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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: We believe the Lord for Finding Money and...
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Oh hooray. A church down the road appears to have adopted this "Giving Confession" to be said at their offering (I have not moved to California, but the link goes to the same text).
We believe the Lord for creative ideas? Well maybe. But "sales and commissions"? "checks in the mail"?? "finding money" ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
At a stretch I might trust in the Lord to provide some of these things (as a freelancer, clients and customers are often in my prayers...), but I don't think screwing my eyes tight shut and believing as hard as I can will make a €500 note appear on the pavement.
And besides, if it's there, surely somebody else dropped it?
And why is this "declared" (as a "prayer of thanks") at the offering?
And above all - what happens when it doesn't work?
![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
[ 18. February 2014, 20:41: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
I obviously believe in the wrong Lord.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
If the postman puts next door's cheque through my letterbox by mistake, is that a Sign?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
The Gospel according to The Beatles.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
Regarding the OP, that's pretty grotesque.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Chill
Shipmate
# 13643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
Regarding the OP, that's pretty grotesque.
I don't know I love it so much I’ve adapted it for British finical instructions, do you think it will work in that context? I'm thinking it could be recited to a chosen taxpayer at the start of each financial year.
PRAYER OF BANKS AND A CONFESSION OF SORTS
As we nick your offering we believe the Lord for:
Jobs and better Jobs (We bankers must be his chosen ones cause your out on your ear pal.)
Raises and Bonuses (the good times keep rolling!)
Benefits (not any more they are cancelled pal If your disabled you best roll out into the street where you can beg)
Sales and Commissions (like the NHS which is for sale and some fucking commission will be overseeing its dismemberment)
Favorable Settlements (I know they are our debts but do us a favour and settle them pal...)
Estates and Inheritances (That first ones where you will be living and the other is what we will be stealing)
Interests and Income (You pay our interest we will have your Income)
Rebates and Returns (no pal there a thing of the past for you)
Checks in the Mail (Yes that’s another thing we would like that cheque for the royal mail pal maybe you could ease it quantativly in our direction.)
Gifts and Surprises (bubble burst and bailouts blossom it definitely feels like someone’s birthday.)
Finding Money (Year well that isn’t really a problem)
Bills Paid Off (thanks again for that)
Bills Decrease (well mine do Yours pal…)
Creative Ideas (You’re not fucking kidding. I roll the dice you pick up the cheque well if I lose…)
Clients and Customers (Serfs and Servants, that’s you pal)
Blessings and Increase (and Increase and Increase and Increase and Increase and Increase and Increase and Increase and Increase and Increase and Increase and Increase…)
Thank you Lord for meeting all of my financial needs that I may have more than enough which is never enough….
That some may trickle downwards to and promote the gospel of pull the fucking ladder up and leave them twats to drown the better to stand on the pile of corpses and call it a brave new Island.
Victory for one percent or so * P.O. Box 666, and you pricks don’t think the devil alive and well.
Posts: 343 | From: England | Registered: Apr 2008
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mertseger:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
I obviously believe in the wrong Lord.
We have a large selection of alternatives available right now, if you're willing to sign a new contract.
Thanks! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I'll peruse the lists carefully. Do any of them offer warranties, do you know?
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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PaulBC
Shipmate
# 13712
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Posted
Over here this gets called "name it & claim it " seems to be bad theology IMHO.
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"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
Posts: 873 | From: Victoria B.C. Canada | Registered: May 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Prosperity Gospel wankers.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
So . . . if the check that's allegedly in the mail, etc. etc. doesn't arrive, then we don't believe the Lord? What weird usage is that? These people obviously don't even understand what "belief" is or means.
As for the rest of their bullsh*t prayer, well, this is the sort of Christianity apt to persuade a lot of would-be "Christians" over to my "former" status.
What do you want to be their pastor got his clerical credentials by mail-order, suitable for framing, for about $8.95?
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Tune: Mine Eyes Have Seen the Glory of the Coming of the Lord
Jesus put some money in the Bank of Montreal,
Jesus put some money in the Bank of Montreal,
Jesus put some money in the Bank of Montreal,
Jesus saves, Jesus saves, Jesus saves.
