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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: A truly vile book that needs banning
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
This is an article from the BBC about a book entitled To Train Up a Child
Anyone who buys this book and uses its methods is an inhuman monster who should be locked away for many, many years.
I'm not a parent who doesn't use corporal punishment. I have done, a very light tap on a hand or bottom to point out where a limit has been breached. The act itself triggered more tears from the kids than any pain. Even then I hated myself for doing it.
To be honest I cannot remember the last tile I had to smack one of my kids. It was years and years ago and I'm not proud of it. There are better ways for me personally, but sometimes it happens and I wont condemn a parent who does lightly smack a child to punish them.
But this book is grotesque. It advocates hitting under one year old - babies! - with sticks! What vile mind comes up with that?
You know me and my attitudes. It takes a great deal to shock me but this has done. I cannot believe anyone who uses the methods outlined in this book can call themselves a Christian in light of all of the love and respect that Christ himself showed to children.
Buying the book should be enough to get you excomunicated from any church and a series of visits from the police and child protection agencies in my view. It is advocating child abuse.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Deano, I don't usually agree with you, but this book is appalling.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
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Posted
IMO, I think book bans are one of the few instances where the "camel's nose" argument is actually valid. Once you ban one book, the next ban becomes easier and so forth.
BTW--need I mention "Spare the rod, spoil the child"? Best ban the Bible then.
(PS - I am anti-corporal punishment)
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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
IMO, I think book bans are one of the few instances where the "camel's nose" argument is actually valid. Once you ban one book, the next ban becomes easier and so forth.
BTW--need I mention "Spare the rod, spoil the child"? Best ban the Bible then.
(PS - I am anti-corporal punishment)
I'm not playing biblical proof texting on this. That phrase, like many other parts of the Bible, is something to ignore anyway.
I'm not interested in a debate about whether banning books is right (that's one for Purg).
All I'm saying is that I personally would ban that book if I had the authority, which unfortunately I don't.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
These things have been around a while. Back in the day I remember a popular US Christian paperback on bringing up kids catching on in the charismatic evangelical group I was involved with.
One of the things it advocated was not smacking with the hand - because Biblically the hand denoted blessing and this would confuse the child - but using an implement instead - a wooden spoon or stick.
That way the punishment would be 'objectified' away from the parental head and onto the implement.
'Yeah, like us a weapon,' as one of the school teachers in the congregation protested.
My mother used to tap me a bit with a wooden spoon when I was very small ... it wasn't considered outrageous in those days. I don't think I came to any harm by it ... but I share Deano's repugnance at books of this type and the kind of advice they give.
So, likewise, I'm with Deano on this one.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I wouldn't ban the book as that would only be to add fuel to the fire of the crackpot US fundies who already feel that their Government is quasi-communist and out to persecute them.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
The fact that three American children have died at the hands of their parents as a direct result of this dreadful book and the appalling teaching of the Pearls speaks for itself, as far as I'm concerned. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
Good call, Deano. I'm against censorship but Michael and Debbie Pearl - fundamentalists who believe in the subordination of women to men, as well as catastrophically bad methods of child-rearing - have a clear moral case to answer for here.
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Even then I hated myself for doing it.
Why would you hate yourself, for such a minor thing?
I'll make an educated guess and say the children won't be demonstrably worse for it. ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
(Personally speaking I've had the opportunity to see an infant who was WHALED on, repeatedly, grow up into one of the most admirable women you're ever likely to meet. While she seems a bit overly submissive now I have no doubt she will eventually be able to rule whatever roost she chooses.)
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
These kinds of Christians have a weird view of a child's nature and how parents should respond to it. They see children as the epitome of walking, talking Original Sin, rebelling against God in God's agents, the parents. They beat the child not just into compliance but into submission and ideally a state of no self-will. They totally ignore all the Biblical gentle and loving views of children in Christ's actions and Paul's metaphors. One freaking line from Proverbs and the rest is out the window.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Laurelin: quote:
The fact that three American children have died at the hands of their parents as a direct result of this dreadful book and the appalling teaching of the Pearls speaks for itself, as far as I'm concerned.
Indeed. But surely a more appropriate response is to sue the pants off the authors for incitement to child abuse, remove children from the care of anyone who follows the 'teaching' of this book and imprison parents who injure or kill their children?
I am not American, but even I can see that banning books (however vile) will be viewed as un-American. Ensuring that every parent in America is aware that 'The Bible says I should do it' is not a valid excuse for child abuse is likely to be more effective in preventing this type of behaviour anyway.
