Thread: Doubting Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.
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Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on
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Further to discussion in The Styx - I thought I would start this thread.
I find my faith fluctuates, I find it like looking at a visual illusion , I look at things one way and its there, another and it vanishes.
I am troubled by the problem of evil, the fraudulent nature of any modern miracle actually investigated, the prejudice and violence perpetrated in the name of religion, and the apparent lack of faith to change how most people live.
Conversely, I wonder if we are becoming secularised because the values conveyed by faith have become unremarkable - perhaps that is success ?
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
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All those things. And the fact that I do not find that Christians are, on average, any less obnoxious and unpleasant than any other people; indeed, there are those for whom the certainty of faith appears to give license to be a complete and utter arsehole. It's like the experiment to heal the human soul has failed.
[ 03. January 2014, 18:24: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
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Over on A Year Without God , Anteater saith:
quote:
I am cautious about any claim that we know what it feels like to be with(out) God, or how it would feel to be "spending life with(out) God". I seem to detect some disappointment especially as your profile shows you as an Anglican, so it's hard to see you as a determined atheist.
I don't think that many people have such a full experience of God in this life, such that it would be inconceivable to view it as a life without God. Atheism is perfectly consistent and by no means implausible, IMHO, although I definitely do not believe it.
This is why I am still insistent that it makes no sense to try and design an experiment to prove anything about God, although I fully admit this contradicts passages from the scriptures like Elijah and the Priests of Baal.
I'd be surprised if it ever crossed your mind that God exists as a being in the same realm that we do, nor do I imagine you worrying overly about San Juan de la Cruz defining God as "nada" or others questioning the appropriateness of existence as applied to God. I wish it were easier to experience God, but it isn't, and I think we just have to "suck that up" if I may strive to be contemporary.
Yes. Disappointment. Good word. I thought, decades ago when I left atheism for Christianity, that by now I'd have sufficient experience of God - whatever form that might take - to have the sort of confidence in his existence that I see a lot of people having.
I didn't. And I don't.
All I really have is too much emotional capital sunk into the faith to easily give it up, and a nagging fear of doing so unless and until I'm absolutely sure it really is irrational bullshit. And a small quiet hope, born of desperation.
Posted by Nicodemia (# 4756) on
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Well thank you, Doublethink - I don't think I would have dared!
My problem is reconciling what we are told about God, either from the Bible or from hearing long sermons, with what I read in (reputable) scientific journels. Why would a God who created such a vast, vast universe be interested in a lump of rock orbiting a very ordinary star in a smallish galaxy?
To add to this, to me, insoluble paradox, i now have no sense of God being with me. I find it almost impossible to pray, and feel hypocritical if I try. But try I do, as family situations are pretty dire and desperately need prayer. Or something.
I really need to find some sort of resoution, or peace about a situation which is probably quite beyond explanation.
I am wary of pouring out my problems on a public board. I tried to explain myself at my Home Group, but was asked, in all sincerity as to why I read those scientific journals if they made me have doubts! This seemed to me to be like shutting ones ears and singing la-la-la!
And yes I am in an Evangelical church. Not because I believe in all that they do and believe but because they are a friendly bunch with things going on in the week, and I get very lonely. I did go to a MOTR CofE church but rapidly lost God there though I stayed there probably too long
Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on
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None of the things that have been mentioned so far bothers me. What does, increasingly, from time to time is that I simply can't see the point of any of it- the whole creation malarkey. Frankly, it just doesn't seem to me to be worth the trouble of creating, or the trouble that we have to take to keep our bit of it going.
Once you grant the premise that there is somehwere a point to it all, other things make sense to me. But quite often I'm buggered if I can see why it had to be there in the first place.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicodemia:
Why would a God who created such a vast, vast universe be interested in a lump of rock orbiting a very ordinary star in a smallish galaxy?
My sense of God is quite weak, but (not being a scientist) I don't consider the ordinariness of the earth or the smallness of the galaxy to be one of my issues. After all, the Bible itself stresses how God takes the small, ordinary things and imbues them with significance. I suppose I'm hoping that God also sees the small, ordinary me and finds me significant in some way. It's a case of finding out what I should be doing to serve him in order for this significance to be manifest....
I'm between churches now, but I've been in MOTR churches for most of my life. I too should probably have left sooner. But I don't know what I'd have to offer a more evangelical church at this point. I don't want to commit myself to a particular church unless I feel I have a role to play there, but I don't know how an evangelical church would cope with the likes of me filling some sort of little niche. IME churches want your labour, but not so much your ideas or your concerns. I'd expect that to be true of the evangelical as well as the MOTR side of things.
I urgently need to find a new and impelling way of reading the Bible because it's a text that feeds faith. As for prayer, my preferred way is to pray while walking. In the dark, if possible.
Posted by mrs whibley (# 4798) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicodemia:
Well thank you, Doublethink - I don't think I would have dared!
My problem is reconciling what we are told about God, either from the Bible or from hearing long sermons, with what I read in (reputable) scientific journels. Why would a God who created such a vast, vast universe be interested in a lump of rock orbiting a very ordinary star in a smallish galaxy?
To add to this, to me, insoluble paradox, i now have no sense of God being with me. I find it almost impossible to pray, and feel hypocritical if I try. But try I do, as family situations are pretty dire and desperately need prayer. Or something.
I really need to find some sort of resoution, or peace about a situation which is probably quite beyond explanation.
I hope you will find this encouraging, rather than glib:
I'm a scientist, and to me this is not really a problem. It seems clear to me that in order for the solar system, Earth, and all the necessary chemical elements, not to mention the various subatomic forces, to be present, we need to be set in the mega-ecosystem which is the universe as we know it. And I see no barrier to God creating multitudes of 'creations' within that universe - although it seems unlikely that He would let us meet them in this life! Now, there is no proof that God had a hand in this at all - but if He created the cosmos, I'm sure it would be this one He would create.
I do have trouble with time, rather than space though. Why did God rather randomly choose a point around 2000 years ago to save creation from itself? What about all the non-Jews before that point? I don't really go in for dispensations, so this tends to lead me to universalism, in which case all the palaver seems rather pointless. Plus all the stuff Doublethink said.
And then I go and read something, maybe some Rob Bell, or somebody shares an insight at Bible study, or I sing an old hymn, or I get angry at some injustice, and I glimpse - just out of the corner of my eye, or in a glass darkly, what all this may be about after all.
Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on
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My problem is not so much faith in God, as faith in the church. I have seen enough shit from the institutional church, and from church leadership, that it has become nearly impossible to say the bit in the Creed,"I believe... in the holy Christian church." If it exists, it is invisible indeed!
So right now I am deliberately looking to find a poor, tiny, decreasing congregation with nothing to recommend it but love. I think I may have found it, but we'll see. Right now I am two-timing our large "successful" host congregation by sneaking around with a "nothing" congregation behind their backs.
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on
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Having been a spiky Anglo-Catholic with a great certainty of faith up until I was in my early thirties I then shifted, over a period of years, towards Quakerism of the UK sort. Years ago my Quaker friend Ann said to me that she found the God image helpful but not the Jesus image and I found this immensely helpful. I don't think I qualify as Christian really any more, despite my church attendance, etc., but I do find the God image makes sense to me but then I have decided that things don't really need to make sense. It's a bit like that old quote that "we are put on this Earth to help others, what the others are here for I have no idea!"
I suppose that in the end my faith is based on the current title of the British thread - Keep Calm and Carry On.
I hope that it will all become clear in time.
Posted by Latchkey Kid (# 12444) on
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I had doubts from 1980 to about 2005. I felt as though God had said "You are on your own now." I plodded on with the help of some internet forums like SOF until I came across RLP who said "I may not have faith, but I can be faithful". YMMV but that was good enough for me. I was found by a small house church which provides the fellowship I need, even if my theology is more narrative and theirs is propositional. I have been blessed this year through the leading of the Lord's Supper falling to me.
I don't always believe God exists, but I always believe God is love. It's a faith I have been given. I don't claim any credit for it, and I can't criticise people who haven't been given it, or who believe in another faith tradition, whether Christian or some other.
Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on
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My current position is that I have no problems believing in God - the numinous, the spiritual. I do have problems with the church, which I have left, and the way that the church wants to define this and control this.
I do not know what the nature of God is. I would call myself an evangelical, and so I believe that the bible does give us insight. But we simplify and codify it, and lose the wonder.
As Karl said, Christians are not any better than other people, and a faith that does not change the person is no faith at all. I left church because a) church was no longer helping my spiritual growth, rather it was damaging it; and b) the church has nothing to do with Christianity, despite the claims.
Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on
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Posted by Nic:
quote:
Why would a God who created such a vast, vast universe be interested in a lump of rock orbiting a very ordinary star in a smallish galaxy?
I have this doubt regularly, and I think there is only one answer to it: love. It's not an answer that leaves me comfortable either. In a strange sort of way it's a bit frightening, a little too much to bear. It is very difficult to explain to people in a rational sort of way that they can get a handle on, especially those Christians who think this is a wonderful thing, yet in reality is a choice between a gulf of nothingness and a surrender to something too vast to even contemplate.
Posted by Huia (# 3473) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
I don't always believe God exists, but I always believe God is love.
Thank-you, this encapsulates my belief exactly. I've never been able to sum it up as neatly as this.
Huia
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
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Doublethink
An excellent idea for a thread! I like your idea of a visual illusion, as for most of my life I have found this alternation between seeing God very clearly, and not seeing God at all. I have got used to it now, and it is just a kind of rhythm in my life. I don't really see it as doubting, it is just another kind of Weltanschauung (world-view). So I have a kind of stereo vision, I suppose, although the two images don't really cohere.
As others have said, it is religion that bugs me rather than God, in the sense, that a lot of religious stuff is quite off-putting. Well, humans are messy! Sometimes religion strikes me as a barrier to God - there, I've said it.
Sometimes I am half-way to rejecting Christianity (whatever that means), and then something in it catches my attention, or moves me deeply, and I don't quit after all.
Posted by Nicodemia (# 4756) on
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quote:
I don't always believe God exists, but I always believe God is love.
quote:
in reality is a choice between a gulf of nothingness and a surrender to something too vast to even contemplate.
Thank you Latchkeykid and Fletcher christian. I think that these are the closest to what I believe, and it is enormously encouraging to find others believe these rather vague notions too!
If I can hang on to these beliefs, then I think I can survive the Evangelical church! I know I am not alone! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by Alicïa (# 7668) on
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I have no problems with believing in God and Jesus, and I do, I have had problems in finding a church that I can believe in or feel I belong to. I think I probably would fit into to UK Quakerism / or perhaps Universalism there is no such meeting place locally (elsewhere in the city yes but travel times put me off from frequent attendance)
Also I don't believe in the inerrancy of the bible. While I believe there are truths in it I cannot possibly accept that it is all true and infallable.
I don't claim to understand God or the nature of God, but I tend to follow what the gospels say about the person of Jesus which leads me to believe that God is love.
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
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I am the opposite Alicïa - I love my Church and the work it does and the sense of community/working together it gives me.
My hold on God, however, gets more difficult as time passes. The longer away my Dad's death and Mum's onset of dementia become. I didn't realise just how much the two of them grounded my faith.
I still lead worship there, but I'm beginning to feel a fraud.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I left church because a) church was no longer helping my spiritual growth, rather it was damaging it; and b) the church has nothing to do with Christianity, despite the claims.
I have many issues with the way we do church, and I'm now without a church to call my own, but I'm worried about falling out of the habit of going to church entirely; Paul did say that Christians shouldn't stop meeting together. I've resolved this problem for now by church hopping, something I once frowned upon.
More spiritual cultures than ours are able to maintain faith and religious teaching in the public square and in the home without individuals needing to be 'in church' every week or month. I've come across this myself. But in British culture, not being involved in an intentional Christian community just seems to have a corrosive effect on our faith over time. I don't want create more spiritual problems for myself by letting this happen.
quote:
I would call myself an evangelical, and so I believe that the bible does give us insight. But we simplify and codify it, and lose the wonder.
All engaged Christians claim to find insight in the Bible, not just evangelicals, but wonder and doubt both seem to be more manageable in highly sacramental Christianity than in evangelicalism. Perhaps it's because a sacramental approach relies on formal rituals and liturgies rather than on individual feelings and thoughts.
It could be that doubting evangelicals need to move further up the candle for a while. It's easier for me at the moment to cope with Evensong than with the more demanding forms of worship elsewhere.
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
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It's participation that's difficult. Participation in the Charevo worship that's common these days down the candle is particularly hard; you can hardly clap and dance and all the rest of it if it's just words you don't really believe, or which intellectually you assent to in part but have no emotional reaction to.
I led one of the carols at our carol service before Christmas. I was able to do this because I believe in singing carols, quite independently or whether or not I believe the words, because I have an emotional attachment to them - they're part of my Christmas from when I was a wee lad and take me back to tinsel and lights and excitement that Christmas used to be about before alas adulthood and the associated reality took hold. They're not, for me, very much about God.
