Ship of Fools: We believe the Lord for Finding Money and...

Thread: We believe the Lord for Finding Money and... Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

Oh hooray. A church down the road appears to have adopted this "Giving Confession" to be said at their offering (I have not moved to California, but the link goes to the same text).

We believe the Lord for creative ideas? Well maybe. But "sales and commissions"? "checks in the mail"?? "finding money" [Paranoid]

At a stretch I might trust in the Lord to provide some of these things (as a freelancer, clients and customers are often in my prayers...), but I don't think screwing my eyes tight shut and believing as hard as I can will make a €500 note appear on the pavement.

And besides, if it's there, surely somebody else dropped it?

And why is this "declared" (as a "prayer of thanks") at the offering?

And above all - what happens when it doesn't work?

[Help]

[ 18. February 2014, 20:41: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

I obviously believe in the wrong Lord. [Paranoid]

Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :

If the postman puts next door's cheque through my letterbox by mistake, is that a Sign?

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

The Gospel according to The Beatles.

Posted by Nicolemr (# 28) on :

Regarding the OP, that's pretty grotesque.

Posted by Chill (# 13643) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
Regarding the OP, that's pretty grotesque.

I don't know I love it so much I’ve adapted it for British finical instructions, do you think it will work in that context? I'm thinking it could be recited to a chosen taxpayer at the start of each financial year.

PRAYER OF BANKS AND A CONFESSION OF SORTS

As we nick your offering we believe the Lord for:

Jobs and better Jobs (We bankers must be his chosen ones cause your out on your ear pal.)

Raises and Bonuses (the good times keep rolling!)

Benefits (not any more they are cancelled pal If your disabled you best roll out into the street where you can beg)

Sales and Commissions (like the NHS which is for sale and some fucking commission will be overseeing its dismemberment)

Favorable Settlements (I know they are our debts but do us a favour and settle them pal...)

Estates and Inheritances (That first ones where you will be living and the other is what we will be stealing)

Interests and Income (You pay our interest we will have your Income)

Rebates and Returns (no pal there a thing of the past for you)

Checks in the Mail (Yes that’s another thing we would like that cheque for the royal mail pal maybe you could ease it quantativly in our direction.)

Gifts and Surprises (bubble burst and bailouts blossom it definitely feels like someone’s birthday.)

Finding Money (Year well that isn’t really a problem)

Bills Paid Off (thanks again for that)

Bills Decrease (well mine do Yours pal…)

Creative Ideas (You’re not fucking kidding. I roll the dice you pick up the cheque well if I lose…)

Clients and Customers (Serfs and Servants, that’s you pal)

Blessings and Increase (and Increase and Increase and Increase and Increase and Increase and Increase and Increase and Increase and Increase and Increase and Increase…)

Thank you Lord for meeting all of my financial needs that I may have more than enough which is never enough….
That some may trickle downwards to and promote the gospel of pull the fucking ladder up and leave them twats to drown the better to stand on the pile of corpses and call it a brave new Island.

Victory for one percent or so * P.O. Box 666, and you pricks don’t think the devil alive and well.

Posted by Mertseger (# 4534) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
I obviously believe in the wrong Lord.

We have a large selection of alternatives available right now, if you're willing to sign a new contract.

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mertseger:

quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
I obviously believe in the wrong Lord.
We have a large selection of alternatives available right now, if you're willing to sign a new contract.

Thanks!

I'll peruse the lists carefully. Do any of them offer warranties, do you know?

Posted by PaulBC (# 13712) on :

Over here this gets called "name it & claim it " seems to be bad theology IMHO.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

Prosperity Gospel wankers.

Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on :

So . . . if the check that's allegedly in the mail, etc. etc. doesn't arrive, then we don't believe the Lord? What weird usage is that? These people obviously don't even understand what "belief" is or means.

As for the rest of their bullsh*t prayer, well, this is the sort of Christianity apt to persuade a lot of would-be "Christians" over to my "former" status.

What do you want to be their pastor got his clerical credentials by mail-order, suitable for framing, for about $8.95?

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

Tune: Mine Eyes Have Seen the Glory of the Coming of the Lord

Jesus put some money in the Bank of Montreal,
Jesus put some money in the Bank of Montreal,
Jesus put some money in the Bank of Montreal,
Jesus saves, Jesus saves, Jesus saves.
Glory, Glory compound interest
Glory, Glory compound interest
Glory, Glory compound interest
God loves it lots when you give us all your cash!

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Prosperity Gospel wankers.

One of the alarming things is that on the face of it, you might well not suspect this church of that bias.

quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
So . . . if the check that's allegedly in the mail, etc. etc. doesn't arrive, then we don't believe the Lord? What weird usage is that? These people obviously don't even understand what "belief" is or means.

It seems to mean "believe regardless of what actually happens".

