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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: February Book Club - Rivers of London
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Tree Bee
Ship's tiller girl
# 4033
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Try this. With the volume down.
Animated rivers
Here's a better map. Lost rivers
You can see that the Tyburn does cross the western end of Oxford Street.
Thanks, that looks right. My cousin pointed it out to me from her flat in Picton Place near Selfridges.
That animated map is rather 'wormy' though!
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"Any fool can make something complicated. It takes a genius to make it simple."
— Woody Guthrie
http://saysaysay54.wordpress.com
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ArachnidinElmet
Shipmate
# 17346
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Posted
I very much enjoyed this book and will definitely be reading the rest of the series.
I found the people and situations to be realistic on the books' own terms. The characters are rounded and interesting, and the geography and history accurate enough to make the fictional bits believable. It was a pleasure to have Peter, on finding out about the existence of magic, just make his adjustments and get on with his life, rather than the angst-ridden whining in some other series ("Oh why must I know this secret? Why can't I go back to my old life." etc, ad nauseum).
There's an awful lot of urban fantasy on my bookshelves, so having a ghost/vampire detective story is no sort of problem. I did think that the magic ran away with Aaronovitch a little at the end; having Molly bite Peter to enable him to chase Mr Punch seemed a bit of a reach.
It reminded me most of the Malcolm Pryce Aberystwyth books (well worth a read). I wouldn't like to say that anything has been deliberately lifted from other authors as there's a really deep seam of London-based hidden history and magic-in-the-real-world books. It's practically a sub-genre of its own.
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'If a pleasant, straight-forward life is not possible then one must try to wriggle through by subtle manoeuvres' - Kafka
Posts: 1887 | From: the rhubarb triangle | Registered: Sep 2012
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cattyish
Wuss in Boots
# 7829
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Posted
I'm pleased to have read this book as an audiobook. It was right up my street, even though my street is nowhere near London.
The characters were good fun. I liked that Beverley Brook was reluctant to get into trouble. The dream-like introduction to Lady Ty was an engagingly different interlude within the story.
I also liked the hard work which the magik required of its practitioners,and that magik did not solve all problems.
The main character's variable attitude to women was interesting, and I didn't think it was unrealistic.
Cattyish, running around the countryside while listening to books.
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...to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived, this is to have succeeded.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Beverly Brook made me grin when I encountered her because I knew where that one was from walking my dog in that area.
I'll have to dig it out but there's a book on my shelves I last read years ago called the Lost Rivers of London by Nicholas Barton - much prettier edition than my version here.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
Thanks for the link to the websites Penny S. My dad always said a river ran under where we lived when i was a kid. I'm sure he said it was the Fleet, but it was actually the Westbourne, I reckon we lived where the the toll gate in Kilburn used to be.
These books are a great introduction to London history, I feel a walk to visit some of the sites coming on.
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
1. Is there anyone who didn't enjoy the book?
2. How believable did you find the characters?
3. Do you find the mixture of London past and present, police procedural and magic works for you?
4. How frustrating did you find the lack of answers about the magic? As frustrating as Peter, more or less?
5. How likely are you to go on and read other books of the series?
6. How much did you enjoy the contemporary references, humour and snark?
(Interleaving quotes are unimaginably fiddly on a phone ...)
1. I am cautious of books that are the first in a series but I'm glad I started this one.
2. Not sure. Sometimes Peter felt like a well-intentioned middle class white guy pretending to be black. I also thought that the elementals ought to be either more famous or less powerful given that magic wasn't a secret in this world. But that's just a niggle.
3. I really liked this. I was surprised to find that Aaronovitch doesn't have a police background.
4. I thought that made it more believable, as well as funnier.
5. Already have.
6. A lot, and it definitely brought the characters to life.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I think that the Nicholas Barton book ends up by touching on an idea that living over a buried river is not good for the health in various ways - which is worrying with regard to a friend who lives over the Effra. (fortunately it has shown no signs of coming to the surface there in the recent exundations).
I agree that animation looks wormy - I had to give up watching it after a bit.
I too thought that the work involved in doing magic and in learning it was a good aspect of the book, as are the costs on the practitioner. (A way round this becomes apparent in book four.) I'm not sure that the existence of magic is generally known in Peter's world, rather hushed up. Rather less known about than Wicca in ours. I got the impression that the incidents caused by Mr Punch were given other explanations. And it had, according to Nightingale, somewhat dropped out of apparent existence since the war. I think a world in which it was generally known about would be a very different one.
