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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Classes start at 4.20pm
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
I'm not shocked by much these days, but this was a bit of a jaw dropper, I have to admit.
Mark Duggan was a criminal. He was shot lawfully by the police on his way to deal drugs. A pro-Duggan vigil was held at the weekend in Tottenham, where he was killed. It was attended by the National Union of Teachers. Of Teachers! (Well, the Ealing branch anyway.) What the hell were these guys thinking?!
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
It appears that there is a certain amount of cynicism about the police's view of events. As it appears that the police told a bunch of bare faced lies about Hillsborough and another lot about Plebgate, it appears that some people think they might have lied through their teeth about the death of Mr Duggan. My own view is that the jury were on the money about the verdict but there is a certain amount of evidence to the effect that they were not wholly honest. Hence, I think, the indignation of some members of the population.
Some very good people work for the Metropolitan Police, including the husband of a friend of mine. But they do appear to have acquired a bad habit of sticking the ace of trumps up their sleeves before sitting themselves at the card table. It's not surprising that this engenders a certain amount of cynicism.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
@ Anglican't
Feeling in a helpful mood today, so I will post some of the background that you innocently(I'm sure) negelected to include in your opening evisceration.
I'm not saying who's right or wrong on this issue, but I'm sure you will agree that it's a good thing to provide a bit of background to the controversy before soliciting comments.
[ 12. January 2014, 19:07: Message edited by: Stetson ]
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by me:
quote:
My own view is that the jury were on the money about the verdict but there is a certain amount of evidence to the effect that they were not wholly honest. Hence, I think, the indignation of some members of the population.
The "they" concerned in this sentence are the police, not the jury, who AFAICS did their duty according to their lights.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gildas:
Originally posted by me:
quote:
My own view is that the jury were on the money about the verdict but there is a certain amount of evidence to the effect that they were not wholly honest. Hence, I think, the indignation of some members of the population.
The "they" concerned in this sentence are the police, not the jury, who AFAICS did their duty according to their lights.
The police initially reported that Duggan had fired at them, and the jury found that Duggan hadn't been armed at the time of his killing? You mean things like that?
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
@ Anglican't
Feeling in a helpful mood today, so I will post some of the background that you innocently(I'm sure) negelected to include in your opening evisceration.
I'm not saying who's right or wrong on this issue, but I'm sure you will agree that it's a good thing to provide a bit of background to the controversy before soliciting comments.
Your local hosts will certainly agree. Thank you!
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
I'm sure you will agree that it's a good thing to provide a bit of background to the controversy before soliciting comments.
It would indeed. I re-wrote the second paragraph and in doing so it seems I deleted the link to the Wikipedia page that I'd intended to post. Thanks for doing what I should've done properly in the first place.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
So the Metropolitan Police have lied again in an investigation into their activities.
But obviously we should trust them...
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
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Chocoholic
Shipmate
# 4655
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Posted
While this isn't a very hellish response, I do think we have to be cautious and bear in mind how the media can twist things. Just look to last week with the stories of the changes in the baptism service and how they portrayed that.
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
A bit of a pattern is emerging though!
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
So the Metropolitan Police have lied again in an investigation into their activities.
But obviously we should trust them...
Who else are you going to trust? Criminals, gang members and their families?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
So the Metropolitan Police have lied again in an investigation into their activities.
But obviously we should trust them...
Whether you trust them or not is up to you but I hope you apply the same standard to all organisations which have lied (that's pretty much any substantial organisation that's been around for a few years including governments (local and national), armed services, blue light organisations, charities, churches, businesses other than charities and churches etc. etc.).
FWIW I had substantial dealings over several years with a number of Met employees both uniformed and non-uniformed - they're human beings. Most I would trust with my life, a few I wouldn't trust with the school hamster over a long weekend. Fortunately, as an example, the guys responsible for ensuring our safety at Heathrow are in the former category - just as well since we have no choice but to trust them if we want to fly safely in or out of one of the UK's most vulnerable major targets.
The Met is imperfect but it, at least sometimes, applies very high standards ruthlessly. One of the PCs I worked closely with was fired for misuse of the Police National Computer; his wife left him and the kids and disappeared - he tried to trace her and got found out.
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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
So the Metropolitan Police have lied again in an investigation into their activities.
But obviously we should trust them...
Who else are you going to trust? Criminals, gang members and their families?
So, the world is police and criminals only? IIRC, you are not a policeman, what crime have you committed?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Oh look. A phantom undistributed middle.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
So the Metropolitan Police have lied again in an investigation into their activities.