[ 11. December 2013, 14:25: Message edited by: Jane R ]
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
moron: quote:
(Personally speaking I've had the opportunity to see an infant who was WHALED on, repeatedly, grow up into one of the most admirable women you're ever likely to meet. While she seems a bit overly submissive now I have no doubt she will eventually be able to rule whatever roost she chooses.)
Codependents (which given her circumstances she might well be)are usually very nice people. They want to please and who doesn't like that?
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Quote from the book: quote:
When the time comes to apply the rod, take a deep breath, relax, and pray, "Lord, make this a valuable learning session. Cleanse my child of ill-temper and rebellion. May I properly represent your cause in this matter."
Cleanse the child of ill temper? The child? What about the adult who is about to attack the child with a blunt instrument?
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moron:
(Personally speaking I've had the opportunity to see an infant who was WHALED on, repeatedly, grow up into one of the most admirable women you're ever likely to meet. While she seems a bit overly submissive now I have no doubt she will eventually be able to rule whatever roost she chooses.)
The more likely outcome is she'll be attracted to someone who beats the crap out of her, and she'll have a perfectly awful life, as will her children.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
The more likely outcome is she'll be attracted to someone who beats the crap out of her, and she'll have a perfectly awful life, as will her children.
We've been down some similar road before.
Do you really believe all the tripe you read and spout about 'likely outcomes'.
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
The book, from what I have heard (and I have no idea whether the reports of it are accurate), advocates actions that would be considered child abuse. Any book advocating child abuse as something that is acceptable today should be banned.
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
That phrase, like many other parts of the Bible, is something to ignore anyway.
However this is really not the place to argue about biblical authority. Should the bible be banned? Well possibly for a range of reasons, not least because if you read and follow the ideas, it is dangerous. But it needs to be understood properly, and is not a manual for modern day child care.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I don't think we should ban the book but I do think we should have many , many voices raised in counter-argument against the stuff taught in it.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
What Kelly says.
The problem with scripture is that it was given to God's people in different places and times (I've even got my charismatic/con-evo friends to agree to this!) and that resolves any number of apparent inconsistencies in the Bible, to my satisfaction anyhow.
That doesn't resolve the evil influence of the Pearl's though and like others, I'd love to know how the parents can themselves be submissive to God's will to the same extent. Maybe heads of households need to be beaten by pastors?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moron:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Even then I hated myself for doing it.
Why would you hate yourself, for such a minor thing?
I'll make an educated guess and say the children won't be demonstrably worse for it.
(Personally speaking I've had the opportunity to see an infant who was WHALED on, repeatedly, grow up into one of the most admirable women you're ever likely to meet. While she seems a bit overly submissive now I have no doubt she will eventually be able to rule whatever roost she chooses.)
So let me see if I understand this. deano starts a thread, in Hell, in which it is unlikely anyone will yell at him. This offends you so much that you offer up yourself?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moron:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
The more likely outcome is she'll be attracted to someone who beats the crap out of her, and she'll have a perfectly awful life, as will her children.
We've been down some similar road before.
Do you really believe all the tripe you read and spout about 'likely outcomes'.
You're the one who blithely asserted that beating a girl all her life would turn her into an assertive young woman, despite acknowledging that she currently appeared 'submissive'.
I'm reasonably certain that our resident psychologists will confirm that abuse in childhood has a nasty habit of manifesting itself in adulthood. Hell, I'd be more sympathetic to your deranged effluvial outpourings if I thought you'd had the crap beaten out of you every night for the first sixteen years of your life.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Never to late to start..After all, he thinks it a good thing.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
We ban products that cause death and injury.
I don't see why books should be immune from that principle just because we think ideas are some particularly sacred kind of 'product'.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I don't think we should ban the book but I do think we should have many , many voices raised in counter-argument against the stuff taught in it.
That sums it up for me. The book shouldn't banned anymore than the koran, Mein Kampf, The Turner Diaries, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, or the sports page in the local newspaper should be banned. Drag them all out into the sunlight and let folks say what they want about it all.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
You're the one who blithely asserted that beating a girl all her life would turn her into an assertive young woman, despite acknowledging that she currently appeared 'submissive'.
Sorry. I forgot how easily some are wound here. My bad.
quote:
Hell, I'd be more sympathetic to your deranged effluvial outpourings if I thought you'd had the crap beaten out of you every night for the first sixteen years of your life.
