Thread: Christmas Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.
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Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
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Calling the unrealistic expectations that surround Christmas to Hell.
And all us who get suckered into the great commercial hype and actually expect that:
- we will all be surrounded by our wonderful loving family - and all those children in care, single older people are really not feeling distraught that everyone else is having an amazing Christmas;
- our dysfunctional families can sit in harmony for a day - they can't for the rest of the year when there are other things to distract them, why should they manage at Christmas when nothing is open?
- we can buy the perfect present for that dissatisfied child who hates everything, that this time they will be delighted with our offering, and not sneer or throw a tantrum;
- this time copious amounts of alcohol will make everyone mellow and there will be no shouting and fighting as has happened the last 10 years;
- we will be able to afford to create this monstrosity and not spend the rest of the year paying it off/saving for next year
- the whole world celebrates Christmas - when why should Muslims, Jews, Sikhs ...
This is more written in dread before spending the week working with troubled teenagers, many of whom are Jewish, Muslim and otherwise not Christian, and a number are in care. So far the place has been trashed several times, the last time in response to someone who has obviously bought into the myths putting up decorations.
Personally, it has been so much better since I cancelled Christmas a few years ago (we were living in a hostel for the homeless that year) and gave myself permission not to attempt recreate this mythical Christmas ever again. And this year I'm ticking a number of things off my bucket list.
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
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I blame Charles Dickens.
Posted by Amika (# 15785) on
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Yep, I just find Christmas seriously depressing. Our family only 'does' it to the extent that we have a meal together and buy one another inexpensive gifts. Even then, though, we're left feeling we're missing out on all the fun everyone else is supposed to be having.
When I go home after eating my (ordinary with no incredible trimmings) Christmas dinner to my lonely house and crap Christmas telly I wonder why my experience is so bleak. But maybe I'm wrong and everyone else is just pretending.
Could it be that most people wonder where all that 'magic' is that everyone keeps going on about?
Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on
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What exactly is wrong with a family meal and presents ? What were you expecting, magic pants ?
(And what compels you to have a really plain meal ?)
[ 15. December 2013, 17:31: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on
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Out with the Santa-believing years, I can't remember an enjoyable Christmas. Tedious at best, when not actively depressive. My SiL summed it up as a child when she said she preferred Boxing Day, because then you didn't have to be happy.
Posted by Spike (# 36) on
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Well, I DO enjoy Christmas. I enjoy going to church to celebrate the incarnation of our Lord. I enjoy spending time with the family. I enjoy the food & drink. I enjoy giving and receiving presents. I enjoy taking some time off work I enjoy looking back over the year and thanking God it wasn't nearly as bad as it could have been.
If you don't enjoy it, that's entirely up to you, but please stop bleating on about it.
[ 15. December 2013, 17:54: Message edited by: Spike ]
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
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So because you enjoy Christmas it's right to insist that everyone else does, including kids in care, children in homes where there will be no Christmas meal or presents this year? And two weeks without the support and food at school.
It wasn't Christmas I was calling to Hell but the unrealistic expectations that make it a difficult time for so many people.
Posted by Spike (# 36) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
So because you enjoy Christmas it's right to insist that everyone else does, including kids in care, children in homes where there will be no Christmas meal or presents this year? And two weeks without the support and food at school.
Where did I say that?
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
If you don't enjoy it, that's entirely up to you, but please stop bleating on about it.
This bit here says to shut about not enjoying Christmas. Which was a complete misreading of the OP, which was never about my enjoyment or lack of it, but the way the unrealistic expectations add to the challenges many people face at this time of year.
Where did I say you couldn't enjoy Christmas?
Posted by Pooks (# 11425) on
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CK, as far as I am concerned, only two of of the six expectations that you have listed in the OP are 'I hope so, but we'll see.' in my book. The rest I am perfectly happy to leave well alone. However, given the context of the people that you have to work with, I can see how Christmas can be a real bitch for some.
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Personally, it has been so much better since I cancelled Christmas a few years ago (we were living in a hostel for the homeless that year) and gave myself permission not to attempt recreate this mythical Christmas ever again. And this year I'm ticking a number of things off my bucket list.
I don't know how you 'cancel' Christmas, because whether you choose to celebrate it or not, it is a religious marker in the calendar that is known in many parts of the world. I think Christmas is a time that brings both the best and the worst out of people. Even as you see the worst aspect of what Christmas can bring, there are others who are serving as a good example of what the Christmas spirit should produce. Personally, I wouldn't cancel Christmas, but I know I also don't walk in your shoes. What I don't understand is why are you posting in Hell if things have been so much better for you since you cancelled Christmas? Are you suggesting that we should all do the same?
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
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Why here? Because I read the Blue Christmas thread and the prayers on the prayer thread from people struggling with Christmas.
And, yes, there are alternatives. For ten of the last twelve years I've helped at church services (Crib Service, Midnight Mass) and at a midday meal for people who'd otherwise be on their own on Christmas Day.
Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on
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Notably not wishing to be alone and sans Christmassy stuff - otherwise why would you be doing the meal ?
Posted by Taliesin (# 14017) on
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Bit like my thread on phones, really. If you've had a lovely relationship with BT ever since Alexander Graham said 'hallo' down the wire, don't join me on a ranty thread about hating bastard phone companies.
Similarly, if you have a lovely cosy Christmas in a loving church and family, possibly in a snow covered village but equally on a busy city street, don't join CK in her heartfelt rant about hopeless expectations. Move on. Hey.
Posted by Spike (# 36) on
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And if you want sympathy, don't post in Hell
Posted by Barefoot Friar (# 13100) on
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I love Christmas. I like midnight services on Christmas Eve. I like to spend time with my family. I like to give gifts (although I'd prefer to receive time spent together rather than gifts in return). I like all the stuff that happens at church. I'm planning to go to church on Christmas morning this year -- the first time I've done that, aside from the years Christmas falls on a Sunday.
I hate Christmas. I worked five seasons in retail selling shoes, and that was five seasons too many. I hate the greed, the sense of entitlement, and the rudeness that comes along with it. I hate to see families fighting on Christmas Day -- can they not put aside their disagreements for one damned day and be nice to each other? And if not, then why do they insist on getting together, hoping that this year will be different from all the others? Why subject themselves to that? I hate to see people spend more than they can afford to try to please some person that cannot be pleased, or to try to out-give the others in some weird power struggle. I hate to hear about people being trampled to death on the day after Thanksgiving to get some doodad or whatzit that isn't really that great of a deal and that really isn't worth dying for. Having worked five of those days, I think the whole damned thing is stupid.
I celebrate the first holiday. I refuse to take part in the second. I am extremely fortunate, and I look for ways to help those who are not. It's a crying shame, really.
Posted by Pooks (# 11425) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Why here? Because I read the Blue Christmas thread and the prayers on the prayer thread from people struggling with Christmas.
That could be understood in different ways, but I won't dig any further.
quote:
And, yes, there are alternatives. For ten of the last twelve years I've helped at church services (Crib Service, Midnight Mass) and at a midday meal for people who'd otherwise be on their own on Christmas Day.
I had you down as someone who would do these things in church, that's why I can't understand why you would only look at the negative side of Christmas, while completely ignoring in your OP the good that others have done for one another. Anyway, thanks for the explanation.
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
This bit here says to shut about not enjoying Christmas. Which was a complete misreading of the OP, which was never about my enjoyment or lack of it, but the way the unrealistic expectations add to the challenges many people face at this time of year.
There's nothing wrong with expecting good things to happen at Christmas, and those expectations are not unrealistic. I get that for some people it doesn't happen, and that sucks, but the solution is not to say that because of those people nobody should expect good things to happen.
You may as well say that because some children are dyslexic and really struggle to learn to read and write we shouldn't expect any children to learn to read and write.
Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on
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I love Christmas, but what I love about are the carols, the fire on as the wind howls, the little bit of peace from traffic, the stillness in the air (even in a city), the church services, the lights, the colours and smells; all that type of thing.
What I hate about Christmas is the expense, the expense and the expense; and fuck me is it expensive. Part of it is my job, but I totally get what CK is getting at, the expectation has gone up a hundred fold. I know there are those who would say, 'Oh but you don't have to go to such expense', but that's not really true for some people, and for those suckered into having to have everything right by the media, their credit card bill by the end of December can make the Greek debt look paltry. Maybe they are fools taken in and maybe I'm a fool for falling in line, but the weight of social expectation to 'do Christmas right' has most certainly ratcheted up to almost ridiculous proportions in the last few years. I can understand why this is the case - in a recession any business is going to go hell for leather to make you spent your last cent on their product.
Posted by Molopata The Rebel (# 9933) on
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Yes, the expense.
Before the little Molopatas came along, Mr & Ms Molopata agreed they would have a low-profile & back-to-basics celebration with no presents. But now the small ones have arrived, they have been overwhelmed by the onslaught of dotting god- & grandparents who have obliterated the noble intentions with an incessant barrage of presents.
And that's before you've factored in the expectations raised by talking to other children at school.
And of course, given the social rules of reciprocation, the Molopatas are compelled to respond in kind.
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
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quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
What I hate about Christmas is the expense, the expense and the expense; and fuck me is it expensive.
It doesn't have to be.
I buy my nieces lots of little presents throughout the year. Nothing my purse even notices. Then, at present wrapping time I have as much fun wrapping them as they do opening them. (No they are not kids - both are over 30!)
I am very much in the 'Blue Christmas' camp this year with Mum fading slowly but it doesn't stop me doing the usual things, I find them comforting.
At Church we do a Christmas dinner/party for those who would otherwise be alone. This includes younger people, who help. It's a good way to spend the day. Usually I give just an hour or two, having family commitments, but this year I'll be there for most of the 'do'.