But obviously we should trust them...
Who else are you going to trust? Criminals, gang members and their families?
Why don't you ask the same question to the families who lost people at Hillsborough, or Ian Tomlinson's kids, or the parents of Stephen Lawrence? Or Andrew Mitchell?
A lot of police officers see the world exactly as you've said: if you're not a police officer, you're not one of us and are fair game.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
No, see, its what the police only nick them whats guilty anyway. Innit.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I'm puzzled as to why teachers should not go on such a vigil. Presumably, they shared the disquiet felt by some local people. What's wrong with that?
There are so many odd things about this case - the IPCC initially reported that Duggan was firing, then withdrew that; the marksman said that Duggan definitely had a gun, but the jury disagreed; the gun was found on some grass, and it was supposed that Duggan threw it, but nobody actually saw this; the gun had no fingerprints or DNA.
I'm not surprised that locals find all of this peculiar.
PS. I am not a gangster.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I'm puzzled as to why teachers should not go on such a vigil. Presumably, they shared the disquiet felt by some local people. What's wrong with that?
This was a pro-Duggan vigil (the local MP did not attend because of the sort of people who were there).
Notwithstanding the inconsistencies in the police account (which I believe are serious and hopefully heads will roll in due course) Duggan was a convicted criminal, from a criminal family, who got into a taxi with an illegal firearm on his way to commit a criminal act.
By attending this event, these teachers* are aligning themselves in some way with him. I find that shocking.
(*I presume they were real teachers, rather than Pilgrim-type figures who do full-time Union work.)
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
A Justice of the High Court (now retired, guess who) wanted us to stand at the time an Aust drug trafficker was being hanged in Singapore. I am totally opposed to the death penalty, but refused to stand for a drug trafficker. I was not the only one either.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
The judge leading the inquest into Duggan's death began proceedings by holding a few moments of silence in his memory. I find that utterly bizarre.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Duggan was a convicted criminal, from a criminal family, who got into a taxi with an illegal firearm on his way to commit a criminal act.
Mark Duggan isn't necessarily someone who I'd have wanted as a neighbour, because he had convictions for possession of marijuana and handling stolen goods. Those were his only convictions.
Given that we don't have the death penalty in this country, and that Duggan was unarmed when he was shot and killed, and given that the police systematically lied about events - does that not give you the slightest qualms about the vulnerability of the local population, and the apparent invulnerability of the police?
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Forward the New Republic
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I'm puzzled as to why teachers should not go on such a vigil. Presumably, they shared the disquiet felt by some local people. What's wrong with that?
This was a pro-Duggan vigil (the local MP did not attend because of the sort of people who were there).
Notwithstanding the inconsistencies in the police account (which I believe are serious and hopefully heads will roll in due course) Duggan was a convicted criminal, from a criminal family, who got into a taxi with an illegal firearm on his way to commit a criminal act.
By attending this event, these teachers* are aligning themselves in some way with him. I find that shocking.
(*I presume they were real teachers, rather than Pilgrim-type figures who do full-time Union work.)
That Jesus bloke went and got baptised like all the sinners down at the Jordan. He was aligning himself in some way with them. I find that shocking.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
That was a long time ago, Karl. Christians today don't want to be mixing with the riff-raff that you get in Tottenham these days.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
When did the UK opt for a shoot to kill policy? Or am I missing something?
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
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Arrietty
Ship's borrower
# 45
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
This was a pro-Duggan vigil (the local MP did not attend because of the sort of people who were there)
What, like teachers?
And could you explain what classes starting at 4.20 pm have to do with it?
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i-church
Online Mission and Ministry
Posts: 6634 | From: Coventry, UK | Registered: May 2001
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Given that ... Duggan was unarmed when he was shot and killed,
Given that Duggan was armed in the vecinity, the gun was found a few yards away, and that the police had no way of knowing that Duggan had disposed of the firearm, Duggan had disguised it by wrapping it in a sock...
I'd say that a police force that correctly had intelligence that Duggan was armed, and had no way of knowing that he had disposed of the gun were correct in dealing with him as if he were armed.
That the police lied about it afterwards does not change that.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
and that Duggan was unarmed when he was shot and killed
He had thrown the gun away a few seconds beforehand. Did the police know that at the time, or were they in genuine fear of their lives?
What would you do if you were trying to arrest someone who you had good reason to believe might be about to shoot you in an attempt to escape? Sure, you might say "wait for him to shoot first", but what if that shot is at you?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Duggan was a convicted criminal, from a criminal family, who got into a taxi with an illegal firearm on his way to commit a criminal act.
