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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Moral dilemma
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Smudgie
Ship's Barnacle
# 2716
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Posted
Seeking your cumulative wisdom and reactions to an interesting situation.
Today my boy (nearly seventeen) has undergone a "traumatic experience" and now that I have stopped laughing, I am trying to work out the best way forward for him.
In response to an elderly lady's plea for help, I suggested that he volunteer his services as an odd job man, a suggestion he was keen to seize upon. She wanted someone reliable to do bits of gardening, painting, moving things, mending things, and generally being a strong pair of hands to help out as she herself is quite elderly and her husband has, I would guess, had a major stroke, and their house and garden is becoming too much for them to manage alone. He, on the other hand, enjoys that kind of work and is in need of some casual income.
He came home laden with gifts - a tennis racket and badminton rackets, an Easter egg and a very generous rate of pay, together with a promise of a steady supply of work at a higher rate than he actually gets during his part time job as a school's ICT technician!
Here's the rub, though - the old lady loves the company and likes to chat as he works... and, like many of her generation, is incredibly ignorantly racist, almost to the point where you could imagine she was doing it deliberately to shock (except that she wasn't). Think Alf Garnett in granny form.
He's torn. I'm torn. He's torn because the pay is good and he really does need the money but he feels morally unable to condone or appear complicit with what she is saying and yet too polite to tackle it - also realising that he probably won't change her whatever he says. I'm torn because I don't want him to have to endure that (or, as seems likely, a progression to expressions of homophobia too which affects him directly) but then feel that he will at some point need to develop coping strategies for just such a scenario as we can't always choose who we work with/for. Maybe his gentle example could influence this woman for the good, who knows.
So, you're seventeen, in need of a good income, and find yourself working for a talkative and self-obsessed old dear whose pronouncements are diametrically opposite to what you believe. What do you do/say? How can your mother best advise you? Is there a way to keep on working but without the moral trauma?
(Incidentally, he was also perturbed because she wanted to know his star sign and insisted on reading his palm. To this I have told him to say politely but firmly that he is sorry but, being a committed Christian, this is at odds with his faith and that he'd rather just get on with his work.)
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Miss you, Erin.
Posts: 14382 | From: Under the duvet | Registered: Apr 2002
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Smudgie
Ship's Barnacle
# 2716
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Posted
I should add that one approach I have thought of is to help him arm himself with appropriate responses. Any suggestions as to what those might be?
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Miss you, Erin.
Posts: 14382 | From: Under the duvet | Registered: Apr 2002
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
He can politely engage her. One way is to ask her why she believes what she professes to believe.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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chive
Ship's nude
# 208
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Posted
When I worked in a dementia unit this subject came up fairly regularly. I always replied something along the lines of, 'Isn't it interesting the way the world has changed? I love meeting people from so many places.' Always said in a polite, friendly fashion but I found people wouldn't argue and would usually change the subject. I don't know if that would work here though.
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'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost
Posts: 3542 | From: the cupboard under the stairs | Registered: May 2001
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
I think that it will be good for him to learn how much our cultural influences affect us unless we make the effort to continue to broaden our education throughout our lives, and to engage with people from all backgrounds.
He should know that this lady will have been brought up in a world where it was normal to look down on others for all kinds of reasons.
The challenge for him is to find ways to gently challenge what she says without rudeness. This may happen over time, as he gets to know her. I used regularly to speak to someone whose racist remarks became prefaced with ' I know you love everyone but....' My challenge to the remark was then expected as soon as the sentence was completed. It was good humoured, and the racism was never condoned but bounced back with ideas which may help it to dissipate.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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moonlitdoor
Shipmate
# 11707
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Posted
If he comes to find the situation distressing or detrimental to his own wellbeing, then fair enough to walk away from it.
But I think the idea that he is morally complicit by not arguing is a load of nonsense. This sounds a bit harsh but the world is full of bad things that he's not doing anything about, same as the rest of us. Some of them are worse than the ramblings of an old lady. But many of them we can't do anything about. Not looking at them doesn't make them go away.
If he sees her treating someone unkindly, he can intervene. Otherwise let him worry about his own problems.