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on
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I think that expectations belong in hell too, along with the new furniture which can still be delivered in time; the dreadful frozen concoctions to serve up to our loved ones; the pressure on parents to buy and provide a dream for their children however much debt it puts them into (or be accused of neglect); and the 'must get drunk' myth.
By experience, the best Christmasses have been better than I could have hoped because I have been uplifted in spirit: by smiling faces and kind words from strangers; by children and adults who were genuinely delighted by the presents they received; by people singing carols in the street or on the doorstep; by a meal saved up for, whose ingredients I could not usually afford to buy; and, now that I appreciate it, by the religious festival and all that happens in the Church.
Posted by piglet (# 11803) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
Well, I DO enjoy Christmas. I enjoy going to church to celebrate the incarnation of our Lord. I enjoy spending time with the family. I enjoy the food & drink. I enjoy giving and receiving presents. I enjoy taking some time off work I enjoy looking back over the year and thanking God it wasn't nearly as bad as it could have been.
If you don't enjoy it, that's entirely up to you, but please stop bleating on about it.
Well said, Spike.
Because of geographical factors and our own church commitments (cathedral organists and singers don't get Christmas Day off ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
), being with family for Christmas hasn't been an option* for us for many years.
We'll spend the morning in church; the afternoon drinking GIN, opening presents, phoning family and friends back home and dozing off; and the evening eating far too much with friends here.
What's not to like?
* D's well past the stage of feeling pissed off when people ask him "are you going home for Christmas?". ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on
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posted by Boogie:
quote:
It doesn't have to be.
Unfortunately it does in some cases. I was referring to adults rather than children. We talk about the expectation of children a lot, but generally speaking, children might huff for a bit if they don't get what they want, whereas adults have a long and vindictive memory and in many ways I think the expectation among adults is actually much higher than among children. Among adults the social pressure is enormous; whether it be to splash out at the expensive restaurant for the Christmas work do, the keeping up with the Jonzes with the best toys the kids all asked for, the small gifts for people you barely know or even dislike, the Christmas 'nibbles' that everyone expects to be a drunken feast, and so on and so on. Fail to take heed of these expectations and you can easily end up a social pariah. I acknowledge that there are many who have never had to face these issues, and good for them, long may it continue, but for others it's nothing more than a debt laced curse.
Posted by Francophile (# 17838) on
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Maybe I'm simplistic because I have never celebrated Christmas in a big way. Not ignored it, but kept it low key. Maybe easier to do in Scotland. Within living memory, businesses were open and people, certainly men, went to work on Christmas Day with an early finish about 1pm or 2pm to get home for a festive meal. The festive meal might be a steak pie, or for the more monied a capon from the local fishmonger shop. Pudding was a clootie dumpling. That was about it.
I suggest:
Keep it low key. Don't have high expectations.Enjoy the time off work, if you can. Enjoy good company, if you can. Eat and drink in moderation. Exchange small presents with adult close relatives and friends. No more tha £5 each. Spend money on kids, but again keep it reasonable. Go to church, if that's your thing. Get out into the fresh air. Escape to the hills on Boxing Day, if you can. Try to get back to work before New Year. Don't spend money st the Sales. Know that you have enough "stuff" and believe it. Prize enjoying "time", whether with people or on your own. Being with people is overrated! Read a book, walk the dog, go swimming, play a game of tennis. Look forward to the longer days after 21 December. Spring is only 3 months away. Appreciate the simple things. Be glad to be alive and living in freedom. Be glad that we have enough to eat (or most of us do).
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
And if you want sympathy, don't post in Hell
You are typically more perspicacious, Spike.
ISTM, this is more about the effect hype has on the vulnerable. Is this not a Hell worthy topic?
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
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Thank you lilBuddha - that's what it was meant to be about.
Francophile - I'll tell you what, you can go and talk to the Autistic Spectrum teenagers I will be seeing tomorrow and tell them that the media and the shops playing Christmas songs and the adverts on the TV and Dickens and folklore have all got it wrong, you know the best way. I can't see it going well.
And for the rest of you defending your church going practices, I have nowhere attacked the religious festival of Christmas, just the secular accretions that are all of Christmas most people see.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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I'm a bit resentful towards the churches for buying into the popular hype around Christmas. We tell ourselves that 'Jesus is the reason for the season' and that Easter is more important, but I think the process of secularisation has made us desperate to hang on to one of the few popular representations of vaguely Christian spirituality that still speaks to the culture. There's something rather craven about it.
At my old church I was uneasy at how on Christmas morning children were encouraged to go to the front and wave their newly acquired Christmas presents about, as though Christianity encouraged materialism. And there's something about huge, decorated Christmas trees that increasingly disturbs me, especially the ones in churches. Today I walked past a Baptist church that has a massive one you could see lit up through the window. It seems odd for a church to make such a big deal of a symbol that's not Christian without any attempt to christianise it.
Churches want to be seen as part of the fun, and despite the odd word against materialism and debt they don't have anything to say about a 'Christian' celebration that emphasises family division and leads to stress, a peak in divorce rates, gluttony and drunkenness, and parties that increase the likelihood of infidelity and STDs.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Posted by Graven Image (# 8755) on
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I find that most of the TV, media and such has no relationship to my real life, so why should Christmas be any different? I think it is important for young people to understand that there is life, and there is the media and one is not usually true. That is true about things other then Christmas, and so my princess Prince Charming is most likely not going to come and rescue you. Better plan to get an education and a job.
Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on
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Most vulnerablepeople I know, and given my day job is with vulnerable people that's a lot, would be well pissed off if some sort of festive effort wasn't made around Christmas. From the autistic guy with the specially arranged trip off the ward to the wrestling to the 18yr old with the leaving care team getting an extra £50 from the social services because its Christmas.
Sure they won't have the perfect Christmas, nor the family time they would want if they could - but they still want to be part of it and a part of that is the tv schmaltz and the tinzle.
(And people who are crap at budgeting are generally crap at it all year round, likewise folk guilted into stuff are generally guilted into it at other times too - I don'y think Christmas specifically is the cause.)
[ 16. December 2013, 22:39: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on
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I dislike Christmas. It brings back memories of family tensions.
I have no problem with those who want to celebrate with their own family but Christmas is the holiday that won't leave you alone. Thanks to Dickens, as mentioned above, you're not allowed to say "none for me thank you" and you face an endless string of presumptions that you are Christian and want to hear badly orchestrated Christmas songs from Halloween till January to encourage you to buy more.
I usually try to stay out of stores after thanksgiving except for a run to a bookstore to get a stack of books to read over the forced time off. This year I am slightly tempted to go to a social event. The film society is showing a sing along version of Fiddler on the Roof, with a free Chinese food buffet to commemorate the Jewish custom of going out for Chinese food on Christmas day. Other than that, I'll stay home and try to ignore it.
Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on
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I heard recently that half of annual retail income comes from the 6 weeks before Christmas. Folks, it's your civic duty to keep the economy running by spending as much money as you can, on as much useless shit as you can lay your hands on.
Posted by NJA (# 13022) on
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Queues everywhere with a get out of my way attitude, "Merry Christmas".
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Francophile - I'll tell you what, you can go and talk to the Autistic Spectrum teenagers I will be seeing tomorrow and tell them that the media and the shops playing Christmas songs and the adverts on the TV and Dickens and folklore have all got it wrong, you know the best way. I can't see it going well.
Maybe because they're not wrong. The folklore, Dickens and songs are presenting an accurate picture of (part of) what Christmas should be about. That it's not like that for many people is sad, but it doesn't change the basic fact.
Honestly, is there any other situation where people try to completely change societal expectations because some people don't or can't live up to them? Do we stop expecting that people should be healthy because some are ill? Do we stop expecting that people should have the right to vote because some live in dictatorships? Do we stop expecting that people should be free from abuse because some are being abused? No, of course we bloody don't - the very idea is idiotic. Why then should we stop expecting that people should have a happy and celebratory Christmas with the ones they love just because some people don't have that?
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Churches want to be seen as part of the fun, and despite the odd word against materialism and debt they don't have anything to say about a 'Christian' celebration that emphasises family division and leads to stress, a peak in divorce rates, gluttony and drunkenness, and parties that increase the likelihood of infidelity and STDs.
Maybe because Christmas doesn't emphasise those things.
Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
(And people who are crap at budgeting are generally crap at it all year round, likewise folk guilted into stuff are generally guilted into it at other times too - I don'y think Christmas specifically is the cause.)
My experience - in dealing with current accounts and mortgage arrears - is that January was always the worst month for both. Too many people spent too much at Christmas and spent the year paying until next Christmas and then .....
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on
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Marvin: quote:
Honestly, is there any other situation where people try to completely change societal expectations because some people don't or can't live up to them?
You must have missed the annual thread bitching about Mother's Day...
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Churches want to be seen as part of the fun, and despite the odd word against materialism and debt they don't have anything to say about a 'Christian' celebration that emphasises family division and leads to stress, a peak in divorce rates, gluttony and drunkenness, and parties that increase the likelihood of infidelity and STDs.
Maybe because Christmas doesn't emphasise those things.
Not in theological terms, no. But most people celebrate Christmas as a primarily secular festival.
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Not in theological terms, no. But most people celebrate Christmas as a primarily secular festival.
