Ship of Fools: Pssst ... anyone want to sell a church?

Thread: Pssst ... anyone want to sell a church? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Gracious rebel (# 3523) on :

I am webmaster for our church. When I arrived at church this morning there was a letter for me. It was addressed to myself by name (which in itself is a little freaky, for as far as I know, my name is not anywhere on the website) at the church address.

The contents were astounding. From a property acquisition company based in London. A few choice quotes:

'One of our retained clients is currently looking to purchase a church privately in the area'

'We have been instructed to acquire churches and church halls on a freehold basis'

'We offer a 14 day exchange of contracts timetable'

'Our client (sic) are cash funded and do not require bank borrowings'

'We offer total confidentiality'

'Should this letter be of interest, we look forward to hearing from you'

Anyone else get these? (Its actually the second one I've had) What on earth is going on?

Is this the most bizarre letter anyone has received via church, or can you beat it?

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

I've never heard of letters being sent out like this. But I once read about a village somewhere (or maybe it was a comment about a more general state of affairs) where estate agents would wait patiently for the struggling local chapel to close, so they could acquire it for clients who were eager to get their hands on a potential church conversion. There's something rather vampirish about that, certainly.....

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

Why do they assume the church is yours to sell?

I know nothing of ecclesiastical property matters, but I've always assumed buildings belonged to the Denomination, rather than any current clergy or officers.

Of course, you could just respond with: "No problem. 500k in the a/c of G Rebel, C/o Grand Cayman Island, and it's all yours. Key under the vestry mat, deeds in the box marked 'biscuits'."

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

I can sort of top that. We actually used to get real live human beings (okay, human is questionable) WITH CLIPBOARDS, come into the narthex, walk around looking at things and marking things down, and when asked what they were doing, say, "Is this building for sale?"

Happened at least twice, I believe.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

In the congregationalist-type denominations each church will belong to its congregation. In British Methodism, a church will belong to the circuit, which is a grouping of churches in a locality or region. So closure is decided at the congregational level, except that for Methodists the circuit also has to agree. Circuits almost always do agree, because they don't support struggling churches, and because a closed church is one that can be sold, thereby raising money for the rest of the circuit.

The letter that Gracious Rebel received would make little sense to any church belonging to the CofE, where closure is decided much higher up the chain. But for a rural Nonconformist church in difficulty such a letter might be stored away carefully for future reference....

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

I have never heard of it, but I am not surprised. I am always getting cards from estate agents wanting to buy my house, because I live in a desirable area. I also keep getting emails and voicemails that want me to sell my rental property (or buy more properties to rent).

Some of the estate agents do have something of an ambulance-chasing mentality. I suspect that the money they can get for churches sold for development, and getting in early is worth their while.

At the end of the day, it does make sense for churches to consider whether they would be better off selling up. It is worth, sometimes, considering whether a sale would make more sense than refurbishing.

Gracious Rebel - was your name used to register the site? If you are on the whois lookup, that does not take much to find.

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

This left me with a momentary vision of a rapacious estate agent eagerly browsing the Mystery Worshipper reports looking for bad sermons and low attendance. [Smile]

Posted by OddJob (# 17591) on :

I suspect the most likely reason for a mystery buyer seeking a church is to continue using it as a place of worship, thereby circumventing the need to seek planning permission to convert other premises for this purpose, where it would be controversial. But what form of worship? And worshipping whom or what?

Personally I've been asked to value a few obscure buildings, but never a church, for which conventional valuation methodologies just don't work.

I wonder how many churches would welcome the prospect of selling their expensive-to-maintain building and replacing it with something more modern and suitable.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by OddJob:
I suspect the most likely reason for a mystery buyer seeking a church is to continue using it as a place of worship, thereby circumventing the need to seek planning permission to convert other premises for this purpose, where it would be controversial.

In my city in the W. Mids you do see some old church buildings that have passed into the hands of newer denominations. Afro-Caribbean Pentecostal congregations sometimes moved into these buildings. But these usually developed a presence in a particular area over time, first meeting together in homes, then in rented halls, then buying their own churches, as finances allowed. They didn't turn up somewhere completely new with a big bunch of money and demand that an estate agent secretly find them a big church building to buy.