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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai
Posts: 2210 | From: london | Registered: Aug 2006
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Sometimes I've found that a mildly disagreeing statement, said with a tremendous degree of bright innocence, works. As in "All these foreigners are coming here and ruining our country" to which you reply as if you'd not understood, "Oh yes, I love meeting so many different people" or "I know this really great Bosnian restaurant" or "I know just what you mean, my best friend is a Jew, and my cousin's from Africa." Usually the non sequitur will make them blink a bit, then change the subject. The more stubborn ones will keep up such exchanges for two or three go-rounds, then give it up as a bad job.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
Ha ha ha, I know someone to use that on! Thanks, Lamb! (OK, now I know I should NOT be hoping this person will make a racist comment soon just so I can try this out. No, no, no, I am going to make myself hope that no racist comment is made for a VERY LONG TIME, maybe so long that I'll forget Lamb's wonderful idea. I am NOT hoping to try this out soon and see the reaction. No, no, no. At least, I'm TRYING not to hope that.)
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
Goodness me, is he 17 already? A set of brief scripts is an excellent idea, and also a bit of an exit plan if he really can't deal with it on a particular day. Teaching him to ignore as much as he can is probably also a good idea.
I feel for him, because even at 50 I still have to deal with this kind of thing among my clients. My own rationalisation is that I am there to do a particular job, and getting into an argument about something totally unrelated will derail the focus I need to do the job.
The worst time was arriving to find only the mum in evidence. I asked where dad was, and she answered, "Oh, he's recording that program on praying the gay away." There was absolutely no point in reacting to this, as it would have meant the end of my work with them. Clearly they hadn't spotted me for a lesbian. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
While it would have been lovely to do a big show and tell, it would have been totally unprofessional, and would have meant that the kids in the house would have missed out on what support I could give them (and the kids were light years ahead of their parents).
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
Arrgh. I have this issue with clients all the time. The irony is that my clients, without exception, themselves belong to assorted 'categories' subjected to similar prejudice -- they are, in the vernacular they themselves suffer, "crips," "retards," and "loonies," etc. "Isn't it a good thing nobody ever says nasty things about people in your situation," I sometimes say.
"But they do!" is the response I usually get.
"Yes, and how does that make you feel?"
That generally shuts them up for a bit.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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lily pad
Shipmate
# 11456
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Posted
Another possible strategy is to freely use you as an excuse. When I had similar issues as a teen, my parents were quick to point out that I could just say that they would never approve of me discussing such matters and most elderly folks would consider the subject closed. He could make it a habit to reply to things he knows are sketchy by declaring that he'll discuss that with his mom when he gets home.
I see no real moral dilemma. He is going to run into people who believe differently than you do and he might as well figure out responses that allow him to maintain his dignity without the other person being called out by a 17 year old.
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Sloppiness is not caring. Fussiness is caring about the wrong things. With thanks to Adeodatus!
Posts: 2468 | From: Truly Canadian | Registered: May 2006
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
He's going to have to find his own style in dealing with this. There is a middle path of dissenting without trying to argue the point; "I guess we'll have to disagree on that..." or "I have friends in that minority who aren't like that..." It's unlikely to succeed if there's a political party using dog whistle tactics like "the immigrants are stealing our jobs" and such..
Having raised the dissent, you can try to move on to other subjects. She may realize she needs to avoid the topics if she wants conversation. It seems like a useful skill to learn.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Don't let him run away from it. He is doing work that they appreciate, which he also enjoys (a not-very-common thing these days) and he has to learn to get along with his neighbours. As posted upthread, there are ways to deal with the more difficult comments without affecting his integrity or theirs'.
And he will need the skills he learns. However much the young see things in a new light, the rest of us, damaged as we are, are still there, all around him - and he will meet "young" people who are just as prejudiced and much nastier about it. Life goes on.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
Excellent advice so far, some great tips which I will try to take on board.
He doesn't, of course, have to respond at all and often silence is a good choice. He could try "I" statements such as commenting on how he enjoys the multicultural aspects of his college life. He can even cite me if he wants and how, in 17 years over here, I have never faced any overt racism.
Or he could divert the conversation on to other topics - do the couple have kids and grandkids, nieces, nephews, etc.? Talk about them and their lives and jobs and schools, etc. He can talk about his hobbies, his camera, the fun he has with it. Good grief, he's British - he can always talk about the weather!
He doesn't need to rise to the bait - if he establishes a pattern of not rising she may [eventually] realise that it is not a useful subject.
In extremis he can always recite his times tables in his head!
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
...and I've just thought of that bit in Ecclesiastes which can be interpreted as:
quote:
To everything there is a season - a time to speak out and a time to keep silence
Perhaps one of the things he is learning here is that there are some very difficult people in this world.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
From your description he sounds like a very sensible young man, and wise beyond his years if he can accept that the old lady is behaving according to the mores of her generation.
I'm not really in a position to offer advice, and certainly not any better than others have done: the "gentle touch" strikes me as the best, possibly trying to bite his tongue a bit, at least until he's got to know his employer a bit better. Once he's more at ease with her (if not with her views), responses like "I have friends who are gay/Jewish/Muslim/Polish/Scottish*", said with a lightness of touch may be the best approach.