Even so, the things you mention aren't emphasised as part of it. Well, except for eating and drinking, which are perfectly good things.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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Marvin the Martian
My point is that the Christmas season, as experienced in our culture, does lead to the prevalence of the activities or sentiments I've mentioned.
http://www.epsom-sthelier.nhs.uk/news/news-archive/2012/december-2012/safer-sex-christmas-message-for-party-goers/
http://www.ivillage.co.uk/tis-the-season-have-affair/141143
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/ianmcowie/100021921/divorce-a-merry-christmas-now-and-a-split-in-the-new-year/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16131013
I'm sure you could find more information about the problems exacerbated by Christmas celebrations in our society. My thought is that the clergy shouldn't limit themselves to expounding on what Christmas should be about, but should refer to these problems, because they represent real lived experience.
Sometimes I think it might be healthier, emotionally and spiritually, for a lot of people not to bother. Jesus doesn't need all this mess in his name.
Posted by Spike (# 36) on
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So why single out Christmas? This is all behaviour frequently displayed by some people in certain holiday resorts in the summer. Does that make summer holidays an intrinsically bad thing?
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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It's the church that singles out Christmas, not me!
I think it would be best for the church not to seem so eager to buy into a festival that's now so clearly a secular occasion in most people's minds. We've reached the point where the religious element is a bolt-on. Maybe it was always so in popular culture, but it's definitely the case now.
I don't know if there's much point in the church so obviously competing in a competition that it's unlikely to win.
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on
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So what, if the religious aspects of a festival get taken over by secular festivities the religion should just abandon it? I think not.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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The way we celebrate Christmas now is a fairly recent invention, of course. Thanks to Alistair McGrath's 'Christianity: An Introduction' on Googlebooks I note that the 1662 Prayer Book had no provision for Christmas as a special celebration. Christmas was institutionalised as a national festival in the 19th c. The nine lessons and carols service is late Victorian and acquired its current format in 1918.
In other words, the idea that Christmas has to be celebrated with great fanfare by the churches is hardly carved in stone. The times dictate everything. But I concede that my reading of the times will differ from other people's.
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on
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Svitlana: quote:
We've reached the point where the religious element is a bolt-on.
Maybe in your church. In mine we will be celebrating the Incarnation of Our Lord as usual, thanks very much all the same.
I don't see 'the religious element' as a bolt-on at all. And I don't see what everyone else does has to do with it either. Should we give up celebrating Easter as well, to avoid confusion with chocolate eggs and the Easter bunny?
Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on
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quote:
Among adults the social pressure is enormous; whether it be to splash out at the expensive restaurant for the Christmas work do, the keeping up with the Jonzes with the best toys the kids all asked for, the small gifts for people you barely know or even dislike, the Christmas 'nibbles' that everyone expects to be a drunken feast, and so on and so on.
Mr Christian, do I remember you as living in the Republic of Ireland?
My Irish inlaws do a bit of this, all year round. When I take the piss out of them for overdoing hospitality (and, 15 years in, I'm still stupid enough to try to crack those jokes) they look at me like I'm making jokes about wanking over the Christmas pudding. There really does seem to be something very deep and not-to-be-mocked there about laying it all on for guests, taking stuff with you when you're a guest...the shame around not joining in and buying your (huge, huger than huge fuck-off) round still surprises me.
I get partly out of it by being the family tight-English-cunt, and partly out of it by being the family religiously-a-bit-too-enthusiastic-prod. I can see how a lack of such solid excuses could make abstinence a bit tricky.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Svitlana: quote:
We've reached the point where the religious element is a bolt-on.
Maybe in your church. In mine we will be celebrating the Incarnation of Our Lord as usual, thanks very much all the same.
FWIW, it would be interesting to know how your church celebrated Christmas, say, 300 years ago. It was probably a bit different.
On Christmas day does your church invite the kids to tell everyone about their Christmas presents?I'd be very happy to know that that only happened at my old church!
Posted by Francophile (# 17838) on
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Svitlana: quote:
We've reached the point where the religious element is a bolt-on.
Maybe in your church. In mine we will be celebrating the Incarnation of Our Lord as usual, thanks very much all the same.
FWIW, it would be interesting to know how your church celebrated Christmas, say, 300 years ago. It was probably a bit different.
On Christmas day does your church invite the kids to tell everyone about their Christmas presents?I'd be very happy to know that that only happened at my old church!
Sorry to report that your church is not alone in that Svitlana. I put it down to the Idolisation of Family and Idolisation of Children which churchianity engages in. Keep the kids and mums and dads happy, and hey presto you have a Church! Why not just hand out tickets to the current Disney film st the local multiplex and save money on heating the church building.
[ 17. December 2013, 17:36: Message edited by: Francophile ]
Posted by Kitten (# 1179) on
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All the Churches I have attended have done this, I'm sure they disapproved of my family for not participating but, as I explained each year, we do not open our presents until the afternoon
Posted by piglet (# 11803) on
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quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
... There really does seem to be something very deep and not-to-be-mocked there about laying it all on for guests, taking stuff with you when you're a guest ...
That would explain the similar practice that we've found here in Newfoundland, where there is a lot of Irish influence. If you're asked to someone's house for supper, you'd say "what would you like me to bring?", and although the host/hostess might say, "just bring yourselves", you'll probably bring something anyway ...
Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
I dislike Christmas. It brings back memories of family tensions.
I have no problem with those who want to celebrate with their own family but Christmas is the holiday that won't leave you alone. Thanks to Dickens, as mentioned above, you're not allowed to say "none for me thank you" and you face an endless string of presumptions that you are Christian and want to hear badly orchestrated Christmas songs from Halloween till January to encourage you to buy more.
I usually try to stay out of stores after thanksgiving except for a run to a bookstore to get a stack of books to read over the forced time off. This year I am slightly tempted to go to a social event. The film society is showing a sing along version of Fiddler on the Roof, with a free Chinese food buffet to commemorate the Jewish custom of going out for Chinese food on Christmas day. Other than that, I'll stay home and try to ignore it.
Which means you don't create any new memories to replace them, and given Christmas will happen every year for the rest of your life - how does this strategy help you ?
Just like phobias - avoidance just creates a viscious cycle.
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on
:
Svitlana: quote:
FWIW, it would be interesting to know how your church celebrated Christmas, say, 300 years ago. It was probably a bit different.
As we now use Common Worship it was certainly different; Common Worship has only been in use for about a decade. Nobody ate turkey for Christmas dinner in the Middle Ages either and mince pies really did contain minced meat. During the Commonwealth, Christmas was an ordinary working day and everyone was forbidden to celebrate it (which led to riots in some places). Why should that mean we have to give up celebrating Christmas in church completely?
No, our church does not invite children to the front to show everyone their Christmas presents. It is not a universal custom.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
So why single out Christmas?
looks at the calender, looks at Spike, looks back at the calender, looks back at Spike
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Svitlana: quote:
FWIW, it would be interesting to know how your church celebrated Christmas, say, 300 years ago. It was probably a bit different.
As we now use Common Worship it was certainly different; Common Worship has only been in use for about a decade. Nobody ate turkey for Christmas dinner in the Middle Ages either and mince pies really did contain minced meat. During the Commonwealth, Christmas was an ordinary working day and everyone was forbidden to celebrate it (which led to riots in some places). Why should that mean we have to give up celebrating Christmas in church completely?
No, our church does not invite children to the front to show everyone their Christmas presents. It is not a universal custom.
I didn't say that churches should give up celebrating Christmas completely. The issue is with what we do and how and why we do it. The vibes are ambiguous, at least to me.
The fuss we make over Christmas these days reminds me of the obligation people feel to spend tens of thousands of pounds on their wedding. Does it mean we love Jesus (or our new spouse) more than people did centuries ago? I don't think so, somehow.
I'm very glad to hear that the kiddies who attend your church at Christmas aren't too indulged by the presiding minister!
One more question about Christmas services: has anyone ever had to sing 'Happy Birthday' to Jesus on Christmas day? It is just me or is that a bit cheesy??
Posted by Spike (# 36) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
One more question about Christmas services: has anyone ever had to sing 'Happy Birthday' to Jesus on Christmas day? It is just me or is that a bit cheesy??
If my church were to anything as naff as that, I'd be looking for a new church.
And FTR, we don't get the kids up,to show off their presents either. In fact, I've never seen that at any church I've attended.
Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
... There really does seem to be something very deep and not-to-be-mocked there about laying it all on for guests, taking stuff with you when you're a guest ...
quote:
Originally posted by piglet:
That would explain the similar practice that we've found here in Newfoundland, where there is a lot of Irish influence. If you're asked to someone's house for supper, you'd say "what would you like me to bring?", and although the host/hostess might say, "just bring yourselves", you'll probably bring something anyway ...
...and if you didn't, would you somehow pick up the message that, socially speaking, you had shat yourself and were still insisting on sitting on the cream sofa?
Do the practices run so deep that it makes spontaneous social interaction difficult, or so stressful and laden with unspoken ritual responsibilities, that one would rather let friendships wither then turn up unexpectedly when passing through an old friend's town?
Christmas just seems to ramp it even further, IME.
Posted by Francophile (# 17838) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
So why single out Christmas?
looks at the calender, looks at Spike, looks back at the calender, looks back at Spike
One for the Quotes File....if only I knew how to do it
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
On Christmas day does your church invite the kids to tell everyone about their Christmas presents?I'd be very happy to know that that only happened at my old church!
I'm happy to say I've never heard of this. Our main Christmas services are on Christmas Eve -- an early service which includes the Church School Christmas play, and a later (but not midnight) one with Choir, incense, etc. The much smaller Christmas morning service is mostly attended by the older folks who can't drive at night, or who prefer not to go out late.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
Pigwidgeon
That's interesting. In England the focus seems to be on Christmas Day morning, at least for families with children. The Christmas Eve services seem more adult. IME.