Mark Duggan isn't necessarily someone who I'd have wanted as a neighbour, because he had convictions for possession of marijuana and handling stolen goods. Those were his only convictions.
These convictions suggest that he's some kind of small-time crook, which I think gives a rather misleading impression.
In the Wikipedia article linked by Stetson, it is alleged that Duggan:
- a possible founder member of North London's 'Star Gang', an offshoot of the Tottenham Mandem gang;
- a 'well-known gangster' who was a 'major player and well known to the police in Tottenham';
- was under surveillance by Operation Trident officers;
- was suspected of planning to commit a crime to avenge the death of his cousin; and
- had been arrested before for murder and attempted murder.
quote:
Given that we don't have the death penalty in this country, and that Duggan was unarmed when he was shot and killed, and given that the police systematically lied about events - does that not give you the slightest qualms about the vulnerability of the local population, and the apparent invulnerability of the police?
The Tomlinson and Mitchell incidents give me qualms - serious qualms - about the vulnerability of the local population. This incident doesn't.
[ 13. January 2014, 09:50: Message edited by: Anglican't ]
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
When did the UK opt for a shoot to kill policy?
Any policy where you open fire is a "shoot to kill policy".
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
This reminds me of the George Herbert poem 'Redemption', in which a man looks for Jesus amongst high and mighty people, but then:
At length I heard a ragged noise and mirth
Of thieves and murderers; there I him espied,
Who straight, Your suit is granted, said, and died.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
When did the UK opt for a shoot to kill policy? Or am I missing something?
IIRC, if there is an immediate threat to either the officer's life, or the life of another, a firearm can be used to kill. This has been the case for a long time, but with varying degrees of judicial and operational constraint.
In the Duggan case, the justification was that the officer who fired the fatal shots 'believed' he was in such a situation, and thus the killing was lawful.
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Forward the New Republic
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Duggan was a convicted criminal, from a criminal family, who got into a taxi with an illegal firearm on his way to commit a criminal act.
Mark Duggan isn't necessarily someone who I'd have wanted as a neighbour, because he had convictions for possession of marijuana and handling stolen goods. Those were his only convictions.
These convictions suggest that he's some kind of small-time crook, which I think gives a rather misleading impression.
In the Wikipedia article linked by Stetson, it is alleged that Duggan:
- a possible founder member of North London's 'Star Gang', an offshoot of the Tottenham Mandem gang;
- a 'well-known gangster' who was a 'major player and well known to the police in Tottenham';
- was under surveillance by Operation Trident officers;
- was suspected of planning to commit a crime to avenge the death of his cousin; and
- had been arrested before for murder and attempted murder.
I'm sorry. You appear to have mistaken shit the police made up with actual convictions.
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Forward the New Republic
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Or be living in a world where suspicion is proof. It's the sort of climate where coppers frame people because "they know they did it."
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Yes, I think some local people have also been unhappy with the way the police bigged up Duggan as a top gangster. Well, maybe he was, but the police descriptions are full of 'was believed to be', 'was suspected of being', and so on. I guess some locals don't believe the police - shock, horror.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Which is all irrelevant anyway, unless we believe the police shooting people is fine if they were generall bad eggs. All that's important are the circumstances on the day the guy got shot; armed police are not there to take out people we don't like very much. I'm sure some people would like to live in that sort of world, but I'm not one of them.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arrietty:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
This was a pro-Duggan vigil (the local MP did not attend because of the sort of people who were there)
What, like teachers?
Mr David Lammy, MP said "I will not share a platform with anarchist groups and people that don't accept that a jury laboured and reached a decision."
quote:
And could you explain what classes starting at 4.20 pm have to do with it?
It's a drugs reference. There's a Wikipedia page on '420' which I can't link to (this site doesn't like parentheses in URL codes and I can't do a Tinyurl where I am at the moment).
[ 13. January 2014, 10:08: Message edited by: Anglican't ]
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Arrietty
Ship's borrower
# 45
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Posted
I still don't understand what that has to do with the content of the thread, which is apparently a complaint about what teachers do in their spare time.
If you are not able to link to it, could you perhaps explain?
[ 13. January 2014, 10:17: Message edited by: Arrietty ]
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i-church
Online Mission and Ministry
Posts: 6634 | From: Coventry, UK | Registered: May 2001
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Which is all irrelevant anyway, unless we believe the police shooting people is fine if they were generall bad eggs. All that's important are the circumstances on the day the guy got shot; armed police are not there to take out people we don't like very much. I'm sure some people would like to live in that sort of world, but I'm not one of them.