Glory, Glory compound interest
Glory, Glory compound interest
Glory, Glory compound interest
God loves it lots when you give us all your cash!
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Prosperity Gospel wankers.
One of the alarming things is that on the face of it, you might well not suspect this church of that bias.
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
So . . . if the check that's allegedly in the mail, etc. etc. doesn't arrive, then we don't believe the Lord? What weird usage is that? These people obviously don't even understand what "belief" is or means.
It seems to mean "believe regardless of what actually happens".
What really gets me is that it seems to keep them quite happy. Perhaps they believe in the gospel of Pharrel Williams:
quote:
Clap along if you feel like happiness is the truth
There you are, that earworm was free.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
I thought this bull crap died in 1989.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I thought this bull crap died in 1989.
There is always someone somewhere who never got the message.
This is pure Prosperity Gospel. And so pure Crap. If it is true, and God favours the rich, then I presume the Bankers, the Tories, and all their cronies are Gods Chosen People, and those who are poor are not.
Oh, and if this is the case, then cheating on benefits to get as much as you can is legitimate - God wouldn't let you get away with it otherwise, would he?
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
God. It's good for the economy.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I thought this bull crap died in 1989.
There is always someone somewhere who never got the message.
This is pure Prosperity Gospel. And so pure Crap. If it is true, and God favours the rich, then I presume the Bankers, the Tories, and all their cronies are Gods Chosen People, and those who are poor are not.
How else does one get one's poorer congregation to finance one's manor house and expensive car? When the peasants no longer believe in Divine Right, blind 'em with Prosperity Gospel. The beauty is, they think they will obtain wealth as well. Suckers.
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
God. It's good for the economy.
(looks around at the world's most cherished structures....)
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
If the postman puts next door's cheque through my letterbox by mistake, is that a Sign?
Only if you can undetectably erase the Payee details and insert your name instead. ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
Jesus saves, but he's not getting much interest.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
Janice Joplin said it best...
Oh Lord wont you buy me a Mercedes Benz...
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I know many of the people in this church well. I honestly don't think they are looking for a particularly luxurious lifestyle, they just think that they can pray material blessing into being, or at least that they should pray expecting it because it is a legitimate sign that they are the kids of the King or some such. They seem to have entertained this illusion for some time now.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Mertseger
Faerie Bard
# 4534
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
quote:
Originally posted by Mertseger:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
I obviously believe in the wrong Lord.
We have a large selection of alternatives available right now, if you're willing to sign a new contract.
Thanks!
I'll peruse the lists carefully. Do any of them offer warranties, do you know?
Yes! Almost all of our Service Providers are guaranteed not to smite you when properly propitiated (virgins/volcanos, etc.)...unless They change Their minds. They can be a bit capricious, I'll admit. But is your current Service Provider all that different? The former residents of Sodom, Gomorrah, Bethshemesh, and Samaria as well as the Midianites all lodged complaints, IIRC; though I hear there may have been some sort of change in management or policy since then.
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Go and be who you are:
The Body of Christ,
The Goddess of Body,
The Manifest Song of Faerie.
Posts: 1765 | From: Oakland, CA, USA | Registered: May 2003
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
I first heard the whole idea of name it to claim it, put a picture of the car you want on the refrigerator and drool over it, from people I knew in the mid-seventies -- but they belonged to the church of Amway.*
* I just looked them up to see if they still existed and it seems they've linked themselves with the conservative Christians and the prosperity gospel. A match made in Hell if I ever heard of one.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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The5thMary
Shipmate
# 12953
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Posted
This reminds me of this contestant I saw the other night on Food Network's show, "Chopped". One of the competing chefs had this long intro about his belief in Jesus and how Jesus was a huge part of his life, helped him with decisions, etc. etc. Anyway, during the episode he kept saying that he was going to win "Chopped" because Jesus had told him so... and then, guess what, he lost! As he was making the walk of shame he said, "I just don't understand why God would bring me this far and then let me get chopped! I guess He has something else in mind..."
