Ship of Fools: New Church

Thread: New Church Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

To visit this thread, use this URL:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=70;t=026963

Posted by The Weeder (# 11321) on :

I hope I have not already posted about this somewhere else on the Ship- but if I have, forgive me- I am a little bit sea sick.

I have jumped ship- or at least Church, and am now attending my Parish Church.

And it is totally bizzare and wonderful!

On Sunday last, my 4th or 5th attendence, I found myself sitting beside a young lad- 14 years old. It was his first time at the Church.

In fact, his first time at ANY Church. He had decided to come and see what it was all about.

As it happened, it was the Annual Church Meeting. We moved into the Church Hall for this, and stayed together, for solidarity and support.

The Church needed to nominate 2 members to the Deanary Synod- and we were both asked to take on the roles!

Me because I am a glutton for punishment, and a Licensed Lay Reader, and him because the Church would have the youngest Synod member in the Dioceses.

We agreed.

I still can not quite grasp how this has happened.

But I think I love this Church.

[ 08. April 2014, 23:46: Message edited by: The Weeder ]

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

I can see why.

What's a Deanery?

Posted by piglet (# 11803) on :

My understanding of a Deanery in that sense (as opposed to the place where a Dean lives) is a group of local churches whose clergy and one or two laity from each meet occasionally to discuss matters of mutual concern.

Weeder, I'm delighted to hear that you've settled so happily into your new church - it's not always an easy move to make.

I decided at about 15 that the church I'd been brought up in wasn't really for me, and started attending the local cathedral, which was Church of Scotland, but with a good choir and proper music, which was what drew me to it. It was a bit odd at first, because in a very small town (population about 6,000), everybody knew (a) who I was, and (b) which church my family attended, and were somewhat curious as to why I'd jumped ship.

Once they got over that [Paranoid]

it was fine: they were very welcoming, and in due course I joined the choir and married the organist* ... [Big Grin]

My only church moves since have been because D's work has taken us to other cathedrals, and it's been obvious why I was there (and in both I've been lucky enough to join the choir, and get involved in the "cathedral family").

* eta: not the same one who was there when I was 15.

[ 09. April 2014, 00:59: Message edited by: piglet ]

Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :

Lovely story, The Weeder.

My first parish role was as a rep on Deanery Synod but I think I was 17 rather than 14 - and I thus got an ex-officio seat on the PCC [Parochial Church Council]. It has just occurred to me exactly how many years ago that all was [Eek!]

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

Where are you based? I thought the minimum age to serve on PCC or Deanery Synod was 16.

Posted by Polly Plummer (# 13354) on :

When we moved in 2010 I decided that, while we were settling in and getting to know people, I would join/do anything anyone asked me to. And that's how I came to be on the Deanery Synod, one of the least interesting/inspiring experiences of my life - which I'm delighted to say I've now retired from !

YMMV

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by piglet:
My understanding of a Deanery in that sense (as opposed to the place where a Dean lives) is a group of local churches whose clergy and one or two laity from each meet occasionally to discuss matters of mutual concern.

Deaneries are more important than that.

They are the constituency that voes people on to diocesan and general synods.

In this diocese, at least, they hold a devolved budget and can decide to redeploy clergy and close churches.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Weeder:
I hope I have not already posted about this somewhere else on the Ship- but if I have, forgive me- I am a little bit sea sick.

I have jumped ship- or at least Church, and am now attending my Parish Church.

And it is totally bizzare and wonderful!

On Sunday last, my 4th or 5th attendence, I found myself sitting beside a young lad- 14 years old. It was his first time at the Church.

In fact, his first time at ANY Church. He had decided to come and see what it was all about.

As it happened, it was the Annual Church Meeting. We moved into the Church Hall for this, and stayed together, for solidarity and support.

The Church needed to nominate 2 members to the Deanary Synod- and we were both asked to take on the roles!

Me because I am a glutton for punishment, and a Licensed Lay Reader, and him because the Church would have the youngest Synod member in the Dioceses.

We agreed.

I still can not quite grasp how this has happened.

But I think I love this Church.

Er, aren't you just a little bit concerned about this? A church you've only attended on a few occasions invites you, together with a 14 y/o boy who is attending for the first time, to represent them at a denominational committee? It's not as if it's the litter rota for the churchyard is it - it's part of the laities involvement in the supposed government of the CofE.