What really gets me is that it seems to keep them quite happy. Perhaps they believe in the gospel of Pharrel Williams:

quote:
Clap along if you feel like happiness is the truth

There you are, that earworm was free.

Posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger (# 8891) on :

They seem to be saying that if I'm not rolling in cash like a pig in shit, my faith is defective?

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

I thought this bull crap died in 1989.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I thought this bull crap died in 1989.

There is always someone somewhere who never got the message.

This is pure Prosperity Gospel. And so pure Crap. If it is true, and God favours the rich, then I presume the Bankers, the Tories, and all their cronies are Gods Chosen People, and those who are poor are not.

Oh, and if this is the case, then cheating on benefits to get as much as you can is legitimate - God wouldn't let you get away with it otherwise, would he?

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

God. It's good for the economy.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I thought this bull crap died in 1989.
There is always someone somewhere who never got the message.

This is pure Prosperity Gospel. And so pure Crap. If it is true, and God favours the rich, then I presume the Bankers, the Tories, and all their cronies are Gods Chosen People, and those who are poor are not.

How else does one get one's poorer congregation to finance one's manor house and expensive car? When the peasants no longer believe in Divine Right, blind 'em with Prosperity Gospel. The beauty is, they think they will obtain wealth as well. Suckers.

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
God. It's good for the economy.

(looks around at the world's most cherished structures....)

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
If the postman puts next door's cheque through my letterbox by mistake, is that a Sign?

Only if you can undetectably erase the Payee details and insert your name instead. [Devil]

Posted by Erroneous Monk (# 10858) on :

Jesus saves, but he's not getting much interest.

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :

Janice Joplin said it best...

Oh Lord wont you buy me a Mercedes Benz...

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

I know many of the people in this church well. I honestly don't think they are looking for a particularly luxurious lifestyle, they just think that they can pray material blessing into being, or at least that they should pray expecting it because it is a legitimate sign that they are the kids of the King or some such. They seem to have entertained this illusion for some time now.

Posted by Mertseger (# 4534) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:

quote:
Originally posted by Mertseger:

quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
I obviously believe in the wrong Lord.
We have a large selection of alternatives available right now, if you're willing to sign a new contract.
Thanks!

I'll peruse the lists carefully. Do any of them offer warranties, do you know?

Yes! Almost all of our Service Providers are guaranteed not to smite you when properly propitiated (virgins/volcanos, etc.)...unless They change Their minds. They can be a bit capricious, I'll admit. But is your current Service Provider all that different? The former residents of Sodom, Gomorrah, Bethshemesh, and Samaria as well as the Midianites all lodged complaints, IIRC; though I hear there may have been some sort of change in management or policy since then.

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :

I first heard the whole idea of name it to claim it, put a picture of the car you want on the refrigerator and drool over it, from people I knew in the mid-seventies -- but they belonged to the church of Amway.*

* I just looked them up to see if they still existed and it seems they've linked themselves with the conservative Christians and the prosperity gospel. A match made in Hell if I ever heard of one.

Posted by The5thMary (# 12953) on :

This reminds me of this contestant I saw the other night on Food Network's show, "Chopped". One of the competing chefs had this long intro about his belief in Jesus and how Jesus was a huge part of his life, helped him with decisions, etc. etc. Anyway, during the episode he kept saying that he was going to win "Chopped" because Jesus had told him so... and then, guess what, he lost! As he was making the walk of shame he said, "I just don't understand why God would bring me this far and then let me get chopped! I guess He has something else in mind..."

This kind of thinking gets me so mad I want to scream. There are people in this world who really think that God is going to help them win a cooking show? God is going to help one football team defeat another and assure that Maura N. of El Paso, TX is going to win the state lottery? Really? To see this guy's crestfallen expression when he lost on the cooking show... he had said, before the actual competition took place, "Jesus assures His followers of victory!". Yeah, in a cooking competition. Right. What if there had been other Christians competing with this guy? How does Jesus choose who gets the $10,000? [Killing me]

Posted by The5thMary (# 12953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
Jesus saves, but he's not getting much interest.

Jesus Saves. Moses Invests.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

I've been thinking about this further, because years ago I heard this story from a Korean pastor (Yong Cho? aargh I can't remember the name for certain) about being 'pregnant with a bicycle'.

Here's the thing, though. He had a genuine need for the bicycle and could identify what use it was going to be in his ministry.

I think that's what is missing here. Sure, God provides things. But I reckon God would look at this kind of shopping list prayer and think "why should I?". It looks like people want this stuff so they can lead comfortable, satisfied lives, not because they're going to increase God's glory in the way that they're going to use this material wealth.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

Here's the anecdote, Orfeo (warning: eye-watering website layout).