Well, quite - can't find the figures offhand but I read on a real bit of paper at the weekend that in the last 5 years the Met have deployed specialist firearms officers over 10,000 times in response to specific operations. They've actually fired their weapons on only four occasions within that.
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And is it true? For if it is....
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arrietty:
I still don't understand what that has to do with the content of the thread, which is apparently a complaint about what teachers do in their spare time.
If you are not able to link to it, could you perhaps explain?
Classes start at - reference to teachers.
4.20pm - reference to the supposedly traditional time one smokes cannabis. Duggan was a drug dealer.
Not the greatest example of wit, I appreciate.
[ 13. January 2014, 10:31: Message edited by: Anglican't ]
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I'm sorry. You appear to have mistaken shit the police made up with actual convictions.
Are you saying that all of these allegations are fabricated? The fact that certain firearms officers have produced misleading and possibly false accounts of an incident doesn't preclude there being some truth to a general body of intelligence, does it?
[ 13. January 2014, 10:34: Message edited by: Anglican't ]
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I'm sorry. You appear to have mistaken shit the police made up with actual convictions.
Are you saying that all of these allegations are fabricated? The fact that certain firearms officers have produced misleading and possibly false accounts of an incident doesn't preclude there being some truth to a general body of intelligence, does it?
And what difference does it make? It's somehow more OK to gun someone down if they're not a very pleasant person?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I'm sorry. You appear to have mistaken shit the police made up with actual convictions.
Are you saying that all of these allegations are fabricated? The fact that certain firearms officers have produced misleading and possibly false accounts of an incident doesn't preclude there being some truth to a general body of intelligence, does it?
"Misleading and possibly false accounts"? Two and a half years of lies and back-tracking would be more accurate. Give it another twenty years and it will be as hollow as the stories concocted by the West Yorkshire Plod after Hillsborough.
There may be some truth in there, but who can tell?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I'm sorry. You appear to have mistaken shit the police made up with actual convictions.
Are you saying that all of these allegations are fabricated? The fact that certain firearms officers have produced misleading and possibly false accounts of an incident doesn't preclude there being some truth to a general body of intelligence, does it?
And what difference does it make? It's somehow more OK to gun someone down if they're not a very pleasant person?
No, of course not. But police marksmen can and do open fire if they believe that they are in danger (I do not know the precise terms of engagement). A jury decided that Duggan had been lawfully killed. I presume (but do not know for sure) that they reached that verdict on the basis that they agreed there were reasonable grounds for believing there was such danger, notwithstanding the contradictory evidence presented by the police.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I'm sorry. You appear to have mistaken shit the police made up with actual convictions.
Are you saying that all of these allegations are fabricated? The fact that certain firearms officers have produced misleading and possibly false accounts of an incident doesn't preclude there being some truth to a general body of intelligence, does it?
I'm saying you have no way of knowing one way or another, especially in this case where you've already acknowledge the police have lied, whether Mark Duggan was a hardened criminal bent on shooting another man dead in a revenge attack, or just some poor schmuck whose face fitted the wanted posters.
When the police make shit up about you, plant evidence on you and stitch you up like a joint of meat, will all your neighbours say "well, there were all these allegations, some of them must be true"?
Yes, of course they will. We know that's the case because it's happened time and time again. Police screw up. Police close ranks. Police blame the victim(s).
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Forward the New Republic
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
We know that's the case because it's happened time and time again. Police screw up. Police close ranks. Police blame the victim(s).
Police retire.
Truth comes out.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Not the greatest example of wit, I appreciate.
Ah yes, the perils of trying to come up with the great, memorable thread title instead of the boringly helpful factual one.
*whacks Anglican't across the nose with a rolled-up newspaper*
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
We know that's the case because it's happened time and time again. Police screw up. Police close ranks. Police blame the victim(s).
Police retire.
Truth comes out.
To add to that: Right-wing media and right-wing idiots follow police line. Police gets MBE/OBE. Police gets very good pension.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
The judge leading the inquest into Duggan's death began proceedings by holding a few moments of silence in his memory. I find that utterly bizarre.
I find it rather scary that you think its OK to kill people just because they are drug dealers.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
The judge leading the inquest into Duggan's death began proceedings by holding a few moments of silence in his memory. I find that utterly bizarre.
I find it rather scary that you think its OK to kill people just because they are drug dealers.
I don't and I haven't said that.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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