I did come across a book recently with a title suggesting it was about underground London - but it wasn't what I expected. Not tunnels and rivers and bomb shelters and war rooms, but a sort of prehistorical survey of unprovable folklore and antiquarian supposition, such as the place where Aeneas' son Brutus set up his base, and the slight rise in the roads round Westminster where there was a Tothill, and the place where Merlin had a cave in a reservoir. I think I passed the book on to a friend, as I usually do with London stuff. As I recall, it was the sort of book which supposes that there might, actually, be some sort of energy to be found in such places. (And not the sort of thing which may produce miasmas over old rivers.) Some people like the idea of a world more like Peter's than ours. I don't.
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
It's a kind of Men in Black situation - there is effectively a conspiracy by the authorities to conceal it.
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Drat, I've just realised I forgot to go to the library to pick up Soho.
I've been searching for the lost landscape book. This isn't it, but I enjoyed the description - and the nominative determinism of the author's name. Richard Trench. London under London
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Got it.
Unearthing London
And why it did not come up with search words like secret, hidden, beneath, lost, underground, ancient etc I can't tell. All of which words now look weird, and which brought up some very odd stuff indeed. Odder than Aaronovitch's fiction.
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
It's a kind of Men in Black situation - there is effectively a conspiracy by the authorities to conceal it.
In Rivers of London it's more of a conspiracy by the authorities to hope it goes away if they don't believe in it.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I'm not sure it can be called a conspiracy if the parties do not actually discuss their response, but severally make a point of being seen not to act as if they believe in it.
I am beginning to wonder about Lesley, and how early she was invaded by the thing. And why her. Or, alternatively, how early Aaronovitch decided what he was going to do with her. I'm going to have to reread Rivers. Does he do uncomplicated females at all?
Aaronovitch seems to be afflicted with the NuWho long story arc thing. (I know that seems to be future referencing again, but I find I am seeing the series as one book.)
BTW, did Mrs Hogsmill show up anywhere? Or Mrs Quaggy? And I'm wondering if Beverley Brook was a trigger for the whole rivers thing - none of the others actually sound like a person, and he could have done the story of the Folly and Peter's induction into it without the rivers at all. Other ancient characters are available.
Have you seen this? The Folly
[ 26. February 2014, 21:16: Message edited by: Penny S ]
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
Penny S said:
quote:
BTW, did Mrs Hogsmill show up anywhere? Or Mrs Quaggy? And I'm wondering if Beverley Brook was a trigger for the whole rivers thing - none of the others actually sound like a person, and he could have done the story of the Folly and Peter's induction into it without the rivers at all. Other ancient characters are available.
Don't know about the Quaggy, but the Hogsmill would be a mister as it's above Teddington Lock. I was looking out for him as he's my local river. I agree I couldn't really make sense of the rivers, which is probably why i liked the second book where they hardly feature more. Though I liekd this one a lot too.
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
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Kyzyl
Ship's dog
# 374
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Posted
The rivers seem to play a boundary defining role. Maybe the limits of "London"? They do play subsidiary roles in the other books that in my mind serve as a grounding in place; a reminder of what lurks beneath and has been covered up but is not gone.
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I need a quote.
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
Now I've finished the book I wanted to report back. One is that I enjoyed the second half much more than the first. Two is that it reads like the first section of a longer book, which follows someone else's 'story arc' point and three is that I'm reading book two.
Please can the book club read 'Dirk Gently's detective agency' next? I'd be very interested to know what you all think of it.
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
Neil Gaiman's Neverwhere would also make an interesting Compare and Contrast.
The discussion of the upcoming programme is going on
here.
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Book two is where the criticism of gratuitous sex applies, I have now discovered. If I had come across it first I might well not have continued. But it's easily skipped.
The Hogsmill, should Aaronovitch delve into geomorphology, should be a cause of trouble between the Thameses. I am aware from a friend's thesis that it has been identified as having reversed its direction of flow in the past. (Due to recent micro-tectonic changes.) Looking on the map, it looks very much as though it has captured the upper stretches of Beverly Brook - notice the doglegs in both which follow the same trend, in line with each other. So there might be a problem with gender identity. Should he wish to use that in a future narrative.
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I'm not sure it can be called a conspiracy if the parties do not actually discuss their response, but severally make a point of being seen not to act as if they believe in it.
I think he was trying to do a delicate balancing act between a. the authorities are embarrassed that it exists; b. the authorities want to think it's unimportant (in the same way that nobody cares there's still a Lord Warden of the Cinque Ports); c. the authorities need to bring the magical branch in for special cases.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Well, yes - but I suppose I expect a conspiracy to at some time have involved a group of people discussing something and coming to an agreement - though without keeping minutes.
I think the Cinque Ports cares, BTW, I remember all the fuss about HRH the Queen Mother getting installed. (Lived just down the hill.)
[ 01. March 2014, 09:40: Message edited by: Penny S ]
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
I know Sir Kevin wanted to discuss Moon over Soho , maybe now it's March we can now discuss the series in general.