While this story sounds pretty off-the-wall to me too (specifically "I have received a bicycle" when he hadn't yet and the creative interpretation of "calling things into being" on his own account), I agree with you about the distinction, and maybe you've helped put a finger on what's wrong with the prayer linked to in the OP; it's become a recipe and a shortcut rather than something hammered out in the crucible of a real spiritual struggle.

Again, I think the people I know praying it actually think (?) mostly in terms of things generally going well in life rather than a steadily rising bank balance.

The bit that does my head in is what happens when their life does not go well - or more intriguingly, I wonder whether cultivating this sort of attitude actually turns them into permanent optimists whatever happens, which I have to admit provokes some jealousy on my part.

Then I think it's stupid to be jealous of people who are deluded, and that does my head in some more, and that's why this is in Hell.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Here's the anecdote, Orfeo (warning: eye-watering website layout).

RIght in th middle of the banner along the top is a link for web design.

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:

The bit that does my head in is what happens when their life does not go well

The common response is not to lose faith, but to double-down. See End-of-the-World preachers as an example.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

Eutychus - I've seen it make the organisers become very dismissive of the people who provide the actual money, time and physical support for the organisation that is "supported by prayer" because God provides, doesn't he? In reality, what is keeping it going is donations from people in both time and money.

And thank yous to the people or organisations that have just given large donations isn't necessary because God did it.

Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :

It's akin to magic. Foul and hateful. Is it possible to align with the powers of this world to some "positive" affect? Yes.

Is is kingdom and cross shaped? Hell No.

The father of lies rubs his hands in glee.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

I think that's what is missing here. Sure, God provides things. But I reckon God would look at this kind of shopping list prayer and think "why should I?". It looks like people want this stuff so they can lead comfortable, satisfied lives, not because they're going to increase God's glory in the way that they're going to use this material wealth.

Several years back I was watching one of those celebrity poker shows, the lead singer from Creed (a popular Christian Band) was among the players. First of all, he started off with a pre interview about how he was doing this all for God and He was sure God would grant him victory. Second of all, every time something did not go his way, he would shout at the dealer. "No, that didn't beat me!" Like a seasoned, professional dealer with a crowd full of poker enthusiasts watching him would make up new rules just to throw him.

He lost-- he hung in there for a few hands, and if it were me, I would be praising God for allowing me a decent run, but this pudknocker kind of slouched off with some mumble about it being God's will.

Jeez, you'd think the better witness would be demonstrating great teamsmanship and how to enjoy the company of a table full of poker buddies. As it was, what I learned that day was that some Christians apparently think that having God as their Bestest Buddy entitles them to getting whatever they want (I have no doubt this dink conscripted legions of groupies-- er, loyal fans into praying on his victory as if the nation's salvation rested on it) and to name even the mildest departure from one's wishes as evidence of spiritual warfare. And that your belief that you are entitled to victory permits you to bark at innocent people, view them as demonic agents out to prevent God's will, and to sulk like a five year old when things don't go your way.Helluva witness, dude.

It was a poker game, for God's sake!

[ 21. February 2014, 23:21: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :

Janis Joplin nailed it in her song Oh lord won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
this pudknocker kind of slouched off with some mumble about it being God's will.

Whereas I suspect that the bunch in the church down the road from me would be rejoicing, and explaining that in fact God really did give them the victory, because...

I tell you, it seems to be less about material wealth for them at the end of the day than about a breed of over-cheerful optimism that manages to defy the facts completely. As I said, like Pharell Williams, they seem to believe that "happiness is the truth". Or like Slartibartfast, they would "rather be happy than right any day" - and unlike Slartibartfast, it seems to work. Seems to.

Posted by Drifting Star (# 12799) on :

When I was a teenager our Youth Group was told that when we prayed for something we should behave as though we had already received it, because that was showing faith.

I remember thinking that as most of the Youth Group members were praying that other members would ask them out, things were going to get awfully confusing around there.

Posted by MrsBeaky (# 17663) on :

This honestly makes me weep.

I've spent all week at an Anglican conference here in Nairobi with expat mission partners and East/ mid African partners. One of the things we've discussed is the alarming rise of prosperity teaching and the the hideous effect it has on society from the point of view of a gospel of justice
We recommitted ourselves together to eschew a theology of getting God to bless us and instead living lives focused on blessing others.
And I am completely humbled by what that costs many of my co-workers here.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

It seems obvious to me that poorer people are likely to be more attracted to prosperity gospel teaching, while those who are already doing moderately or fairly well, or who expect to move up the career ladder as a matter of course, aren't. The former want a religion that offers practical benefits as well as spiritual ones; the latter mainly focus on spiritual needs because their practical needs have more or less been met.

Improve both the educational achievements and the career prospects of the kinds of people who attend prosperity churches and they won't see a need for prosperity teaching any more.

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :

I grew up in a part of West Virginia that was the poorest place in the country at that time and although a tiny minority attended strange churches like the snake handlers, most of them were attending small non-denominational churches or Baptist.

