Ship of Fools: Morning Office Etiquette

Thread: Morning Office Etiquette Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

To visit this thread, use this URL:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=70;t=026829

Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :

There's a new employee at work, on a short-term contract (intitiallY) and he was given the empty desk next to me.

When he comes into the office in the morning, he sits down next to me and says nothing. No "Good Morning" or "Hello." Not one word. I made an effort to say it first a few times, and he reacts very strangely like he finds it awkward to engage in such pleasantries. I am no Miss Manners but I find it rude to sit down next to someone all day and not even greet them. He has no problem in the slightest asking me how to adjust his PC monitor or to look over and ask what I am working on - so I know he can speak!

Am I being too uptight here, or is this guy a bit rude and/or lacking in social graces?

And what should I do about it? I feel uncomfortable sitting next to him all day and not saying a basic greeting, but as mentioned when I initiate it seems to make him uncomfortable.

Posted by Beethoven (# 114) on :

It does seem very odd to me - on the days that I'm in a different office, I still say good morning to my colleague on the front desk as I go past. The idea of not greeting the person I'll sit next to for the whole day is very strange! It suggests a lack of social graces to me - but whether that's through upbringing or nature is anyone's guess.

What to do about it? I suppose that's up to you. You could either continue to greet him, and not worry about whether this discomforts him, or accept that he doesn't want to exchange even the briefest morning pleasantries...

Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on :

Gosh...I thought my colleagues were taciturn but I at least get a "Hello" in the morning, if little else.

I personally find it hard to not go through such rituals and I would probably keeping doing it, out of habit/reaction; but if he seems uncomfortable I think I'd try and stop: as hard as that would be. I'm also the kind of person who'd offer to make a cup of tea/coffee to a new/shy person, in the hope of making them feel they belong, but it seems like he is happy to talk if he needs something/wants to know something. Very odd.

Good luck.

[ 29. January 2014, 10:29: Message edited by: Ian Climacus ]

Posted by Banner Lady (# 10505) on :

And here I was, thinking the op was about when someone else rattles through the Morning Office prayers without stopping to include others present.

My Office problems are obviously a little different to yours. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Oferyas (# 14031) on :

seekingsister - is it possible that your new neighbour has Asperger's Syndrome or something similar, and is unaware of the impact of his lack of social graces? If so, speaking as an Aspie, please cut him a bit of slack - he may be inwardly very stressed in an unfamiliar environment, but an Aspie would give few/unclear outward signals that this is happening.

[ 29. January 2014, 11:09: Message edited by: Oferyas ]

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

I'd continue to say "Good morning": whether or not such commonplace pleasantries make him appear uncomfortable is irrelevant.

There is a difference between shyness and gracelessness - this falls into the latter category.

If he has managed to get so far in life without acquiring even such basic courtesy then one can only wonder at the forebearance of people he has encountered previously; but for you not to greet him as you do others means your tacit (!) approval of his rudeness.

From what you say he seems to think he only needs to speak when he wants something - this would be something we'd find unacceptable in a sulky teenager and is not something that should be allowed to go unchallenged in an adult.

Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :

I was waitng for a friend a few years ago in a high-flying tecnological-science-y government office. It was the end of the day. One person got up from his desk and walked out (ie left for home) without a word and then a woman left saying cheerily "'Night all!" and nobody responded.
I told my friend and she said the whole office were all geniuses with varying degrees of social skills and "you just got used to it".

Posted by Meg the Red (# 11838) on :

I used to work for a (non-Aspie) woman who stated she didn't greet people in the morning because she found it entirely too much trouble. She made exceptions for a couple of her favourite employees, but ignored everyone else. Eventually, she was called on the carpet by the head honcho because her rudeness to staff had spread to members of our volunteer board, who were rightly offended.

OTOH, we have a young computing contractor who spends a few days a month in our office. He's very shy and will not initiate a greeting, but we make sure to acknowledge him when he arrives, and to bring him a share of any goodies people bring into the office. It's taken a few months, but he's starting to trust us. [Smile]

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Do consider both deafness and a touch of autism. I'd add faceblindness, but if you are in your usual chair he would still know who you are ...

Try a wave of the hand, maybe? And if that doesn't work, charitably assume there's a real disability of some sort and go on with your day. No sensible person deliberately snubs coworkers at a new job for no reason.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

seekingsister, you could simply have someone with no smalltalk whatsoever. Maybe he is no good at mornings or is waiting to be introduced.