Yes it's nice to be wanted but do you know anything about their history and they, yours? Why is there no one else who can stand? Do you know what you're taking on? Will they train/prepare you for it?

It's great to get young people involved but at 14, he can't participate in any vote that has legal implications (finance, contracts, premises), possibly even spiritual issues given the CofE's established position. If it's simply to gain a bit of Kudos by having the youngest member of the Deanery Synod, then what kind of motive is that?

Yes, its a party pooper but personally I'd think again about it and if I was Rural Dean, I don't think I'd be impressed. You'd be starting on a downer.

Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :

Sorry but I would be concerned too. Sounds a bit like no-one else would do it, and I have to wonder why.

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

I agree. I'm all in favour of recruiting new people to various posts and getting young people involved, but I think it's a bit strange to pounce on some kid who's never been seen before and might never be seen again. Is it healthy, either for him or the church, for somebody with little (if any) understanding of the Christian faith and no understanding at all of the structure of the church to immediately be elevated to a position of church government? I'm sure the church concerned feel they are being very "right on" by electing a 14 year old they've never met before, but is it good for him? As someone who had wandered into church to "see what it was all about" it must be really bewildering for him.

I'm not usually one for quoting scripture on the boards, but I keep thinking about the passage in 1 Corinthians where Paul speaks about starting on milk before moving on to solid food. This kid hasn't had a chance to go through the "milk" stage and has been forced straight into a bloody great banquet he's probably not ready for!

[ 11. April 2014, 08:08: Message edited by: Spike ]

Posted by Thyme (# 12360) on :

I thought similarly to Spike, Exclamation Mark and Gill H.

But my experience of the good old CofE is that it is a majorly dysfunctional institution at every level, so nothing new here. [Roll Eyes]

But it is a particularly disturbing example and I do wonder what on earth the vicar thought s/he was about.

Also, I think the General Synod reps are elected from the Deanery Synods, and it was the General Synod House of Laity that wrecked the proposal for women to be bishops recently.

Maybe a Synod full of 14 year olds who have only just started going to church would do a better job. [Two face]

[ 11. April 2014, 15:22: Message edited by: Thyme ]

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Deanery Synod rep at our shack used to be the 'buggin's turn' number that you found yourself landed with if you weren't at the APM to refuse to serve.

After much thought (and a fair drop of gin) a friend and I decided that if we approached the whole matter of the Deanery Synod differently then we'd be happy to turn up for the parish.

Sure, we keep the parish informed about what is going on; but the first thing we did was canvas the regulars at all services about their concerns and then brought them up at DS. For example, we have a number of CofE secondary schools which are heavily over-subscribed so children from outlying parishes rarely get a look-in, never mind a place. Meanwhile, several clergy of parishes closer to the schools are more than happy to give an attendance reference to anyone who asks, regardless of any churchgoing or even affiliation. Well, we brought that up - with examples - and all hell broke loose.

Other items came up which we've raised and we regularly get asked to bring things up that the people in our pews care about.

I know the old regulars on DS are feeling a bit shell-shocked, but if the CofE honestly wants these bodies to reflect the parishes then that is what they should get - so we're trying.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

In some churches, 14 year olds are officially able to preach (Methodist??). Although not at the first attendance. The church you describe is crazy, but maybe they are also on to something. Jesus used to pick some pretty unlikely people too. I wonder if this young chap will one day become a priest, due to the church's crazy faith in him?

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:

1. Deanery Synod rep at our shack used to be the 'buggin's turn' number that you found yourself landed with if you weren't at the APM to refuse to serve.

2. Sure, we keep the parish informed about what is going on; but the first thing we did was canvas the regulars at all services about their concerns and then brought them up at DS. I know the old regulars on DS are feeling a bit shell-shocked, but if the CofE honestly wants these bodies to reflect the parishes then that is what they should get - so we're trying.

1. In most churches (let alone other organisations) permission to nominate is sought before the event.

2. I have some involvement at regional and national level in a mainstream denomination and that's exactly my approach too. It needs a bit of shaking up if it is to change - but involving 14 year olds in that is doomed to disaster IMHO. In any event, most decisions will exclude the 14 year old - not being of the age of majority he/she cannot enter into any contract. Anything financial, including faculties etc. are out.