As has been said: Them's as dealt it smelt it.
Really, Dok Tor: it's OK to come clean here.
Your among friends. Some of them might even put down their weapons.
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
The book is like pornography. We ban child pornography and allow pretty much everything else. I can see this as child porn in a way, and could thus justify banning it. I'm not much of one for censorship, but the argument can be made I think.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
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Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
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Posted
That book was not around when I was small, but the thinking behind it was. My dad had been through National Service, and in his wisdom decided that what he learned there about immediate obedience applied to myself and my siblings, pretty well from the start.
Fast forward to today and I am very, very damaged by this; there really is no further damage possible. And yes, many people do think I am a lovely person; very kind, very thoughtful, very empathic. They will probably not realise that I am chronically abused, and far too compliant to authority figures. I tend not to tell too many people that one; few can tolerate the awareness without abusing it, and me.
Meanwhile the rest of the family is happily living in denial and pretending that everything is fine. I have not worked for 13 years, but this is never mentioned.
Breaking the spirit of a child cannot be done without also breaking something else, imho. In my case it also broke my sense of identity. I have not read the book, but if it recommends what the BBC says then imo it needs to be regarded as a recommendaton to child abuse, and treated accordingly. This is not safe behaviour; a child does not have a fully formed personality, and if the child is abused to the point of breaking its spirit, it may never manage to achieve this.
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Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Codependents (which given her circumstances she might well be)are usually very nice people. They want to please and who doesn't like that?
Can we lose the diagnosis by message board?
Victims of abuse =/= codependents.
Thanks.
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
I assume that at the heart of this revolting book lurks the pernicious doctrine of original sin. I'd be surprised if this were not the case. If one believes that a child is born in a state of "total depravity", then it makes sense to beat the crap out of it. After all, that child is considered of no value whatsoever until he or she becomes "a proper Christian".
In my view, the problem is not just about the rights and wrongs of corporal punishment, or even a stern view of morality, but it is about a fundamental failing within Christian theology. That is the virus - the toxin - that has led to this particular form of child abuse.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I don't think we should ban the book but I do think we should have many , many voices raised in counter-argument against the stuff taught in it.
That sums it up for me. The book shouldn't banned anymore than the koran, Mein Kampf, The Turner Diaries, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, or the sports page in the local newspaper should be banned. Drag them all out into the sunlight and let folks say what they want about it all.
Unless you wish to add the bible to this list, it is a fair bit offensive to include the Koran.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I don't think we should ban the book but I do think we should have many , many voices raised in counter-argument against the stuff taught in it.
That sums it up for me. The book shouldn't banned anymore than the koran, Mein Kampf, The Turner Diaries, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, or the sports page in the local newspaper should be banned. Drag them all out into the sunlight and let folks say what they want about it all.
Unless you wish to add the bible to this list, it is a fair bit offensive to include the Koran.
The NT doesn't tell me to go make life hell on other folks.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moron:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
You're the one who blithely asserted that beating a girl all her life would turn her into an assertive young woman, despite acknowledging that she currently appeared 'submissive'.
Sorry. I forgot how easily some are wound here. My bad.
quote:
Hell, I'd be more sympathetic to your deranged effluvial outpourings if I thought you'd had the crap beaten out of you every night for the first sixteen years of your life.
As has been said: Them's as dealt it smelt it.
Really, Dok Tor: it's OK to come clean here.
Your among friends. Some of them might even put down their weapons.
Jeez, you skeeve. When you drool does it burn holes in the floor?
Maybe you get off on the idea of someone's home life being some character-building boot camp full of instructive pain and shaming, but I think 9 out of 10 people with a grain of a soul would disagree.
And I double fucking dare you to walk up to that woman you so admire, look her in the eye, and say, "admit it, the beatings you got WHEN YOU WERE AN INFANT! were necessary for your personal growth."
[ 13. December 2013, 03:42: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I don't think we should ban the book but I do think we should have many , many voices raised in counter-argument against the stuff taught in it.
That sums it up for me. The book shouldn't banned anymore than the koran, Mein Kampf, The Turner Diaries, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, or the sports page in the local newspaper should be banned. Drag them all out into the sunlight and let folks say what they want about it all.
Unless you wish to add the bible to this list, it is a fair bit offensive to include the Koran.
The NT doesn't tell me to go make life hell on other folks.