Our place has plenty of short-term contractors and we've recruited plenty too, and an announcement comes round that Joe Stoat has joined the such-and-such team, make him welcome but without a photo so no one has a clue what he looks like. While everyone is supposed to wear a badge many clip it to their trousers or, deliberately, place the badge upside down in the holder.

And if your man hasn't had many opportunities in the past, he's probably afraid of making a mistake, hence the reticence.

Posted by Desert Daughter (# 13635) on :

maybe he is just an extreme introvert. I am one myself. I do say "good morning" to co-workers because when I was little that's what Desert Mummy told me was the polite thing to do.
And I agree that a minimum of etiquette is necessary in a work environment.

But every time I greet someone I am scared to death that that person might take it as a clue to start a conversation [Eek!]

whereas I just want to get on with my work and/or attend to My Inner World (which as a rule I find more interesting and entertaining than the Outer World...)

So, it's not necessarily rude, just bad manners. Just let them be.

Posted by fabula rasa (# 11436) on :

I have a rather different take on this. I have excellent social skills, but simply can't bear interacting first thing in the morning. I am much more comfortable sliding in quietly and having an hour or so to warm up before having to engage in social niceties. I've struggled with depression since childhood, and difficulties with mornings is a classic symptom--depressives tend to function much better later on in the day.

I try to avoid morning interaction just because I often find it so overwhelming and exhausting.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
He has no problem in the slightest asking me how to adjust his PC monitor or to look over and ask what I am working on - so I know he can speak!

Does he say "please" when he does?

And "thank you" afterwards?

Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Does he say "please" when he does?

And "thank you" afterwards?

I don't think he's said please but probably thank you - at least when he asked for my stapler I think he said thank you.

He doesn't really speak with anyone in the office so I'm sure it's not personal but rather he just lacks manners.

Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
seekingsister, you could simply have someone with no smalltalk whatsoever. Maybe he is no good at mornings or is waiting to be introduced.

I think it's the no smalltalk thing.

When he first joined it was the second day of sitting next to me that I said "Hi my name is ..." He literally just sat down and didn't even say hello or look at me. It was like we were on a bus sat next to each other rather than professional colleagues.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

The advantage of etiquette and conventions is that you don't have to think of what to say. That is a great advantage for us introverts.

If he didn't say "please" it is just bad manners.

I'm introverted. I have great difficulty making conversation at times. I can't remember if I said "Hello" when I worked in an office.

But I am fed up seeing being introverted used on SoF as an excuse for various behaviour.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

You think they said thank you??? I'm sure if they had you would have remembered.

Saying "good morning" isn't smalltalk - its just a simple salutation that most people acquire by the age of, ooh, 10.

This is just boorish. I'd be inclined to treat his requests for office equipment with the same courtesy that he shows to your salutation - with silence. Then if he repeats the request, I'd gently, but firmly, point out that I'm not some office kit lending scheme but a person.

Or just address the air above his head and opine "
Politeness is the policy of princes and the courtesy of kings." - I'm not sure who coined this but he should get the gist...

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

seekingsister:

quote:
When he first joined it was the second day of sitting next to me that I said "Hi my name is ..." He literally just sat down and didn't even say hello or look at me. It was like we were on a bus sat next to each other rather than professional colleagues.

Sounds like bad manners to me, but I'm struggling to understand the distinction Desert Daughter draws between bad manners and rudeness... did you mean 'Don't take it personally if he behaves that way to everyone', DD?

Could be Asperger's, I suppose (IANAP). But as venbede says, a lot of introverts find 'scripted' interactions like saying 'Good morning' comforting. You know what's expected of you.

Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
No sensible person deliberately snubs coworkers at a new job for no reason.

That's the thing that makes it so odd. We had several new people join recently and he is the only one who acts so strangely. The others are quite keen to introduce themselves, ask questions, etc.

It's possible that he sees the short contract as simply a temporary stop and has no interest in staying here long-term, hence his lack of interaction with us.

Posted by Desert Daughter (# 13635) on :

...maybe your co-worker is Finnish ???? [Razz]

Posted by jedijudy (# 333) on :

If he's thinking he'll only be with your company for a short while, that does not excuse him from polite behavior. IMO

I would probably greet him every morning with a smile and say good morning, then get on with my work. Sometimes people take a while to catch on, although you would think it would have happened before now, wouldn't you?

