a sudden.
Яed Hammer, from Paddockwood Brewery (Saskatoon) is probably one of the hop bombs Kelly abhors. But good with something that sets your mouth on fire, like banana beef curry I just had lunch time leftovers with paired (at work, so beerless) with lapsang souchong tea (painfully smoky and nasty too). The faux Russian label is good too.
Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on
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Olympia beer is more than acceptable if you actually go to the physical brewery in Washington state. At least that's what I remember from when I was young. It was the first beer I tasted as a teenager and in a can, it's sewer water! I wouldn't feed it to a cat and I hate cats....
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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Am currently enjoying an Eel River Raven's Eye IS. Very yummy.
Straight from Fortuna, CA. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Posted by jbohn (# 8753) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I think what Gamaliel was talking about, though, was the micro brew trend in the last few years of concocting things called "extra mega hoppiness!" or some shit like that. Never tried one of those I liked.
(I'm looking at you,Lagunitas Hop Stoopid.)
Well, yeah - that's kind of where I was going as well. Anything can be done to excess, and the "here's a bottle of hop juice" trend is a bit ridiculous, IMNSHO. While I get the idea that they're all trying to push the boundaries, I wish a few would push in some other direction...
(I know, some do - and I'm glad for it. "New"/old ingredients, something other than hops for spice/preservative, etc. There's a lot more to be explored than how many IBUs we can cram in the bottle.)
Posted by quantpole (# 8401) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
So I'll see a few local beers on cask, usually with something like a handful of extra hops for IPA's or cacao nibs for porters added to the cask,
Why?? Why in the US do they seem to treat the cask as a randall? Just accept it as the brewer intended, rather than trying to pep it up with random ingredients added to the cask. I've even heard of people putting cream cupcakes into a cask! (OK, some dry hopping in the cask can be OK, but generally would be done by the brewer if that's what they want...)
The US craft beer revolution has done great things for us in the UK as well, but I really really dislike this having to overdo things so much. The hype that goes around some beers is ridiculous (Hill Farmstead, Heady Topper etc). Have a look at ratebeer or beer advocate and you'd struggle to find one in their top 100 that wasn't an imperial this or barrel aged that.
To me, cask beer is intimately tied in with the British pub. It's being able to have 4 or 5 pints and be fine for work in the morning. It's beer for glugging rather than sipping. I just don't think that culture exists in the states.
Don't get me wrong, I do like strong beers, and the variety we get now is amazing even compared to 3 or 4 years ago. But those tend to be in the bottle at home rather than in the pub.
Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on
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At the brewery where I most commonly see dry hopped casks, it is the brewer adding dry hops to his own brew, so it is being served the way the brewer intended it.
The cool thing about that place, as I may have mentioned, is that they will take one beer and put it into two casks, and treat each cask with a different hop. That way you can do a side by side taste test and see what the difference between an East Kent Golding and a Saaz hop is.
That brewery also specializes in nice low alcohol English style beers. So it isn't all beer that will hit you over the head.
In Germany they had laws about what could go into beer and what couldn't. In England you have traditions of what is Real Ale and what is not. Here, we brew the beer that we like to drink, and if you don't like it, there is probably someone in another part of town brewing it the way you do like it.
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on
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quote:
Originally posted by quantpole:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariston:
So I'll see a few local beers on cask, usually with something like a handful of extra hops for IPA's or cacao nibs for porters added to the cask,
Why?? Why in the US do they seem to treat the cask as a randall? Just accept it as the brewer intended, rather than trying to pep it up with random ingredients added to the cask. I've even heard of people putting cream cupcakes into a cask! (OK, some dry hopping in the cask can be OK, but generally would be done by the brewer if that's what they want...)
Don't get me wrong, I do like strong beers, and the variety we get now is amazing even compared to 3 or 4 years ago. But those tend to be in the bottle at home rather than in the pub.
1. Marketing hype dictates that you add stuff to the cask. Why else would you pay extra for the same old beer?
2. Marketing hype dictates that you ramp up the IBU and alcohol content. Why would you pay extra for something as unquantifiable as subtlety when you can have something NEW and BOLD?
3. Marketing hype dictates that you stay away from something you can drink six of during the game, like your old man did with Natty Boh.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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quote:
Originally posted by quantpole:
I've even heard of people putting cream cupcakes into a cask!
Please understand the difference between what crazy--ass American microbrewers will do to get attention and what discerning Americans actually drink.
Cupcakes? The fuck? You would have to force that shit down my throat with a tube.