TBH, it's probably easier to buy into the excitement if you've got children or grandchildren, which isn't the case for me.
Posted by Francophile (# 17838) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Pigwidgeon
That's interesting. In England the focus seems to be on Christmas Day morning, at least for families with children. The Christmas Eve services seem more adult. IME.
TBH, it's probably easier to buy into the excitement if you've got children or grandchildren, which isn't the case for me.
I'm always relieved when it's over. I find that I cheer up as soon as January moves into gear. Christmas is very trying.
Posted by M. (# 3291) on
:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
The fuss we make over Christmas these days reminds me of the obligation people feel to spend tens of thousands of pounds on their wedding.
This is the bit I don't get. If anyone falls for the advertising - which is just trying to sell you stuff - then they only have themselves to blame. Why not just do it how you want, sod what anyone you're not involved with tells you.
I like Christmas too but I only do the bits I want.
M.
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
:
It's interesting that those saying that you can ignore advertising are, for the most part, not dealing with school-aged children.
I do know you can find a different way through Christmas, but for families with children and teenagers, there are expectations - all those lovely writing exercises on what I want for Christmas, what I got for Christmas, making Christmas decorations, Christmas activities, peer pressure and familial pressures to buy into this commercial Christmas.
Yes, I can and am bloody minded enough to do my own thing and ignore the expectations, but people's faces are usually pretty horrified when you're asked what you're doing for Christmas and it's not what they expect.
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
Don't let them get to you, CK. I think some of them are frustrated there's been no War on Christmas thread so they're whinging on this one.
Posted by M. (# 3291) on
:
CK:
quote:
Yes, I can and am bloody minded enough to do my own thing and ignore the expectations, but people's faces are usually pretty horrified when you're asked what you're doing for Christmas and it's not what they expect.
So? Why do you need to be bloody minded about it? It's just what you do or don't do, nothing else.
You're quite right I'm not dealing with school age children, though.
M.
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
:
Depends, rather, on how much bullying you're setting your child up for.
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on
:
Svitlana: quote:
I didn't say that churches should give up celebrating Christmas completely.
Then how are we supposed to interpret these remarks, made by you on the previous page?
quote:
I think it would be best for the church not to seem so eager to buy into a festival that's now so clearly a secular occasion in most people's minds. We've reached the point where the religious element is a bolt-on.
FWIW I agree that some of the secular aspects of the festival are overdone, and part of it is the same reason why people spend thousands of pounds on their wedding day; they think if that one day is perfect the rest of their life will be as well. But like M, I don't see why this should mean I can't do the stuff I want to do.
And Christmas doesn't create these problems of family discord; it just makes it harder to conceal the problems that are already there.
[ 18. December 2013, 08:04: Message edited by: Jane R ]
Posted by Spike (# 36) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by M.:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
The fuss we make over Christmas these days reminds me of the obligation people feel to spend tens of thousands of pounds on their wedding.
This is the bit I don't get. If anyone falls for the advertising - which is just trying to sell you stuff - then they only have themselves to blame. Why not just do it how you want, sod what anyone you're not involved with tells you.
I like Christmas too but I only do the bits I want.
M.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on
:
Piglet: quote:
If you're asked to someone's house for supper, you'd say "what would you like me to bring?", and although the host/hostess might say, "just bring yourselves", you'll probably bring something anyway ...
Am I the only one who really means it? When I invite people for a meal I expect to cook it myself. I have it all planned, all the food that goes with the other food and all in keeping with the space I have and the serving dishes in which to present it.
The very last thing I want is someone bustling importantly into my kitchen, right at crunch time, blocking my path to the stove or sink while they put the last minute touches on some big flashy dish they've brought along, interrupting my frazzled thought processes with requests for a nutmeg grater.
They're my beloved guests and they can damn well sit on the sofa in the living room and act like it!
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on
:
When I go to someone else's house for a meal, I certainly wouldn't take a contribution to the meal unless they asked me to - it suggests a lack of confidence in your host's cooking...
I might take along a small gift - chocolates or a bottle of wine - if it's a party.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Svitlana: quote:
I didn't say that churches should give up celebrating Christmas completely.
Then how are we supposed to interpret these remarks, made by you on the previous page?
quote:
I think it would be best for the church not to seem so eager to buy into a festival that's now so clearly a secular occasion in most people's minds. We've reached the point where the religious element is a bolt-on.
FWIW I agree that some of the secular aspects of the festival are overdone, and part of it is the same reason why people spend thousands of pounds on their wedding day; they think if that one day is perfect the rest of their life will be as well. But like M, I don't see why this should mean I can't do the stuff I want to do.
And Christmas doesn't create these problems of family discord; it just makes it harder to conceal the problems that are already there.
The paragraph you quoted doesn't say that the churches should reject Christmas! Churches can mark Jesus' birth respectfully and happily without seeming 'eager to buy into a festival', as I put it.
Admittedly, I do understand that institutional churches feel obliged to satisfy popular expectations at a time when they hope to draw as many seasonal or generally reluctant churchgoers through the door as possible, so despite what I've said above, I hardly expect them to change what they do. Perhaps churches that are very self-confident and well-attended throughout the year have a somewhat different approach. I don't know, but it would be interesting to find out.
Let's end by agreeing with each other: it's a free country and individuals should just do what they jolly well like at Christmas!
Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Depends, rather, on how much bullying you're setting your child up for.
Depends on the school. The Tubblet’s school does plays, makes Christmas decorations etc, but there’s less emphasis on “what I got”, “what I did” and “what I want”. Some teachers realise that not everyone is in a position to do much at Christmas anymore and don’t want to create opportunities for children to be singled out by others because they’re “different”.
TBH, I wonder if some of this is projection … People think that they should be x, y and z at Christmas and then when they don’t, assume that the rest of the world is looking down at them in some way. Nine times out of ten, rest of the world either isn’t that bothered or may think that having a quieter time or helping at the Night Shelter is a cool idea. As for the one out ten, well they’re likely to be the sort of person you didn’t want to impress anyway!
Like others, we do the bits we like and ignore the rest of it. We go and see family as some of them are old and frail so our future Christmases with them are limited. Christmas doesn’t make us love them anymore or any less.
We try and make sure that God remains at the centre of things … My church doesn’t do a Christmas Eve service, but it does do a short family service on Christmas Day. People are encouraged to bring presents if they’ve opened them by then to show, but it’s no big deal if they don’t. We don’t open our presents until the afternoon either.
We work out who we’re buying for, set a budget for that and the food / drink and then try and stick to it. We’re trying to teach the Tubblet that you have the Christmas you can afford rather than the one you end up paying for all year!
Tubbs
Posted by Francophile (# 17838) on
:
I'm genuinely confused by this thread.
I thought it was calling unrealistic expectations of Christmas to hell.
The OP was not specifically about children's or teenagers' unrealistic expectations. Apart from the mention of children in care under the first bullet point about families, the expectations listed were adult expectations.
The only way to solve the problem is to keep expectations low, or at least reasonable.
To be constructive, I offered suggestions on keeping expectations low but nevertheless enjoying the Season.
I was decried for that and invited to speak to teenagers with autism about Christmas expectations.
I have no experience of teenagers with autism and wouldn't presume to know how to speak to them.
If I had realised that the thread wad about the expectations of such teenagers, I would not have commented.
Dealing with the expectations of children and teenagers is clearly a subtopic of dealing with expectations on general.
Maybe we're getting confused and ratty with each other because some of us didn't realise that we are dealing with children and teenagers.
[ 18. December 2013, 13:12: Message edited by: Francophile ]
Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Calling the unrealistic expectations that surround Christmas to Hell.
Couldn't agree more!
People expected me to have my Christmas tree up ages ago and it's seven days to go and it's still not up!.
Society expects FAR too much these days.
The good news is that its only taken me 12 years to get a nativity scene.
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
:
I have stopped worrying too much about other people's expectations full stop.
That doesn't mean I act selfishly, it just means I choose what good I do.
You can't be all things to all people, so there's no point in trying to be.
My family spend a lot of time caring for our old folks all year round - that doesn't get any better or worse at Christmas.
At school we emphasise the 'we' over the 'I' all year round. At Christmas we give the children the best parties etc that we can manage. Well aware that, for some, it is the only special time they will have.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I was uneasy at how on Christmas morning children were encouraged to go to the front and wave their newly acquired Christmas presents about, as though Christianity encouraged materialism.
My concerns are more about the possible disparity between the children who have received "big" presents and those who have not - although, in general, parents have always encouraged them to bring "token" presents to church.
I have actually tried to kill this practice in our church - but it is the parents who resist all attempts to do so!
Posted by Spike (# 36) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
People expected me to have my Christmas tree up ages ago and it's seven days to go and it's still not up!.
You must know some pretty weird people. Nobody has ever told me when or whether to put the tree up.
Mine's not up either. It never goes up until a few days before Christmas.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I was uneasy at how on Christmas morning children were encouraged to go to the front and wave their newly acquired Christmas presents about, as though Christianity encouraged materialism.
My concerns are more about the possible disparity between the children who have received "big" presents and those who have not - although, in general, parents have always encouraged them to bring "token" presents to church.
I have actually tried to kill this practice in our church - but it is the parents who resist all attempts to do so!
Yes. Sadly, I don't think a Christmas Day service is necessarily a good place to be if you're a child who hasn't had (or doesn't expect to have) some nice presents. Such children are unlikely to be there anyway, but it must be a bit awkward in a church with a broad social mix.
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on
:
Svitlana: quote:
The paragraph you quoted doesn't say that the churches should reject Christmas! Churches can mark Jesus' birth respectfully and happily without seeming 'eager to buy into a festival...'