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :

In my days in Terra Cubicula about half of us proceeded silently into our little cages. Most were anglophone. Francophone colleagues always always greeted each other with cheery Ça vas? and Bonjours. Africans normally edged into the cubicle and made a (usually) weather-related observation in greeting, Chinese were silent, south Asians and South Africans would give something out of Bertie Wooster for a greeting (What Ho! Topping, old chap!-- I kid you not-- I do not invent this at all). Parsing it further, I realize that most of the silent folk were anglophone Canadians, particularly Ontarian, but one could always rely on a Maritimer for a moment of chat as they stood there with their paper cup of cold Tim Horton's coffee, with the ice and snow from their coats melting on my carpet.

Newly-minted management trainees were always chipper for a few weeks as they had been told that good managers were friendly with their charges, but as soon as they discovered that managers generally ignored us, they soon fell into line.

Those newly returned from the Camino to Santiago would go about embracing all, enquiring after their blisters in badly-accented Castilian, but usually a quiet visit from Human Resources would set them back into the groove of what was acceptable.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

The fellow is socially awkward. It happens. The suggested responses seem inordinately punitive IMHO. We have no idea why he is so awkward, I doubt it's intentional, and he most certainly is already punished in the myriad ways that social awkwardness disadvantages one. It's not hurting you, I see no reason to pile on by responding to simple requests with silence or any other acts of retribution. I would just continue on with your work with grace.

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

Sure it could all be worse. You could have someone determined to tell you how their weekend went/opinion of their team's performance/doings and opinions of people of whom you know nothing and care less.

I used to have a job which obliged me to start work at least an hour before the rest of the office, and one compensation was not having go interact with anyone first thing.

Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :

quote:
Originally posted by jedijudy:
I would probably greet him every morning with a smile and say good morning, then get on with my work. Sometimes people take a while to catch on, although you would think it would have happened before now, wouldn't you?

Yes I think I'll just make the effort and hope he learns.

And for those wondering if it's a cultural thing, he is English and appears to be in his late 30s. Most everyone else from a variety of backgrounds (British, American, Indian, Caribbean, Dutch) says "good morning" and "good night" at least to those within earshot. Except for the one Australian who loudly shouts "Good morning everyone!! How ya goin!!!"

I had a former boss who was Eastern European and he had a HUGE issue with people not saying good morning, to the point of actually telling someone off for it. He took it as a personal insult if someone sat down near him without saying a greeting.

I've been told that saying goodbye without leaving is variously called the Irish Goodbye or (from a French colleague so grain of salt) the English Goodbye.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

Move everything on his desk into the middle and torch it. Then see if he makes a comment to a burnt hole in the desk.

Seriously, it may be shyness, or a mental health issue, or it may be he knows that he is only there for a short time, something he does a lot of, and doesn't bother to properly associate with the people he is working with - after a few, it may just prove too much and too many people.

I would say keep greeting him - he might respond, or he might not. It is antisocial, but that might not be deliberate rudeness, just carelessness.

And whatever happens, he is only there for a while. You will be free of him soon enough.

Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :

"Good morning, [name]. How are you today?"

He'll either answer or be silent. If the latter:

"Is it that bad? I hope it gets better."

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
"Good morning, [name]. How are you today?"

He'll either answer or be silent. If the latter:

"Is it that bad? I hope it gets better."

strikes me as needlessly snarky. But that's perhaps because I'm hearing my snarky self saying it.

Posted by St. Gwladys (# 14504) on :

Try some "open" questions - how are you finding working here, have you done this sort of work before?

Posted by Thyme (# 12360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Banner Lady:.
And here I was, thinking the op was about when someone else rattles through the Morning Office prayers without stopping to include others present.

My Office problems are obviously a little different to yours.

Something like that was my first thought as well!! I wondered why it wasn't in Eccles. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
And what should I do about it? I feel uncomfortable sitting next to him all day and not saying a basic greeting, but as mentioned when I initiate it seems to make him uncomfortable.

The last sentence is the clincher. You say that greeting him seems to make him uncomfortable (some shy people are quite grateful for a friendly word): it suggests to me that possibly he isn't comfortable with women. How is he with other men, and his own peer group - more relaxed?

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
"Good morning, [name]. How are you today?"

He'll either answer or be silent. If the latter:

"Is it that bad? I hope it gets better."

Oh the old "if you aren't exactly as outgoing and jolly as me then something must be wrong with you" line. I've commented before about how annoying it is when people tell you to smile more. This little quip would get a similar annoyed reaction from me.

But at least he might talk to you for a bit.