This kind of thinking gets me so mad I want to scream. There are people in this world who really think that God is going to help them win a cooking show? God is going to help one football team defeat another and assure that Maura N. of El Paso, TX is going to win the state lottery? Really? To see this guy's crestfallen expression when he lost on the cooking show... he had said, before the actual competition took place, "Jesus assures His followers of victory!". Yeah, in a cooking competition. Right. What if there had been other Christians competing with this guy? How does Jesus choose who gets the $10,000? ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.
Posts: 3451 | From: Tacoma, WA USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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The5thMary
Shipmate
# 12953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
Jesus saves, but he's not getting much interest.
Jesus Saves. Moses Invests.
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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.
Posts: 3451 | From: Tacoma, WA USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I've been thinking about this further, because years ago I heard this story from a Korean pastor (Yong Cho? aargh I can't remember the name for certain) about being 'pregnant with a bicycle'.
Here's the thing, though. He had a genuine need for the bicycle and could identify what use it was going to be in his ministry.
I think that's what is missing here. Sure, God provides things. But I reckon God would look at this kind of shopping list prayer and think "why should I?". It looks like people want this stuff so they can lead comfortable, satisfied lives, not because they're going to increase God's glory in the way that they're going to use this material wealth.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Here's the anecdote, Orfeo (warning: eye-watering website layout).
While this story sounds pretty off-the-wall to me too (specifically "I have received a bicycle" when he hadn't yet and the creative interpretation of "calling things into being" on his own account), I agree with you about the distinction, and maybe you've helped put a finger on what's wrong with the prayer linked to in the OP; it's become a recipe and a shortcut rather than something hammered out in the crucible of a real spiritual struggle.
Again, I think the people I know praying it actually think (?) mostly in terms of things generally going well in life rather than a steadily rising bank balance.
The bit that does my head in is what happens when their life does not go well - or more intriguingly, I wonder whether cultivating this sort of attitude actually turns them into permanent optimists whatever happens, which I have to admit provokes some jealousy on my part.
Then I think it's stupid to be jealous of people who are deluded, and that does my head in some more, and that's why this is in Hell.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Here's the anecdote, Orfeo (warning: eye-watering website layout).
RIght in th middle of the banner along the top is a link for web design.
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
The bit that does my head in is what happens when their life does not go well
The common response is not to lose faith, but to double-down. See End-of-the-World preachers as an example.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Eutychus - I've seen it make the organisers become very dismissive of the people who provide the actual money, time and physical support for the organisation that is "supported by prayer" because God provides, doesn't he? In reality, what is keeping it going is donations from people in both time and money.
And thank yous to the people or organisations that have just given large donations isn't necessary because God did it.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
It's akin to magic. Foul and hateful. Is it possible to align with the powers of this world to some "positive" affect? Yes.
Is is kingdom and cross shaped? Hell No.
The father of lies rubs his hands in glee.
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I think that's what is missing here. Sure, God provides things. But I reckon God would look at this kind of shopping list prayer and think "why should I?". It looks like people want this stuff so they can lead comfortable, satisfied lives, not because they're going to increase God's glory in the way that they're going to use this material wealth.
Several years back I was watching one of those celebrity poker shows, the lead singer from Creed (a popular Christian Band) was among the players. First of all, he started off with a pre interview about how he was doing this all for God and He was sure God would grant him victory. Second of all, every time something did not go his way, he would shout at the dealer. "No, that didn't beat me!" Like a seasoned, professional dealer with a crowd full of poker enthusiasts watching him would make up new rules just to throw him.
He lost-- he hung in there for a few hands, and if it were me, I would be praising God for allowing me a decent run, but this pudknocker kind of slouched off with some mumble about it being God's will.