/tangent
It's much harder if I'm asked to do a reading; harder still were I asked to lead intercessions; I'd probably have to refuse; I'd feel such a fraud leading people to petition the ceiling, which is how it largely feels to me.
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
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Did I mention that the Bible is one of my biggest problems with Christianity? Far from finding insight in it, I more often find myself angered by its contents, especially where it talks of the homicidal petulant cruel God of death, hell and genocide. But also when it talks of the God who provides all our needs. No he doesn't. Millions of people starve to death and die of treatable disease. Where was he meeting their needs, eh?
Posted by balaam (# 4543) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
indeed, there are those for whom the certainty of faith appears to give license to be a complete and utter arsehole.
I can be a complete and utter arsehole without being certain. From my experience certainty and faith seem to be mutually exclusive.
Posted by balaam (# 4543) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Did I mention that the Bible is one of my biggest problems with Christianity? Far from finding insight in it, I more often find myself angered by its contents, especially where it talks of the homicidal petulant cruel God of death, hell and genocide. But also when it talks of the God who provides all our needs. No he doesn't. Millions of people starve to death and die of treatable disease. Where was he meeting their needs, eh?
Archbishop Cranmer's blog addresses this very issue.
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
All I really have is too much emotional capital sunk into the faith to easily give it up, and a nagging fear of doing so unless and until I'm absolutely sure it really is irrational bullshit. And a small quiet hope, born of desperation.
That goes for me aswell .
But of course all the while we have that "small quiet hope" then technically we have a faith .
Because if we are just inhabiting a rock, in the middle of an eternal nowhere, for absolutely no reason whatsoever , then that starts to sound like the very epitome of desperation to me .
Maybe the actual practicing of faith is a different matter to the having of faith . I have 'eased up' on church attendance in recent years and don't feel any the worse for it .
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
It's participation that's difficult. Participation in the Charevo worship that's common these days down the candle is particularly hard; you can hardly clap and dance and all the rest of it if it's just words you don't really believe, or which intellectually you assent to in part but have no emotional reaction to.
Do you ever attend high church CofE worship? Do you find that helpful to you?
I'm always surprised at how many of the British non-evangelicals on the Ship find themselves participating in evangelical worship. It's my theory that I could probably work out where all of you live if I took the trouble to analyse the parts of the country where charismatic evangelicalism predominates!! (Not that I would, of course.) Where are all those calm, reflective CofE churches that are designed to welcome the doubters?? Isn't that partly what the CofE is meant to offer?
quote:
I led one of the carols at our carol service before Christmas. I was able to do this because I believe in singing carols, quite independently or whether or not I believe the words, because I have an emotional attachment to them [...] They're not, for me, very much about God.
This is one reason why I'm growing increasingly ambivalent about the Christmas season. The churches think, mistakenly, that it's a wonderfully evangelistic time of year, but it's mostly about religion in the service of nostalgia. Still, maybe that's the future of mainstream British Christianity.
Regarding God, Islam appears to be a more consistent religion. Muslims don't seem to worry about reconciling the 'God of love' and the God who does horrible things or allows them to happen.
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
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Svit - I went to a liberal AC place for many years. Helpful, I don't know - less difficult, definitely. However, it doesn't suit the kids. I'm at a FE place now which I know that many denizens of Ecclesiantics would hate, to the point of saying it shouldn't be allowed.
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
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To be honest I wouldn't worry about the kids. They will rebel when there time comes, whatever you do. The only sure way to get them to go to Church would be to ban it!
Posted by Scarlet (# 1738) on
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I can never go to another church, I have decided. No matter how much they minimise the appearance of tenets of faith one has to cling to, eventually I have to stop being a visitor who happens to partake of communion and become a regular or a member of the book group and Sunday school and whatever. And I do feel like a fraud even taking communion.
I can never make any more vows of faith or promises that I don't believe in even as I say them. I don't believe any of the creeds or the "articles of faith" in the back of the prayer books. There are times I miss book groups and coffee hour and having the bread and wine...I used to go to Wednesday morning prayer because we went to a coffee house afterwards for fellowship. But the priest had me do the reading and I felt so fake, because even the psalms seem like lies to me now. Sort of like reading Shakespearean sonnets...
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
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I believe the creeds in my own idiosyncratic way. Is this wrong? Dunno.
Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I believe the creeds in my own idiosyncratic way. Is this wrong? Dunno.
In truth, pretty much everyone does.
Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on
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(Lovin' Lamb Chopped's approach)
Posted by Charlie-in-the-box (# 17954) on
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Hi all,
I have doubts all of the time. I was watching a show on the sun and how in 2 billion years it will swallow up the solar system and burn up everything before it does. Then there will be nothing but darkness and there will be no earth, no nothing. I think about these things (this is what keeps me out of the good colleges) and wonder where will I be? The idea of shutting off my life like shutting off a light switch freaks me out. We are totally powerless over that. We can extend our existence a little while but, eventually, we are gone.
I just have no idea what basket to put my eggs in or if it even matters at all. I'm 51, you would think that I would have accepted mortality by now but the idea of ceasing to exist, having nothing out there waiting for me, that thought is horrible.
But am I looking for a faith to ease my fear? Will it matter in the end?
Then to nuke my terror I retreated to humor. I thought about how the sun should do a dress rehearsal. Just click itself off for a day and let people freak out. Then come back on and remind everyone that someday we will not be here. Make what matters in your life count.
My son died at 16. He had no idea that morning would be the last time he would do his morning rituals of taking a shower and eating breakfast. I had no idea either.
I just don't know what to embrace, if anything. People seem so sure but they are all so different. Can they all be right? I hear a Catholic priest saying this is the ONLY TRUE Church of Jesus. Then another, who says all Catholics are going to hell, tells me that their way is the only one. Some will say God will turn you away if you don't recite a certain prayer and others say that they are POSITIVE of heaven. Did I miss something? Why can't I feel certain, of anything? Some say we return in another life, which is no help at all because you won't remember anything anyway.
It's all dark doubt to me. I did read a neat (sort of) joke once that echoes my thoughts about those "we are the only ones who are right" types.
St Michael the archangel was called to meet with St Peter at the gate to heaven. He told the angel that someone had reported to him that the people he rejected for entry into heaven were later seen walking around in heaven. He told Michael that he must take care of this problem immediately. Michael goes off to see what's wrong and returns to Peter a few hours Peter. Peter asked Michael what he learned and Michael told him what he found. He said, "It's true that some of the people not allowed in heaven are getting in, you see, Jesus is pulling them in over the wall." THAT is who I want to know. I need something to ease my eternal anxiety.
Thanks for reading his horribly morbid post. I just wish I could be "certain" even if it all didn't matter in the end. At least I'd have some comfort. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
[ 05. January 2014, 19:41: Message edited by: Charlie-in-the-box ]
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Scarlet:
I can never go to another church, I have decided. No matter how much they minimise the appearance of tenets of faith one has to cling to, eventually I have to stop being a visitor who happens to partake of communion and become a regular or a member of the book group and Sunday school and whatever. And I do feel like a fraud even taking communion.
I can never make any more vows of faith or promises that I don't believe in even as I say them. I don't believe any of the creeds or the "articles of faith" in the back of the prayer books. There are times I miss book groups and coffee hour and having the bread and wine...I used to go to Wednesday morning prayer because we went to a coffee house afterwards for fellowship. But the priest had me do the reading and I felt so fake, because even the psalms seem like lies to me now. Sort of like reading Shakespearean sonnets...
This doesn't sound like doubt to me, so much as a belief that Christianity is wrong in so many ways as to make any kind of formal adherence or participation inauthentic.
I suppose (British) Quakerism and/or Unitarianism would be the answer, if you were looking for some sort of communal attempt at spirituality, since they don't claim to offer a coherent system of belief that members have to buy into.
[ 05. January 2014, 20:09: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on
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My best girlfriend from school days called me the other day. We attended the Methodist church together back in the 50's, but we grew up, turned into liberal hippies, and she never went back to church, while I never went completely away, even if it was just to slip into the back of a strange church in the city from time to time.
She knows I go and thinks it's weird. What she called to tell me was that, while she was visiting family over Christmas, she attended the old church with them and, her words were, "I didn't feel a thing."
I realized then that I "don't feel a thing" the majority of the time. All conditions have to be just right; no distractions, either in my own life or from the people around me, no difficult music or annoying sermon. Even then, it's as if any awareness of God is very faint and very far away, but, once in a great while, I do feel it and that's enough to convince me it's there even when I can't tap into it. Without that I would despair.
Why do we feel the terror of the abyss if there is no God to be separated from? Our Bibles may be full of miss-translations and primitive legends. Our traditions may be just so much man made pomp, but it's our longing for God that is at the root of these things and I don't think that longing would be there, or be so strong, if there was nothing on the other end.
[Cross posted with Charlie. Welcome. So sorry about your son.}
[ 05. January 2014, 20:22: Message edited by: Twilight ]
Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on
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Death seems to have scared the BeJesus out of me there for awhile.
He's slowly creeping back in.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
To be honest I wouldn't worry about the kids. They will rebel when there time comes, whatever you do. The only sure way to get them to go to Church would be to ban it!
A British study I've heard of suggests that two practising Christian parents are 50% likely to transmit their faith to their children. Non-religious parents are much more successful at transmitting their absence of religion.
Conservative forms of religious belief tend to be transmitted to children more successfully than those that are less so. The flip side to this must be that parental doubt is transmitted more effectively than parental faith.... But it's also a case of demographics; conservatives have more children, so their religious communities remain healthier because even if some children are 'lost' to the faith there will be a critical number who remain.
There's talk now of the spiritual influence of grandparents. That's probably really important. The spiritual heritage of my grandparents and other relatives had an impact on me across 1000s of miles, even though my own parents were somewhat shaky in their religious commitment.
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
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I like this thread, because people can just say that they feel lost or empty. I don't want people telling me to be joyful with Jesus, and telling me how to be saved.
As I've got older, the dominant feeling for me has become not knowing, and again, I really don't want someone telling me that that's wrong or a cop-out.
Maybe I had too much intellectual knowledge, in a certain way, and then a lot of it fell away, so I am approaching a kind of nothing. But in a strange way, that relaxes me.
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Why do we feel the terror of the abyss if there is no God to be separated from? Our Bibles may be full of miss-translations and primitive legends. Our traditions may be just so much man made pomp, but it's our longing for God that is at the root of these things and I don't think that longing would be there, or be so strong, if there was nothing on the other end.
This is my hope.
When I try to completely let go of God I can't let go of the thought/hope/feeling that there can't be nothing holding all this together.
Posted by Nicodemia (# 4756) on
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I wouldn't mind if there was nothing out there when I die. I wouldn't know anything about it anyway. What gets me is I might find something there, and that I had got it all wrong!
But then, what is right? And we are back on the circular arguments/theories/propositions again.
<sigh>
And welcome Charlie, so sorry about your son.
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicodemia:
I wouldn't mind if there was nothing out there when I die. I wouldn't know anything about it anyway. What gets me is I might find something there, and that I had got it all wrong!
But then, what is right? And we are back on the circular arguments/theories/propositions again.
<sigh>
And welcome Charlie, so sorry about your son.
A friend of mine says that oblivion sounds just too good to be true, which always makes me laugh, and sort of not care anyway. Well, there can't be oblivion.
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on
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Yes, I don't give a toss about the afterlife though my approach to it is a universalist one. To me the "message" of Jesus is summed up in Galloping Granny's signature line from the end of the the Gospel of Thomas that the Kingdom of Heaven [whatever that means] is all around us but we just fail to see it!
Posted by The Great Gumby (# 10989) on
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I was just reading through out of curiosity - I'm intending to leave it alone, because it seems that in threads like this, the one thing less popular than absolute religious conviction is the slightest hint that there really might not be anything out there. But I wanted to pick up on this:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
It's participation that's difficult. Participation in the Charevo worship that's common these days down the candle is particularly hard; you can hardly clap and dance and all the rest of it if it's just words you don't really believe, or which intellectually you assent to in part but have no emotional reaction to.
I led one of the carols at our carol service before Christmas. I was able to do this because I believe in singing carols, quite independently or whether or not I believe the words, because I have an emotional attachment to them - they're part of my Christmas from when I was a wee lad and take me back to tinsel and lights and excitement that Christmas used to be about before alas adulthood and the associated reality took hold. They're not, for me, very much about God.
/tangent
It's much harder if I'm asked to do a reading; harder still were I asked to lead intercessions; I'd probably have to refuse; I'd feel such a fraud leading people to petition the ceiling, which is how it largely feels to me.
This is pretty much how I felt about it for years. Hymns - fine. Carols - brilliant. Soppy handwavy love songs to Jesus - no thanks. Reading was OK, though, even if I didn't like the text, because at the very least, people ought to know what it actually says, instead of what they think it says.
I found myself wondering whether the distinction between these different songs is introversion, content, novelty or whatever. I don't really have an answer, but I think it's probably a bit of each.
