Ship of Fools: alcoholism - friends and family

Thread: alcoholism - friends and family Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Taliesin (# 14017) on :

I'd like to discuss strategies for dealing with alcoholics, and share a lot of 'what not to do' before I fatally fall over my own feet.

Is it helpful to refuse to speak to an alcoholic when they are drunk? Seems that any conversations I do have are forgotten. I'm trying to call in the morning, but they don't do mornings. So is it helpful or a red rag to say, I can't talk to you now because you've already been drinking, please call me tomorrow. ?

Can anyone recommend a good advice resource for dealing with relatives/friends we aren't living with.

(there is such a difference. I was once married to an alcoholic. Whole other ballgame.)

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

It probably depends on the person. (not helpful, I know)

The bigger problem IMHO is that the further they get into alcoholism, the more they become subject to random blackouts at any time, regardless of whether they have had a drink in the recent past. Brain damage, I think. They walk and talk and look perfectly normal and will vehemently deny ever having that conversation with you two weeks later--even though there are witnesses. And they truly believe it, because they were operating in a blackout at the time.

The only thing I could find to do was to just assume that whatever I told the person would very likely be forgotten, and make contingency plans. So I would think, "Okay, I told X about the party/wedding/funeral/whatever, but if he forgets--and there's a good chance of it--what will I do to deal with the situation?" Which might mean being sure I had alternate transportation/photo taker/flower arranger or what-have-you. It's sort of like dealing with a person with intermittent dementia. You just have to live around it.

Which is not to say that you shouldn't keep trying to get them help. But keep in mind that even if they do sober up, they may never be memory-reliable again. It depends on the amount of brain damage.

ETA: in case of big or legal decisions, always get it in writing, with a signature and date. And stock up on lots of patience.

[ 23. March 2014, 23:39: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]

Posted by PataLeBon (# 5452) on :

My uncle used to call my mother when he was drunk. Mom said it was the same conversation over and over again. Dad never understood why she talked to him when he never remembered the conversation. Uncle would also talk about getting sober, which Mom would agree with, but in the morning, Uncle would deny he had a problem.

He had to come to the realization he needed to get sober on his own (and when he wasn't drunk as a skunk...).

To be honest, I would go with your own gut feelings. If it's that talking to this person will do you or them no good, then don't. It's not worth your time and worry.

If you will worry if you don't talk to them (which was my Mom's situation), then do, but don't expect them to change. They will have to do that on their own.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

Having had an alcoholic next-door neighbour until he managed to kill himself by smoking whilst drunk and setting the sofa, and flat, on fire, the best advice I was given was to hold back. That I could not solve anything for him, he had to come to terms with his alcoholism and sort it out himself. Until he wanted to stop drinking he would just take and take without any realisation that he was doing so.

The other little wrinkle was handling the violence when he was drunk, so I got to know the police and ambulance service well for a while.

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

Taliesin:

quote:
Is it helpful to refuse to speak to an alcoholic when they are drunk? Seems that any conversations I do have are forgotten. I'm trying to call in the morning, but they don't do mornings. So is it helpful or a red rag to say, I can't talk to you now because you've already been drinking, please call me tomorrow. ?

The person will or will not make a decision to stop drinking. Stopping drinking is the only thing that would be "helpful", and it isn't in your hands. It's in the hands of his Higher Power and himself. That being said, you do what is best for yourself. If you don't want to talk to him while he is drunk, don't. If you want to tell him the reason that you don't want to talk to him is drunkeness, go ahead. If that makes him cranky and you don't want to deal with his mood, just tell him you'll talk later.

I lost a friend at the end of last year from a heart attack, probably partially due to alcoholism. I really liked him, but not so much when he was drunk. If I only talked to him when he was totally sober, I probably never would have talked to him. But I had my limits. And when I didn't want to be with him, I told him so. But I made it clear that he was still my friend, and that I would see him soon. (That might be a little more difficult with a spouse.)

Basically, unless the alcoholic is your minor child, you are not responsible for him. If he starts considering quitting it will be because of God's grace and the natural consequences of his behavior which might include people not wanting to talk with him at times. It probably won't be due to lectures, tirades, or crying (not saying you do any of those. Just saying in general).

Have you tried AlAnon? It is very helpful for friends and families of alcoholics. They can really help you clarify boundaries for yourself.

Posted by Thyme (# 12360) on :

Al-Anon

You can buy their literature from the website. It is excellent but I strongly recommend finding a meeting or phoning their helpline so you can talk to someone on the phone or meet someone.

If you go to a meeting they will give you a pack of basic literature.

In answer to your specific question; no there is no point to talking to a drunk alcoholic, and often not a lot of point talking to a sober one [Roll Eyes]

. Tell them you will talk when they are sober and put the phone down.

But as others have said, if it makes you feel better talking to them while they are drunk, go ahead. Just do not have any expectations that they will remember the conversation or rely on what they say during it.

There are many blogs writing about the experience of living with/dealing with an alcoholic. Just google. Meanwhile here are a few I like, they link to others.

here

here

here

[ 24. March 2014, 06:22: Message edited by: Thyme ]

Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :

There are certainly AA web support groups through things like Yahoogroups, etc. There may well be Al-Anon support groups too, it is certainly worth checking out.