Best way to piss me off personally is to offer me something with a tempting base (like a mellow, savory amber) and the jazz it up with freaking jalapeno or something. Gahhh!
ETA and I refuse to go near coffee/ chocolate concoctions. Yuccchh.
[ 21. February 2014, 02:17: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on
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Okay, not all coffee/chocolate concoctions are bad. Coffee porter or chocolate stouts can be delicious. As always, however, it's all in how you incorporate the flavors into the brew. Just as cooks can't get away with letting one or two spices overwhelm their whole recipe, so too should brewers who let the gimmick ruin their beer be held accountable.
By which I don't mean to condemn those who make single hop IPA's or other such beers that show off a certain ingredient, no more than I mean to blame chefs for celebrating a certain something that's in season. However, taking a perfectly good beer and ruining it with the addition of too many hops, cacao nibs, bad coffee, plums, pumpkin pie spice, etc., should be inexcusable.
Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on
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Currently my favourite that is accessible stateside is the Modelo Negra: rather like a Mexican porter and affordable: four and a half pints for less than £6 or about $9.00 US. Unsure of the alcohol content as it is not stated where I can read it. It's a good accompaniment to the surrealistic thriller I am reading: see book club thread here....
Posted by quantpole (# 8401) on
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It's bad enough when the brewer goes overboard with "special" ingredients, but the ones I have heard about are when the bar take it upon themselves to add extras into the cask. Just because you can do something with a cask you can't with a keg does not mean you should.
Or how about this from a recent cask ale festival in the US:
"a massive, 13% ABV, bourbon barrel-aged, coffee/chocolate/honey/oatmeal stout with Trinidad black scorpion peppers and vanilla beans added directly to the cask"
It just seems that they just don't 'get' cask ale in the states. Which is a great shame, because there really are some fantastic keg beers.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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quote:
Originally posted by quantpole:
"a massive, 13% ABV, bourbon barrel-aged, coffee/chocolate/honey/oatmeal stout with Trinidad black scorpion peppers and vanilla beans added directly to the cask"
I want to gouge my eyes out.
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
Currently my favourite that is accessible stateside is the Modelo Negra: rather like a Mexican porter and affordable: four and a half pints for less than £6 or about $9.00 US. Unsure of the alcohol content as it is not stated where I can read it.
5.4 %
[ 21. February 2014, 15:52: Message edited by: Firenze ]
Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on
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One currently popular ale that I just can't find it in my heart (or palate) to like is smoked ale. Ugh. I've tried it in numerous microbreweries, and I can never even finish the tasting glass.
Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
Currently my favourite that is accessible stateside is the Modelo Negra: rather like a Mexican porter and affordable: four and a half pints for less than £6 or about $9.00 US. Unsure of the alcohol content as it is not stated where I can read it.
5.4 %
It'd also be an adjunct Vienna lager rather than anything actually like a porter; real, all-malt Vienna lagers are pretty hard to come by these days, although Great Lakes and Devil's Backbone make decent ones, and, if you can find it, I think the dark version of Bohemia is an adjunct-free Mexican Vienna lager.
[ 21. February 2014, 19:01: Message edited by: Ariston ]
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
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So is it just like store-bought "wheat bread-- exactly the same as white bread but with brown stuff added? Hm.
Lutheranchik-- weirdly enough, I don't have the same revulsion to smoked ale that I do to coffee/ chocolate bastardizations, but I do feel guilty when I am drinking one. Somewhere down there is a beer that is not being allowed to be itself.
![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
Posted by nickel (# 8363) on
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I haven't tried "smoked," but I once tried a "black" and it was horrible. If I understand correctly, the malt is extremely roasted and/or burnt.
On a more enjoyable note, I've had a few "fresh hops" IPA's and they were great -- light and almost floral tasting.
Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on
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After a lovely double shot of Laphroiag 10, I had a passable light ale microbrew from a little college town to the north....
Posted by Eigon (# 4917) on
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Our local wholefood shop is getting more adventurous with bottled beers at the moment. I asked the manager how his "dry month" was going now that the new stock was in, and he grimaced and said "Not very well." But he felt it was his duty to sample the stock. So as well as some small local breweries, there is now beer available from the States, Belgium and Germany. I got some Orval from Belgium, Flying Dog's Underdog Atlantic Lager, Fraoch heather beer from Scotland, and Brooklyn East India Pale Ale, which is quite a wide variety to choose from of an evening.
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
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I tried the Fraoch in Glasgow Youth Hostel over Christmas, enjoyed that one.
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