Posted by the famous rachel (# 1258) on
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Hi All,
I'm really glad to see this thread - and wish I had more time to participate in it. I'll try and chip in now and then, since I recognise many of the doubts being raised here and am struggling with them.
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I thought, decades ago when I left atheism for Christianity, that by now I'd have sufficient experience of God - whatever form that might take - to have the sort of confidence in his existence that I see a lot of people having.
I didn't. And I don't.
I find Karl's disappointment interesting. It makes sense, but as someone who has been through a very experiential version of Christianity (charismatic evangelicalism) and once believed she had experienced quite a lot of God, I now actually find claims of experiences (including my own) more troubling than lack of experience. I always end up asking myself these days, what sort of God would answer prayers for "more joy, Lord, more power" (or whatever the buzzwords are just now) by making people laugh and sing and fall down in church services, but wouldn't answer the prayer of a mother with a desperately sick child in hospital? But then, what sort of God would answer one mother's prayer for one child in one hospital, but ignore the plight of thousands of children in a famine or a war? And so it goes on...
I've heard lots of answers to the "why does God allow suffering" question and might be able to find peace with some of them, but I couldn't find peace with a God who expends effort giving comfortable western Christians the warm fuzzies, whilst failing to lift a finger for a suffering African child.
The other reason I lost my ability to believe in the evangelical version of God is connected to this in a way: however it is explained, I can't find a way of accepting that a loving, powerful God would create people and then send them off for eternal punishment. God increasingly struck me as someone I didn't want to believe in, and certainly not someone I wanted to worship. I've been looking for a way forward outside the evangelical picture for a while, but am not really finding one - perhaps I don't care enough anymore, having rejected the experiential stuff, which was at least kind of fun?
I'd still like to believe, I still cling to that vestige of hope, but life is busy and challenging, and it all seems increasingly irrelevant.
Best wishes,
Rachel.
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on
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I hope it's OK for me to join in with my strong faith and yet lack of certainties.
Before I came to faith I used to feel shivers down my spine when I went into churches as they reminded me of death, especially when they were full of memorial plaques and I thought I was walking over graves. I did not want to spend any time in church services, let alone go every week and become involved. The Bible left me cold too.
I wonder whether pre-conceived ideas whether about God or about church or about Christians need to be stripped away before we can be still and know God at all. Istm that everyone has a tailor-made suit made by hand to pick up rather than being able to buy our faith 'off the peg'.
It took years of open-minded searching before I came to the convinced place of baptism. During that time I learned how to listen, and how to sift out my own imagination and desires from the still small 'voice' of God. At the same time I did my best to follow the teaching of Jesus. I've made steps of progress since, so that previous experience sustains me in 'dry' periods and through times of doubt.
Now I go to a specific church as it's how God wants me to worship and where God wants me to serve, but I don't suppose that this won't change. I continue to listen and follow. The Church, the Bible and fellow Christians are challenging, but at the same time affirming.
But what I'm describing is my own hand-made suit.
Posted by Nicodemia (# 4756) on
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quote:
But what I'm describing is my own hand-made suit.
Indeed you are, Raptor Eye. I'm glad you've found it. I thought I had, but then it just sort of wore out and I find myself without anything. Nothing. Zilch. For several years.
I'm with Rachel - why do wealthy (in comparison) Western Christians find more, when struggling people, who are presumably made in the image of God, get absolutely nothing.
What with that, and the aforesaid problem(in my first post) of a God of the Cosmos/Universe being interested in me, you and our paltry prayers, its any wonder I can say I believe.
Except, I think I have sometimes just got the merest glimpse of something or somebody that might just possibly, I hardly dare think about it, be out there.
Though whether you can describe this as Love, I don't know. Although nothing else fits.
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicodemia:
quote:
But what I'm describing is my own hand-made suit.
Indeed you are, Raptor Eye. I'm glad you've found it. I thought I had, but then it just sort of wore out and I find myself without anything. Nothing. Zilch. For several years.
I'm with Rachel - why do wealthy (in comparison) Western Christians find more, when struggling people, who are presumably made in the image of God, get absolutely nothing.
What with that, and the aforesaid problem(in my first post) of a God of the Cosmos/Universe being interested in me, you and our paltry prayers, its any wonder I can say I believe.
Except, I think I have sometimes just got the merest glimpse of something or somebody that might just possibly, I hardly dare think about it, be out there.
Though whether you can describe this as Love, I don't know. Although nothing else fits.
Istm that whatever we project onto God puts God into the straitjacket of our minds. Why would God create us and then be disinterested in us?
Reports I have heard tell of faith experience in Africa so great that they are sending missionaries to Britain. Perhaps people living in poverty are better able to draw near to God.
Yes, suffering leaves us wondering why. We want paradise now but are only promised it in the future. Are we all ready for it? That's probably a question for Purgatory.
God is love, and God is more than love. God is our purpose. Of that I am convinced. I can do nothing to convince others. I can only tell my own tale.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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quote:
Originally posted by the famous rachel:
I've heard lots of answers to the "why does God allow suffering" question and might be able to find peace with some of them, but I couldn't find peace with a God who expends effort giving comfortable western Christians the warm fuzzies, whilst failing to lift a finger for a suffering African child.
And yet, the weeping mothers of dead African babies don't themselves seem to lean towards agnosticism and atheism to the same extent as those of us in the West who watch their suffering from afar. I've often wondered about this. Do those people on our TV screens realise that watching their pain often moves western viewers further away from God? I wonder what they'd say if they knew. There's surely a book in that somewhere.
Many of my ancestors suffered terribly in quite specific ways, mostly at the hands of self-proclaimed Christians. For some people, this is reason enough to drive them away from Christianity. But one thing that keeps me holding on is the knowledge that my ancestors drew great strength and courage from their faith. And those who had weak faith appreciated the greater faith of the others. Bearing in mind that there's no proof either way, it would seem like a betrayal of them to abandon God for something that's not much better. And I can't really see how atheism is better; it's just one more choice in a sea of choices, and it doesn't bring dead babies back to life.
So, if there's a God, then someone somewhere ought to pay him some attention. Since so many people in our culture have given up, that's more reason for me, with my God-shaped yearnings, to make a bit of an effort. But if there's no God then at least I've been true to my nature. No one can hold that against me.
Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on
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I am deeply grateful for this thread and for the honesty of those posting here. Over the past five years I've questioned things I thought were non-negotiables and found myself entertaining ideas I would once have considered heresy. I haven't read the Bible for a very long time. For a long time this was all very frightening. I think I'm getting to the point where it might possibly be exciting.
There are very few people in real life that I could talk to about this, although I have found a few who seem to speak my language.
Charlie - I'm so very sorry about your son.
Posted by Charlie-in-the-box (# 17954) on
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Thanks so much for the comments about my son. It really shook my faith to the ground. I also noticed my trend to move from one faith to another. Has anyone else done this? I have been; Lutheran, Baptist, United Methodist, Wiccan/Pagan, Agnostic, Atheist, Reformed Judaism, Catholic, and now ....destination unknown. I keep looking for something and just can't have the experience with God I'm looking for I guess. I appreciate everyone's honesty and sharing.
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
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I feel as if I have been in dreamland for decades, sort of hearing Christian talk, and not really thinking hard about it, and then for some reason, a couple of years ago, I started to think about some of it (but not all), what utter rubbish. Anyway, this has carried on, so it is a kind of stocktaking, and removals, all in one. I don't know what will be left at the end of it at all. I just can't see the dualism anymore between self and God, life and God, other and God; all is God. So I conclude that I am no longer a Christian, hélas.
But I like this quote from Racine, 'Présente je vous fuis; absente, je vous trouve', and as I am obliged contractually, I will render it as, 'when I am present, I flee from you; when I am absent, I find you again'.
Posted by Charlie-in-the-box (# 17954) on
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I feel as if I have been in dreamland for decades, sort of hearing Christian talk, and not really thinking hard about it, and then for some reason, a couple of years ago, I started to think about some of it (but not all), what utter rubbish. Anyway, this has carried on, so it is a kind of stocktaking, and removals, all in one. I don't know what will be left at the end of it at all. I just can't see the dualism anymore between self and God, life and God, other and God; all is God. So I conclude that I am no longer a Christian, hélas.
But I like this quote from Racine, 'Présente je vous fuis; absente, je vous trouve', and as I am obliged contractually, I will render it as, 'when I am present, I flee from you; when I am absent, I find you again'.
Wow I like that quote. Is it possible that I try too hard? Like chasing something instead of waiting for it to come to you? I sure wish I knew.
Posted by Firenze (# 619) on
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Well, why not try it?
One thing I say constantly: the world is not about us. I live with someone whose work is in natural disasters. When destructive earthquakes happen, I hear those agonising about how a good God can let such things happen. But I glimpse too the science that has discovered what an extraordinary, self-regulating planetary mechanism tectonic plate movements are.
We're passengers. May as well enjoy the ride. There are no brakes, no safety bars and you crash sooner or later.
All of which I find easier to live with than trying to decode or construct my life as some sort of moral gym.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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Charlie-in-the-box
I'm very sorry to hear about your son. Very many people's faith would be utterly knocked sideways over something like that.
I read somewhere that Americans are increasingly likely to change their religious allegiances a few times over a lifetime, although you've surely switched more than most. People from the Caribbean (where my relatives are from) are known for this as well. The wider British population are less likely to do so on the whole, even though many religious movements were founded here.
I've found a website that compares the UK and USA in this regard:
http://old.richarddawkins.net/articles/501027-religion-switching-in-the-uk-and-usa
There's been some interest in converts to Islam. I live in a British city with a strong Muslim presence, and there are probably already more practising Muslims than Christians, thanks to immigration and larger birth rates. You do notice some who have probably converted or who are 2nd generation Muslims. I've known a few converts to Islam.
http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21578099-british-strand-islam-emerging-more-people-become-converts-changing-my-religion
As I walk along and see Muslims around me I often wonder what it would be like to be a Muslim.
Posted by Ian Climacus (# 944) on
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Thanks for starting this thread. And my sympathies Charlie.
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Did I mention that the Bible is one of my biggest problems with Christianity? Far from finding insight in it, I more often find myself angered by its contents...[cut]
I wish I had some emotion reading the Bible [some Psalms excepted]...I find myself unmoved in any way when I force myself to read it. And promptly forget it.
I haven't darkened a church in months [save a Lessons and Carols service; the only joy I feel is some nice music or a bushwalk] and I really doubt whether I am any sort of Christian: or perhaps if I'm marked for damnation in this meaningless existence. I could blame anxiety, depression, bi-polar tendencies, but is it an excuse? As much as I want to throw it in, I cannot...a flame, somewhere, flickers. For how long God only knows.
[ 06. January 2014, 23:01: Message edited by: Ian Climacus ]
Posted by The Great Gumby (# 10989) on
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
And yet, the weeping mothers of dead African babies don't themselves seem to lean towards agnosticism and atheism to the same extent as those of us in the West who watch their suffering from afar.
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I'm very sorry to hear about your son. Very many people's faith would be utterly knocked sideways over something like that.
Now, this is interesting. I've drawn out examples of two themes that are emerging in this thread - issues of feeling comfortable and of intense discomfort, both of which I've often heard "blamed" (if that's the right word) for loss of faith. That's also reflected in this thread, in its own way. I'm sure you can see the tension - I once called it Satan's Fork, in reference to Morton's Fork.
I don't think it's helpful to talk in these terms, not just because it implies that loss of faith is a bad thing (which begs the question, although I understand the reasons for it in this case), but also because it's clearly a whole lot more complicated than a simple cause and effect.
Posted by Bob Two-Owls (# 9680) on
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I am culturally Christian and have been baptised and confirmed but I read the Bible from start to finish when I was 18 and that signalled the decline in my faith. I was appalled at the treatment of the Canaanites, the book of Job made me feel sick and if it were not for the Psalms, Proverbs and the New Testament I would have become an anti-Christian activist. But there is still a spark of hope when I read the nice bits of the New Testament
My participation in the Church was severely knocked at university by my friends who were badly treated in the Nine O'Clock service debacle. I also come from a family that is half Anglican, half Catholic so religion is the cause of most family arguments for me. Staying out of Christianity altogether was a way for me to avoid choosing a side and living in mild disapproval from both sides rather than outright enmity from one or the other. I found a certain sense of peace and belonging in Pagan Druidry but I still found that I was drawn to parts of Christianity and tended to shape the ultra-liberal practice of Druidry in monotheistic, culturally Christian ways.
I now live as an agnostic Christian, wanting to be convinced. I know that I really should buckle down to some theological study but I am too poor to start a formal course and too much of a mathematician to read books without numbers without some plan or someone to talk to. My local vicar was not very helpful when I asked her where to start. She was more used to someone asking whether God exists, rather than someone who is fairly sure that God does exist and doubts whether God is really good.