None of the poor people I knew were into anything remotely like the prosperity gospel. Instead, they comforted themselves with the belief that the poorer one was on earth, the greater the reward in Heaven. Poverty, rather than prosperity was the sign of God's favor, with a fairly open prejudice against rich people who must surely be doing something sinful in those mansions.

I don't know what changed.

Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on :

To me the saddest part of the business is that there's just a faint seed of truth, albeit a deformed one, in this belief. It's just enough of a hook to keep people attached.

After all, isn't this the flip side of Christianity's alleged compassion for the poor? Real widespread compassion for the poor, expressed in terms of material help by those who have the means, surely ought to result in substantial relief from a few of their collective miseries, oughtn't it?

A whole congregation of the poor and baffled, many of whom will have worked very hard all their lives, in acceptance of that other (American?)* myth that hard work leads to success and a comfortable life is also at work here.

Where I live, people can work 12-hour days, 7 days a week, for 4 or 5 decades at 2 or 3 low-wage jobs at a whack, and still end up living out of a motel room or a car (for those lucky enough to have one, however temporarily) or a homeless shelter. No catastrophic ill luck or bad decision is required for such an outcome (though either of the latter will certainly hasten people's arrival at a shelter's threshhold).

*I've never lived outside the U.S. so perhaps this mythology doesn't flourish elsewhere. But until there's a substantial narrowing of the gap between the minimum wage and an actual living wage, the "work-hard-&-you'll-be-fine" notion remains nothing but a myth.

What I can't understand is the apparent inability to do the simple arithmetic involved in the vast gulf between low-wage earnings and the costs of very basic, just-adequate, reasonably-secure shelter. I can't claim to be poor, but my own current shelter costs (rent & heat) consume about 65% of my take-home -- and I'm far better off than many.

[ 23. February 2014, 14:19: Message edited by: Porridge ]

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

In church this morning there was, fairly unusually for us, quite a lengthy testimony about someone who had got an unexpected raise and two unexpected bonuses at work. I was feeling very embarassed about this thread and mouthing "checks in the mail" to Mrs Eutychus.

Then, before going to testify about some other, harder things to deal with, the testifier said: "of course all that's great but of course we can't expect God to do that kind of thing all the time: what this told me is that he will provide for our needs". I think the difference is in that attitude somewhere.

[ 23. February 2014, 17:00: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
It seems obvious to me that poorer people are likely to be more attracted to prosperity gospel teaching, while those who are already doing moderately or fairly well, or who expect to move up the career ladder as a matter of course, aren't. The former want a religion that offers practical benefits as well as spiritual ones; the latter mainly focus on spiritual needs because their practical needs have more or less been met.

Improve both the educational achievements and the career prospects of the kinds of people who attend prosperity churches and they won't see a need for prosperity teaching any more.

A bit of completely unscientific research makes me disagree with that observation... I know a few quite wealthy people in a couple of churches, and one, I know, feels he has been rewarded by God for taking risks. Another has worked hard for it and shares it with the church, but there was a day when a guest preacher preached about Heaven, rich men, camels, needles, eyes of, and following the service, the said dear old gent went for the minister at the door and gave him hell.

We have a diverse congregation, and it seems to me that the poorer people don't pray for wealth. Unlike many of us, they have a good grasp of the meaning of 'enough', and that's what they hope and pray for. I pray that some day, I can figure that out, too.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Drifting Star:

I remember thinking that as most of the Youth Group members were praying that other members would ask them out, things were going to get awfully confusing around there.

See, That! That is the litmus test, right there. If name it and claim it worked, Matt Smith and I would be running a preschool together in Cotati by now.

Wait, no--Monte Rio.

There were actually a couple guys in our Young Adult Group who seemed to be trying to do the name it and claim it thing with the women in the group--"The Lord has been speaking to me, and The Lord thinks you need a good Christian man to guide and protect you, because these losers you have been dating are proof positive that you are not hearing the Lord speak."

So not making that up. And yeah, they had just about as much success with that as you might predict.

Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :

quote:
the said dear old gent went for the minister at the door and gave him hell.

Sounds like the minister got a far more punchy assurance that his message hit the target, than the more pleasant but somehow unconvincing 'nice sermon, vicar'!

And what Pyx_e said.

[ 23. February 2014, 18:36: Message edited by: mark_in_manchester ]

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
It seems obvious to me that poorer people are likely to be more attracted to prosperity gospel teaching, while those who are already doing moderately or fairly well, or who expect to move up the career ladder as a matter of course, aren't. The former want a religion that offers practical benefits as well as spiritual ones; the latter mainly focus on spiritual needs because their practical needs have more or less been met.