* delete as appropriate.
I added "Scottish" because the lady sounds rather as I imagine D's late grandmother, who didn't approve of Scots at all, and obligingly died just before we got engaged, so didn't get the chance to disapprove of me. ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
Silence, and a shifting of the topic to something of interest to her worked best for me when my Mother went on about things with which I disagreed.
At least for a while. I just repeated the actions in my first paragraph.
But she was always learning, and even a few days before her death she demonstrated an attitude change on an opinion which she had firmly held all of her life, to the despair of her adult children.
But she was still voting Tory a week before her death. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif) That's one thing that never changed.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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QJ
Shipmate
# 14873
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Posted
when your son see's himself as another version of the old lady and that god is daily overlooking your sons sins and failures, he will understand god more and what grace means. i was out in the yard mowing my lawn and in my heart complaining about my awful neighbor. god opened my heart to see how many bad things i was also doing as a neighbor and i felt the spirit of god like the big hand in monty python come down from heaven and bonk me on my head and i had to slump down laughing in my soul and say "ok god, i get it."
god puts up with so much from ALL of us.
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QJ
Posts: 111 | From: PA | Registered: Jun 2009
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
Yes to the shifting topic idea. Not saying it always works, some people have a pet topic and insist on it. But a lot of people, especially if they get somewhat isolated as they age, just want conversation.
Cleaning garage and yard? Think oral history - in the garden "tell me about your first garden"; "is (name a plant) hard to grow?" In the storage shelves "a tennis racquet, did you play tennis, tell me about it I've never played." Or even world events - do you think they'll ever find that missing plane?" "What's your favorite charity?"
I know the usual advice is questions that cannot be answered in a single word, but that's to get reluctant conversation going. With a chatterer you usually just need to hand them a topic and they are off running. If they don't grab it and run, or they head a distressing direction with it, hand them another - "you have cardinals in your yard!"
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Piglet's biting your tongue advice seems best to me. OK, he doesn't agree with what is being said, or approve of it either, but he's better keeping his silence and letting it go over the top.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Mrs Shrew
Ship's Mother
# 8635
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Posted
Shifting topics a good idea, but he may need to be aware that for people of a certain generation, asking questions about them is considered nosy to the point of incredibly rude. Even such innocuous things as "how many children do you have" or "want did you do in the war?"
My grandmother cut off all contact with a helpful friendly neighbour who mowed her lawn and put our her bins for her because he kept asking things like "how are your granddaughters" and "have you heard from your son overseas lately" and (when it being so much friendlier during the war was mentioned "what did you do in the war".
We could all see he was trying to make her feel valued and to give her things to talk about which were not daily mail headlines but could not convince her.
This lady's mileage may vary of course.
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"The goal of life is not to make other people in your own image, it is to understand that they, too, are in God's image" (Orfeo)
Was "mummyfrances".
Posts: 703 | From: York, England | Registered: Oct 2004
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
If he gets to know the lady well enough, he could try some mild teasing, " Who does the Daily Mail tell you to hate today ... ?" Works on my mum who's the same generation.
It's not ideal, but your son is going to come across these attitudes wherever he works - the elderly just tend to be blunter about it! Learning to navigate his way through them is all good.
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
TANGENT ALERT
You know, as one who is sneaking, however reluctantly, up on Senior Citizenhood myself, I have to say the sheer volume of characterizations of elders in this thread as ignorant, cranky, racist, incapable of change, etc. etc. is beginning to get to me. Can we ease up a bit?
A fair few elder-folk number among my personal acquaintance. Not a single one espouses the kinds of views being attributed to their age-peers on this thread. In fact, without exception, they're people who, when younger, were on the front lines during the Civil Rights movement, feminism's First Wave, people who favor OoW, marriage equality, immigration reform, etc. etc. Very progressive and liberal-minded they are. Two have served multiple jail sentences for protesting at a weapons manufacturer in my state (the elder of these people is in his 80s). That, frankly, is one of the reasons they're my friends.
Racism, sexism, classism et al. are not attributes of advanced age. They're attributes of racists, sexists, etc. Frankly, it seems to me pretty disrespectful to cut "poor old dears" slack by not challenging misinformed views and instead assuming the poor things can't change or learn any more simply because there's now snow on the roof.
END TANGENT
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
It's true, and yet it reminds me a bit of teaching--you might have sixty decent students, and it's the one bad apple that sticks in the mind. And the fact that the person under discussion is spouting racist conversation at a kid who never brought up the subject suggests that she fits that category a bit better than that of the 59 others. We'll hope not, but still...