Not sure if any of that made sense, I think I have more doubt than I have the ability to express coherently.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
And yet, the weeping mothers of dead African babies don't themselves seem to lean towards agnosticism and atheism to the same extent as those of us in the West who watch their suffering from afar.
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I'm very sorry to hear about your son. Very many people's faith would be utterly knocked sideways over something like that.
Now, this is interesting. I've drawn out examples of two themes that are emerging in this thread - issues of feeling comfortable and of intense discomfort, both of which I've often heard "blamed" (if that's the right word) for loss of faith. That's also reflected in this thread, in its own way. I'm sure you can see the tension - I once called it Satan's Fork, in reference to Morton's Fork.
I don't think it's helpful to talk in these terms, not just because it implies that loss of faith is a bad thing (which begs the question, although I understand the reasons for it in this case), but also because it's clearly a whole lot more complicated than a simple cause and effect.
Yes, I can see why you've highlighted these two parts of my post! They seem to be contradictory, don't they?
I did consider leaving a simple 'I'm sorry about your son', but felt that more was required, especially since this is really a thread about how the hard knocks of life reduce our faith, not about how some people hold onto faith or even gain sustenance from it when such things happen. Yet the latter is also true.
I agree that the two themes you highlight both seem to be the causes of lost faith in various contexts, and that they represent a certain tension. The Bible itself suggests that wealth and poverty, success and failure, can lead us either away from or towards God. Christians in the West tend not to be the poorest people there, whereas on a global scale the most devout probably live in some of the poorest nations.....
An atheist and a Christian will probably see any decision that moves someone they know further away from a previously shared position as an unfortunate thing at the very least. That's fairly obvious. But we do have the right to disapprove of someone else's decisions, just as they have the right to disapprove of ours.
Posted by Charlie-in-the-box (# 17954) on
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Hi all,
For me, as a clergywoman, I was embarrassed, ashamed, and depressed that my faith "failed me" and I quit believing in God. How could someone who is supposed to share her faith with others and help them remain steadfast in the their trials, have her faith disintegrate? I always grew up expecting way too much out of myself and always saw myself as not good enough so I don't think I had a big issue with the crisis itself but the fact that I didn't want others to see it and have it cause them a faith crisis.
I didn't know where to go. I was a failure as a parent, my kid died at 16. I felt like I was always in the ring, being watched, as clergy often are, and I had been unhorsed and lost the game. There was nothing left for me to do but limp out of the ring/spotlight and sit in darkness trying to figure out why...why when others are carried and sustained by their faith did mine fail. It didn't just fail, it was annihilated. I have never been the same since.
[ 07. January 2014, 17:35: Message edited by: Charlie-in-the-box ]
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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Charlie-in-the-box
Your painful words remind me of a vicar in London whose daughter was killed in the London tube bombings of 2007:
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/mar/07/religion.july7
She didn't lose her faith exactly, but felt she didn't have sufficient faith to be able to continue as a church minister.
I've never experienced anything as awful as this, but a distant relative of mine who is a Pentecostal minister lost a teenage son as a result of an accidental shooting.
[ 07. January 2014, 18:12: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posted by Chocoholic (# 4655) on
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I'm also struggling with the institution of the church. I've seen too much rubbish, too many people get damaged. I'm going, sort of, but am being rather commitment phobic. Part of me thinks I'm only denying myself the opportunity to benefit from what deeper involvement could offer, but another part, says no, don't do it!
Posted by Charlie-in-the-box (# 17954) on
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Wow Chocoholic,
You put what I feel in my current parish into words. I am struggling with beliefs/doctrine but I have held back at this parish, afraid of being hurt again. Thanks for what you said, I sure can relate.
Posted by Chocoholic (# 4655) on
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Oh gosh, I felt guilty posting that where I did given the struggles you have been having.
I don't know what the answer is. The trouble is I am so much more sensitive to things now too, small things seem more significant - I wonder if they are signs if something more fundamentally wrong. It so hard to trust, and churches aren't perfect, none of them are, it's just not knowing how bad - mildly annoying or full on damaging.
Even posting here is causing me anxiety.
Posted by chive (# 208) on
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I don't doubt particularly. I believe and assent intellectually to my faith and what the church teaches, I just can't be motivated to go there.
Church is a really big trigger for anxiety for me and the emotional effort of going to mass just seems enormous. Last night I was going to go to evening mass after I'd done something else and it was dark and raining and I was tired and I just thought 'fuck it.'
I'm finding saying 'fuck it' easier and easier in recent months. I almost feel semi detached from church. I used to go almost every day to mass and now it's maybe once a month or every three weeks. I do miss it a lot but apparently not enough to actually bother with it if that makes sense.
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Charlie-in-the-box:
I was a failure as a parent, my kid died at 16.
Oh, Charlie, that's the saddest thing I think I've ever read here. I constantly feel like a failure as a parent, too, and I'll never reconcile myself to failing at what I consider my most important task at life. I don't have any big compensating reason for existing either. It's not like I'm a doctor who saves lives everyday. Being a mother was sort of my sole job.
-------------
Reading this thread makes me think maybe I'm just too glib about my faith. I also read the Bible straight through and while it didn't help my faith, I didn't lose it either. I simply think of the Old Testament as a history of man grappling with ethics and the concept of one God. The New Testament alone is my example and my guide as a Christian.
The suffering in the world doesn't really effect my faith either, because I've never imagined God as a hands-on manager who might overturn his natural laws to make people well or safe. I experience his help through my mind, helping me cope with whatever happens, finding a bit of forgiveness and peace while on earth and a promise of something better on the other side.
As I say, probably too glib.
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
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I have certainly experienced a great relief in recent months, as I have largely given up on Christian ideas. I no longer have to struggle to work them out, or reconcile them with my own ideas or experiences of/about God. I feel happy to let these stand. They are neither right nor wrong.
Posted by Scarlet (# 1738) on
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quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
This doesn't sound like doubt to me, so much as a belief that Christianity is wrong in so many ways as to make any kind of formal adherence or participation inauthentic.
I suppose (British) Quakerism and/or Unitarianism would be the answer, if you were looking for some sort of communal attempt at spirituality, since they don't claim to offer a coherent system of belief that members have to buy into.
I guess that I really do not even want to associate myself any longer with any spiritual group, building, book or members!
Not only am I bitter towards all church entities, since I feel tricked and lied to (none of the promises from God they teach ever come true and the Bible itself is not true) nor is it possible to make the internal changes in my heart that are supposedly required in order to "be Christian".
I still have a glimmer of faith that "God" exists in some place (heaven, the clouds, inside my spirit, who knows?) as some sort of etheral energy or essence who created me as someone defective, unchosen and unable to be whatever He requires to me saved. That's it for my belief.
I am furious that He forced me be born and has me trapped here to suffer until He decides I can stop breathing. And if there is a Hell, I will assuredly be put there. Which cannot be worse that the hell here on earth.
Posted by Scarlet (# 1738) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Scarlet:
I still have a glimmer of faith that "God" exists in some place (heaven, the clouds, inside my spirit, who knows?) as some sort of ethereal energy or essence who created me as someone defective, unchosen and unable to be whatever He requires of me to me saved. That's it for my belief.
I really botched up this sentence. Here is an edited version...
Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Reading this thread makes me think maybe I'm just too glib about my faith.
I feel the same - but am slightly reassured to know that I am a lot less glib than I was 5 years ago.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
Posted by Nicodemia (# 4756) on
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It is really comforting to find that I am in the good company of fellow Shippies!
No answers to my problem, though didn't expect that, but I think maybe we just have to keep going from where we are now, and learn to live with doubts and paradoxes.
I think that is what I think!
Posted by the famous rachel (# 1258) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Scarlet:
I still have a glimmer of faith that "God" exists in some place (heaven, the clouds, inside my spirit, who knows?) as some sort of ethereal energy or essence who created me as someone defective, unchosen and unable to be whatever He requires of me to me saved. That's it for my belief.
I am furious that He forced me be born and has me trapped here to suffer until He decides I can stop breathing. And if there is a Hell, I will assuredly be put there. Which cannot be worse that the hell here on earth.
Oh Scarlet! I feel for you. This is exactly where my doubts arise from, although so much more passionately expressed, because you are suffering in ways that I am not.
I am not willing to worship a God who creates me, declares me defective and then sends me off for eternal punishment unless I can force my brain (which he created) to believe things which it naturally rebels against as offending both my ideas of logic and of justice.
The thing that really makes me mad is when some happy "convinced" Christian tells me belief is easy. The sermon which drove me away from church (delivered by a fairly eminent and well-known evangelical preacher) said that believing in God is easy, because we find it easy to believe that when we buy a tin of beans there will actually be beans inside and not cockroaches or something, and belief in God is no different!
Best wishes,
Rachel.
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
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quote:
Originally posted by the famous rachel:
I am not willing to worship a God who creates me, declares me defective and then sends me off for eternal punishment unless I can force my brain (which he created) to believe things which it naturally rebels against as offending both my ideas of logic and of justice.
I am, if they convince me that this God exists, but only because I'm a collossal moral coward.
[ 09. January 2014, 13:00: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
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Something that happened to me over the past few years is that I grew to be suspicious of notions of truth. I couldn't see how any supernatural notion could be said to be true, except as a guess. Well, guessing is perfectly fine, except I suppose that you are faced with the problem of distinguishing between different guesses! For example, my wife is a sort of gnostic New Age general all-round pagan - that's her guess.
But truth has been replaced for me by just being useful. I still find some Christian symbols and rituals useful, or they work for me in certain ways, or they fit my experience. So I've stopped worrying about whether the story is 'true'. Hell-bound, me hearties!
[ 09. January 2014, 15:10: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
...I still find some Christian symbols and rituals useful, or they work for me in certain ways, or they fit my experience. So I've stopped worrying about whether the story is 'true'. Hell-bound, me hearties!
This is true for me, too - which is possibly why I still find it useful to go to Catholic Mass on a fairly regular basis. I am not a Catholic, the service is in a language I don't understand but I still find sitting there [I don't do the sit, stand, kneel bit] as part of a worshipping community a good discipline. I don't believe what [some of] the people around me seem to believe but that matters not a hoot. Some of the people, like Himself and Herself] are actually Hindu but they are welcomed just as I am.
Posted by Holy Smoke (# 14866) on
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I have certainly experienced a great relief in recent months, as I have largely given up on Christian ideas. I no longer have to struggle to work them out, or reconcile them with my own ideas or experiences of/about God. I feel happy to let these stand. They are neither right nor wrong.
I quite enjoy reading and thinking about theology, but that has little bearing on whether or not I attend services, which is largely down to what I experience, and whether attending has a positive effect on how I live. But the main thing in my average city-centre church is to avoid the after-service coffee, and sit as far to the side/back as possible.
![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
Posted by piglet (# 11803) on
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As someone whose faith-perspective (if that's the right expression - perhaps worship-perspective would be better) is middle-to-high Anglican (with an emphasis on music and liturgy) I can understand WW and Quetzalcoatl's point.
Although I'm usually an active participant in worship (singing in the choir and occasionally reading a lesson), I can be just as uplifted by going to Choral Evensong at a cathedral or college chapel and allowing beautifully-performed music to inspire me.
I imagine that there must be a God to have inspired people to write such wonderful music, and then I'm reminded that some of the best composers of church music (Howells and Vaughan Williams among quite a few others) were either atheists or agnostics.
Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on
:
I went on a retreat day this week and was thinking a lot about this thread and the people posting here. I was also revisiting the notes I'd made on previous retreats and was reminded of one session last year when the retreat leader was talking about those who feel they have lost their faith. She said what we actually lose is our beliefs - the things we have been told we must believe - but faith is something different, and is about relationship. This, when Jesus said, "O ye of little faith" he was not being accusatory, it was an invitation to come closer into relationship.
I don't pretend to understand this but it has given me some food for thought.
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on
:
Thanks for that Nenya - I'll think about that one.
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Nenya:
I went on a retreat day this week and was thinking a lot about this thread and the people posting here. I was also revisiting the notes I'd made on previous retreats and was reminded of one session last year when the retreat leader was talking about those who feel they have lost their faith. She said what we actually lose is our beliefs - the things we have been told we must believe - but faith is something different, and is about relationship. This, when Jesus said, "O ye of little faith" he was not being accusatory, it was an invitation to come closer into relationship.
I don't pretend to understand this but it has given me some food for thought.
Yes, I get that. As I got older, beliefs began to seem superfluous, and in a way, too abstract. Life is pulsating away, beyond my beliefs - the snowdrops are just starting to peep out now.
But this doesn't rule out God or Christ.
Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
This is true for me, too - which is possibly why I still find it useful to go to Catholic Mass on a fairly regular basis. I am not a Catholic, the service is in a language I don't understand but I still find sitting there [I don't do the sit, stand, kneel bit] as part of a worshipping community a good discipline. I don't believe what [some of] the people around me seem to believe but that matters not a hoot. Some of the people, like Himself and Herself] are actually Hindu but they are welcomed just as I am.