Improve both the educational achievements and the career prospects of the kinds of people who attend prosperity churches and they won't see a need for prosperity teaching any more.
A bit of completely unscientific research makes me disagree with that observation... I know a few quite wealthy people in a couple of churches, and one, I know, feels he has been rewarded by God for taking risks. Another has worked hard for it and shares it with the church, but there was a day when a guest preacher preached about Heaven, rich men, camels, needles, eyes of, and following the service, the said dear old gent went for the minister at the door and gave him hell.

We have a diverse congregation, and it seems to me that the poorer people don't pray for wealth. Unlike many of us, they have a good grasp of the meaning of 'enough', and that's what they hope and pray for. I pray that some day, I can figure that out, too.

True, I do think there's more to it than mere wealth and poverty, but that does seem to be a part of it. Race is obviously part of it too; this theology overwhelmingly appeals to black churchgoers. This can't be a coincidence when you consider that black people are often financially disadvantaged around the world.

Yet I can imagine that some of the members of a prosperity church would be fairly well-off. After all, someone in the congregation would have to be able to prove to the others that this way of thinking works! And to become successful by these means would probably bind someone even more closely to the church that made it all possible.

Also, of course, not all 'poor people' are the same. Some might still have faith in conventional means to raise themselves out of poverty. Some might prefer historical denominations over prosperity churches precisely because the former are deemed to be more respectable institutions, and poor people often struggle hard to remain respectable when their circumstances might be pushing them the other way.

BTW, I can't understand why a guest preacher at a prosperity church would preach against wealth. Was he from another denomination? Actually, I'm a bit cynical about the anti-wealth attitude in some circles, because most of the 'ordinary' churches I've come across seem to be permanently short of money. They're always asking for more. Most churches would be delighted if a multi-millionaire turned up and gave them £1000s to help them with their various projects.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
rue, I do think there's more to it than mere wealth and poverty, but that does seem to be a part of it.

As far as I know the church I'm referring to is very firmly middle/upper middle class... and white. So

quote:
Race is obviously part of it too; this theology overwhelmingly appeals to black churchgoers.

I think I'll just stand well clear at this point. Like sheltering in a nuclear bunker clear.

[ 23. February 2014, 20:25: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
but there was a day when a guest preacher preached about Heaven, rich men, camels, needles, eyes of, and following the service, the said dear old gent went for the minister at the door and gave him hell.

I can't picture this. It seems to me that the rich old gent wouldn't have a leg to stand on. What did he say? "I know Jesus said all that, but I'm rich and I don't want to hear it?"

We have a few rich people in our local UMC that are pretty much carrying the whole shebang ( I know this only because I was treasurer for a few years.) I'm sure the eye of the needle sermon came along from time to time but they didn't take it personally. Surely the idea is, if you have a lot you need to give a lot, (which they were doing) isn't it?

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :

You sort of want Dean Swift, who climbed into the pulpit, announced the text "He that hath pity upon the poor lendeth unto the LORD" three times, said: "You have heard the security; down with the dust!" and descended again.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
rue, I do think there's more to it than mere wealth and poverty, but that does seem to be a part of it.
As far as I know the church I'm referring to is very firmly middle/upper middle class... and white. So
quote:
Race is obviously part of it too; this theology overwhelmingly appeals to black churchgoers.

I think I'll just stand well clear at this point. Like sheltering in a nuclear bunker clear.

I'm genuinely fascinated; why should a white upper-middle class church need a special theology to teach them how to get rich, if they're rich already? I don't understand that.

Posted by Nicolemr (# 28) on :

This sort of thing can have tragic results. I've occasionally posted about my cousin and her daughter who were murdered by her husband; the story behind it is that his business failed and he thought (wrongly, tragically enough) that he would loose the house so rather than admit he was a failure he killed his wife and daughter. When asked why, he blamed it on God. God had abandoned him by not providing the money he needed for his family, therefore there was nothing else left for him to do.

Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:

quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
but there was a day when a guest preacher preached about Heaven, rich men, camels, needles, eyes of, and following the service, the said dear old gent went for the minister at the door and gave him hell.

I can't picture this. It seems to me that the rich old gent wouldn't have a leg to stand on. What did he say? "I know Jesus said all that, but I'm rich and I don't want to hear it?"

We have a few rich people in our local UMC that are pretty much carrying the whole shebang ( I know this only because I was treasurer for a few years.) I'm sure the eye of the needle sermon came along from time to time but they didn't take it personally. Surely the idea is, if you have a lot you need to give a lot, (which they were doing) isn't it?

I think he felt that he was being got at, despite being generous with what he has, and despite his own work ethic. It's by no means a 'prosperity' church - it's a fairly traditional presbyterian outfit, and we sweat to balance the budget and fix the roof like everyone else. There are people who struggle to put $5 in the plate on Sunday, but they keep on doing it. Perhaps that's real prosperity: "To give as the Lord prospers us".