I didn't think the sex in Moon over Soho was gratuitous as such, as it did move the plot along. I liked Simone, even though it was obvious from the start she was a bit of a femme fatale.
I like the idea of the Hogsmill and Beverley Brook getting involved. I see the Hogsmill as someone that would like to be seen as a trendy city type, but is really rather suburban. I've already read three of the books now and he's yet to make an appearance.
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gussie:
I know Sir Kevin wanted to discuss Moon over Soho , maybe now it's March we can now discuss the series in general.
March it may be, but people have only had 10 days to discuss the current book, which is a week and a bit, and there are some who haven't read any more than one we're currently featuring. Some won't want to, and it'll be spoilers for others. How about we give it a bit longer?
(No reason why people can't chat about it in the cafe meanwhile, though.)
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I don't think the sex happening was gratuitous, but the detail didn't seem all that necessary.
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
Hogsmill? Must order Book Three and Four...
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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
You won't find it there! I was picking up the odder named tributaries that didn't make good personal names. (One of its sources is close to the Epsom Salts well, which could be amusing.)
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Kyzyl
Ship's dog
# 374
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Posted
A simple question, one that has deepened upon reading the other books in the series...what is Molly? My fast classification would be "ghoul", which to me means a creature that subsists on blood but not necessarily a vampire (and we know what happens to them in this series.) What is her relationship to Nightingale and The Folly? It has to be than servant, IMO.
[ 02. March 2014, 22:21: Message edited by: Kyzyl ]
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I need a quote.
Posts: 668 | From: Wapasha's Prairie | Registered: Jun 2001
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I recall reading that she was found as a child, of a sort described as "incomplete" (or synonym) during a raid on some practioners. That such people arose when people had been exposed to a lot of magical energies, as did the vampires, and that in some cases the condition was hereditary. That she was taken back to the Folly as a temporary expedient preparatory to finding her a good home, and that she then refused to step outside its doors. (She orders the food to be delivered somehow.) (This may be in "Moon over Soho", as it seems relevant to that plot.) As to what she is, I think Aaronovitch is leaving it undefined. Is Mrs Addams a ghoul?
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Kyzyl
Ship's dog
# 374
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I recall reading that she was found as a child, of a sort described as "incomplete" (or synonym) during a raid on some practioners. That such people arose when people had been exposed to a lot of magical energies, as did the vampires, and that in some cases the condition was hereditary. That she was taken back to the Folly as a temporary expedient preparatory to finding her a good home, and that she then refused to step outside its doors. (She orders the food to be delivered somehow.) (This may be in "Moon over Soho", as it seems relevant to that plot.) As to what she is, I think Aaronovitch is leaving it undefined. Is Mrs Addams a ghoul?
Wow, I missed all of that somehow. Must have been the late night reading. I remember the food deliveries and the painting with her as the subject. I find Molly quite intriguing. She is coming out of her shell a bit in the later books, at least in a culinary sense. I like that Aaronovitch is taking a dig at Jamie Oliver; that's how I read it.
And Morticia Addams is a dark goddess in my mind!
[ 03. March 2014, 15:52: Message edited by: Kyzyl ]
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I need a quote.
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
Molly as a ghoul is an interesting thought. I had always gotten the impression of Arachnid energy, Would a ghoul be able to make into the Folly?
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Kyzyl
Ship's dog
# 374
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Molly as a ghoul is an interesting thought. I had always gotten the impression of Arachnid energy, Would a ghoul be able to make into the Folly?
Arachnid energy, what a great idea. Would the Folly be her lair/nest? Is she protecting her nest? Interesting line of thought.
(Code fix)
[ 03. March 2014, 21:19: Message edited by: Firenze ]
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I need a quote.
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Kyzyl
Ship's dog
# 374
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
What's arachnid energy?
I took it to mean she has the energy/spirit of a spider. Venom/pincers/teeth, etc...
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I need a quote.
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
Spider is what I meant by arachnid. She does spend a lot of time nesting and feeding.
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ArachnidinElmet
Shipmate
# 17346
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
What's arachnid energy?
That would be telling ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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'If a pleasant, straight-forward life is not possible then one must try to wriggle through by subtle manoeuvres' - Kafka
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Kyzyl
Ship's dog
# 374
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Posted
Thanks Firenze.
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I need a quote.
Posts: 668 | From: Wapasha's Prairie | Registered: Jun 2001
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Well, I knew that an arachnid would be a spider, but the capitalisation and the energy suggested it was a reference to something I didn't know about.
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Sarasa
Shipmate
# 12271
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Posted
I like the concept of arachnid energy, but I don't see Molly as a scuttled as such, she is always described as gliding. Maybe she is a mix of spider, ghoul and something else.