Jeez, you'd think the better witness would be demonstrating great teamsmanship and how to enjoy the company of a table full of poker buddies. As it was, what I learned that day was that some Christians apparently think that having God as their Bestest Buddy entitles them to getting whatever they want (I have no doubt this dink conscripted legions of groupies-- er, loyal fans into praying on his victory as if the nation's salvation rested on it) and to name even the mildest departure from one's wishes as evidence of spiritual warfare. And that your belief that you are entitled to victory permits you to bark at innocent people, view them as demonic agents out to prevent God's will, and to sulk like a five year old when things don't go your way.Helluva witness, dude.
It was a poker game, for God's sake!
[ 21. February 2014, 23:21: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
this pudknocker kind of slouched off with some mumble about it being God's will.
Whereas I suspect that the bunch in the church down the road from me would be rejoicing, and explaining that in fact God really did give them the victory, because...
I tell you, it seems to be less about material wealth for them at the end of the day than about a breed of over-cheerful optimism that manages to defy the facts completely. As I said, like Pharell Williams, they seem to believe that "happiness is the truth". Or like Slartibartfast, they would "rather be happy than right any day" - and unlike Slartibartfast, it seems to work. Seems to.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Drifting Star
Drifting against the wind
# 12799
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Posted
When I was a teenager our Youth Group was told that when we prayed for something we should behave as though we had already received it, because that was showing faith.
I remember thinking that as most of the Youth Group members were praying that other members would ask them out, things were going to get awfully confusing around there.
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The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Heraclitus
Posts: 3126 | From: A thin place. | Registered: Jul 2007
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
This honestly makes me weep.
I've spent all week at an Anglican conference here in Nairobi with expat mission partners and East/ mid African partners. One of the things we've discussed is the alarming rise of prosperity teaching and the the hideous effect it has on society from the point of view of a gospel of justice
We recommitted ourselves together to eschew a theology of getting God to bless us and instead living lives focused on blessing others.
And I am completely humbled by what that costs many of my co-workers here.
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
It seems obvious to me that poorer people are likely to be more attracted to prosperity gospel teaching, while those who are already doing moderately or fairly well, or who expect to move up the career ladder as a matter of course, aren't. The former want a religion that offers practical benefits as well as spiritual ones; the latter mainly focus on spiritual needs because their practical needs have more or less been met.
Improve both the educational achievements and the career prospects of the kinds of people who attend prosperity churches and they won't see a need for prosperity teaching any more.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
I grew up in a part of West Virginia that was the poorest place in the country at that time and although a tiny minority attended strange churches like the snake handlers, most of them were attending small non-denominational churches or Baptist.
None of the poor people I knew were into anything remotely like the prosperity gospel. Instead, they comforted themselves with the belief that the poorer one was on earth, the greater the reward in Heaven. Poverty, rather than prosperity was the sign of God's favor, with a fairly open prejudice against rich people who must surely be doing something sinful in those mansions.
I don't know what changed.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
To me the saddest part of the business is that there's just a faint seed of truth, albeit a deformed one, in this belief. It's just enough of a hook to keep people attached.
After all, isn't this the flip side of Christianity's alleged compassion for the poor? Real widespread compassion for the poor, expressed in terms of material help by those who have the means, surely ought to result in substantial relief from a few of their collective miseries, oughtn't it?
A whole congregation of the poor and baffled, many of whom will have worked very hard all their lives, in acceptance of that other (American?)* myth that hard work leads to success and a comfortable life is also at work here.
Where I live, people can work 12-hour days, 7 days a week, for 4 or 5 decades at 2 or 3 low-wage jobs at a whack, and still end up living out of a motel room or a car (for those lucky enough to have one, however temporarily) or a homeless shelter. No catastrophic ill luck or bad decision is required for such an outcome (though either of the latter will certainly hasten people's arrival at a shelter's threshhold).
*I've never lived outside the U.S. so perhaps this mythology doesn't flourish elsewhere. But until there's a substantial narrowing of the gap between the minimum wage and an actual living wage, the "work-hard-&-you'll-be-fine" notion remains nothing but a myth.
What I can't understand is the apparent inability to do the simple arithmetic involved in the vast gulf between low-wage earnings and the costs of very basic, just-adequate, reasonably-secure shelter. I can't claim to be poor, but my own current shelter costs (rent & heat) consume about 65% of my take-home -- and I'm far better off than many.