It just seems a bit of tokenism - if, of course, we have the full story.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Thyme:
I thought similarly to Spike, Exclamation Mark and Gill H.

But my experience of the good old CofE is that it is a majorly dysfunctional institution at every level, so nothing new here.

But it is a particularly disturbing example and I do wonder what on earth the vicar thought s/he was about.

Also, I think the General Synod reps are elected from the Deanery Synods, and it was the General Synod House of Laity that wrecked the proposal for women to be bishops recently.

Maybe a Synod full of 14 year olds who have only just started going to church would do a better job.

Agreed. A bad decision is worse coming from those who presume to know better as opposed to those (like 14 year olds who have only gone to church once) who haven't had the opportunity to know better.

Trouble is, thinking about this again and doing some research on the CofE website, the OP doesn't ring true. Members of Deanery Synods must be communicant members, over 16 and presumably on the electoral roll. None of this can be the case for a 14 year old going to a church for the first time. See section 24, 6 part c) of http://www.churchofengland.org/about-us/structure/churchlawlegis/church-representation-rules/part-iii.aspx

Either the church has blundered or, to be charitable, Forest is unclear. Can we have a view please?

[ 12. April 2014, 05:29: Message edited by: ExclamationMark ]

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
In some churches, 14 year olds are officially able to preach (Methodist??). Although not at the first attendance. The church you describe is crazy, but maybe they are also on to something. Jesus used to pick some pretty unlikely people too. I wonder if this young chap will one day become a priest, due to the church's crazy faith in him?

Few churches would allow a 14 year old to preach unless they were totally convinced about their understanding of the faith they were talking about. It's possible in Methodism and for Baptists but I haven't heard of it for many many years.

Jesus picked some pretty unlikely people, true. But he didn't pick any 14 year olds although it was possible for him to do so.

I quiet agree that it's good to pick the "unlikely" people - I guess if you looked at most Deanery Synods they'd be white, elderly, middle class. Try choosing a few labourers, unemployed, instead of the usual suspects - that would cut a swathe through the rubbish that most such meetings generate. For that to function properly the timing, location, and format of most meetings would have to change as well.

Baptists have begun to recognise this too - for the first time the annual conference has been cut back and local associations meet at all sorts of times in all sorts of locations across the regions.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
The church you describe is crazy, but maybe they are also on to something.

Sure is -- if it's true, it's abrogating responsibility on a massive scale

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

I'm not so fussed about the age--I served in adult roles at about that age--but the sudden grabbing of a complete newcomer is maybe a problem. It would depend on the responsibilities associated with the role. If they require spiritual maturity, there's a problem, as the newcomer is basically unknown. If they don't (as in choir membership and some other roles), then it could very well be a great way to bring the willing newcomer into a strong relationship with the church.

Posted by Thyme (# 12360) on :

Explaining it as a sort of spiritual organisational breaking of the mould - "choosing unlikely people" reminds me of the vicar who justified a completely inappropriate and irregular financial proposal as "being fools for Christ".

It is giving me that uncomfortable feeling I used to get in church matters where I felt I was being asked to suspend all rational thought and believe in six impossible things before breakfast.

I feel bad about this as this is All Saints and if The Weeder is feeling rosy about this new church I don't want knock it. We don't know all the facts. But I am glad others had the same reservations I did and posted them as I feel slightly less guilty about being so cynical and suspicious.

Posted by Thyme (# 12360) on :

It has just occurred to me that this 14 year old, being a minor, Deanery Synod involves a lot of meetings, usually in the evening. I wonder if anyone has considered the child protection issues.

There is paperwork and electronic communications involved, does the child have access?

I also wonder if the parents should have been involved beforehand.

In fact, even by CofE standards it all seems very unlikely and I am hoping that the OP is just confused.

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

I don't think it's legal anyway. The rules may differ between dioceses, but in most places the minimum requirement for someone to stand for Deanery Synod is to be over 16, to be on the Electoral Roll of the parish and to be a communicant member of the church.

Posted by Thyme (# 12360) on :

Spike: I just followed up Exclamation Mark's link and your post describes the national requirements. They are legislative requirements not guidelines. There is some scope for Bishops appointments but a minimum age of 16 seems to be non-negotiable. Parishes can't make up their own rules.

Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Thyme:
...I feel bad about this as this is All Saints and if The Weeder is feeling rosy about this new church I don't want knock it. We don't know all the facts...