Well, the paragraph I quoted referred to the religious element of Christmas as a 'bolt-on' and said that churches shouldn't encourage the festival. That could certainly be interpreted as a suggestion that churches shouldn't celebrate Christmas at all.
It may come as a shock to you, but some Christians really don't celebrate Christmas. The ban on Christmas during the Commonwealth has already been mentioned. Some former neighbours of ours refused to put up any Christmas decorations at all (though I think they bowed to social pressure and got presents for their children). They had some Christmas lights, which they put up on their children's birthdays instead.
And that's fine. If they don't want to celebrate it, they don't have to. Nobody has to. You can even point out that the tree is a pagan symbol imported from Germany and the lights waste electricity and if you want a new jumper it would be easier just to buy one you like instead of having to feign enthusiasm for one your aunt bought you that's the wrong colour and two sizes too big.
Just don't expect me to join in. The Prince of Peace is born! Some show of enthusiasm on the part of the church is entirely appropriate.
And I've got all this Christmas pudding in the cupboard that has been maturing for a month. It would be a shame to waste it.
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Francophile:
Maybe we're getting confused and ratty with each other because some of us didn't realise that we are dealing with children and teenagers.
Hell is the home of the confused and ratty.
Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I was uneasy at how on Christmas morning children were encouraged to go to the front and wave their newly acquired Christmas presents about, as though Christianity encouraged materialism.
My concerns are more about the possible disparity between the children who have received "big" presents and those who have not - although, in general, parents have always encouraged them to bring "token" presents to church.
I have actually tried to kill this practice in our church - but it is the parents who resist all attempts to do so!
Each church I’ve gone to has encouraged children to bring stocking presents to church and most clergy avoided asking what else you'd got … That said, it’s always made clear that going up to show your present is entirely voluntary. The Tubblet has always refused to take part.
Tubbs
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Svitlana: quote:
The paragraph you quoted doesn't say that the churches should reject Christmas! Churches can mark Jesus' birth respectfully and happily without seeming 'eager to buy into a festival...'
Well, the paragraph I quoted referred to the religious element of Christmas as a 'bolt-on' and said that churches shouldn't encourage the festival. That could certainly be interpreted as a suggestion that churches shouldn't celebrate Christmas at all.
My point was that the religious aspect should be the priority, not that it should be removed. The problem, however, is that Christmas is now so secularised in the wider culture that you now hear churches talking about 'putting Christ back into Christmas', which does indeed imply that he is a fairly marginal figure who needs to be tacked on because we've 'forgotten' him. Even many Christian families, I expect, spend more time on preparing for the secular celebration aspect than anything else.
quote:
It may come as a shock to you, but some Christians really don't celebrate Christmas.
Some of my mother's family, very strict Pentecostals, aren't really into it, but they live far, far away. Perhaps they'd be far more caught up in it if they lived in the UK. But I wasn't raised with them, so I can't say I share their exact cultural response to Christmas.
As I said in my previous post, we're all free to do what we like. I'm certainly not telling you what to do, just expressing my own thoughts.
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on
:
Now that the husband's military career is finally over and we're lucky enough to be able to settle down and have family come for Christmas, we decorate inside and out, but for all the years before that we didn't own any Christmas stuff and didn't bother to decorate at all. We heard , through the neighbor's kids, that their parents said we weren't Christians. No inflatable snowman, no faith, I guess.
As for having the kids show off their gifts, I've always hated that. I grew up in an area where some of my classmates had very wealthy parents and others lived in shacks without running water. Our teachers would always have us stand up, one by one, and tell what we got for Christmas. From the age of six I could tell that was wrong.
Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on
:
I remember reading a version of the origin of the Christmas tree in which St Boniface, during his missionary work in Germany, had felled an oak sacred to Thunor* or whatever name the thunder god went by in those parts. Subsequently, a small fir tree appeared between the roots of the oak, which Boniface used as a sign of the true God.
This would suggest, whatever else lies behind this story, that people have identified the Christmas tree as anti-pagan for a long time.
*Online versions name Wotan**, which is odd as his tree was the ash.
** Actually Odin, but he doesn't belong in Germany.
Posted by QLib (# 43) on
:
There's an Anglo-Saxon poem called "The Dream of the Rood" which is ostensibly Christian. The tree is cut down to be used as a cross, and the warrior (Christ/Odin - a certain ambivalence there, to my mind) ascends it to meet his death. The tree is later glorified. Well, i think it pre-figures the Christmas tree, but my Anglo-Saxon tutor said that was a mis-reading.
As regards the OP - I think that,on balance, Christmas is rather a good thing, forcing us out of our winter lethargy. After all, we all know the timing is nothing to do with the actual date of Jesus' birthday and more to do with ancient pagan rites. Wise pagans. Yes, it's shit for some people, but, if you had an abusive family, then any family festivity is going to bring the same load of pain. However great the temptation, I'm not sure that pretending Christmas isn't happening is the answer.
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on
:
As far as I can see, the average interval between TV programmes instructing you on how to cook the Perfect Christmas Dinner is about half an hour. I'm somehow not seeing millions of Nigellas in immaculate kitchens turning out yet another perfect turkey mousseline with flambé stuffing and cranberry jus - just legions of stressed women for whom the whole thing is just one long day at the cooker or the sink.
I like cooking, but at this point I'm thinking steak'n'chips.
Posted by Moo (# 107) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
I like cooking, but at this point I'm thinking steak'n'chips.
When I had Christmas at my house, I always served steak. (It was very good steak.) I wanted to spend my time in the living room with the rest of the family.
Moo
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
:
I haven't had turkey for years. Last year we had baked gammon. No idea what we're doing this year, I'm not backpacking a complete Christmas dinner, so it depends on what's available when we get there.
(Personally, I really don't have a problem with Christmas any more. I did say this in the OP. And I did also say it was written with dread wondering what this week would bring, after last week dealing with students getting more and more distressed in the lead up to Christmas because they dread the holiday. And teenage boys getting distressed means trashing the place.)
Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on
:
I remember when I worked in mental health, and saw the harmful effects that Christmas has on vulnerable people whose families have rejected them, I found myself wishing that Christmas didn't exist - I guess as a concept in people's minds that this is a time of year where families get together and there is lots of love and goodwill. It reminds people of what they don't have. And in reality, even loving families get frazzled with all the expectations - it seems a very stressful time of the year for most people.
I stopped doing Christmas for myself. I prefer to spend Christmas alone. I like the solitude. I prefer to see family at other times, where there is no big expectation or sense of a special day which will end up not being very special! I like how Christmas is exciting for my niece and nephew, although I also see how the expectations and the hype get too much for them. Sometimes I think it would be better if individual families just chose their own rituals and times to spend together, so there would be no external pressure, and people without families wouldn't feel left out of some huge big national celebration. Although of course one can't simply stop a tradition like that, which has become embedded in so many people's lives. And I imagine that even some of the people who hate it would protest if it were taken away.
Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on
:
I really don't get why people find cooking a roast dinner on Christmas day so much harder and more expensive than cooking a roast dinner at any other time.
If you want the really easy version, turkey breast joint, frozen roast potatoes, frozen sprouts, cranberry jelly bought premade. Paxo stuffing. Bisto gravy. Pigs in blankets frozen if they are something you fell you neec to have ( we never do).
(That list, to feed four people, comes in at £16.54 on tesco online - then a half kilo Christmas pud is £1.75 and and half a pint of brandy cream is £2.40.)
Thats roughly £20 the whole meal, + £15 for a 3ltr box of wine. (And it would be cheaper from a cheaper supermarket.)
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
:
It's not the cooking of a turkey that's the problem, it's the expectation that I will eat turkey, because that is what you eat
Posted by Francophile (# 17838) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
It's not the cooking of a turkey that's the problem, it's the expectation that I will eat turkey, because that is what you eat
Eat what you want. If that's Pot Noodle or beans on toast, great. Who's expecting you to eat turkey? Lots of vegeterians won't be eating turkey. Lots of others prefer beef or ham or fish.
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
I'm somehow not seeing millions of Nigellas in immaculate kitchens turning out yet another perfect turkey mousseline with flambé stuffing and cranberry jus - just legions of stressed women for whom the whole thing is just one long day at the cooker or the sink.
When we go to my parents house for Christmas we all take responsibility for part of the meal. My brother and sister-in-law provide the starters, mom and dad do the main course, and my wife and I do the pudding.
Of course, my mom is one of those who will cook up a massive roast any time one of us pops round for the day, so doing it at Christmas isn't any more bother for her than doing it in the middle of July.
We don't go for any of that fancy french-sounding crap though. Turkey, beef, pigs in blankets, taters, veg, gravy and sauces is quite enough.
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on
:
Doublethink: quote:
I really don't get why people find cooking a roast dinner on Christmas day so much harder and more expensive than cooking a roast dinner at any other time.
The thing is that a lot of people DON'T cook regularly. For those of us who do, it's just an ordinary roast dinner, no big deal (except if you're having turkey the blasted bird takes about four times as long to cook as everything else). For people who don't normally cook but feel pressured into it because Everybody Does Home-Cooked Turkey At Christmas, it *is* a big deal.
We always have chicken, and Other Half cooks it.
Posted by Taliesin (# 14017) on
:
Last day at my school (for difficult teens) yesterday.
At the end of assembly (lots of rousing singing) the head gave his usual pre Christmas speech about expectations of Christmas, disappointment and frustration. He reminded the kids that it's a time to be kind to each other and to look after the people you love. And that is just a day, and whether or not it worked out the way you hoped, to try and keep breathing, and hold on to your feelings. (Keep your temper)
He gave the same speech in the evening, to the parents. Reminding them it's only 2 weeks...