Posted by Darllenwr (# 14520) on :

Might I echo Oferyas from upthread? I will have to be careful what I say, as I have no 'official' diagnosis, but my Social Worker wife, who has made a study of ASD conditions tells me that I show many of the signs.

I am probably borderline Aspergers. I am an intuitive Engineer, by which I mean that, without any formal training, I successfully earn a living as a motion control Engineer (among other things). For some of us, our brains are wired in such a fashion that engineering is a natural way through life. What I have observed over years of studying other sufferers / engineers is that social interaction is not a strong point.

I have to remember to have my social head on in the morning or I will behave in much the same way as your colleague. It is not deliberate rudeness or even pig-ignorance. It simply doesn't enter my thinking to greet people - I have to remember to do it quite deliberately.

Put like this, it probably doesn't make a great deal of sense, but it (sort of) reflects my experience of day-to-day life. I am not a great communicator, unless engineering is involved, as I find communication is a significant effort. I imagine that I am seen as a bit of a cold fish - certainly I have few friends.

Cut your colleague a bit of slack - it's possible he is ASD and doesn't yet know it.

Posted by piglet (# 11803) on :

I can't imagine not saying at least "hello" to my colleagues, usually with a brief "how are you?" added for good measure, but I'm fortunate to work with friendly people.

I don't think you should stop saying hello, even if you don't say anything else; surely no matter how shy or graceless he is he'll eventually get used to it and maybe even respond one day.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Look, at this point I'd put good money on it that he's on the autistic spectrum somewhere. That being the case, there's no point in either taking it personally or trying to cure it. It is what it is. He is what he is. Live around his disability, and if you have the charity to spare, try to shut down any snarkiness that erupts among your coworkers over the issue.

It isn't bad manners plain and simple. If it were, he would be behaving like an ass all the time, not just at greetings. For example, he'd certainly not say "thank you," and his body language would be expressing contempt rather than indifference. Trust me, I'm working with one of THOSE right now, o joy! Bad manners (in the sense of deliberate rudeness) can be felt. The fact that you are puzzled rather than simply angry says that something else is going on, and your radar has picked up that fact.

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
...
I've been told that saying goodbye without leaving is variously called the Irish Goodbye or (from a French colleague so grain of salt) the English Goodbye.

It's also known as French Leave [Smile]

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Look, at this point I'd put good money on it that he's on the autistic spectrum somewhere. That being the case, there's no point in either taking it personally or trying to cure it. It is what it is. He is what he is. Live around his disability, and if you have the charity to spare, try to shut down any snarkiness that erupts among your coworkers over the issue.

It isn't bad manners plain and simple. If it were, he would be behaving like an ass all the time, not just at greetings. For example, he'd certainly not say "thank you," and his body language would be expressing contempt rather than indifference. Trust me, I'm working with one of THOSE right now, o joy! Bad manners (in the sense of deliberate rudeness) can be felt. The fact that you are puzzled rather than simply angry says that something else is going on, and your radar has picked up that fact.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

The reason may well be autism, and it may well be charitable to assume so.

The behaviour is still bad manners, whatever the reason. But there are far nastier examples of bad manners around.

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

Would it be worth a conversation?

"Excuse, I want to talk. I can't help noticing that when I say hello in the morning you don't respond. I've come to the conclusion that you aren't being deliberately rude, that it's just how you are. All the same, if it's possible I'd appreciate a hello back."

And then be charitable and listen to what he says.

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :

Lamb Chopped:

quote:
Bad manners (in the sense of deliberate rudeness) can be felt.

OK, now I'm really confused... I have these terms the other way round:

Bad manners = this is how he behaves to everyone, either because his brain is wired differently or because he thinks/has been taught that this is the right way to behave.

Rudeness = someone whose manners are normally impeccable deliberately deciding to break the rules to show contempt for the person they are interacting with.

So when I said 'it sounds like bad manners' I meant more or less the same as you did, Lamb Chopped, even though I used the other word.

Seekingsister, if you do decide to follow mdijon's suggestion of asking him directly why he doesn't reply to your greetings it might be worth commenting that it seems to make him uncomfortable and asking if he'd like you to stop doing it?

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
The reason may well be autism

Of it may not. We are none of us in a position to say, and advising seekingsister to take specific courses of action towards him based on our assumptions is probably not a way to go.

Firenze
Heaven Host

[ 30. January 2014, 11:41: Message edited by: Firenze ]

Posted by kaytee (# 3482) on :

As others have said, it's unlikely he's deliberately being rude.