I do like the way she isn't properly explained away.
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'I guess things didn't go so well tonight, but I'm trying. Lord, I'm trying.' Charlie (Harvey Keitel) in Mean Streets.
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
I had Molly pegged as a straightforward vampire who has a bond with Nightingale - probably and quite simply, because he rescued her and gave her a home in the Folly, and understood her situation. In return she seems quite protective about him.
I rather like the way that although she never speaks, Peter manages to have quite convincing one-sided conversations with her!
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
There's also Molly's ability to let Peter track Mr. Punch through space and time. That is perhaps a web that the Fates spin, or perhaps a bowl of chitterlings.
If I recall, Molly was taken up by other members of the Folly before Nightingale was involved.
[ 04. March 2014, 20:24: Message edited by: Palimpsest ]
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
There's also Peter's question to Molly about the discomfited rugby player at the end of Rivers of London - if she'd been involved in that.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
I'm really enjoying the second book, moon over Soho, it's hit its stride now, and this one's deeply grounded in music. Slightly obvious where it's going, but it's not meant to be a mystery, is it? More enjoy the language and atmosphere thing.
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
The second book is a bit more relaxed in that the author doesn't have to explain the entire world and Peter doesn't have to discover that magic works. The flow between books does remind me of what someone said earlier about the New Dr Who multi episode arc. There are many loose ends in the first book, new ones are added in the second and some are explained.
I also enjoyed that the he was tied back into the regular police routine. That had gotten somewhat missing in the second half of the first book.
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ArachnidinElmet
Shipmate
# 17346
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Posted
There was a buy two get one half price in Waterstones, so have now read books 2 & 3. I can resist everything apart from temptation ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Is anyone else having a problem with Lady Ty? I'm finding her motivations a bit opaque. Why does she want a more organised magical police division? Does she want more power/recognition or is she genuinely concerned for the people of London? Hmm.
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'If a pleasant, straight-forward life is not possible then one must try to wriggle through by subtle manoeuvres' - Kafka
Posts: 1887 | From: the rhubarb triangle | Registered: Sep 2012
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I too do not feel comfortable with Ty (I'm not going to grace her with ladyship). Given long arcs, I can see her having some sort of relationship - whether antagonistic or something else - with Faceless. Both want power. I preferred the elder Tyburn. I wonder how Mama Thames gets on with her, and what the actual relationship is. Is she a real daughter, or adopted as Thames is. The "joking" reference to a Ministry of Magic carries a lot of luggage with it which would not be tolerable in any sort of "RL".
I realise that I visualise her like a woman who turned up outside my old home organising the drug dealing. The police asked if I had seen a Vietnamese woman there, and I said not, but later realised that the elegant, slender, and authoritatively businesslike black woman with a status symbol car could have been Vietnamese from a mixed relationship during the war.
[ 07. March 2014, 09:46: Message edited by: Penny S ]
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Kyzyl
Ship's dog
# 374
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Posted
I see Tyburn as trying to reclaim her lost heritage. She bristles at the fact that most people associate "Tyburn" with hanging and public executions a rather than a river arising in a genteel bucolic glade.
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I need a quote.
Posts: 668 | From: Wapasha's Prairie | Registered: Jun 2001
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
Tyburn is clearly interested in power. It may be that the power is just a continuation of the hangings or it may be that it's a reaction to the river being buried.
[spoiler alert from Whispers Underground]
I'm wondering if we will see the elder Tyburn again and if he will compete or collaborate with Lady Tyburn or her son.
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The Intrepid Mrs S
Shipmate
# 17002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
There's also Peter's question to Molly about the discomfited rugby player at the end of Rivers of London - if she'd been involved in that.
But if that was her, she must have been able to leave the Folly, then? I must have missed all that stuff about her being 'incomplete', as well, unless that comes from a later book?
Mrs. S, puzzled ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Don't get your knickers in a twist over your advancing age. It achieves nothing and makes you walk funny.
Prayer should be our first recourse, not our last resort
'Lord, please give us patience. NOW!'
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Well, I knew that an arachnid would be a spider, but the capitalisation and the energy suggested it was a reference to something I didn't know about.
Cf Benedict Jacka's [Alex Verus]i series...
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
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Kyzyl
Ship's dog
# 374
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Well, I knew that an arachnid would be a spider, but the capitalisation and the energy suggested it was a reference to something I didn't know about.
Cf Benedict Jacka's [Alex Verus]i series...
Just starting to read the "Alex Versus" series and liking them so far.
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I need a quote.
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
Since we've wandered not only from the original book, but even the original author, it's maybe time to put this one back on the shelf.
Firenze
Heaven's Librarian
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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