Right. So when homosexuality is being discussed, the OT is relevant and Jesus "didn't come to overthrow the OT" But when atrocities are being compared, the OT is not relevant?
Both halves of the bible have been used to make life hell for other people.
You place an entire religions guideline in the same category as those pieces of shit because you do not like what some of its followers do? Again, the bible belongs there if the Koran does.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Bingo (sorry, Bingo, not you the expression)
The Koran was written at a time when everybody and his great granddad wanted to specifically kill Mohammed and his ragtag band of followers. Consequently, the Koran has a lot of stuff in it about fending off the enemy that radical fundamentalists use to justify terrorism. The NT has a lot of stuff in it that oppressors used to justify pogroms, Crusades, witch burnings, and slavery.
Can we stop playing "my religion is better than yours," human race, please? Because at this desperate point in time we need to draw on every genuine insight anyone has ever had to strengthen us.
[ 13. December 2013, 04:18: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Laurelin
Shipmate
# 17211
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Posted
Catholic blogger Elizabeth Esther challenged Michael Pearl in an interview on the BBC World Service yesterday:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01mtgtj
The segment begins at 27:40.
Good for her. She gets fiery and passionate. Pearl, IMO, hoists himself on his own petard. A Baptist minister also challenges Pearl on his 'traditional' views on child-rearing.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
The NT has a lot of stuff in it that oppressors used to justify pogroms, Crusades, witch burnings, and slavery.
Doesn't it tend to be the OT that is used (or, more correctly, mis-used, because I'm leery of sounding as if I'm anti-Judaism) to justify such horrors ...
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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien
Posts: 545 | From: The Shire | Registered: Jul 2012
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Pearl B4 Swine
Ship's Oyster-Shucker
# 11451
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Posted
Please note: I an not one of those Pearls.
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Oinkster
"I do a good job and I know how to do this stuff" D. Trump (speaking of the POTUS job)
Posts: 3622 | From: The Keystone State | Registered: May 2006
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
My ban list is as good as anyone else's. If the book in the OP is "A truly vile book that needs banning" and such bannificational endeavors actually occur, then the koran should be the first to be banned since it and Islam are offensive.
That, or we go with my first comment and ban nothing so that folks can make up their own minds.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Can I point out that following the advice in the book would be illegal in the UK and open the perpetrator up to charges of child abuse, assault and quite possibly one or two other things as well.
Is there grounds, therefore, for banning it not on the grounds of it being vile or offensive, but of it inciting criminal behaviour?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Karl: Liberal Backslider: Is there grounds, therefore, for banning it not on the grounds of it being vile or offensive, but of it inciting criminal behaviour?
That's what I was thinking about.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Is there grounds, therefore, for banning it not on the grounds of it being vile or offensive, but of it inciting criminal behaviour?
By that criteria the koran should be banned. You really want to go this route? The phone book will have to be banned, too. Ask Steve Martin.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Incitement is in the intention of the author. The intention of this particular author is quite clearly to encourage people to treat their children in a manner that is illegal under UK law. It's a bit harder to prove the intent of the author of the Koran, and blindingly stupid to attempt to prove criminal intent in the author of the phone book.
[ 13. December 2013, 14:51: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Blindingly stupid describes Mere Nick's position on the Koran.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
I'm not in favor of book-banning. As already noted, it's generally counter-productive.
OTOH, I would hope that each new printing could be greeted with solid evidence from reputable researchers like Murray Straus that violence directed at children in an effort to "correct" misbehavior actually seems to produce more misbehavior. This is why "punishment" can lead fairly readily to abuse; both the misbehavior and the "punishment" keep escalating, and the parent-child relationship turns into a violent struggle for dominance.
What the Pearls advocate is simple "bullying" -- what else can you call it when a larger, stronger, more powerful adult deliberately inflicts pain on a child?
I can't provide a link to this valuable article by Straus (which has been backed by similar results by other researchers) because it's behind a subscription paywall in the journal Pediatrics.
I was raised by a parent who believed in instant absolute compliance, and who beat her female children often and severely -- with belts, chain link dog leashes, & other implements. (She didn't beat the boys, or if she did, it was before I came along). My sister suffered broken bones. I sustained bruising. She would do this in frenzied rages.
I've had years of therapy. Nevertheless, I don't procreate in part because I fear what I might do to any child I might produce and try to rear. My sister has one adopted child whom she subjected to beatings.