I am another who agrees that talking to the bottle is a waste of time - suggesting someone call you later when they are sober may well get forgotten but it certainly is the best way to defend yourself.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

Really can't top what has already been said but:

1.Absolutely Yes to Thyme and Lyda

2. For me, reaching out to Alanon was a life-saving decision. My life, to be clear. I strongly encourage you to check them out.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

How difficult for you both - you because you realise the problem and them because they don't.

Not all alcoholics become aggressive when in-drink, but the memory problem makes speaking to them when drunk something that will only releve your feelings, not touch theirs.

Having been brought up with an alcoholic in the house I'd say the lying is one of the biggest problems - and they don't just lie to you, they lie to themselves.

As said above, AA and support groups for partners.

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:

Having been brought up with an alcoholic in the house I'd say the lying is one of the biggest problems - and they don't just lie to you, they lie to themselves.

Again this underlines the value of support groups. Things can get very surreal when an alcoholic/ dry drunk/ untreated codependent seems to religiously believe things that are light years away from the truth- claim they never said things or did things that they did. for instance. When you sit in one of those rooms and hear your story being told over and over again, you are free to believe that you are not crazy.

Put the oxygen mask over your face first.

Posted by Thyme (# 12360) on :

Just want to add that one of, possibly the most important things I learnt was that the best and only thing to do is look after yourself, not the alcoholic.

Sounds hard, but there really is nothing or very little you can do for them.

'Detach with love' is the Al-Anon mantra.

Also, 'You didn't cause it, you can't control it, and you can't cure it'

So look after yourself.

This means letting the alcoholic face the consequences of their alcoholism.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

We gained someone into our family, by marriage, whose life was blighted by a relative's alcohol abuse. From experiences and insight gained during that most difficult time, Lyda Rose's advice (above) resonates, as does the middle story in Thyme's links. Also, whether or not he chooses to post here, Pyx_e's advice was of great help. Because of that, I'd suggest finding others who have gone through similar experiences and asking them for advice. It always means more when someone else has gone through the same problems, they know whereof they speak.

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

My friend got through adolescence in one piece with the aid of Al-Teen and says pretty much the same thing. You’ve got to look after yourself first, decide how much you’re willing to take on board and then leave them to get on with it.

Having support from others is invaluable – it’s easy to think it’s just you and everyone else’s life is just wonderful. Support also makes it easier to decide what your boundaries are and then stick to them. (My mate’s parent was highly manipulative and very good at getting people to do what they wanted – and having external support made it much easier not to get sucked in).

It’s kind of the elephant in the room – everyone else can see it’s there, but until the person with the problem acknowledges it and does something about it, then all you can do is try and protect yourself from the worst.

Tubbs

Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :

I have come to see alcoholism as an all consuming, insane and self destructive love affair. I look back to my first real life infatuation with another person and how she dominated by every thought and movement, I would suffer endless humiliations to be near her, I hung on her every word and nothing else mattered.

So if I think of a drinking alcoholic as being like that, but MUCH worse. The infatuation is mostly terminal, all things are sacrificed to it, sanity, health, wives, husbands, friends, endless money, children, jobs ...... everything. And Everything is given with what can be seen as a toss of the hand. If the choice is my child or drink, if I am forced I will choose the drink. I love my kid, but I love drink more. I will not die without my kid, I will without drink.

Was there any point in talking to me about her? No.

Is there any point in talking to a drunk who is in the “arms” of drink, hell no. As has been noted there is also little point talking to a alcoholic who is without booze. The desire for it is all consuming. There may be a window of seeming normality (after one or two drinks) but it is fleeting. There are years of my life I cannot remember, never mind single conversations.

And has been further noted, look after yourself, the alcoholic can’t and if he looks like s/he is trying it is only to steal money from you. In the end it was when everyone stopped enabling me and pretending that life was normal that I hit my isolated rock bottom.

I love and have loved many alcoholics and have seen many die. I walk on the side of the river now, I can’t dive in to save them, they will only drown me. And hardly notice. Thinking of them as already dead helps a little bit. Maybe they will find their higher power and be dragged onto the shore. I pray so.

There is sometimes some pride in “normal” people that sort of says “If I love them enough.....” or “If only I can come up with the right words......” Again. Look after yourself and be careful! This is dangerous ground. No one likes to find the object of their love is not faithful.

Fly Safe,

Pyx_e

Posted by Meg the Red (# 11838) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
dry drunk/ untreated codependent

Thanks for including this; I've spent a lot of time wondering if I'm going crazy.

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :

[Overused]

Pyx_e

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

Pyx_e

You words echo much of my experience of going out with an alcoholic. I am no longer and fortunately for him he is a workaholic to and the addiction to work is stronger than that to alcohol. I alcohol threatens work then alcohol goes. But for me, no, never for me. When I went out with him I knew he cut short his time with me so as to get to the drink.

Jengie

Posted by Taliesin (# 14017) on :

thank you for sharing thoughts and experiences.

I'm working with it.

Posted by Nicolemr (# 28) on :

Another shout-out for Al-anon here. It has saved my sanity I think. I don't know where I'd be without it.

And agreeing that it's worthless talking to the bottle.

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