Yes, this is All Saints so I'd prefer if we became a bit more "All-Saintly" - if you wish to debate the issues raised then perhaps someone could start a thread in Purgatory with a link to this thread but let's have no more of it here.

Thanks.

WW - AS Host

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
In some churches, 14 year olds are officially able to preach (Methodist??). Although not at the first attendance. The church you describe is crazy, but maybe they are also on to something. Jesus used to pick some pretty unlikely people too. I wonder if this young chap will one day become a priest, due to the church's crazy faith in him?
Few churches would allow a 14 year old to preach unless they were totally convinced about their understanding of the faith they were talking about. It's possible in Methodism and for Baptists but I haven't heard of it for many many years.

You might come across examples of the Sunday School or youth group 'leading worship', but they'd be assisted in their preparation by the SS/youth leaders.

I once heard of a 16 year old Methodist girl preaching a sermon just a few years ago - but her mother was a minister. It's unlikely that someone this young or younger would be given this opportunity without already being deeply embedded in church life. Methodists are used to lay preachers, but they're expected to be church members, and to be up on how things are done.

Conversely, I was once told on the Ship that the CofE likes to bring in 'unchurchy' people as ordinands, and as we know, there's a very flexible sense of membership in the CofE. So perhaps the idea of making use of a completely unknown 14 year old makes more sense in that context?

Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :

SvitlanaV2, please see my post above yours - if you want to discuss these matters please take it to Purgatory and discuss it there.

Thank you.

WW
All Saints Host

[ 12. April 2014, 13:52: Message edited by: Welease Woderwick ]

Posted by The Weeder (# 11321) on :

To give you the background. I am a Licensed Lay Minister and although I am very new to the Church, I am known, as I live in the Parish. The Vicer also knows me from a project we worked on back in the day.

The lad is new, but eager. I will be looking after him- taking him to meetings, helping him to understand what is going on.

I see it all as very positive.

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :

As requested by hosts, I've raised my (significant) concerns in Purgatory in light of The Weeder's last reply. Link to posts

http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=018802

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Weeder:
To give you the background. I am a Licensed Lay Minister and although I am very new to the Church, I am known, as I live in the Parish. The Vicer also knows me from a project we worked on back in the day.

The lad is new, but eager. I will be looking after him- taking him to meetings, helping him to understand what is going on.

I see it all as very positive.

As per this post, anyone who is 14 can't serve on Deanery Synod as they are too young. A first timer is unlikely to fulfil the communion / electoral role requirement either.

And if you're not on the electoral roll for that church, you can't serve on Synod either.

If the young person is as keen as you say, his first experience of church is going to involve being told that whoever organised the election made a massive mistake - not positive at all. I'd get in touch with your vicar to clarify.

Tubbs

[ 14. April 2014, 10:32: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

Posted by The Weeder (# 11321) on :

I am sorry to have caused so much concern.

In fact, I was mistaken. The young man is 16.

I am, as is required of anyone in a leadership role, 'police checked'. As I have moved Church, this will need to be re-newed.

Although new to church, he is known to the vicar, as a neighbour and friend of his son.

I think I will take a bit of shore leave until things calm down.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Regardless of being known to the vicar, unless he meets all the criteria to be on the Electoral Roll AND is on the roll he cannot be a member of a Deanery Synod - which membership also makes him a co-opted member of the PCC.

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Regardless of being known to the vicar, unless he meets all the criteria to be on the Electoral Roll AND is on the roll he cannot be a member of a Deanery Synod - which membership also makes him a co-opted member of the PCC.

Blunter than I would have put it, but true. It's worth checking you are also eligible for election. If you've only been going for a few months, you might not have been added to the roll yet either.

Forgive us for what may seem like an over-reaction, but your OP does sound a bit like the opening sentence of a Safeguarding training scenario ... A young person joins the church, they're very keen and want to get involved. An older attendee offers to show them the ropes, they're also new to the church but known to the leadership by reputation and a CRB check is in the works .... It's good that the Ship's collective antenna is attuned to these things, but I appreciate it's not so good when you're on the receiving end. Enjoy your shore leave and hope to see you soon.

Tubbs

Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :

I think that this thread has run its course and so I'm closing it.

Welease Woderwick
All Saints Host.

UBB.classic^TM 6.5.0