I do the same Catholic visits, myself. I like the solemn dance of it all and the thought that fellow Christians have been doing the same rituals for years. If our level of certainty varies a great deal then that's fine, too. We showed up, we're seeking something together.
Posted by AdamPater (# 4431) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
<snip>
Hi Ian,
You've been missed. Would you PM/email/call/drop me a line?
AP.
Posted by mrs whibley (# 4798) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Nenya:
I went on a retreat day this week and was thinking a lot about this thread and the people posting here. I was also revisiting the notes I'd made on previous retreats and was reminded of one session last year when the retreat leader was talking about those who feel they have lost their faith. She said what we actually lose is our beliefs - the things we have been told we must believe - but faith is something different, and is about relationship. This, when Jesus said, "O ye of little faith" he was not being accusatory, it was an invitation to come closer into relationship.
I don't pretend to understand this but it has given me some food for thought.
That's very helpful, thank you. My beliefs (or possibly, yes, all those things I had been told I believed) seem to be pouring away like water down a plughole at the moment, and I'm clutching at my faith trying not to let it go with them.
Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on
:
I believe in God, but I think the church (in general) has got a lot of it wrong, or out of balance, or something.
I learn a lot from reading in the "inspirational" spiritual but not specifically "Christian" genre. Wayne Dyer et al. They focus on how to live this life, not on who does or does not "get to heaven." (I doubt "heaven" is a place, more like an attitude or something.)
A lot of what Jesus taught was about how to live this life, and a lot of that is the opposite of what we are taught by society, but I don't hear churches countering it except superficially. "If someone steals from you, give him more." Yes, read in a lesson, but does anyone actually do it? Is there a church-full somewhere doing it?
Dyer et al emphasize forgiveness. Not "God forgives you," but "you need to forgive others, not because they deserve it but for your own mental and physical health." That's a life-changing message, I hear it far more emphasized outside than inside the churches. Just one example.
"When you dance, your purpose is not to get to a certain place on the floor. It's to enjoy each step along the way." (W Dyer) Yes.
Christianity is too often presented as SERIOUS! As if it's all about keeping an eye on whether your current words/actions are pleasing or annoying God; so it becomes rules, lots of rules, many of them obligations like "go to church every Sunday (whether or not you like it)" because that's how to make sure you get into heaven. Goal oriented and self-focused.
What if God is just looking for people to dance with?
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
...What if God is just looking for people to dance with?
This!
Posted by Galloping Granny (# 13814) on
:
quote:
From my experience certainty and faith seem to be mutually exclusive.
This is an idea that I’ve recently welcomed: that faith is the opposite of certainty.
Often reading of Shipmates’ experiences I’ve been grateful that the churches = congregations that I’ve been part of have been loving communities who don’t listen to preached nonsense but care for one another and for the people beyond, neighbours over the fence or over the sea, and who don’t go in for back-biting or power struggles.
I’m sure everyone around me in church ‘believes’ something different, but they get on with the life before them and find a house group where their own thoughts can be shared – ours is working through the second series of Living the Questions, very daring for some but old hat for me (lots of Borg, Crossan and Spong).
God? Don’t say ‘He’. God is the Other, the great Mystery, not a micro-organiser or, for that matter, the macro-organiser, just the consciousness in creation from which love emanates.
If it’s my turn to lead intercessions, I don’t ask God to interfere; I ask, for instance, that in frightening situations there may be voices that speak comfort and peace; that for a dying friend there may be peace and hope; that world leaders may struggle to bring peace and understanding.
If I lead worship I study the lectionary passages, read what my respected scholars say about the topics, and share my insights, my comments being descriptive, not prescriptive. Most of traditional doctrine I understand to come from the understanding of scholars of far-off times, and that goes for the stories in the bible: people whose lives were in the power of kings who could reward or punish them with torture or death conceived of a god who was the same only a thousand times more powerful.
Salvation, for me, means that in adopting the life values of Jesus I’m saved from the kind of existence that gets its values from competition, self-interest, and materialism. I don’t expect a life after death, but who knows??? At my funeral they can sing Colin Gibson’s lovely hymn: ‘Where the road run out and the signposts end...’ Stories about Hell make no sense to me, but I think there are many people on earth who are living in hell, and the worst hell is for those who perpetrate evil.
If I have to say a creed I’ll opt for the UCC one: ‘We are not alone; we live in God’s world...’
Thanks to all who have shared their doubts and struggles with faith. May you and I all be blessed!
GG
Posted by Pre-cambrian (# 2055) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Nenya:
I went on a retreat day this week and was thinking a lot about this thread and the people posting here. I was also revisiting the notes I'd made on previous retreats and was reminded of one session last year when the retreat leader was talking about those who feel they have lost their faith. She said what we actually lose is our beliefs - the things we have been told we must believe - but faith is something different, and is about relationship. This, when Jesus said, "O ye of little faith" he was not being accusatory, it was an invitation to come closer into relationship.
Unless the retreat leader has been in this position herself I don't see how she can possibly state that it is beliefs not faith which is lost. And if one of the beliefs you have been told - and which you no longer accept - is the basic existence of god then a faith relationship is meaningless anyway. It sounds to me more of a comforting state of denial; if she can convince herself that people don't really lose their faith, but just rebel against orders, it is much less scary.
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on
:
Please remember that the purpose of this thread is support and expressions of experience and not debate or critiquing of those experiences.
Thanks.
WW - AS Host
Posted by Huia (# 3473) on
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GG I want that hymn too.
I found the value of Living the Questions for me was that it made sense of things that I already thought and gave me a way of expressing my thinking. I had often felt a bit intimidated by other people's certainties, while still not accepting them, now I feel much more comfortable with my lack of certainity.
Huia
Posted by the famous rachel (# 1258) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by the famous rachel:
I am not willing to worship a God who creates me, declares me defective and then sends me off for eternal punishment unless I can force my brain (which he created) to believe things which it naturally rebels against as offending both my ideas of logic and of justice.
I am, if they convince me that this God exists, but only because I'm a collossal moral coward.
Really? Are you sure you want to hang out with that bastard for all eternity?
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Rachel.
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
:
I am still absorbing a kind of gear change which has happened to me recently, without my really realizing it. A lot of stuff on this forum just seems like double dutch to me now. What on earth is it about? Talking about sin and salvation, and that Jesus will save me from my sin. I can't understand a word of that really, or rather, I have my own interpretation of it, which is quite idiosyncratic.
I think I always had my own version of Christian ideas and symbolism, and I sort of fitted it into the Christian mold, but suddenly, well not all that suddenly, it doesn't seem to fit, and the mold just seems absurd. Well, I will just have to monitor it, as I'm not in control of this process! I must say, it is a huge relief as well. I feel like a diver who has come up to the fresh air, and can breathe.
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on
:
It is a bit like that ancient Milarepa story about seeing an old man carrying a heavy load coming towards him and knowing the man could lead him towards enlightenment. When they were opposite one another he stopped him and said
"Excuse me, sir, but what is enlightenment?"
The old man stopped, put down his burden, straightened up and smiled.
Milarepa said "Yes, thank you, now I understand! But please, what is after enlightenment?"
The old man picked up his bundle, settled on his back and, still smiling, walked off.
The thing is that I rather suspect that the burden changes when it is on the ground.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
A lot of stuff on this forum just seems like double dutch to me now. What on earth is it about? Talking about sin and salvation, and that Jesus will save me from my sin. I can't understand a word of that really, or rather, I have my own interpretation of it, which is quite idiosyncratic.
I think I always had my own version of Christian ideas and symbolism, and I sort of fitted it into the Christian mold, but suddenly, well not all that suddenly, it doesn't seem to fit, and the mold just seems absurd. Well, I will just have to monitor it, as I'm not in control of this process! I must say, it is a huge relief as well. I feel like a diver who has come up to the fresh air, and can breathe.
In what sense do you feel that the term 'Christian' is still relevant to you?
Posted by Garasu (# 17152) on
:
Isn't being "Christian" about feeling oneself released to a world free from sin?
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
I wouldn't put it quite like that myself; sin is still a reality in my own 'Christian' world. But I can see how the idea of Christ 'conquering' sin might be read by some as making the whole idea of sin irrelevant.
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on
:
Removing Hostly Quaker Hat from cupboard, dusting it off and putting it on
Please folks, if you want to discuss what are the requisites for being a Christian or other such concepts then Purgatory is the place to do it - such a thread there could produce some interesting debate. Meanwhile this is All Saints and the focus of this thread is Doubting and support and sharing for those who doubt.
Let's keep it that way.
Welease Woderwick
All Saints Host
Removing Hostly Quaker Hat and putting it back in the cupboard
Posted by Galloping Granny (# 13814) on
:
Dear Quakerly Host
While I see that it is correct that a discussion on what constitutes a Christian is a Purgatory topic, is it not that shipmates are offering support to those whose doubts are within a specifically Christian context, and part of people's concerns is whether in spite of their doubts they still feel themselves to be Christians, or want to be part of the Christian faith?
For myself, I am still determinedly a follower of Jesus, however much of traditional dogma I've rejected. I think my doubts are directed at aspects of religious teaching, not at the existence of the 'God' whom I continually seek.
With respect
GG
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on
:
Thanks for that GG - I'll sort of reply here though I suppose we should do this in The Styx but for this brief exchange I can cope with it here.
I think my anxiety is this becoming an intellectual discussion on the nature of faith, which is what I am trying to avoid, for my sake as much as anything, as that belongs in Purg. I, speaking personally, don't see a problem in having parallel threads in the two places; indeed it may help some people. What I am concerned about is not alienating people from this thread by becoming too theoretical.
WW
Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on
:
I have opened a thread in Purgatory here.
Posted by Silver Swan (# 17957) on
:
My problem with faith is one of constancy. When I wake up most mornings I am anxious, and afraid that I've failed or that some evil has slipped in and taken hold of me. I 'put on the Lord Jesus Christ' in prayer and morning Bible reading but then it's rough sailing for most of the day.
I love it when my internal juke box is playing hymns, and Christian music keeps me lifted, but it seems I have to make frequent effort to stay faithful.
It's as though Christianity hasn't become my default mode.
Posted by Chocoholic (# 4655) on
:
I sometimes wonder if I just overthink things and end up making it all more difficult for myself, rather than just getting in with it. Now, if I find a way of doing that....
Posted by Nicodemia (# 4756) on
:
Every day I wonder if there really is a God. But I still (sometimes) go to church, shutting off the three parts of my mind that doesn't believe, and listening and singing awful songs with the other quarter.
Basically, I think I'm really scared to 'come out' as a non-believer in case I'm wrong and there's a dreadful fate waiting for me when I die.
Now, that is as honest a post as I can write. Please don't go jumping down my throat if you reply.
Posted by Chocoholic (# 4655) on
:
Oh Nicodemia, with such openness and integrity I am sure no one could jump down your throat. I didn't want your post to go unanswered (which can also be unnerving).
Love and prayers for you in your journey.
Posted by Late Paul (# 37) on
:
So here's my story (I'll try to keep it shortish):
I was brought up as a Methodist. I had my "conversion experience" when I was very young and I never really doubted the essentials for a long time. I ended up in my 20s and early 30s in an charismatic evangelical church and was very happy there for the most part.
However I went through a period where I became increasingly worn out, emotionally and spiritually as well as physically and decided to "take a break". I don't think I stopped believing and it wasn't because of doubts in the reality of God etc
So I left the church and a bit later got a new job and moved. There then followed a decade or so when my only Christian contact was the Ship (and church at my parents at Christmas).
Despite what I told people at the time I think secretly I thought I still believed and I think I expected to "go back" at some point (joining the Ship was a tentative step in that direction).
Then about 18months ago some things happened that made me feel so desperate that I started praying. Things improved and for about a year I was praying nearly every day. I was confused about what I believed but I never really had to sort it out because I wasn't interacting with anyone else.
Then things in my personal life got bad again and I'd been thinking anyway that I needed other people and that solitary faith wasn't for me. I tried a few churches - a terrifying experience after so long - and settled on a lively evangelical baptist church. I knew from the beginning that there were things they stood for that I no longer would agree with but culturally it was familiar and there were lots of people so hopefully I might make a few friends. I told myself that as long as I was always honest then it would be better to try to explore my faith with other people.
That was back in September when I started going regularly. I've also been going to a house group.
The thing is - finally getting to the point of this thread - whereas I've always never really doubted, even during the years when I wasn't doing anything about it, even during my year of praying on my own - now I feel like I'm really not sure any more. I've only really started to feel this way since about Christmas. I got disillusioned that things were taking a long time to change - I figured by now that going to church would have either re-ignited a stronger faith, or made me realise more clearly what I do believe and maybe go try out a different kind of church.
The reality is that that hasn't happened. I've got more comfortable being there and there have been times when I've enjoyed the worship particularly but I feel like a fraud.