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

Okay, I'm going to admit that my statements above about race and class are deeply problematic (no, not necessarily total crap, though!) because they depend firstly on how we define the 'Prosperity Gospel' and on how diffusive we think its influence is, and secondly on the cultural context; the Prosperity Gospel may mean somewhat different things in the USA, Africa, the UK, Continental Europe, etc....

Thanks for this thread, actually, because it's led me to some useful websites and documents.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I'm genuinely fascinated; why should a white upper-middle class church need a special theology to teach them how to get rich, if they're rich already? I don't understand that.

As I've tried to say more than once on this thread, I don't think it's so much about specifically getting financially richer as about a general mindset in which things work out better and better in every area of life because, well, we are bringing in the Kingdom of God if we only believe hard enough. The main obstacle to the Kingdom of God coming in supernatural, spiritual and material fullness being our reluctance to dream it into being.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

In my experience, it is not the case that the people most obsessed with money are the people who don't have it.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

Well, maybe it's for the best that these well-heeled Christians keep to their own churches, where they can congratulate each other on how much God has blessed them. So long as poorer people aren't around to get their hopes raised unhappily, noone gets hurt....

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

Huh.
My former minister spent a good deal of time telling a bunch lower middle class people that his success in life had to do directly with his choice to begin tithing (and not that he married a wealthy Silicon Valley exec), and told us that we were stealing form God if we couldn't make out tithe. The tithe fro the gross, you understand.

He also negotiated his salary upwards to include his tithe, and suggested we all do the same.

My response to him was,"Ten percent isn't good enough," and instead of primly setting aside a tithe, we should consider every dollar we had as something God gave us and make all of our spending choices accordingly. Because the fact of the matter is that God might have plans for those dollars that weren't restricted to one particular congregation. (E.g., how is a teacher who pays out of pocket for her students' school supplies not tithing?)

we wonder how loonies like Phelps come up with the idea that sin is punished by illness, or natural catastrophe. That is prosperity gospel That moron Star Jones, left Sumatra days before the Tsunami hit in 2004, and she crowed that this was how the Lord looked after those who lived a Godly life. Pat Robinson stood on the Congress floor and sneered that the people suffering one of the worst epidemics of the 20th century were "reaping the whirlwind"-- that kind of crap is the byproduct of the prosperity crap being preached in the 80's.

You know, when everybody was scrambling to be "born again"? well who wouldn't want to be 'born again' if there was such a great pay-off.

So, thinking that this stuff can safely stay in safe little prosperity churches is hugely naive-- these people come out of those churches and effect policy in ways that help them reinforce their belief that they have societal entitlements based on what lifestyle they have chosen. A virus spread all over a nation because key people believed the right people were getting it. People are fighting against women having reasonable access to birth control because they want to see evidence that they are suffering the consequence of their "sin."

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I've been thinking about this further, because years ago I heard this story from a Korean pastor (Yong Cho? aargh I can't remember the name for certain) about being 'pregnant with a bicycle'.

Here's the thing, though. He had a genuine need for the bicycle and could identify what use it was going to be in his ministry.

Oh dear. This just in.

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Huh.
My former minister spent a good deal of time telling a bunch lower middle class people that his success in life had to do directly with his choice to begin tithing (and not that he married a wealthy Silicon Valley exec), and told us that we were stealing form God if we couldn't make out tithe. The tithe fro the gross, you understand.

Clearly, God joined him with a wealthy exec so he could tithe HER money.

quote:
He also negotiated his salary upwards to include his tithe, and suggested we all do the same.

(Cynically) So he either didn't want any inconvenience from tithing, or felt he was being "kept" by his wife's tithing?

quote:
My response to him was,"Ten percent isn't good enough," and instead of primly setting aside a tithe, we should consider every dollar we had as something God gave us and make all of our spending choices accordingly. Because the fact of the matter is that God might have plans for those dollars that weren't restricted to one particular congregation. (E.g., how is a teacher who pays out of pocket for her students' school supplies not tithing?)

Makes good sense/cents.

quote:
we wonder how loonies like Phelps come up with the idea that sin is punished by illness, or natural catastrophe. That is prosperity gospel That moron Star Jones, left Sumatra days before the Tsunami hit in 2004, and she crowed that this was how the Lord looked after those who lived a Godly life. Pat Robinson stood on the Congress floor and sneered that the people suffering one of the worst epidemics of the 20th century were "reaping the whirlwind"-- that kind of crap is the byproduct of the prosperity crap being preached in the 80's.

Yes, but it's not just Christian nutcases that come up with this stuff. It shows up all over, in different guises, and it's due to basic human fears: Do I have enough to survive? Will that continue? Am I safe? Will random things hit me? How can I prevent that? Plus a good dose of the Prodigal Son's big brother. (I.e., "*I'm* the good one. He's pulled a lot of crap. I've done everything you asked. When will *I* get rewarded? Will I be treated fairly, given that your priorities are so screwed up that you actually *forgave* that asshole?" Etc.)