[ 23. February 2014, 14:19: Message edited by: Porridge ]
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
In church this morning there was, fairly unusually for us, quite a lengthy testimony about someone who had got an unexpected raise and two unexpected bonuses at work. I was feeling very embarassed about this thread and mouthing "checks in the mail" to Mrs Eutychus.
Then, before going to testify about some other, harder things to deal with, the testifier said: "of course all that's great but of course we can't expect God to do that kind of thing all the time: what this told me is that he will provide for our needs". I think the difference is in that attitude somewhere.
[ 23. February 2014, 17:00: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Stercus Tauri
Shipmate
# 16668
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
It seems obvious to me that poorer people are likely to be more attracted to prosperity gospel teaching, while those who are already doing moderately or fairly well, or who expect to move up the career ladder as a matter of course, aren't. The former want a religion that offers practical benefits as well as spiritual ones; the latter mainly focus on spiritual needs because their practical needs have more or less been met.
Improve both the educational achievements and the career prospects of the kinds of people who attend prosperity churches and they won't see a need for prosperity teaching any more.
A bit of completely unscientific research makes me disagree with that observation... I know a few quite wealthy people in a couple of churches, and one, I know, feels he has been rewarded by God for taking risks. Another has worked hard for it and shares it with the church, but there was a day when a guest preacher preached about Heaven, rich men, camels, needles, eyes of, and following the service, the said dear old gent went for the minister at the door and gave him hell.
We have a diverse congregation, and it seems to me that the poorer people don't pray for wealth. Unlike many of us, they have a good grasp of the meaning of 'enough', and that's what they hope and pray for. I pray that some day, I can figure that out, too.
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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)
Posts: 905 | From: On the traditional lands of the Six Nations. | Registered: Sep 2011
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Drifting Star:
I remember thinking that as most of the Youth Group members were praying that other members would ask them out, things were going to get awfully confusing around there.
See, That! That is the litmus test, right there. If name it and claim it worked, Matt Smith and I would be running a preschool together in Cotati by now.
Wait, no--Monte Rio.
There were actually a couple guys in our Young Adult Group who seemed to be trying to do the name it and claim it thing with the women in the group--"The Lord has been speaking to me, and The Lord thinks you need a good Christian man to guide and protect you, because these losers you have been dating are proof positive that you are not hearing the Lord speak."
So not making that up. And yeah, they had just about as much success with that as you might predict.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
quote:
the said dear old gent went for the minister at the door and gave him hell.
Sounds like the minister got a far more punchy assurance that his message hit the target, than the more pleasant but somehow unconvincing 'nice sermon, vicar'!
And what Pyx_e said.
[ 23. February 2014, 18:36: Message edited by: mark_in_manchester ]
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
It seems obvious to me that poorer people are likely to be more attracted to prosperity gospel teaching, while those who are already doing moderately or fairly well, or who expect to move up the career ladder as a matter of course, aren't. The former want a religion that offers practical benefits as well as spiritual ones; the latter mainly focus on spiritual needs because their practical needs have more or less been met.
Improve both the educational achievements and the career prospects of the kinds of people who attend prosperity churches and they won't see a need for prosperity teaching any more.
A bit of completely unscientific research makes me disagree with that observation... I know a few quite wealthy people in a couple of churches, and one, I know, feels he has been rewarded by God for taking risks. Another has worked hard for it and shares it with the church, but there was a day when a guest preacher preached about Heaven, rich men, camels, needles, eyes of, and following the service, the said dear old gent went for the minister at the door and gave him hell.
We have a diverse congregation, and it seems to me that the poorer people don't pray for wealth. Unlike many of us, they have a good grasp of the meaning of 'enough', and that's what they hope and pray for. I pray that some day, I can figure that out, too.
True, I do think there's more to it than mere wealth and poverty, but that does seem to be a part of it. Race is obviously part of it too; this theology overwhelmingly appeals to black churchgoers. This can't be a coincidence when you consider that black people are often financially disadvantaged around the world.