I do plan to keep going, at least for now. I don't want to let go of the idea that it might all come together. I'm afraid of what I'll turn into if I walk away from faith again. So the plan is to keep going to my current church and maybe explore other options too - but that's scary so it'll take time and effort.
Sorry for being long-winded. It's nice to be able to share this stuff.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
Late Paul
I'm like you in that I was raised a Methodist and worked hard for the church, although I've never really had a 'conversion experience'. I too have grown somewhat distant from institutional church life, and I really don't know what God wants for me, or if he's even all that bothered.
The difference is that I'm a bit wary of going evangelical, although the vigour and youthfulness of those churches is appealing. On a purely spiritual level it just seems unwise to be struggling with faith in an evangelical setting which by definition prioritises certainty....
For me, MOTR or liberal catholic Anglicanism is better for the time being, because it doesn't assume a deep faith. I can just allow the words and the music to wash over me. The sermons are short and gentle, and not too demanding. I don't have to be emotional, or watch others being emotional (although that's good to see in others sometimes, so I do make a few visits to charismatic churches). And I can come and go as I wish.
Posted by Late Paul (# 37) on
:
Yes I'm aware that in some ways I've made a rod for my own back in going Evo. But I can't stress enough how scary it was going back to church and familiarity was a big plus. Also, even though it can be agenda-laden, people willing to be friendly and talk to me. And I am a bit of an odd fish now that I don't fit a lot of evangelical doctrine I still tend toward charismatic in my worship style. Tongues is a large part of my personal prayer life.
It's all very confusing tbh.
And I'm already wary against "being that guy" in home group. The one that only seems to bring up awkward questions. But at the same time I really value the fact that I can be with other Christians in a small enough setting to be able to discuss things at all.
Posted by piglet (# 11803) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
... it just seems unwise to be struggling with faith in an evangelical setting which by definition prioritises certainty ...
What very wise words. I was originally brought up as a Baptist, and never really felt that I fitted in; I didn't have the fiery zeal or obvious "holiness" of some of the people around me. Then I discovered serious church music (as opposed to the clappy choruses and Sankey hymns I'd been used to) and also that it might be possible for members of other denominations to get into Heaven ... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on
:
Paul Simon seems to touch a lot of bases here. At least he did for me.
I went through a massive "time of change" about 30 years ago now. There were a lot of external pressures on me at that time which had a lot to do with the questioning in me. Everything seemed to dissolve; belief structures, the sense that someone (or Someone) was really there, the meaning and value of gathering and what we did, prayer, worship etc. Went on for about 2 years. I struggled for a little while to "keep the old habits going" - some of that was a desire not to hurt friends and loved ones who were people of faith. That didn't last too long, basically because I am a lousy liar.
After a couple of months of living hollowed out like that and increasingly hating the "false of it" I threw in the sponge, said to my wife "this is the way I am and I guess I'm going to have to live with it, and so are you. But this God thing has just done my head and my heart in. Doesn't make sense to me. I think it's hurting me a lot." Cried a lot at that point - I was sad at what also seemed like a loss, and also desperately worried about how this might affect our relationship. She hugged me for a long time, didn't say much. Didn't need to.
I got a lot of peace out of that. Over the next couple of years, whenever I was reflecting, I would often find myself listened to this song in my mind, or playing it; seemed to touch a lot of places.
This thread isn't about journeys back and I won't trouble you with any details of mine. The short version is this. I'm very glad I discovered that the God I believed in then wasn't really there at all. A kind of smashing of a strange sort of "Golden Calf" took place. What re-emerged was profoundly different. Gentler, less scary. Kinder. More connected to what was real for me.
Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on
:
Thank you for that honest and encouraging post, Barnabas62. I think a thread about journeys back and how people's beliefs and perspectives have changed would be interesting. Personally I have not (yet ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
) lost the sense that there is Someone there but a lot of my beliefs about that Someone are under review. I am, I think, more secure in that place of change than I was. Consequently the fire and brimstone ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
sermon that was preached at my church this morning didn't disturb me the way it would have not so very long ago.
Nen - reeking of sulphur but about to put the kettle on for coffee.
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Nenya:
...Personally I have not (yet ) lost the sense that there is Someone there but a lot of my beliefs about that Someone are under review. I am, I think, more secure in that place of change than I was...
I can identify with that - I am not sure what the word God means, I am not sure what I believe...
...AND I do believe...
...AND I believe that that is all that I need.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Late Paul:
Yes I'm aware that in some ways I've made a rod for my own back in going Evo. But I can't stress enough how scary it was going back to church and familiarity was a big plus. Also, even though it can be agenda-laden, people willing to be friendly and talk to me. And I am a bit of an odd fish now that I don't fit a lot of evangelical doctrine I still tend toward charismatic in my worship style. Tongues is a large part of my personal prayer life.
You could have gone back to Methodism - that's not very scary!
Your interesting response has highlighted the fact that there are different kinds of doubting, though. For someone like me, spiritual silence is a difficulty. Yet you're still able to pray in tongues even though you're experiencing doubt. Speaking only for myself, if I had such spiritual connections with God I might pay less heed to my doubts....
Would you say that your doubts spring from a tension between your heart and your head? Is your doubt directed towards particular doctrinal positions rather than towards God's presence in your life?
I hope you don't mind me asking these questions, but your experience is in some ways encouraging for me, although I know it must be hard for you.
Posted by Late Paul (# 37) on
:
Talked to a lovely lady at church this morning who "lost her faith" (her words) for 20 years and only came back after the death of her husband. Made me feel less alone.
I'd also be interested in a "journey back" thread. I'm going out for a walk now but uf no-one else has I'll start it when I get back.
[ 19. January 2014, 14:30: Message edited by: Late Paul ]
Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Late Paul:
And I am a bit of an odd fish now that I don't fit a lot of evangelical doctrine I still tend toward charismatic in my worship style. Tongues is a large part of my personal prayer life.
Same kind of odd fish here too - I'm a liberal/universalist/doubter who still tends towards charismatic worship styles and still prays in tongues (when I can be bothered to pray at all).
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Nenya:
Thank you for that honest and encouraging post, Barnabas62. I think a thread about journeys back and how people's beliefs and perspectives have changed would be interesting. Personally I have not (yet ) lost the sense that there is Someone there but a lot of my beliefs about that Someone are under review. I am, I think, more secure in that place of change than I was. Consequently the fire and brimstone sermon that was preached at my church this morning didn't disturb me the way it would have not so very long ago.
Nen - reeking of sulphur but about to put the kettle on for coffee.
Yes. There is someone there, and also, here. I suppose I see this someone speaking in all religions, why not? However, this is provisional of course.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Late Paul:
And I am a bit of an odd fish now that I don't fit a lot of evangelical doctrine I still tend toward charismatic in my worship style. Tongues is a large part of my personal prayer life.
Same kind of odd fish here too - I'm a liberal/universalist/doubter who still tends towards charismatic worship styles and still prays in tongues (when I can be bothered to pray at all).
That's interesting. I often wonder how much doubt there is in such churches. There must be a fair amount, because many churches do tend to become more theologically liberal over time. The use of tongues often declines as well, so I'm told.
I think one reason why I can't bring myself to belong permanently to an evangelical church is that I don't want to see the process of liberalisation taking place around me, and I certainly don't want to contribute to it. Doubt is part of faith, yes. But doubt as we frequently experience it in our culture doesn't build strong churches, although it might be a helpful state of existence for certain individuals.
I'd rather keep my doubt for those parts of the CofE or the Methodist Church where it can't really do much harm. And where they can't do harm to me.
Posted by Latchkey Kid (# 12444) on
:
That's thought provoking SV2.
I am probably a liberal in an evangelical house church. I emphasise the Gospels in contrast to their emphasis on the epistles. My theology is more narrative while theirs is more propositional. We live in a New Age spirituality area and I look for similarities and points of contact rather than distinctiveness.
Together we can worship and support on another. I hope my challenges do not kill their spirit. They are wanting to be authentic.
Posted by Cara (# 16966) on
:
What an interesting and helpful thread...some wonderful and honest and moving posts, thank you to Nicodemia and Barnabas and Late Paul, but not only them...
WW, I love how you sit easy with your doubts....and your belief.
Quetzalcoatl, I too see paths to God in other religions..
As I've often said on the Ship, being brought up in strict Catholicism meant that for years and years I thought that there was, somewhere, The Truth, and if the Catholics didn't have it, I needed to find out who did...which evolved into a realisation that no one church can possibly have the Whole Truth, correct in every detail...which of course was the beginning of a sort of slide further and further away from any certainty about what I believe. Since I found the Anglican church, of course, I've been able to feel comfortable within it, even as my faith became feebler, because it doesn't demand certainties...But I haven't been to church for ages, first for geographical reasons,and now because I'm out of the habit...
I wonder, though, how much of our doubting and loss of faith is due to our simply straying away from what feeds us?
It's like when you slack off from exercise, although you know it's good for you...you start to think of yourself as a non-exerciser, and because you aren't getting the benefits, you start to think exercise isn't that important to you...but when you get back into it again, you say to yourself, Wow, this is amazing, I feel so much better, how did I forget all about this?
Can simply slipping into "bad" habits, or away from church-going and prayer habits, create and continue the loss of faith?
How important is discipline?
I'm a writer, but between projects am often lazy about writing..then I forget how to do it as a regular thing...it slips out of my life...I am not happy, I know I am missing out on something important to me, I know I am not truly me if not writing....but I fall out of the habit. (Hm. Maybe time for shore leave from the Ship!!)
When I get back into it, though, I am nourished! I am surprised all over again. I am fed at some deep level.
Same with church.
Spirit willing, flesh weak.....do we need other Christians??
But then, we fear we are being swept along in the crowd!
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
:
Nice post, Cara. I am a writer also, and am currently having a long holiday from it.
Your point about being away from the church is interesting, as I am currently well away. Sometimes I feel sad, but mainly a great relief.
I have spent 50 years going to church, so now this is my time, and I want to slip the leash and so on, and allow some emptiness and space in me, with less words.
But my life seems to be a series of letting gos at the moment, I stopped work, I stopped writing, several friends died, I've stopped being a Christian. I don't know how much further this can go. It reminds me of the great Heart Sutra, form is emptiness, and the very emptiness is form.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
See, liberalism theology-wise (although there are far more liberal Christians than me) makes perfect sense to me intellectually, so that is why I am a liberal Christian. But I don't feel wholly comfortable with it. I naturally go for more black and white standpoints. I am an INFJ and wonder if that has an impact? I tend to need a 'cause' to be very definite about.
Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Cara:
Can simply slipping into "bad" habits, or away from church-going and prayer habits, create and continue the loss of faith?
How important is discipline?
I think going away from habits like these can certainly contribute to a loss of belief and/or faith (if you want to distinguish the two, which I think I do). For me personally I don't think that's a contributory factor. I still attend church every Sunday, home group once a fortnight, a prayer group once a week and a lot of my reading is spiritually themed. My personal prayer life has never been particularly disciplined and because I'm changing my ideas about prayer I find it harder to do. As I said on the Anxiety thread, I'm much better at reading about prayer and meditation than I am at doing it. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
One discipline I have lost is regular Bible reading, but this is... not exactly deliberate... but I find the Bible scary. My reading of it has led me down paths I now regard as questionable and while several people have recommended reading it "through a different lens" (such as the unconditional, universal love of God) when I read those familiar phrases again my mind falls back into the old patterns.
Probably TMI. Sorry. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
See, liberalism theology-wise (although there are far more liberal Christians than me) makes perfect sense to me intellectually, so that is why I am a liberal Christian. But I don't feel wholly comfortable with it. I naturally go for more black and white standpoints. I am an INFJ and wonder if that has an impact? I tend to need a 'cause' to be very definite about.
Your 'J' (like mine) wants closure. But your 'F' and 'N' (also like mine!) wants to explore more.
So you/we are caught in a tension between parts of our personality.
But the tension is creative and worth bearing with it - a small cross compared to what some people have to bear - because it is life giving to others in the long run.
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on
:
Something there reminded me about the big Hindu temple at Chidambaram where, in the Sanctum Sanctorum there are two chambers, one contains an image of Lord Siva as Nataraja dancing creation into being and the other is equally revered AND completely empty as God can only be known in emptiness and cannot be defined by any human image.
Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
Something there reminded me about the big Hindu temple at Chidambaram where, in the Sanctum Sanctorum there are two chambers, one contains an image of Lord Siva as Nataraja dancing creation into being and the other is equally revered AND completely empty as God can only be known in emptiness and cannot be defined by any human image.
I like that very much, WW. Thank you.
Posted by Nicodemia (# 4756) on
:
Cara posted
quote:
I wonder, though, how much of our doubting and loss of faith is due to our simply straying away from what feeds us? and
Can simply slipping into "bad" habits, or away from church-going and prayer habits, create and continue the loss of faith?
No, Cara, I don't think my loss of faith and my doubts spring from 'bad habits'. This was hinted at to me at a Home Group meeting I went to, when I was asked why I read Scientific magazines if they made me doubt. Why not read the Bible?