One consequence of that is believing "hey, an awful thing happened to that person over there; I'm afraid it could happen to me; but God wouldn't do that to me...I hope; so that person must've done something to deserve it; so I'm safe--whew!"

People tend to be afraid of randomness, so they often hold on to a belief that all things are under the control of God/dess/Universe, or themselves.

quote:
You know, when everybody was scrambling to be "born again"? well who wouldn't want to be 'born again' if there was such a great pay-off.

Actually, IME, lots of born-again folks and churches don't believe in that kind of pay-off in this world. I grew up in a church that emphasized being born again.

Belief in dispensationalism might have been a factor. (Ages/times/seasons for various things: Age of Law, Age of Grace.) The infrequency of healing in modern times was chalked up to that.

quote:
So, thinking that this stuff can safely stay in safe little prosperity churches is hugely naive-- these people come out of those churches and effect policy in ways that help them reinforce their belief that they have societal entitlements based on what lifestyle they have chosen. A virus spread all over a nation because key people believed the right people were getting it. People are fighting against women having reasonable access to birth control because they want to see evidence that they are suffering the consequence of their "sin."

Yes, and...

Fear and frustration were factors in the creation of and power grab by the Christian Right. ("People don't respect Christians, anymore. Sinners and prodigals are running the show. The world is changing, we don't understand it, and we don't like it! What about America's Manifest Destiny? We're the righteous--shouldn't we take the country back for our--that is, for God?" And then there are the Dominionists. (Shudder.))

Yes, there definitely were people who thought that gay men deserved HIV/AIDS, and even delighted in what was happening. But there were others, I think, who were in an honest moral, religious, and psychological tangle. (However off-base those beliefs were.) And lots of folks were simply terrified.

Re birth control: yes, and I suspect many of the Congress critters and other "notable" people who say those things are in the "abortion is bad; unmarried sex is bad; men should have sex any time they want; women only get pregnant if they want to, and thus don't need contraception; so if they do get pregnant, it's their own fault--and why should we help take care of their kids?" camp. Which, of course, would go right out the window if it happened to *them*. They should be forced to read "The Scarlet Letter" over and over, until they get it.

What a messed-up species we are.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I've been thinking about this further, because years ago I heard this story from a Korean pastor (Yong Cho? aargh I can't remember the name for certain) about being 'pregnant with a bicycle'.

Here's the thing, though. He had a genuine need for the bicycle and could identify what use it was going to be in his ministry.
Oh dear. This just in.

Ouch. This is what happens when I don't stay in bible study groups and keep up with the current gossip.

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :

As for Kelly's thoughts: I think this is true. An awful lot of Christians seem to see Christianity as some kind of reward system. Good outcomes of me = how holy and close to God I am. Bad outcomes of someone I don't like = reaping the benefits of sin.

Which is a very satisfying system, I'm sure. It's also complete anathema to Christianity. It's some kind of notion of karma or good works Judaism, that requires totally ignoring whole swathes of the New Testament and the book of Job.

I've got no idea how such people cope with the lectionary giving them Luke 13:1-5, or Jesus' emphatic rejection that a man was born blind because someone sinned, but then that would be assuming such people actually read the Bible with any attention.

Posted by George Spigot (# 253) on :

quote:
We believe the Lord for creative ideas?

Does that even make sense grammatically? My grasp of grammar isn't very good so I assume it does.

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

orfeo:

quote:
I've got no idea how such people cope with the lectionary giving them Luke 13:1-5, or Jesus' emphatic rejection that a man was born blind because someone sinned, but then that would be assuming such people actually read the Bible with any attention.

I don't think many of these churches go by a lectionary. That's the beauty of pick&choose Bible reading. There are enough words in the Bible to support any cockeyed theology, especially if you don't read it in context but pick it apart verse by verse. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Which is a very satisfying system, I'm sure. It's also complete anathema to Christianity. It's some kind of notion of karma . . .

Ah, good call. I recall being introduced to a New Age couple some while back, and while asking the wife if she could speak up a little because of my hearing impairment, she gazed at me and said, "Oh. You must have needed to be deaf."

How she knew this I can't say; we'd only just met. But further conversation revealed that in her universe, people only suffer illness, injury, ill-luck or inconvenience because they "need" these things for some sort of cosmic balance to be maintained.

She was, by profession, a school guidance counselor. I wonder if she counseled her students along these lines.

[Help]

[ 25. February 2014, 17:52: Message edited by: Porridge ]

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

Holy fuck. "Needed to be deaf?"
"The Lord it telling me you to need to bleed. Now, hold still..."

[ 25. February 2014, 20:57: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

Posted by Stercus Tauri (# 16668) on :

Glad someone finally understands. Yes - I really needed that effing cancer.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
further conversation revealed that in her universe, people only suffer illness, injury, ill-luck or inconvenience because they "need" these things for some sort of cosmic balance to be maintained.