When I was in my teens, my schoolfriend told me that her parents thought I was a bit rude, because I didn't say hello and goodbye to them. It had honestly never occurred to me that they would even be interested in speaking to me, and on the contrary, I thought I would be bothering them and interrupting whatever they were doing with unnecessary greetings.

I was embarrassed (as was my friend!) but having been made aware, I was then able to make a conscious effort to greet them in future.

Even having learned that much, when I was in my twenties I was still surprised when my colleagues would make small talk, ask me about my weekend plans etc and expect more than a one word answer. It was only during this period that I started to realise that this is how relationships are built. I am sure my mother tried to teach me to be polite, but as my parents were not very sociable themselves I suppose I just didn't absorb this kind of behaviour.

So, although you may think that your colleague is old enough to know better, as others have suggested, there may be reasons why these kinds of things don't come naturally to him.

Part of me thinks it would be worth you mentioning it, as it might help him in other areas of life. Another part of me thinks that might make him even more uncomfortable. But perhaps if you word it carefully so that it doesn't sound too personal it would give him the opportunity to think about it.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
The reason may well be autism
Of it may not. We are none of us in a position to say, and advising seekingsister to take specific courses of action towards him based on our assumptions is probably not a way to go.

Firenze
Heaven Host

I totally agree. I was not advising any course of action.

I don't think he's autistic, just English. And he does respond to SS's greeting. She thinks he finds it awkward, but that's how it comes over to her. Just live and let live.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
There's a new employee at work, on a short-term contract (intitiallY) and he was given the empty desk next to me.

When he comes into the office in the morning, he sits down next to me and says nothing. No "Good Morning" or "Hello." Not one word. I made an effort to say it first a few times, and he reacts very strangely like he finds it awkward to engage in such pleasantries. I am no Miss Manners but I find it rude to sit down next to someone all day and not even greet them. He has no problem in the slightest asking me how to adjust his PC monitor or to look over and ask what I am working on - so I know he can speak!

Am I being too uptight here, or is this guy a bit rude and/or lacking in social graces?

And what should I do about it? I feel uncomfortable sitting next to him all day and not saying a basic greeting, but as mentioned when I initiate it seems to make him uncomfortable.

If it makes him uncomfortable, don't do it. Making someone uncomfortable seems a much worse thing to me than someone not saying a greeting in the morning.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Darllenwr:
Might I echo Oferyas from upthread? I will have to be careful what I say, as I have no 'official' diagnosis, but my Social Worker wife, who has made a study of ASD conditions tells me that I show many of the signs.

I am probably borderline Aspergers. I am an intuitive Engineer, by which I mean that, without any formal training, I successfully earn a living as a motion control Engineer (among other things). For some of us, our brains are wired in such a fashion that engineering is a natural way through life. What I have observed over years of studying other sufferers / engineers is that social interaction is not a strong point.

I have to remember to have my social head on in the morning or I will behave in much the same way as your colleague. It is not deliberate rudeness or even pig-ignorance. It simply doesn't enter my thinking to greet people - I have to remember to do it quite deliberately.

Put like this, it probably doesn't make a great deal of sense, but it (sort of) reflects my experience of day-to-day life. I am not a great communicator, unless engineering is involved, as I find communication is a significant effort. I imagine that I am seen as a bit of a cold fish - certainly I have few friends.

Cut your colleague a bit of slack - it's possible he is ASD and doesn't yet know it.

You sound like me. I was a computer engineer doing fault diagnosis and rectification long before I had any formal IT training. It's quite frustrating; what most of the human race considers obvious has often never occurred to me; what I think obvious everyone else thinks is obscure. Wrong planet.

Posted by Dormouse (# 5954) on :

Personally I would greet him when he arrived with a cheery "Hi" or "hello" but leave it at that. If it was the culture in the office I'd offer to make/fetch him a coffee when I went to get one, but other than that I wouldn't bother him too much - unless I needed to interact for profesional purposes. if he's uncomfortable, it seems mean to push it, but by saying a "hello" that doesn't require an answer (but is open to one) you seem friendly without overbearing.

I think it's been accepted that I don't kiss everyone on my French language school, because I feel uncomfortable doing it...but a cheery "Hi!"/ "Ca va?" etc is fine.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

If the worker was German, or the sort of Prussian I have as relatives, a Good Morning usually generates a scowl and apparently a "what's so good about it" thought. They feel burdened by cheerful morning people like me. Though now my relatives just laugh at me.