It's brilliant. Very caring and insightful. And we make it as cheerful and meaningful beforehand, with our Christmas meal at lunchtime yesterday with kids, staff and governors, served by senior staff.
Look after each other, people, and make what you can of what there is.
It's a difficult balance to get right, doesn't always work as well as this year.
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
I really don't get why people find cooking a roast dinner on Christmas day so much harder and more expensive than cooking a roast dinner at any other time.
If you want the really easy version, turkey breast joint, frozen roast potatoes, frozen sprouts, cranberry jelly bought premade. Paxo stuffing. Bisto gravy. Pigs in blankets frozen if they are something you fell you neec to have ( we never do).
(That list, to feed four people, comes in at £16.54 on tesco online - then a half kilo Christmas pud is £1.75 and and half a pint of brandy cream is £2.40.)
Thats roughly £20 the whole meal, + £15 for a 3ltr box of wine. (And it would be cheaper from a cheaper supermarket.)
True, true. However - and I stand before you as someone who has a Lidl Three Fish Roast/ Steak and Stilton Pie/ Potato Croquettes in the freezer - it's food, Scottie, but not as we know it.
Real food - meat you have to cook from raw, veggies you need to scrub and peel, bread and cakes you need to assemble and wait around outside the oven door for - does taste much better than the processed item. The preparation of such food can be an art and the sharing of it one of the greatest pleasures of existence. Literally, a love feast.
But. Then there is the lie, the corruption of this truth. It cosmeticises the work involved, plays down the professional levels of skill, airbrushes the result. It's selling women - and I think it particularly targets women - another version of cruel perfection. Be this beautiful/nurturing/wonderful wife/mother/hostess, especially NOW at CHRISTMAS.
What you really want is a nation of women, perfectly content with their faces and bodies, making a Christmas dinner out of whatever food they know and like cooking, while temperately telling their offspring that if they think the family is plunging into debt so they can have the latest Xbox, they have another think coming. But where's the money in that?
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on
:
Firenze:
Oh, and frozen sprouts are an abomination unto the LORD. Which is why we hardly ever have sprouts except at Christmas because neither of us can be bothered peeling fresh ones except on special occasions.
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Oh, and frozen sprouts are an abomination unto the LORD.
The word "frozen" is redundant in that sentence.
Posted by Dormouse (# 5954) on
:
Mr D likes "The Simpsons" but he has eschewed watching it at the moment because of the cringingly awful sponsorship clip beforehand:
teenaged son/daughter lounging on bed with computer. Shouts "Muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuum" or "Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad!" over various shots, and when indulgent mum/dad appears says "Can I have this----(insert expensive goft) for Christmas?"
Indulgent mum/dad smiles and says "As it's Christmas..."
Mr D and I end up shouting "No you lazy sod get off your arse and start earning!" at the TV.
I HATE this view of Christmas as an excuse to demand expensive gifts from parents. And parents who indulgently give everything to their "babies"
Posted by Francophile (# 17838) on
:
I agree. Its scunnering.
Posted by Fineline (# 12143) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
I really don't get why people find cooking a roast dinner on Christmas day so much harder and more expensive than cooking a roast dinner at any other time.
Isn't it because they have so many relatives coming to stay that it's hard to find enough room in the oven to cook everything? And it's also more pressure to cook for a whole lot of guests than just cooking for immediate family - I would be a bit nervous if I had to do that!
I really don't get why people feel the need to buy so much food for Christmas in general though, even if they do have guests coming to visit.
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
:
Of all the roast dinners through the year Mrs Sioni enjoys Christmas dinner most. That's because everyone joins in. When you have six or seven lending a hand for veg. preparation, sorting out the Great Bird, washing up as you go along and preparing the stuffings, sausages etc it's a breeze (especially with cocktails to move things along).
We make Xmas dinner prep part of the day and it works well. If every day was like that, we'd eat better all year.
There. That wasn't very Hellish, apart from causing some envy ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on
:
Four people generate 3 times as much washing up as 2 people, 6 people 10 times. Meals of 2, 3 and 4 courses will similarly generate exponential requirements both for raw materials, time to prep same, and debris to be cleared up afterwards.
And that's just one meal. Christmas is supposed to be this rolling feast, going on for days.
I have the most modest of social calendars for the upcoming week, but even so I seem to have spent/ will spend an inordinate amount of time planning, shopping and cooking. You can't, with guests, just do as you would with your nearest and dearest - point them in the general direction of the kitchen and leave them to forage.
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
There's an Anglo-Saxon poem called "The Dream of the Rood" which is ostensibly Christian. The tree is cut down to be used as a cross, and the warrior (Christ/Odin - a certain ambivalence there, to my mind) ascends it to meet his death. The tree is later glorified. Well, i think it pre-figures the Christmas tree, but my Anglo-Saxon tutor said that was a mis-reading.
I think The Dream of the Rood is a lot more than "ostensibly" Christian. Bloody good poem as well.
But, as I didn't realise till Greenbelt headlined it a couple of years ago, the Tree of Life is most certainly a Christian and Biblical symbol. Going all the way back to Eden of course. But also references in the prophets, especially Ezekiel. And in the Revelation in the NT. And of course there is Jesus "I am the vine" and Paul talking about grafting.
Posted by M. (# 3291) on
:
Dormouse said: quote:
Mr D likes "The Simpsons" but he has eschewed watching it at the moment because of the cringingly awful sponsorship clip beforehand
Why doesn't he turn the sound down?
According to Firenze: quote:
You can't, with guests, just do as you would with your nearest and dearest - point them in the general direction of the kitchen and leave them to forage.
But that's nothing to do with Christmas, that's to do with having guests.
I can't honestly find much sympathy in myself for people that buy into what adverts tell them.
For the record, as everyone else seems to be reporting their Christmas menus, we're making beef wellington* and will have it with roast potatoes (can you really buy frozen roast potatoes? What a strange idea), micro-Brussels from the garden (my brussel sprouts never grow properly), leeks, cauliflower and white sauce, followed by the Christmas pud that I made a couple of years ago. Haven't decided between brandy butter or custard yet.
M.
* I confess we will use ready made puff pastry
Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by M.:
Dormouse said: quote:
Mr D likes "The Simpsons" but he has eschewed watching it at the moment because of the cringingly awful sponsorship clip beforehand
Why doesn't he turn the sound down?
According to Firenze: quote:
You can't, with guests, just do as you would with your nearest and dearest - point them in the general direction of the kitchen and leave them to forage.
But that's nothing to do with Christmas, that's to do with having guests.
I can't honestly find much sympathy in myself for people that buy into what adverts tell them.
For the record, as everyone else seems to be reporting their Christmas menus, we're making beef wellington* and will have it with roast potatoes (can you really buy frozen roast potatoes? What a strange idea), micro-Brussels from the garden (my brussel sprouts never grow properly), leeks, cauliflower and white sauce, followed by the Christmas pud that I made a couple of years ago. Haven't decided between brandy butter or custard yet.
M.
* I confess we will use ready made puff pastry
We're having whatever my dad decides he wants to cook as we're going there. If we're at home, we're likely to have roast lamb with roast potatoes and veg. If you're going to have a "special" dinner, it may as well be something you like and no one in the family likes turkey.
We cook from scratch most days so it's less of a stretch. But, I can see Frienze's point that if you don't usually, being expected to suddenly produce prefection on a plate is yet another stress. The whole cookery thing annoys me - years of ready meals and tv chefs have completely deskilled a generation of people and turned cooking into A Big Deal.
Tubbs
Posted by deano (# 12063) on
:
Surely Christmas only raises expectations amongst two groups of people...
1) Children - in what the expect to get
2) Pretentious tossers - who feel the need to get everything "perfect" so they can show off
The first group isn't easy, expecially with peer pressure and not wanting your children to appear left out. But nobody said being a parent was an easy job and sometimes tough calls do have to be made. We've all had to do it.
The second group can shove their hand-made tinsel up their arses. Christmas dinner is just a Sunday dinner with pigs-in-blankets as far as I'm concerned, and if people want to look down on me because we don't have a bronze, corn-fed turkey who iss bathed in asses milk daily and has its own personal trainer, then fuck them. They won't be sharing my table anyway.
The expectation - as adults - is whatever we set it as, and if we set it so high we are unable to enjoy it then that is our own stupidity.
I don't have an answer on the expectations of children, except to make sure that there is always something unbought! They'll always have a birthday coming up, so it can be something to look forward to then.
Posted by Francophile (# 17838) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Surely Christmas only raises expectations amongst two groups of people...
1) Children - in what the expect to get
2) Pretentious tossers - who feel the need to get everything "perfect" so they can show off
The first group isn't easy, expecially with peer pressure and not wanting your children to appear left out. But nobody said being a parent was an easy job and sometimes tough calls do have to be made. We've all had to do it.
The second group can shove their hand-made tinsel up their arses. Christmas dinner is just a Sunday dinner with pigs-in-blankets as far as I'm concerned, and if people want to look down on me because we don't have a bronze, corn-fed turkey who iss bathed in asses milk daily and has its own personal trainer, then fuck them. They won't be sharing my table anyway.
The expectation - as adults - is whatever we set it as, and if we set it so high we are unable to enjoy it then that is our own stupidity.
I don't have an answer on the expectations of children, except to make sure that there is always something unbought! They'll always have a birthday coming up, so it can be something to look forward to then.
Brilliant common sense Deano.
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by M.:
According to Firenze: quote:
You can't, with guests, just do as you would with your nearest and dearest - point them in the general direction of the kitchen and leave them to forage.