Some of the even newer ecclesiastical arrivals do appear to be well-funded from the outset, but they don't seem terribly interested in 'traditional' church buildings. Firstly, in the big cities many of the original Nonconformist churches have already been sold off, often to faith groups of other religions. Secondly, these buildings don't always seem suited to the needs of the new charismatic churches.

The late 19th c. groups are going through mixed fortunes. Some now have surplus ageing buildings that can be bought by the newer movements; others construct new buildings for worship in the suburbs; yet others are still growing in urban areas and prefer to buy 'traditional-looking' church buildings.

I don't know which of these situations would apply where Gracious Rebel lives. If she wants to go sleuthing she might find out who really wants her church....

Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I can sort of top that. We actually used to get real live human beings (okay, human is questionable) WITH CLIPBOARDS, come into the narthex, walk around looking at things and marking things down, and when asked what they were doing, say, "Is this building for sale?"

I don't think you have to worry until they start cracking their knuckles and murmuring "Nice little church you've got here. Be a shame if something happened to it..."

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

[Killing me]

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gracious rebel:
I am webmaster for our church. When I arrived at church this morning there was a letter for me. It was addressed to myself by name (which in itself is a little freaky, for as far as I know, my name is not anywhere on the website) at the church address.

The contents were astounding. From a property acquisition company based in London. A few choice quotes:

'One of our retained clients is currently looking to purchase a church privately in the area'

'We have been instructed to acquire churches and church halls on a freehold basis'

'We offer a 14 day exchange of contracts timetable'

'Our client (sic) are cash funded and do not require bank borrowings'

'We offer total confidentiality'

'Should this letter be of interest, we look forward to hearing from you'

Anyone else get these? (Its actually the second one I've had) What on earth is going on?

Is this the most bizarre letter anyone has received via church, or can you beat it?

Yep got that one this week. It's the second one we've had. We're about 40 miles from Bristol

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Why do they assume the church is yours to sell?

I know nothing of ecclesiastical property matters, but I've always assumed buildings belonged to the Denomination, rather than any current clergy or officers.

Yes, but these are estate agents we're dealing with here who are notoriously stupid. They probably also assume that Gracious Rebel is the "vicar" so owns the church building and all its assets outright.

quote:

Of course, you could just respond with: "No problem. 500k in the a/c of G Rebel, C/o Grand Cayman Island, and it's all yours. Key under the vestry mat, deeds in the box marked 'biscuits'."

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

Nonconformist buildings will vary.

Some will be owned outright by the denomination.

Independent churches will own their own buildings; this usually involves a Board of Trustees as churches (being "unincorporated bodies") cannot legally own property in Britain. I guess a few independent church buildings are privately owned by individuals.

A lot of church buildings are owned by the local congregation with the deeds held "in trust" by the denomination rather than local Boards. A Church can make a resolution to sell up (or make major alterations) but this would need the Trust Board's approval and there may be some legal niceties in the Trust Deeds to negotiate as well.

It's all very different to the Anglicans ...

Posted by Stejjie (# 13941) on :

We've had two of them so far (Baptist/Congregational church on outskirts of Manchester) - we've decided to ignore them.

Posted by Stejjie (# 13941) on :

Actually (with apologies for the double post) I'm kinda glad other people have got this letter. Because we're right next to the market in our town which has just been sold to a new owner. There were rumours that they would want to do away with the market and convert the land into flats/similar development and would want to buy the church and use our land for the same purpose. So it was kind of ringing true for some of us that this may have been genuine.

Thanks to this thread, feel happier about filing it in the round filing cabinet on the floor.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

It seems as if the folk who are getting these letters are either Baptists or Congregationalists/URC. Which suggests that someone has been trawling through denominational directories.

Posted by Wednesbury (# 14097) on :

Yes, I've had two as well. Methodist church in Essex.

Posted by Felafool (# 270) on :

I was the leader of an indy evo church in a town centre position. The church owned it's own building which was large and potentially a tremendous resource for all sorts of stuff. A property developer was building an office block next door, and offered the church trustees a very large sum for the building.