The key is that others' behaviour is generated by themselves and often has no connection with interactions or attempted interactions.

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Wrong planet.

I have met a few Zaldan-like people, who are infuriated by courtesy and social niceties. And others who find informality troubling.

[ 30. January 2014, 14:19: Message edited by: no prophet ]

Posted by JoannaP (# 4493) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
There's a new employee at work, on a short-term contract (intitiallY) and he was given the empty desk next to me.

When he comes into the office in the morning, he sits down next to me and says nothing. No "Good Morning" or "Hello." Not one word. I made an effort to say it first a few times, and he reacts very strangely like he finds it awkward to engage in such pleasantries. I am no Miss Manners but I find it rude to sit down next to someone all day and not even greet them. He has no problem in the slightest asking me how to adjust his PC monitor or to look over and ask what I am working on - so I know he can speak!

Am I being too uptight here, or is this guy a bit rude and/or lacking in social graces?

And what should I do about it? I feel uncomfortable sitting next to him all day and not saying a basic greeting, but as mentioned when I initiate it seems to make him uncomfortable.
If it makes him uncomfortable, don't do it. Making someone uncomfortable seems a much worse thing to me than someone not saying a greeting in the morning.

But why should his comfort be privileged over seekingsister's?

I am not the most sociable person but I would also be uncomfortable spending all day sitting next to somebody who did not return a basic greeting. I think mdijon's suggestion is wise, if you can do it, and let him know that he is making you uncomfortable.
Do you know what do your other colleagues think?

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
There's a new employee at work, on a short-term contract (intitiallY) and he was given the empty desk next to me.

When he comes into the office in the morning, he sits down next to me and says nothing. No "Good Morning" or "Hello." Not one word. I made an effort to say it first a few times, and he reacts very strangely like he finds it awkward to engage in such pleasantries. I am no Miss Manners but I find it rude to sit down next to someone all day and not even greet them. He has no problem in the slightest asking me how to adjust his PC monitor or to look over and ask what I am working on - so I know he can speak!

Am I being too uptight here, or is this guy a bit rude and/or lacking in social graces?

And what should I do about it? I feel uncomfortable sitting next to him all day and not saying a basic greeting, but as mentioned when I initiate it seems to make him uncomfortable.
If it makes him uncomfortable, don't do it. Making someone uncomfortable seems a much worse thing to me than someone not saying a greeting in the morning.
But why should his comfort be privileged over seekingsister's?

Human kindness? Christian compassion? Empathy?

Again, we don't have any idea what is going on with this guy, whether the obstacles that are keeping him so aloof are deliberate or involuntary, conscious or unconscious, changeable or unchangeable. What we do know is that this kind of social awkwardness usually comes at a high cost (look at how much heat this thread has generated) so if that social cost hasn't already altered his behavior (if only for utilitarian reasons), chances are your drawing attention to it won't either.

At the very least, I don't see any call to add to the social cost he's already paying by piling on snarky come-backs. A gentle inquiry as has been suggested might be helpful--or it might make him even more self-conscious and uncomfortable. IMHO the advice to proceed cautiously is a compassionate one

Posted by M. (# 3291) on :

To me, the obvious thing seems to be to keep saying 'good morning' every morning and leave it at that.

If saying good morning is just something that doesn't occur to him, you are reminding him.

If it is neurological, then you are beginning to build a framework within which he might start to feel comfortable.

If he is shy, you are maintaining a low level, non pressured friendliness, without demanding further conversation.

If he is just downright rude, then you are, at least, showing him you do not intend your behaviour to be affected by his rudeness.

M.

Posted by Gracious rebel (# 3523) on :

quote:
To me, the obvious thing seems to be to keep saying 'good morning' every morning and leave it at that.

If saying good morning is just something that doesn't occur to him, you are reminding him.

If it is neurological, then you are beginning to build a framework within which he might start to feel comfortable.

If he is shy, you are maintaining a low level, non pressured friendliness, without demanding further conversation.

If he is just downright rude, then you are, at least, showing him you do not intend your behaviour to be affected by his rudeness.

M. Absolutely. [Overused]

Seems the best (and obvious) approach to me. Why risk making the situation worse by confronting him about it?

(edited to provide quote for context, as top of new page)

[ 31. January 2014, 07:49: Message edited by: Gracious rebel ]

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Completely agree with M.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
... I don't think he's autistic, just English. And he does respond to SS's greeting. She thinks he finds it awkward, but that's how it comes over to her. Just live and let live.