But that's nothing to do with Christmas, that's to do with having guests.
But the peculiarity of Christmas is that you are obliged to have guests - and not necessarily the ones you would chose.
Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by M.:
According to Firenze: quote:
You can't, with guests, just do as you would with your nearest and dearest - point them in the general direction of the kitchen and leave them to forage.
But that's nothing to do with Christmas, that's to do with having guests.
But the peculiarity of Christmas is that you are obliged to have guests - and not necessarily the ones you would chose.
Missed that memo. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
What's worrying is that I agreed with Deano. Either the apoloyspe is neigh or I need a lie down.
Tubbs
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
:
Obliged to have guests? Bloody hell, is that correct? Stone me, I've lived nearly 70 years without realizing that - I suppose that's why Auntie Elspeth used to look daggers at me when I gave her her annual box of Maltesers, she wanted an invite!
Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on
:
Reply to Tubbs,
Well, yes, deano has made a few sensible posts lately. Here in Hell, no less.
But whilst he does make some sense with this post, I do not 100% agree with it. CK's OP was intended to be about the vulnerable. People who might have more difficulty taking responsibility and separating themselves from imposed expectations.
Doublethink has offered the only true rebuttal to this, BTW. Her experience with the vulnerable shows that, at least some, welcome the holiday hype. Indeed, there are studies that, at least tangentially, support this.
I do agree the rest of us adults should manage ourselves better, decide our own behaviour.
However, years of research (adverts) shows we don't.
To summarise: Though deano's post mostly makes sense; there is wiggle room. Therefore the apocalypse is not quite nigh, but someone is starting to pencil in possible dates.
[ 19. December 2013, 15:11: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
Posted by deano (# 12063) on
:
Ha!
It's not me that's changing... it's you lot who are slowly coming over to the dark side... ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Ha!
It's not me that's changing... it's you lot who are slowly coming over to the dark side...
And there was me thinking we were having a good influence on you ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Tubbs
Posted by deano (# 12063) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Ha!
It's not me that's changing... it's you lot who are slowly coming over to the dark side...
And there was me thinking we were having a good influence on you
Tubbs
Sorry I haven't replied earlier. I needed to get a minimum-wager to wash my cars (roll on next month when I can get a cheap Rumanian to do it), then I watched some porn whilst having a veal and fois gras sandwich with a few bankers.
Yes, what you're thinking might be possible Tubbs, I suppose. What are the odds do you reckon?
Posted by Spike (# 36) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
... then I watched some porn whilst having a veal and fois gras sandwich with a few bankers.
I've never had that combination. What did the bankers taste like?
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Obliged to have guests? Bloody hell, is that correct? Stone me, I've lived nearly 70 years without realizing that - I suppose that's why Auntie Elspeth used to look daggers at me when I gave her her annual box of Maltesers, she wanted an invite!
Congrats for successfully fending off your kith and kin for the last three score and ten. And yes, Elspeth was expecting a solicitation to mulled wine and nibbles chez Quetzalcoatl at the very least.
Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on
:
We are guest-free at Christmas. We will slob around in our PJs till it's time for church, then have a mid afternoon/ late afternoon/ who cares when dinner - a cold joint of gammon, studded with cloves and glazed with something delicious, and masses of roast veg. We buy the gammon ready -prepared from the butcher so it's no hassle, and we're dab hands at preparing veg.
We used to go to my parents, but Mum always wanted "the perfect family Christmas" and the effort to be perfect just resulted in tension headaches. We can't have my parents here, because Mum wouldn't be able to cope with our low standards.
It will be a lovely day - give the North East family some new books, an open box of chocolate gingers, and an endless supply of tea / coffee, plus a nice walk to and from church and the service itself, and we're happy.
Posted by deano (# 12063) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
... then I watched some porn whilst having a veal and fois gras sandwich with a few bankers.
I've never had that combination. What did the bankers taste like?
Piquant, Spike, very piquant.
I really do need to improve my grammar. I was away when we did it at school and I forgot to borrow somebody elses book to write up the notes from. My punctuations fine though.
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
Either the apoloyspe is neigh
Well, there are supposed to be four horsemen...
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
So I see the subject is turning to egg nog.
Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Ha!
It's not me that's changing... it's you lot who are slowly coming over to the dark side...
And there was me thinking we were having a good influence on you
Tubbs
Sorry I haven't replied earlier. I needed to get a minimum-wager to wash my cars (roll on next month when I can get a cheap Rumanian to do it), then I watched some porn whilst having a veal and fois gras sandwich with a few bankers.
Yes, what you're thinking might be possible Tubbs, I suppose. What are the odds do you reckon?
Maybe not so much.
Tubbs
Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
So I see the subject is turning to egg nog.
Not for me thanks, I quite dislike vomiting during major festivals.
The alcohol's fine, of course. It's the egg bit I don't get on well with.
Posted by lily pad (# 11456) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
We are guest-free at Christmas. We will slob around in our PJs till it's time for church, then have a mid afternoon/ late afternoon/ who cares when dinner...
I know this is Hell but it sounds heavenly to me.
quote:
...We can't have my parents here, because Mum wouldn't be able to cope with our low standards.
That'll preach!
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
So I see the subject is turning to egg nog.
Not for me thanks, I quite dislike vomiting during major festivals.
The alcohol's fine, of course. It's the egg bit I don't get on well with.
Don't knock it, we need some Hellish content on this thread. It's getting way too cosy.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
Well my admittedly softly state point was this-- the sudden uprise in crazy-ass spelling/ punctuation/ general coherence issues on this thread made me wonder if some of us have been using the brandy for something more than soaking our cherries in.
Go ahead and make that a euphemism, dear reader, if that is the sort of person you are.
Back to Christmas-- out of school, out of work, down to the last couple hundred bucks on my last financial aid check, both credit cards maxed out, 52K in debt, and my gift stash this year was made possible by a plow through my stored wedding gifts and a trip to the Dollar Store. The Nephs and the Neez are going to actively hate me, my presents suck so hard. Boy do I intend to make up for it next year. But this year, every time I a Santa song I want to assault rifle that son of a bitch with his show-stealing, 1%-er, Bag of Infinite Holding- carrying ass. Kick down so I can get some cool presents for the kids, you ermine-trimmed asshole!
Humbug. See also: Bah.
Also-- I heard a re-master of that fucking stupid Paul McCartney Christmas song-- with several guest artists. Everyone involved in that abomination deserves season tickets in Hell. One version of it is bad enough.
[ 21. December 2013, 03:54: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
:
I just holiday-spirited myself into a tummy ache.
what else do you do with leftover cookie frosting?
Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on
:
You frost cookies? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
:
only the shaped sugar cookies that need decorating. Don't taste terribly good but the family decorating time is fun. Now that my kids are older, they pull out the random odd cookie cutters that my mom has squirreled away, so we have shamrocks and bunnies and birds of many varieties and an arrow that morphed in the oven to look like a giant schlong. after decorating, we had an incredible hulk gingerbread man, a snowman turned into an ellipses (daughter is an english major, what can I say) and the Monty Python Killer Rabbit.
good times.
Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Also-- I heard a re-master of that fucking stupid Paul McCartney Christmas song-- with several guest artists. Everyone involved in that abomination deserves season tickets in Hell.
That song sucks weasel balls.
But that's not what I came here to talk about. This has been bothering me since I read it a few days ago:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
At my old church I was uneasy at how on Christmas morning children were encouraged to go to the front and wave their newly acquired Christmas presents about, as though Christianity encouraged materialism.
Where, in all of Scripture and Tradition (not to mention Reason), does it suggest that this in any way appropriate? A liturgically-sanctioned "show and tell" that reeks of the worst sort of consumerism? Based on replies to SvitlanaV2's post, it seems the practice may not be common (thank God) but that her experience is not unique: quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I have actually tried to kill this practice in our church - but it is the parents who resist all attempts to do so!
Maybe this is a "preaching opportunity" for next year. It's a sacred cow that deserves to be flambéed and served on skewers.
If you want to parade the kiddos up in front of the congregation so they can look cute and touching and all that, let them each tell the congregation what their favorite gift was that they gave to someone this year, or some act of kindness that they did for someone this season. The potential for showoff and oneupmanship is still there, but at least it's remotely related to what Christ himself might have encouraged.
Oh, by the way, that "Happy Birthday Jesus" crap? I work in Christian education and get catalogs with that nonsense all Advent. I hope it's only the crazy homeschoolers who buy it. If I went to a Christmas liturgy that included Jesus Birthday cake and balloons, I would walk out.
Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on
:
But, the cake and balloons were such a bit hit at Pentecost. ![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif)
Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on
:
deano not only do you need to brush up on grammar but you need to check on French spellings and meanings fois= time meaning occasion
foie = liver
Joyeux Noel Happy Christmas !
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
My punctuations fine though.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
What did the bankers taste like?
A bit rich I should imagine .
Posted by Taliesin (# 14017) on
:
re: happy birthday jesus?
Every Christmas morning at my childhood church we kids had to troop to the back what the .5 size nativity stable was, and sing 'happy birthday' to the plaster jesus in his crib.
Utterly cringe worthy, and saying no was not an option
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Taliesin:
re: happy birthday jesus?
Every Christmas morning at my childhood church we kids had to troop to the back what the .5 size nativity stable was, and sing 'happy birthday' to the plaster jesus in his crib.
Utterly cringe worthy, and saying no was not an option
The under-fives sang "Happy Birthday" as part of their contribution to yesterday's Christmas service. Cheesy, but it didn't detract from an otherwise brilliant piece by four girls between two and four.
Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
We are guest-free at Christmas. We will slob around in our PJs till it's time for church, then have a mid afternoon/ late afternoon/ who cares when dinner - a cold joint of gammon, studded with cloves and glazed with something delicious, and masses of roast veg. We buy the gammon ready -prepared from the butcher so it's no hassle, and we're dab hands at preparing veg.
We used to go to my parents, but Mum always wanted "the perfect family Christmas" and the effort to be perfect just resulted in tension headaches. We can't have my parents here, because Mum wouldn't be able to cope with our low standards.
It will be a lovely day - give the North East family some new books, an open box of chocolate gingers, and an endless supply of tea / coffee, plus a nice walk to and from church and the service itself, and we're happy.
That describes my perfect Christmas. It's the 'low standards' bit that does it. The one big exception was the Christmas when we got married. We had to tidy up, dress up, and then head down to the church for the wedding in the ancient VW Microbus. Then we went back to the in-laws' house with a bunch of friends and family, and did a lot of eating and drinking. The champagne corks are still among our Christmas tree ornaments.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
Am I the only sap on earth that kinda likes singing Happy Birthday to Jesus?
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
:
yes.
But that's okay. We still love you.
Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Am I the only sap on earth that kinda likes singing Happy Birthday to Jesus?
Nope, but few admit to it. It's better than every "Jesus is my Boyfriend" song ever written.
Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Am I the only sap on earth that kinda likes singing Happy Birthday to Jesus?
The monks at Unvirtuous Abbey seem to think that Jesus likes a birthday party.
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
SNAP!
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Am I the only sap on earth that kinda likes singing Happy Birthday to Jesus?
Nope, but few admit to it. It's better than every "Jesus is my Boyfriend" song ever written.
Son, what is your major malfunction?
(Merry Christmas everyone! I love my Shipmates!)
Posted by Jahlove (# 10290) on
:
Guess you could just turn off the telly and ignore it if it upsets you that much.
[ 25. December 2013, 20:34: Message edited by: Jahlove ]
Posted by mousethief (# 953) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
Guess you could just turn off the telly and ignore it if it upsets you that much.
Hipster.
Posted by Taliesin (# 14017) on
:
Dog finished our day by sneaking into no.1 son's bedroom and eating ALL his Christmas chocolate stash, including the beautiful chocolate cupcakes he'd had iced for his friends.
He doesn't love the dog anymore.... it's been thin ice for a while
Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on
:
You must get the animal seen by a vet, or at least get a phone opinion - chocolate is poisonous to dogs.
[ 26. December 2013, 14:13: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
Posted by Taliesin (# 14017) on
:
But what can anyone do about it? As far as I'm aware, there's no specific antidote.
He was ok. Explosive poos.
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on
:
I always wake up hating all things Christmas on the 26th, no matter how nice it all was.
I feel just like that dog. It was great at the time but now I'm kind of sick.
Looking forward to Lent.
Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on
:
According to my sister, who is a vet, there is stuff you could do if needed (sometimes they need to go on a drip etc) - reason for ringing vet on discovery of chocolate eating is to be told what to look out for as indicating need for further treatment. If discovered soon enough, they may tell you to make the animal sick, and tell you how to effect that.
Posted by Huia (# 3473) on
:
As Christmas was so dire I decided to hit the shops for retail therapy today, maybe a book, or some earrings. So what did I end up with?
A rubbish bin . Yes it is purple (favourite colour), but honestly! I need some frivolity in my life.
Huia
Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
As Christmas was so dire I decided to hit the shops for retail therapy today, maybe a book, or some earrings. So what did I end up with?
A rubbish bin . Yes it is purple (favourite colour), but honestly! I need some frivolity in my life.
Huia
Purple?! Excellent - frivolous AND useful is a rare combination!
Tubbs
Posted by Starbug (# 15917) on
:
Was it a bin for rubbish or a bin that's rubbish at being a bin?
Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on
:
Thank you, Starbug. We need someone around here who is not afraid to ask the hard questions.
Posted by Kittyville (# 16106) on
:
It's purple. Does it matter?
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on
:
Of course it matters - purple is only allowed in Advent and Lent. There are a lot of people over in Ecclesiantics who will be happy to explain why, if you don't already know.
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on
:
Of course, if it was an American speaking you would know it was a bin for rubbish, because if it was a bin that was rubbish at being a bin we would say it was a rubbishy bin, or more likely a garbagy bin as we aren't as polite about our refuse as you are. I shouldn't even comment on the laughably extreme euphemism of "dust," bin.
This missing "y" suffix has upset me more times than you know. Particularly when someone is wearing a, "crap dress," or eating "crap chocolate."
You know what make a good Hell thread? New Year's resolutions for each other.
---runs for cover---
Posted by Anglo Catholic Relict (# 17213) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Of course, if it was an American speaking you would know it was a bin for rubbish, because if it was a bin that was rubbish at being a bin we would say it was a rubbishy bin, or more likely a garbagy bin as we aren't as polite about our refuse as you are. I shouldn't even comment on the laughably extreme euphemism of "dust," bin.
This missing "y" suffix has upset me more times than you know. Particularly when someone is wearing a, "crap dress," or eating "crap chocolate."
You know what make a good Hell thread? New Year's resolutions for each other.
---runs for cover---
Many years ago rubbish was collected by dealers and recycled. Dust was valuable (I am not sure why, but several Dickens stories talk about people collecting heaps of it to sell), and it was collected in dust bins. Nr and Mrs Boffin in Our Mutual Friend inherited a dust heap from their employer, for example.
Other commodities that were saved and sold were old clothes and bones. They went to the Rag and Bone man.
Therefore a dust bin started as something other than a general refuse bin; it was a dust bin; no missing letter as this is a compound noun. The term remained, even when dust ceased to be a marketable commodity.
[ 30. December 2013, 12:51: Message edited by: Anglo Catholic Relict ]
Posted by Anglo Catholic Relict (# 17213) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
One more question about Christmas services: has anyone ever had to sing 'Happy Birthday' to Jesus on Christmas day? It is just me or is that a bit cheesy??
There is not enough tea in China to induce me to do such a thing. Otoh, I often stand and listen to the hymns rather than joining in, so it would not be noticed.
I wouldn't actually walk out of the building, wherever it was, but there is a good chance I would not return. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on
:
I absolutely detest having "Happy Birthday" (or a non-copyright equivalent) sung at me in a restaurant, or anywhere else for that matter. (I have told wait staff that they won't get a tip if they dare to sing at me). Why would I put my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ through that?
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
Many years ago rubbish was collected by dealers and recycled. Dust was valuable (I am not sure why, but several Dickens stories talk about people collecting heaps of it to sell), and it was collected in dust bins.
It wasn't dust, it was ash from the hearth. The dustbin had to be metal as the ash could easily re-ignite (and was often put in hot). Ash can be used to clean floors, make soap, shine silver, melt ice and also in the garden for a top dressing as it's rich in potassium.
Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
[QB] Of course, if it was an American speaking you would know it was a bin for rubbish, because if it was a bin that was rubbish at being a bin we would say it was a rubbishy bin, or more likely a garbagy bin as we aren't as polite about our refuse as you are. I shouldn't even comment on the laughably extreme euphemism of "dust," bin.
But rather than any sort of "rubbish bin" we are more likely to say "waste basket" or "trash can" (but never wastey basket or trashy can.)
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on
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Of course not. It would never be a wastey bin and it wouldn't be a trashy can unless it was covered in glitter and hot pink varnish. The "Y" makes it an adjective, you see.
I thought that pile in "Our Mutual Friend," was junk dredged up from the river with nets, as well as ashes and dirt. Unless you lived in Oklahoma in the 1930's, I would have imagined dust would simply be too hard to collect in such a large amount.
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on
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"Dust" was, as you say, a euphemism. The Victorians were surprisingly keen on recycling, but more for economic reasons than ecological; the unemployed got no social security handouts so had to be as resourceful as they could. So "dust" was not just ashes but a lot of other things as well, and as in Third World countries today, there were scavengers who made their living going through the piles of refuse to see if there was anything salvageable they could sell.
Other euphemisms for even less savoury waste disposal were the "night soil" men and "pure collectors". Henry Mayhew wrote some quite interesting and very vivid accounts of working-class Victorian life, including various groups of people who made a living out of secondhand or discarded/waste items, if anyone wants to get a real flavour of the period.
Posted by Huia (# 3473) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Starbug:
Was it a bin for rubbish or a bin that's rubbish at being a bin?
I've come across 'rubbish' being used in that way'rubbish at being a bin' but it's not common here.
Strictly speaking I should have said "recycling bin," as I'm using it to collect cans that will be recycled - and it should be yellow, to match the wheelie bins the council provides, but as the council lacks the immagination to provide purple bins I'm doing it myself.
Huia
Posted by Starbug (# 15917) on
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Huia, if you lived in Liverpool, the council would provide you with a purple wheelie bin. I believe the Liverpool ones are purple because the two big football (soccer) teams there wear red and blue, so they use purple to avoid offending anyone.
You can buy miniature ones with the slogan 'I've wheelie bin to Liverpool'. I've got one on my desk at work to put pens in.
Posted by Huia (# 3473) on
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That does it - I'm moving.
[ 31. December 2013, 10:27: Message edited by: Huia ]
Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Starbug:
You can buy miniature ones with the slogan 'I've wheelie bin to Liverpool'. I've got one on my desk at work to put pens in.
I just HAD to look that up -- I love it!
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
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the trash talk has oozed from the cricket thread to the Christmas thread.
Posted by comet (# 10353) on
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CRACKS HOSTLY WHIP
on the tenth day of Christmas my true love gave to me.... a close thread button!
thread closed
comet
A HELLHOST IN A PEAR TREE
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