Answer, because the Bible is not a scientific magazine, with all the latest news and discoveries. Nor do I want to live in a "Christian Bubble" and just meet with other Christians, talk with other Christians and reading Christian books. I live in a multiracial, multi-ethnic, technological world, and I don't want to cut myself off from any of it.
And I don't think Satan will wait for me to say "I wonder......" and jump in, leading me astray and filling my head with "non-Christian thoughts"
And if my faith can't stand up to living in such a world, then what is its integrity and value?
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
Something there reminded me about the big Hindu temple at Chidambaram where, in the Sanctum Sanctorum there are two chambers, one contains an image of Lord Siva as Nataraja dancing creation into being and the other is equally revered AND completely empty as God can only be known in emptiness and cannot be defined by any human image.
I like that. There seems to be both everything, and perfect emptiness. Or as some Buddhists say, this is empty of all characteristics. Yet the characteristics are also part of reality, as they come into being. It's a bit like the tide coming in and out, or a pair of bellows. In and out.
I think in the gospel of Thomas there is the saying, 'I am he who exists from the undivided', yet the undivided is also divided into fragments, each one of which contains the whole.
Posted by Cara (# 16966) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Nicodemia:
Cara posted
quote:
I wonder, though, how much of our doubting and loss of faith is due to our simply straying away from what feeds us? and
Can simply slipping into "bad" habits, or away from church-going and prayer habits, create and continue the loss of faith?
No, Cara, I don't think my loss of faith and my doubts spring from 'bad habits'. This was hinted at to me at a Home Group meeting I went to, when I was asked why I read Scientific magazines if they made me doubt. Why not read the Bible?
Answer, because the Bible is not a scientific magazine, with all the latest news and discoveries. Nor do I want to live in a "Christian Bubble" and just meet with other Christians, talk with other Christians and reading Christian books. I live in a multiracial, multi-ethnic, technological world, and I don't want to cut myself off from any of it.
And I don't think Satan will wait for me to say "I wonder......" and jump in, leading me astray and filling my head with "non-Christian thoughts"
And if my faith can't stand up to living in such a world, then what is its integrity and value?
Interesting, Nicodemia; but I agree with you (and not with your Home Group people); I don't think there's anything wrong with, eg, scientific magazines, and I absolutely think, as you do, that we should engage with our multi-faith, etc, world.
Perhaps I wasn't clear--when I said bad habits, I meant habits of omission. (And "bad" was in quotation marks). I was thinking rather of how I get lazy about doing things I know would feed me in some important way--exercise, churchgoing. How I just sort of ....get out of the habit.
Interesting that after I wrote this, Ingo posted-- on the thread about when one should just give up even calling oneself a Christian--about the importance of discipline in the midst of aridity.
You might think that it's my Catholic background that makes me bring up this discipline angle, but actually it's my life experience in the areas I've mentioned--exercise etc--where I see how easy it is to actually forget about the real benefits one received from certain activities.
Quetzalcoatl--very interesting about the letting go of all those things...and the gospel of Thomas quote in your latest post, following on from what WW said...
Jade Constable, is INFJ from the Enneagram? Can you remind me what these initials stand for?
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
INFJ is a Myers-Briggs Type Indicator type - an Enneagram is a different personality test (although fwiw I am 6 or The Loyalist). The initials stand for Introverted, iNtuition, Feeling, Judging. The opposite letters are Extraverted, Sensing, Thinking, Percieving.
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
:
Widely held by professionals in the field as being at best a tool for telling you back what your answers to the questions were.
Posted by roybart (# 17357) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Cara:
I wonder, though, how much of our doubting and loss of faith is due to our simply straying away from what feeds us?
I appreciate this insight very much, Cara. It is easy to slide away when you are not paying attention and begin readjusting expectations and changing standards. Staying -- with thoughtfulness, caring, and prayer -- probably does reinforce the aspirations that brought us to church in the first place.
quote:
Wow, this is amazing, I feel so much better, how did I forget all about this?
I've known this feeling, though possibly with a "hmmm" rather than a "wow." Same feeling, I think, operating on a different personality. When I hear or see or experience something extraordinary, it's useful to recall: "I'm so lucky to be here. I might have missed this."
Another thought I ought to keep in mind right now is something I heard at a 12-Step Meeting. A woman stormed out of a meeting, visibly upset. When asked what was troubling her, she responded: "I didn't get anything out of this meeting." The response was: "But what did you bring to the meeting?"
Posted by Cara (# 16966) on
:
Thanks Jade, of course--Myers-Briggs, not Enneagram; I knew that really!
But didn't recall what the letters stood for.
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by roybart:
Another thought I ought to keep in mind right now is something I heard at a 12-Step Meeting. A woman stormed out of a meeting, visibly upset. When asked what was troubling her, she responded: "I didn't get anything out of this meeting." The response was: "But what did you bring to the meeting?"
What does it mean when people ask that sort of question? I've never been able to make sense of it.
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by roybart:
Another thought I ought to keep in mind right now is something I heard at a 12-Step Meeting. A woman stormed out of a meeting, visibly upset. When asked what was troubling her, she responded: "I didn't get anything out of this meeting." The response was: "But what did you bring to the meeting?"
What does it mean when people ask that sort of question? I've never been able to make sense of it.
It seems to me to be tied in with Western notions of productivity, performance and profit. That is, there is spiritual exertion and spiritual goals.
I guess this is fine for some people, but it ignores the contemplative aspect of religion; it's a bit like the opposition of being to doing. Horses for courses, I suppose.
I also think some people don't have a lot to give, and not a lot to produce or perform. What happens to them?
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on
:
To me it is about the difference between coming to a situation, using a 12-Step meeting as an example, wanting to be fixed and others coming to learn things that will help them to fix themselves. The first ones are the types who will go away unsatisfied as they are not willing to put in the work whereas the second is there to take tools from the meeting to help them in their self-driven change process.
I'm not sure I've put that as well as I could but it's late and way past my bedtime.
eta: ...or it is like the first is saying "Carry me on this path!" and the second is saying "Can we walk this path together so we can help one another if we stumble?"
[ 24. January 2014, 14:59: Message edited by: Welease Woderwick ]
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
To me it is about the difference between coming to a situation, using a 12-Step meeting as an example, wanting to be fixed and others coming to learn things that will help them to fix themselves. The first ones are the types who will go away unsatisfied as they are not willing to put in the work whereas the second is there to take tools from the meeting to help them in their self-driven change process.
I'm not sure I've put that as well as I could but it's late and way past my bedtime.
It's a fair point, but it's not as black and white as that. I remember people who were just battered and bruised, and just wanted a place where they could sit and be, and not be intruded upon. (I'm not talking about churches here).
Eventually, they may be able to be more pro-active, but in my work, I was willing to allow them recovery time, which might last years.
To start hassling them with injunctions to get cracking, and show willing - would be ludicrous, and actually, damaging.
I don't see why churches, or Christians in general, should be any less sympathetic. I suppose you might end up with a room full of walking wounded - well, if that irks, take up coaching Olympic athletes!
Posted by Starbug (# 15917) on
:
When I first became a Christian, I was very battered and bruised as I came from an extremely disfunctional family. One day, I poured out my feelings to an older couple at my church, whom I admired. Their response was to tell me I was thinking of myself too much and I should go out and help others, which stip me being so self-centered. (I'm paraphrasing - they didn't actually say it like that, but that was the gist of it.)
I was already feeling vulnerable and empty. I joined the St John Ambulance as a way of serving the community and to stop focusing on myself, but found that I just felt even more vulnerable and empty, but wearing a smart uniform. Looking back now, I can see that their advice was completely wrong and, in fact, it caused me a lot of resentment. After all, why did the people I was serving as a volunteer deserve extra help when I couldn't have any?
Sometimes, people can't bring anything to the party becuase they are too broken. They need to be cared for, like Elijah in the wilderness, before they can start to care for others.
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on
:
Fair points from both quetzalcoatl and Starbug.
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
:
Great post, Starbug. That injunction to stop thinking about yourself makes me grind my teeth. Some people have nobody else to think about them - would you take that away as well? I suppose it's folk psychology - also cruel and inane.
Sometimes it is true - there are people who are over-full of themselves, but there are also people who are empty. There is no one-size recipe.
Posted by FooloftheShip (# 15579) on
:
I have a friend to whom quetzacoatl's point applies very much. To all external appearances, he is very successful, but I have an ongoing suspicion, fuelled by my many conversations with him, that he is emotionally and spiritually profoundly bruised, in a way that he finds it almost impossible to do any more than report on; healing seems to be beyond the realm of possibility because he won't get inside his own feelings.
As a result, he remains very much an attender at church rather than a core member of the congregation, in a way that infuriates some of the more "enthusiastic" members of the congregation, who see him as an able-bodied person who refuses to pull his weight. My fear is that this may drive him away entirely, because he isn't being allowed simply to sit with his own bruisedness without having to account for it and indeed almost brandish it to get the activists to go away and give him the space he needs but finds it hard to ask for.
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
:
FooloftheShip
Your word 'infuriates' caught my eye, and it rings true to me. It actually makes me suspect the activists, if they are so caught up in someone else's issues, and want to demand that they act like them. How come? Intense heavy brooding psychoanalytic thoughts come to mind, but I will not speak them.
Posted by FooloftheShip (# 15579) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
FooloftheShip
Your word 'infuriates' caught my eye, and it rings true to me. It actually makes me suspect the activists, if they are so caught up in someone else's issues, and want to demand that they act like them. How come? Intense heavy brooding psychoanalytic thoughts come to mind, but I will not speak them.
Amen on all fronts. Here's a question for you: does all activism fundamentally spring from neurosis?
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by FooloftheShip:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
FooloftheShip
Your word 'infuriates' caught my eye, and it rings true to me. It actually makes me suspect the activists, if they are so caught up in someone else's issues, and want to demand that they act like them. How come? Intense heavy brooding psychoanalytic thoughts come to mind, but I will not speak them.
Amen on all fronts. Here's a question for you: does all activism fundamentally spring from neurosis?
I don't think so. I've met plenty of genuine extroverts, who just like to be busy, and I don't think they are hiding some terrible trauma.
But you do get the neurotic activists, definitely, who can't tolerate non-activism. In fact, maybe this is a criterion that one could use - one's tolerance of difference. If you are an extrovert, how is your tolerance of the introvert?
But it's very very messy, lots of complications and contradictions. For example, a lot of actors seem to be introverts really, and you find introverts raising hell at parties.
Posted by JoannaP (# 4493) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Great post, Starbug. That injunction to stop thinking about yourself makes me grind my teeth. Some people have nobody else to think about them - would you take that away as well? I suppose it's folk psychology - also cruel and inane.
After all the commandment is to love your neighbour as yourself, not more than yourself, which implies that we must care for ourselves.
Posted by JoannaP (# 4493) on
:
I tried to change "must" to "should" but am having network problems here so could not do it in time...
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Great post, Starbug. That injunction to stop thinking about yourself makes me grind my teeth. Some people have nobody else to think about them - would you take that away as well? I suppose it's folk psychology - also cruel and inane.
After all the commandment is to love your neighbour as yourself, not more than yourself, which implies that we must care for ourselves.
Absolutely. There's a well-known process whereby people who were once impervious to others' suffering, discover their own, and once they have made that breakthrough, which may be long and painful, they tend to be more open to others. So if someone has a wall up about their own pain, they tend to wall off others. It's rather obvious really.
Simone Weil: 'the false god turns suffering into violence; the true god turns violence into suffering'.
Posted by Late Paul (# 37) on
:
I somehow missed this earlier:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Late Paul:
Yes I'm aware that in some ways I've made a rod for my own back in going Evo. But I can't stress enough how scary it was going back to church and familiarity was a big plus. Also, even though it can be agenda-laden, people willing to be friendly and talk to me. And I am a bit of an odd fish now that I don't fit a lot of evangelical doctrine I still tend toward charismatic in my worship style. Tongues is a large part of my personal prayer life.
You could have gone back to Methodism - that's not very scary!
Well, I hadn't really been a Methodist for a long time, even when I was still going to church. Also I discovered when I left home at 18 that Methodism in general is a lot more MOTR and less evangelical than I was used to. Which actually could be a good thing but it's not the same thing I grew up with.
(Actually the changes in my parents' church are interesting on that score. I'm not sure the thing I grew up with even exists where I grew up any more! But that's a whole other thread probably)
But I did try a Methodist church and it was OK. It wasn't scary but I was still scared, that's my issue. It was quite small - although on the day I went there was a joint service with an Anglican church and half of them were at that. Apart from the preacher I was the only white person there. I'd love to say that didn't make a difference but it did a little bit. But it was friendly without being too pushy and I liked that I knew most of the hymns!
quote:
Your interesting response has highlighted the fact that there are different kinds of doubting, though. For someone like me, spiritual silence is a difficulty. Yet you're still able to pray in tongues even though you're experiencing doubt. Speaking only for myself, if I had such spiritual connections with God I might pay less heed to my doubts....