Although the offer was rejected, it focussed minds on what our mission purpose was and how the building featured in that purpose. We also considered what we might be able to do with such a sum but no building. We also asked ourselves the question 'what offer (if any) might be too good to refuse?'

The answers to all these questions were very revealing...as someone once said, 'where your treasure lies, there is your heart' or words to that effect?

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
but this would need the Trust Board's approval and there may be some legal niceties in the Trust Deeds to negotiate as well.

In the case of Baptists any proceeds of sale are divided 50:50 between the Baptist Union and the local association. The only exception to this is churches with very old trust deeds (pre 1950's)

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

Sounds distinctly fishy to me. I'd be very wary.

Quite a useful test is to write back and say something on the lines of 'I can pass on your enquiry if you wish, but if I'm going to, you'll have to tell me who you're acting for'. If they don't or won't, assume it's suspect. It's a basic rule never to deal with anyone who claims to be an agent but won't tell you who for.

If they say 'they are an important property company/church but they have instructed us not to disclose who they are at this stage', you needn't assume. It is suspect.

If they do tell you, it's useful information for the curious, even if the church has no interest in dealing with them.

The other possibility is that it's a fishing exercise. They have no one behind them, but if they think your church might be looking to sell, they're trying to get your business. So if their reply starts to mention anything about you paying commission, again, put it in the bin.

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

This reminds me of a person who would turn up at churches in South London which had had fires the day after the event and ask if they wanted to sell. My friend and I assumed he had not heard of Marcus Licinius Crassus. Or, alternatively, assumed no-one else had.

[ 10. March 2014, 14:59: Message edited by: Penny S ]

Posted by Sparrow (# 2458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Of course, you could just respond with: "No problem. 500k in the a/c of G Rebel, C/o Grand Cayman Island, and it's all yours. Key under the vestry mat, deeds in the box marked 'biscuits'."

500k? I would hold out for 1.5 million at least!

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
but this would need the Trust Board's approval and there may be some legal niceties in the Trust Deeds to negotiate as well.
In the case of Baptists any proceeds of sale are divided 50:50 between the Baptist Union and the local association. The only exception to this is churches with very old trust deeds (pre 1950's)

That is only true if a church closes. If a church still exists, then Charity Law comes into play and the proceeds of sale have to be invested in a new building. This can have amusing results: I now of two churches which amalgamated; they were awash with cash and so built to a higher standard than was strictly necessary as they knew that any money left over would be "untouchable".

In our case a Baptist Church amalgamated with a URC church, in the URC building. The sale proceeds of the Baptist Church went to the BU but we still receive the interest on those monies, plus ground rent from the organisation which built on the site.

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sparrow:

quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Of course, you could just respond with: "No problem. 500k in the a/c of G Rebel, C/o Grand Cayman Island, and it's all yours. Key under the vestry mat, deeds in the box marked 'biscuits'."
500k? I would hold out for 1.5 million at least!

All depends on where you are ...

Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :

DP and I have noticed at least a half-dozen church buildings for sale in our travels during the past year.

Posted by The Intrepid Mrs S (# 17002) on :

Gosh, we'd love to sell ours. It's Victorian and completely unsuited to the needs of our congregation - and we also have a very much older church in the parish which is of far more historical importance (and religious, come to that).

We're trying to build an extension, among other things so we don't have to have a single loo, that you can't lock (because it's also a fire exit). No chance even of planning permission yet, between the local planners and the Victorian Society *sigh* [Mad]

So, when we sing 'Come set your rule and reign' at a praise service, it's apt to cause a few giggles when we reach 'set your church on fire'. The vicar has been told that next time he finds the boiler house on fire, he's to go and have a nice cup of tea, made in the slow cooker perhaps, to settle his nerves before he calls the fire brigade
[Killing me]

Mrs. S, looking for the kindling pile - or maybe a friendly estate agent?

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

He won't be the first. I can remember a minister ranting about a church secretary who on finding a fire created by an electrical fault called the fire brigade pronto. The church had had a fire previously and just never been right since; water from hoses soaks into the building and it is very hard to recover from it. It therefore needed demolishing and rebuilding.

Jengie

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