No, that isn't normal English behaviour. The normal English convention is that people greet their colleagues when they come into work, and say 'good night' to them when they leave. What they tend not to do, and feel uncomfortable with when someone does it to them, is project themselves into someone else's emotional space. In almost all places of work, there's quite a strong feeling that colleagues should strive to work together harmoniously, and that this is important.

It isn't usual though to go round shaking hands with everyone every morning and evening like they do in French films.

Others may disagree, but my impression is that cubicles, like in Dilbert, aren't all that common or popular in Britain. Managers like to be able to see what people are doing. Teamwork means people expect to engage with what each other is doing and not just themselves. Open Plan normally means exactly that.

Posted by BroJames (# 9636) on :

Someone I know on the autistic spectrum (spotted early) has with difficulty mastered the rules of this kind of social interaction. Occasionally you can almost see him processing "Ah! He has said this, so I must say that." He clearly works more easily with familiar people than unfamiliar. Conversation is sometimes a little stilted, and certain kinds of jokes and humour pass him by entirely.

You can't rule out that this man is simply rude and graceless, but it might be charitable to withhold that judgment until you've eliminated other possibilities.

Posted by JoannaP (# 4493) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gracious rebel:
Why risk making the situation worse by confronting him about it?

Why not take the chance of improving the situation by gently pointing out that his behaviour is making a colleague uncomfortable and thus giving him the opportunity to explain or to change?

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:

quote:
Originally posted by Gracious rebel:
Why risk making the situation worse by confronting him about it?
Why not take the chance of improving the situation by gently pointing out that his behaviour is making a colleague uncomfortable and thus giving him the opportunity to explain or to change?

Because he's only a temp.

Because there's a good chance it would make matters worse.

Because he can say she makes him uncomfortable...

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gracious rebel:

quote:
To me, the obvious thing seems to be to keep saying 'good morning' every morning and leave it at that.

If saying good morning is just something that doesn't occur to him, you are reminding him.

If it is neurological, then you are beginning to build a framework within which he might start to feel comfortable.

If he is shy, you are maintaining a low level, non pressured friendliness, without demanding further conversation.

If he is just downright rude, then you are, at least, showing him you do not intend your behaviour to be affected by his rudeness.
M. Absolutely.

Seems the best (and obvious) approach to me. Why risk making the situation worse by confronting him about it?

(edited to provide quote for context, as top of new page)

Adding my

This is the way to go.

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

See I have to admit I must be an anti-social freak, because I as I read this thread my first thought is "So the guy doesn't want to say hello. So just leave the guy alone!"

I might be influenced by the fact that often my co-workers and I don't say hello to each other until lunch. Certainly no obligatory hellos. C sits 20 feet from me at most, but when she comes in she usually goes straight to her computer without a word. If our eyes meet, we say hello, but often I'm in the middle of work, and she wants her coffee. And that's fine too.

Posted by George Spigot (# 253) on :

Why do so many people on this thread feel entitled to social response? Nobody owes you a smile or a "good morning". He's not being rude at all. Being rude would involve him actively insulting the OP in some way. He's simply being neutral.

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
See I have to admit I must be an anti-social freak, because I as I read this thread my first thought is "So the guy doesn't want to say hello. So just leave the guy alone!"

I might be influenced by the fact that often my co-workers and I don't say hello to each other until lunch. Certainly no obligatory hellos. C sits 20 feet from me at most, but when she comes in she usually goes straight to her computer without a word. If our eyes meet, we say hello, but often I'm in the middle of work, and she wants her coffee. And that's fine too.

Yes, same here. If people make eye contact and greet me I'll always reply, but I won't interrupt them if they're engaged in something. People can be unsociable first thing in the morning - it seems to be a growing trend now that most people don't have breakfast until they get to the office, which doesn't always help.

Posted by Liopleurodon (# 4836) on :

I get a bit snippy with people responding to every event of bad manners or inappropriateness with "it's probably autism" and by extension "so you should pretend everything's fine." It may be or it may not be, and I can't possibly diagnose this guy from one bit of information about him.

However I do get irritated with this approach to autism. I'm diagnosed with Aspergers and pretty much everyone in my family is at least a bit autistic. Consider that Asperger's comes with a lack of talent at people skills, or a lack of intuition about them. That doesn't mean that pretending everything is wonderful helps. If I've offended you, I may need to be told directly that I've offended you, because I may not realise from the subtle non-verbal signs that people typically rely upon to express offence. What I don't need is for you to assume that I can't do any better and to sit there being unhappy with my behaviour while not saying anything. That doesn't help anyone. It's on a level with "sure she's dyslexic but let's just pretend that she spells everything correctly as it's not her fault."