Yet I can imagine that some of the members of a prosperity church would be fairly well-off. After all, someone in the congregation would have to be able to prove to the others that this way of thinking works! And to become successful by these means would probably bind someone even more closely to the church that made it all possible.
Also, of course, not all 'poor people' are the same. Some might still have faith in conventional means to raise themselves out of poverty. Some might prefer historical denominations over prosperity churches precisely because the former are deemed to be more respectable institutions, and poor people often struggle hard to remain respectable when their circumstances might be pushing them the other way.
BTW, I can't understand why a guest preacher at a prosperity church would preach against wealth. Was he from another denomination? Actually, I'm a bit cynical about the anti-wealth attitude in some circles, because most of the 'ordinary' churches I've come across seem to be permanently short of money. They're always asking for more. Most churches would be delighted if a multi-millionaire turned up and gave them £1000s to help them with their various projects.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
rue, I do think there's more to it than mere wealth and poverty, but that does seem to be a part of it.
As far as I know the church I'm referring to is very firmly middle/upper middle class... and white. So quote:
Race is obviously part of it too; this theology overwhelmingly appeals to black churchgoers.
I think I'll just stand well clear at this point. Like sheltering in a nuclear bunker clear.
[ 23. February 2014, 20:25: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
but there was a day when a guest preacher preached about Heaven, rich men, camels, needles, eyes of, and following the service, the said dear old gent went for the minister at the door and gave him hell.
I can't picture this. It seems to me that the rich old gent wouldn't have a leg to stand on. What did he say? "I know Jesus said all that, but I'm rich and I don't want to hear it?"
We have a few rich people in our local UMC that are pretty much carrying the whole shebang ( I know this only because I was treasurer for a few years.) I'm sure the eye of the needle sermon came along from time to time but they didn't take it personally. Surely the idea is, if you have a lot you need to give a lot, (which they were doing) isn't it?
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
You sort of want Dean Swift, who climbed into the pulpit, announced the text "He that hath pity upon the poor lendeth unto the LORD" three times, said: "You have heard the security; down with the dust!" and descended again.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
rue, I do think there's more to it than mere wealth and poverty, but that does seem to be a part of it.
As far as I know the church I'm referring to is very firmly middle/upper middle class... and white. So quote:
Race is obviously part of it too; this theology overwhelmingly appeals to black churchgoers.
I think I'll just stand well clear at this point. Like sheltering in a nuclear bunker clear.
I'm genuinely fascinated; why should a white upper-middle class church need a special theology to teach them how to get rich, if they're rich already? I don't understand that.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
This sort of thing can have tragic results. I've occasionally posted about my cousin and her daughter who were murdered by her husband; the story behind it is that his business failed and he thought (wrongly, tragically enough) that he would loose the house so rather than admit he was a failure he killed his wife and daughter. When asked why, he blamed it on God. God had abandoned him by not providing the money he needed for his family, therefore there was nothing else left for him to do.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Stercus Tauri
Shipmate
# 16668
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
but there was a day when a guest preacher preached about Heaven, rich men, camels, needles, eyes of, and following the service, the said dear old gent went for the minister at the door and gave him hell.
I can't picture this. It seems to me that the rich old gent wouldn't have a leg to stand on. What did he say? "I know Jesus said all that, but I'm rich and I don't want to hear it?"
We have a few rich people in our local UMC that are pretty much carrying the whole shebang ( I know this only because I was treasurer for a few years.) I'm sure the eye of the needle sermon came along from time to time but they didn't take it personally. Surely the idea is, if you have a lot you need to give a lot, (which they were doing) isn't it?
I think he felt that he was being got at, despite being generous with what he has, and despite his own work ethic. It's by no means a 'prosperity' church - it's a fairly traditional presbyterian outfit, and we sweat to balance the budget and fix the roof like everyone else. There are people who struggle to put $5 in the plate on Sunday, but they keep on doing it. Perhaps that's real prosperity: "To give as the Lord prospers us".
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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)
Posts: 905 | From: On the traditional lands of the Six Nations. | Registered: Sep 2011
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