That's odd (I mean, apart from the oddity of living in that kind of universe).

I heard this sentiment for the first time ever from someone I was speaking to yesterday: "whatever happens is the best that can possibly happen".

After a moment of [Paranoid]

I started wondering what, if anything, was the functional difference between that and "all things work together for the good of those who love God".

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
further conversation revealed that in her universe, people only suffer illness, injury, ill-luck or inconvenience because they "need" these things for some sort of cosmic balance to be maintained.
That's odd (I mean, apart from the oddity of living in that kind of universe).

I heard this sentiment for the first time ever from someone I was speaking to yesterday: "whatever happens is the best that can possibly happen".

After a moment of I started wondering what, if anything, was the functional difference between that and "all things work together for the good of those who love God".

How very Modern and Enlightened! The first thing that came to my mind was Voltaire and Candide. Then I googled "best of all possible worlds" and got this.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I've been thinking about this further, because years ago I heard this story from a Korean pastor (Yong Cho? aargh I can't remember the name for certain) about being 'pregnant with a bicycle'.

Here's the thing, though. He had a genuine need for the bicycle and could identify what use it was going to be in his ministry.
Oh dear. This just in.
Ouch. This is what happens when I don't stay in bible study groups and keep up with the current gossip.

Here's a more recent take. Almost worth another thread.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:

I heard this sentiment for the first time ever from someone I was speaking to yesterday: "whatever happens is the best that can possibly happen".

I am confused, I thought "everything happens for a reason" AKA "it is all part of God's plan" was a fairly common Christian philosophy. I've heard it many times, including on the Ship.

Posted by Rev per Minute (# 69) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:

I heard this sentiment for the first time ever from someone I was speaking to yesterday: "whatever happens is the best that can possibly happen".
I am confused, I thought "everything happens for a reason" AKA "it is all part of God's plan" was a fairly common Christian philosophy. I've heard it many times, including on the Ship.

But not usually said seriously. It may be that God can show us how to make the best of our pains and illnesses, but to say 'it's part of God's plan' - effectively 'God did this' - has no basis in the Gospels or any understanding as said above.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

It's the sort of thing you can say about your own troubles if it helps you to deal with them mentally, but it's impolite to say it to someone else, especially if it's likely to make them feel worse. If you don't know the person you're talking to, you have no idea how they'll take it.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

There is a lot of stuff like this. Stuff that is excellent self- talk advice, but turns you into an utter asshole if you aim it at someone else.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Rev per Minute:

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I am confused, I thought "everything happens for a reason" AKA "it is all part of God's plan" was a fairly common Christian philosophy. I've heard it many times, including on the Ship.
But not usually said seriously. It may be that God can show us how to make the best of our pains and illnesses, but to say 'it's part of God's plan' - effectively 'God did this' - has no basis in the Gospels or any understanding as said above.

I've heard it from people who were serious. Most of them.

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
There is a lot of stuff like this. Stuff that is excellent self- talk advice, but turns you into an utter asshole if you aim it at someone else.

I do not agree that it is excellent even when self directed. For the ultimate conclusion to this thinking is that your God is an utter bastard. Understand, I do not think this is the proper conclusion from reading the bible as a coherent whole.
As far as uttering it to other people, It makes the utterer less than helpful, potentially harmful. But I have heard it said to others with the desire to comfort. Indeed, most of those I have seen use this philosophy have meant to comfort themselves or others, so I would have difficulty calling them arseholes. Well, to be completely honest, I have difficulty not calling them such. But I would feel bad afterward since their intent was to help.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

'K, maybe I should have said it is an assholey statement. I would have an urge to apply a hole puncher to my tongue if I heard it coming out of my mouth.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

Hole punch. Terrific, now I have to restrain myself from using one of those on the idiots.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I do not agree that it is excellent even when self directed. For the ultimate conclusion to this thinking is that your God is an utter bastard. Understand, I do not think this is the proper conclusion from reading the bible as a coherent whole.

Nah, that's too dogmatic for me. If it helps me to believe that God can and will use my troubles for good, that's my business. If that makes God out to be a bastard then the whole of his flawed creation makes him out to be a bastard. So be it. This is the life he's given me, whether good or bad, and I have to make of it what I can; I believe he's there helping me, so I don't have to do it alone.

Other people may have their own more helpful ways of dealing spiritually with their troubles.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

The way a priest phrased it to me was God is not in the cause of the problem, but in helping you overcome it.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

That priest was clearly trying to hard not to make God out to be a total bastard!

For me, it feels easier and more logical to see God as the originator of everything, both good and evil, in the sense that he created this world and all its actors, whether natural or supernatural, benign, malign or a mixture of both. So you could say that 'my' God is a more unpleasant character, although I don't see it like that.

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