If someone is high functioning enough to be in the workplace, then not saying hello to colleagues is rude. If they don't realise that it's rude because of a disability, it's still rude and they need to have that explained to them. If he is on the spectrum, then it may not be his fault that he doesn't know, but there's really no reason not to tell him.

Posted by Amorya (# 2652) on :

quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
Why do so many people on this thread feel entitled to social response? Nobody owes you a smile or a "good morning". He's not being rude at all. Being rude would involve him actively insulting the OP in some way. He's simply being neutral.

I disagree. It is rude not to reply to "Good morning". There are plenty of ways to respond in a way that is not rude but makes it clear you don't want to start a conversation: a nod, perhaps, or by glancing up, saying "Morning", then looking back down at what you are doing.

He might not be being purposefully rude (I'd say it's unlikely that he is, although I only have what's written here to go on), and on the rudeness scale it's nowhere near as bad as insulting someone, or spilling their drink and not apologising. But surely acknowledging a greeting is one of those social graces that I'd expect people to be taught as a child.

If I were in the OP's situation, I'd go on saying "Good morning" even if I didn't get a response, but I wouldn't do anything else. Discussing it would be awkward. Trying to engage further conversation to provoke a response would be just as rude.

Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :

So it's been a few weeks now. The guy is still being a bit strange, but I would say that perhaps through conditioning he is now saying "Good Morning" on his own maybe once or twice a week, and responding in a slightly more normal fashion to me when I initiate (which I now do whenever he says nothing). I think he's also noticed that pretty much everyone says "Good morning" when they come into the office, including the senior directors.

I am certain he does not have any developmental issue (e.g. autism, Aspberger's). Someone mentioned that he was an independent consultant for a long period of time and had been working from home prior to joining. I think honestly he's just forgotten what is normal social behaviour in a workplace.

Posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger (# 8891) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
Someone mentioned that he was an independent consultant for a long period of time and had been working from home prior to joining. I think honestly he's just forgotten what is normal social behaviour in a workplace.

This strikes a chord - I have a friend who's social skills are shall we say limited.

He worked from home, mostly alone for many years, he then got a job as a part time lecturer. Being out working with other people improved his social skills somewhat. He's now bcak working on his own, and has regressed.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Count me in with the "why is this such a mortal
insult, people differ, leave him be" contingent.

The following is generally directed at the "he's so rude" folks, and not just at Seeking Sister.

I've worked with all sorts of people, in a variety of venues. A lot of folks are best left alone in the morning, or certain other times of day. Many are plain unapproachable, and you mentally practice any interactions before approaching their cubicles. Some people go ballistic if you ask them for an informal, verbal update on a project. Etc., etc.

Yeah, per social rules, maybe he does "owe" you a
modicum of attention. But *not* in any absolute
sense. Who knows why he doesn't greet you? Maybe it's ASD, or face blindness, or some other
diagnosable impairment. Maybe not greeting has
been perfectly acceptable in his previous work and social situations. Maybe he has personal problems, and it's all he can do to just show up and work. Maybe he's just very focused.

IMHO, it would be very rude to make a big production of civilizing him. Just maybe casually say "hey", once in a while, if you want to offer an opportunity for some kind of connection--but detach from the results, and don't work yourself up into being offended. Just be polite when you have to talk to him about work--and leave it at that.

I wonder if this is a Pond cultural difference??
[Confused]

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

(Sorry the above formatting is messy. Copied and pasted, and had to reformat by hand, and missed a couple of lines. Then I couldn't bring up Preview. Etc.)

[Hot and Hormonal]

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
(Sorry the above formatting is messy. Copied and pasted, and had to reformat by hand, and missed a couple of lines. Then I couldn't bring up Preview. Etc.)

Well, how rude! Clearly someone who can't be bothered to get the formatting right-- and really, it's not that hard, anyone can do it-- is really saying they think that taking the time to correctly format a post is beneath them. Clearly you think we're not worth the time and effort...!

(j/k of course. You are spot on in your not-all-that-badly formatted post. Not everything is about me)
[Biased]

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

Cliffdweller--

You had me going--for a moment!
[Razz]

UBB.classic^TM 6.5.0