I think that's where I was at when I was praying on my own all those months. Speaking in tongues is just something I can sort of do - which in itself makes some people sceptical - so it doesn't necessarily make me feel closer to God so much as it makes me feel like I'm praying without having to think up words. My mind is often muddled or I lose track.
quote:
Would you say that your doubts spring from a tension between your heart and your head? Is your doubt directed towards particular doctrinal positions rather than towards God's presence in your life?
I think my doubts have started coming to the fore since I joined a house group. I thought this would be good way to get to know people better and get a bit more involved. However we've mainly been a bible study group so far and listening to people talk about how they read the bible is really revealing. There's like this base level of assumptions that I realise I no longer share and that I'm not sure they're even aware of. And because I'm there primarily to become more involved, be part of something rather than question everything I don't bring it up a lot because otherwise I'd sidetrack every discussion.
So I think it is particular doctrinal positions. I also think my experience of God in my life is based a lot on wanting to believe there's a larger force for good in the universe and acting on that. So I choose to believe God exists and that he is good and I pray and worship. That helps me but I'm not sure it leads necessarily to accepting the Bible as inerrant or other faiths as wrong.
quote:
I hope you don't mind me asking these questions, but your experience is in some ways encouraging for me, although I know it must be hard for you.
Not at all. I hope you don't mind the long-winded answers. It's nice to be able to share this stuff. I can only let it out in little bits at church because I worry about overwhelming the conversation.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
Late Paul
I see. Well, perhaps if you bide your time for a while and build up your Bible knowledge you could request to be given your own house group to run. Then you could provide a little more openness.
Perhaps house groups and their leaders are tightly controlled, but have you thought of setting up an optional group? I've often dreamed of starting a church reading group, where people would explore religious and non-religious material, fiction and otherwise, from a broadly Christian perspective. I think people would feel able to be a bit more honest in such an environment, whereas Bible studies can lead to people tip-toeing around their doubts and concerns.
If you don't think there'd be much interest in your church alone, perhaps you could do something ecumenically? It might take a while to build up some ecumenical connections first, but most churches want to pay lip service to ecumenicalism these days, so it's hard to see how your church could object to the idea in theory. Again, the fact that there would be different kinds of Christians meeting together should discourage participants from being too dogmatic.
However, I know you're new to your church and you don't want to draw attention to yourself, so perhaps this is something to consider in the long term.
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
:
The church here has a spiritual book club. It doesn't just read Christian books, but Jewish and other books dealing with spirituality and ethics have been discussed. I did it for a bit, but drifted out. There's a book to read every 4-6 weeks and I did read some interesting books as a result.
quetzalcoatl has said something that's twanged a chord with me - the challenge of doing nothing in churches. Where do you go to recharge and just be? One of the things I said as I walked away was that there was nothing for me unless I organised and ran it.
Some of that is being excluded from some groups, I'm single, so not a part of the married couples group, not retired, so not part of that group, child grown up, so no longer part of the families group.
Some is that much of what is run is by evangelical people, who actually don't want me there as I'm not on message. Having been laughed out of one Bible study because I brought along a NJB not a NIV Bible, and persuaded to go to others to express alternative views, I find those groups difficult. I grind my teeth at the way prayers are phrased as demands to God to do things on their terms, which makes it sound to me as if they have their own personal god in their pockets. I think prayer is about listening to God and aligning your will with his.
I also can't work out a way to deal with the literal interpretation of the Bible and YECcie-ism - arguing is pointless, it just makes the whole thing unpleasant, sitting still and seeming to agree isn't particularly fun either.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
Curiosity killed.....
I'm glad to hear that you know of a successful church reading group and that it doesn't just exist in my mind!
It makes sense to leave a church that's not really aimed at someone like you and isn't congenial. Anyway, living in London there must be lots of choice? When I lived in London in the 90s I worshipped at a very central Methodist church, racially mixed, theologically tolerant, and I was young enough at the time to attend their 20s-30s evening group, which was in no way designed to promote a strict theological perspective.
Back in the West Midlands, I find there are liberal Catholic and Methodist Bible studies in the vicinity, so you don't always have to go evangelical for these things.
I did go through a brief phase of attending a new and fairly strict evangelical church many years ago (before going to London), but realised I just didn't fit in there or feel happy. The person who invited me was getting grumpy that I hadn't committed myself. I felt better for leaving.
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
:
I'm not in London - I work in London but it's an hour to two hours commute depending on where I'm going. Which means that weekends I get to the point where I don't want to spend another 3 or 4 hours on the tube, thank you very much.
Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Late Paul:
I think my doubts have started coming to the fore since I joined a house group. I thought this would be good way to get to know people better and get a bit more involved. However we've mainly been a bible study group so far and listening to people talk about how they read the bible is really revealing. There's like this base level of assumptions that I realise I no longer share and that I'm not sure they're even aware of. And because I'm there primarily to become more involved, be part of something rather than question everything I don't bring it up a lot because otherwise I'd sidetrack every discussion.
I find this thought-provoking as when Mr Nen and I came into membership of the evangelical Baptist church of which we're now a part I knew it was important to me to remain in the ecumenical home group I've belonged to for years. It's a place where we're all free to question and express what we're feeling and struggling with. Mr Nen and I went to one of the Baptist home groups together once and I just knew I would have to be continually on my guard there, or biting my tongue, or as you say sidetracking every discussion. It's easier to disagree with things in the services - people are less likely to notice.
I feel for you, Late Paul. It's a hard situation to be in when you're trying to be more involved.
Posted by Cara (# 16966) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by roybart:
quote:
Originally posted by Cara:
I wonder, though, how much of our doubting and loss of faith is due to our simply straying away from what feeds us?
I appreciate this insight very much, Cara. It is easy to slide away when you are not paying attention and begin readjusting expectations and changing standards. Staying -- with thoughtfulness, caring, and prayer -- probably does reinforce the aspirations that brought us to church in the first place.
quote:
Wow, this is amazing, I feel so much better, how did I forget all about this?
I've known this feeling, though possibly with a "hmmm" rather than a "wow." Same feeling, I think, operating on a different personality. When I hear or see or experience something extraordinary, it's useful to recall: "I'm so lucky to be here. I might have missed this."
Another thought I ought to keep in mind right now is something I heard at a 12-Step Meeting. A woman stormed out of a meeting, visibly upset. When asked what was troubling her, she responded: "I didn't get anything out of this meeting." The response was: "But what did you bring to the meeting?"
Roybart--I missed this earlier. Glad you saw what I was trying to say.
Ironically, this morning I thought I really ought to practise what I preached and get myself back to church, spent too long checking that the church I thought I wanted to go to was still the most congenial of the nearby choices (am back in a town I know well but haven't lived in full-time as an Anglican)...it was, but of course it has Communion at 10 am, rather than the preferable (to me!) 10:30, and I didn't get my act together in time....
so here I am, sort-of-at-church on the Ship!
I agree with quetzalcoatl and others who point out that sometimes people are so battered and bruised, they come to church (or to a 12-step meeting) looking only for help and refuge--unable to bring anything specific or to give anything back--yet.
On the other hand, the words "what did you bring to this meeting?" do offer food for thought--however battered and bruised, one can at least bring a desire to be helped and an openness to whatever way that might happen...which would mean not being angry, and not demanding of a particular kind of help...
Re more recent posts, I really love the idea of a spiritual reading group--I once led a spiritual reading evening in my previous church, and it was very well received, I think this would be such an excellent thing to have regularly.
Also really like the idea of an ecumenical home group.
Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on
:
I don't see what's wrong with being angry. I've known tons of people who were angry with God or the church. Are they to be barred from attending?
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I'm not in London - I work in London but it's an hour to two hours commute depending on where I'm going. Which means that weekends I get to the point where I don't want to spend another 3 or 4 hours on the tube, thank you very much.
Ah, my geographical awareness is at fault!
I also tend to assume that everyone has some sort of doubt-friendly MOTR or low-key liberal Catholic type of church in their vicinity, but the Ship teaches me often that this isn't true. In any case, these types of churches do present challenges of their own. I might start a thread about this, probably in Purgatory.
[ 26. January 2014, 14:27: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I don't see what's wrong with being angry. I've known tons of people who were angry with God or the church. Are they to be barred from attending?
Agree. The phrase still sounds like victim blaming and shooting the wounded to me.
Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on
:
I've got no problem with people deciding to attend Church worship to cure themselves of anger . That's much the reason why I took it up .
Not sure I'm entirely cured though
What causes me to doubt the benefits of Church attendance is when it seems to give rise to anger in some folks .
Posted by Jemima the 9th (# 15106) on
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Extremely belatedly, having read this thread veeery sloowly over many weeks, I'd like to add my thanks to DT for starting it, and for everyone's thoughtful and honest contributions.
My own process of doubt has been going on for about 6 years now. I did think I was coming back to faith, but I think I'm on my way out now. And it wasn't either of the Satan's fork options (an excellent post & blog, thank you Gumby, I'm going to pass those on in future) it began with the nagging feeling that, well, this is just all a bit daft, really. I can relate very well to the idea of opitical illusion, in fact at the moment I find that helpful as I'm not thinking too much about it.
I find the endless worrying (as in dog worrying at bone) frustrating - sitting in church thinking "Well, I'm not sure about that bit. But does that mean I don't believe this bit either? Ah. Wonder if that means I'm still a Christian then? What about that bit? Does it matter if I believe it or not? And Gosh that's an awful song. Whose idea was that?" - it goes on and on and round and round, and I do wish it would stop.
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
All I really have is too much emotional capital sunk into the faith to easily give it up, and a nagging fear of doing so unless and until I'm absolutely sure it really is irrational bullshit. And a small quiet hope, born of desperation.
This too. I have practical investment too (er, if that's a phrase) - I'm playing as part of a worship group tomorrow and, following what you were saying about the Bible, there's a song about God being "Mighty to save". Well. I can't feel that He is any more. There's too much evidence to the contrary. Too much suffering.
And is this God to be worshipped, really? If He is loving and yet unable to save, isn't pity more appropriate?
<sigh>
I'm sorry. I feel a lot like a petulant teenager.
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on
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I don't think you sound at all petulant - I think it is very healthy to continue to question as we get older - how else can we grow?
I respect people with a deep and abiding faith BUT I think that for some of us it is more of a fight - and really that is right and as it should be.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
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quote:
Originally posted by Jemima the 9th:
I find the endless worrying (as in dog worrying at bone) frustrating - sitting in church thinking "Well, I'm not sure about that bit. But does that mean I don't believe this bit either? Ah. Wonder if that means I'm still a Christian then? What about that bit? Does it matter if I believe it or not? And Gosh that's an awful song. Whose idea was that?" - it goes on and on and round and round, and I do wish it would stop.
[...] I have practical investment too (er, if that's a phrase) - I'm playing as part of a worship group tomorrow and, following what you were saying about the Bible, there's a song about God being "Mighty to save". Well. I can't feel that He is any more. There's too much evidence to the contrary. Too much suffering.
And is this God to be worshipped, really? If He is loving and yet unable to save, isn't pity more appropriate?
If I may say so, you sound like another non-evangelical in an evangelical church. Maybe low-key MOTR Anglicanism would be more helpful, because it doesn't really insist on the need to understand, believe or accept everything.
As for suffering in a supposedly God-made world, I can only speak for myself, but it keeps me hanging on when I observe that those who turn to atheism or theophobia as a consequence are rarely the world's greatest sufferers themselves. Do the hurting people of Syria, Haiti, Ukraine or the Central African Republic want us to abandon God on their behalf? Generally speaking, I doubt it. Should I ever walk away from God it won't be because I understand the theological implications of other people's suffering better than they do. My reasons would be much more mundane, I think. Or just more selfish. That's just me, though.
Posted by Jemima the 9th (# 15106) on
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Thank you both. SV2- I think you're right about my church. But (as I was pondering yesterday) this is my church, my family, it's where my friends are and for all the occasional irritation I must cause them they seem happy enough to put up with me. If it were just me, and/or if I wasn't involved in "useful" things, I would probably be off somewhere else.
Good point regarding suffering too.
WW, I hadn't thought in terms of a fight. That's a good way of putting it. The deep & abiding faith point is important - I think in my current discomfort / irritation with faith I (mis)characterise other people's faith as shouty and perhaps shallow, and that's doing most of them a great disservice.
I meant to add also that our church has had a "theology book group" - for want of a better title. I've enjoyed discussing the issues raised - the woolly liberal in me likes pontificating without having to commit, perhaps. We've studied Tom Wright's "Surprised by hope" which irritated me. Now we're on to Rowan Williams' "Resurrection" which I'm enjoying much more.
As always I find the mighty Nick Cave puts things better than I ever could:
Well, most of all nothing much ever really happens
And God rides high up in the ordinary sky
Until we find ourselves at our most distracted
And the miracle that was promised creeps quietly by
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