These Pearls need ongoing unmasking as the idiots they are, and as contributors to a culture of violence, and to yet another cultural trend of raising compliant sheep -- which, as we all know, leads to government by wolves.
[ 13. December 2013, 17:44: Message edited by: Porridge ]
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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moron
Shipmate
# 206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
I was raised by a parent who believed in instant absolute compliance, and who beat her female children often and severely -- with belts, chain link dog leashes, & other implements. (She didn't beat the boys, or if she did, it was before I came along). My sister suffered broken bones. I sustained bruising. She would do this in frenzied rages.
One of the things I very much appreciate about this place is if ever a victimized gay ex former lesbian male now on the right track liberal who used to be conservative is perceived useful one will almost certainly be paraded.
Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moron:
One of the things I very much appreciate about this place is if ever a victimized gay ex former lesbian male now on the right track liberal who used to be conservative is perceived useful one will almost certainly be paraded.
I think your Ship name is rather too flattering.
You have two people attest to the ill effects of an abusive upbringing, and the best you can manage is a sort of incoherent sneer.
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moron:
One of the things I very much appreciate about this place is if ever a victimized gay ex former lesbian male now on the right track liberal who used to be conservative is perceived useful one will almost certainly be paraded.
Using clearer, better punctuated English than that, I hope.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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And this is why kids will continue to get beaten, because people are so invested in pointing out how much worse other people are that they won't call their own people to task.
What the average Muslim does about violent passages in the Koran is up to his/ her own conscience. What I, as a Christian do about people using the words of my faith to promote harm of other people is very much my own business.
[ 13. December 2013, 20:31: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
And this is why kids will continue to get beaten, because people are so invested in pointing out how much worse other people are that they won't call their own people to task.
What the average Muslim does about violent passages in the Koran is up to his/ her own conscience. What I, as a Christian do about people using the words of my faith to promote harm of other people is very much my own business.
Sorry, Kelly, but the mote-beam problem's only part of the issue. The other is leaving abuse up to individual conscience. On behalf of victims of violence, we're ALL responsible for calling out anybody who bullies kids or spouses when we learn of the abuse. Victims continue to be beaten when we leave things up to the individual to alter -- or not -- his/her own behavior.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Incitement is in the intention of the author. The intention of this particular author is quite clearly to encourage people to treat their children in a manner that is illegal under UK law. It's a bit harder to prove the intent of the author of the Koran, and blindingly stupid to attempt to prove criminal intent in the author of the phone book.
Not that long ago I was asked to arrange the interment of ashes in a churchyard. The next of kin was a Baptist and he was clearly respecting mums wishes who was C of E. I managed to sort everything out to his satisfaction. He mentioned that his wife, who was a child protection officer and also a Baptist had needed to have a word with a pastor (Not Baptist) who had preached a spare the rod spoil the child type of sermon. So, in the UK, it's probably a bad idea to assume violence against children is a bad thing.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
And this is why kids will continue to get beaten, because people are so invested in pointing out how much worse other people are that they won't call their own people to task.
What the average Muslim does about violent passages in the Koran is up to his/ her own conscience. What I, as a Christian do about people using the words of my faith to promote harm of other people is very much my own business.
Sorry, Kelly, but the mote-beam problem's only part of the issue. The other is leaving abuse up to individual conscience. On behalf of victims of violence, we're ALL responsible for calling out anybody who bullies kids or spouses when we learn of the abuse. Victims continue to be beaten when we leave things up to the individual to alter -- or not -- his/her own behavior.
I'm equally sorry, but that has nothing to do with whether a person is Muslim or Christian-- and is more or less part of the exact point I was making. Why are we getting into the Next Crusade when the safety of kids is at stake? WHo cares which fringe faction for which religion distorts what? People who know the damage that physical abuse does need to speak the hell up, period.
The Koran tangent is exactly that-- a tangent serving to comfortably skirt us around an uncomfortable subject. We all have mote and beam issues but we all also have decent people who are capable of raising their voices.
[ 14. December 2013, 03:02: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
I don't think any book should be banned, but anyone following the instructions of this book should be punished severely and publically for child abuse in a way that edifies other people reading the book and thinking of following its advice. The Pearls advise using flexible plumbing supply line in addition to switches.
Cases like this almost (but not quite) make me agree with Judge Scalia that it's too bad Constitutional Originalism has given up on restoring public whipping as a punishment. Long prison sentences until the children are safely adults is a good treatment.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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