Or do you think he can convert her, or should even try? Because I would think that very unlikely, even if she is a thoroughly decent person in every other respect.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
TANGENT ALERT
You know, as one who is sneaking, however reluctantly, up on Senior Citizenhood myself, I have to say the sheer volume of characterizations of elders in this thread as ignorant, cranky, racist, incapable of change, etc. etc. is beginning to get to me. Can we ease up a bit?
A fair few elder-folk number among my personal acquaintance. Not a single one espouses the kinds of views being attributed to their age-peers on this thread. In fact, without exception, they're people who, when younger, were on the front lines during the Civil Rights movement, feminism's First Wave, people who favor OoW, marriage equality, immigration reform, etc. etc. Very progressive and liberal-minded they are. Two have served multiple jail sentences for protesting at a weapons manufacturer in my state (the elder of these people is in his 80s). That, frankly, is one of the reasons they're my friends.
Racism, sexism, classism et al. are not attributes of advanced age. They're attributes of racists, sexists, etc. Frankly, it seems to me pretty disrespectful to cut "poor old dears" slack by not challenging misinformed views and instead assuming the poor things can't change or learn any more simply because there's now snow on the roof.
END TANGENT
In general I find that people when they get older are the same as when they were young – only more so.
So if they were grumpy they become grumpier, if they kind they don’t become grumpy, if they were tolerant they don’t suddenly become all sorts of …ists: sexist, racist etc
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Porridge: we were asked to comment on the specific problem, not to grumble that the lady wasn't like other people somewhere else. Exception to prove the rule, if you like, but still there, just like the cat on your chest at 2 AM.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
It's true, and yet it reminds me a bit of teaching--you might have sixty decent students, and it's the one bad apple that sticks in the mind. And the fact that the person under discussion is spouting racist conversation at a kid who never brought up the subject suggests that she fits that category a bit better than that of the 59 others. We'll hope not, but still...
All I’m saying is that if she is in fact a racist, let’s not chalk it up to her age. Let’s chalk it up to her racism.
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Or do you think he can convert her, or should even try? Because I would think that very unlikely, even if she is a thoroughly decent person in every other respect.
I have no idea if this is a person capable of changing her mind, and in this case, there’s risk involved to the young man – he has a job to lose on one hand, and a moral principle to defend on the other. It’s a very tough call, but it’s also the kind of call we’re often required to make. I hope he can tread gently, and that the outcome is for the best.
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
In general I find that people when they get older are the same as when they were young – only more so.
So if they were grumpy they become grumpier, if they kind they don’t become grumpy, if they were tolerant they don’t suddenly become all sorts of …ists: sexist, racist etc
And in general, I find that people who spout off misguided / prejudiced views frequently go unchallenged. They remain the-same-only-more-so as they age precisely because the rest of us tiptoe so politely around the nastiness, avoiding any hint of contradiction because we’ve got something at stake in the relationship, or we’ve decided they’re past all hope of changing or learning. As well they might be; but why be so eager to deny them the opportunity to try?
I had a serious discussion with one friend, who had decided on a hunger strike (she was 73 at the time) during her last jail term, because she was making her family crazy with worry over her health. I didn’t disagree with her views or plans (though I personally thought them unwise), but neither did I let her off considering her (very quiet, polite, non-confrontational) children’s fears, and mine, for her welfare. She ultimately decided not to pursue the fast, though she continued to refuse bail and served out her sentence as originally planned. In short, challenged, she was able to reconsider and relieve her children’s & friend's anxiety to some extent.
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Porridge: we were asked to comment on the specific problem, not to grumble that the lady wasn't like other people somewhere else. Exception to prove the rule, if you like, but still there, just like the cat on your chest at 2 AM.
I’m not complaining that this lady is or isn’t like anybody else. I’m complaining because so many us seem willing to assume we know what she’s like without so much as granting her an opportunity to demonstrate otherwise. Suppose someone – not necessarily this 17-y.o. who does, after all, have a paying job on the line – were to say to her, so sympathetically, “Gosh, it must be tough living with all that anxiety and discomfort over (insert group she’s dissed here). Did something happen? Want to talk about it?” Opening a dialog with her, letting her air her views, and gently pointing out where these might not consort with reality, might produce a change. Or not; but avoiding the topic certainly changes nothing.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I don't think anybody was saying that age excuses racism; but it does make it that much harder for a seventeen-year-old to correct (engage, contradict, whatever) the racist. If it were a peer of his own age, I suspect he'd have no hesitation. But the respect and power imbalance here is going to make that difficult, maybe impossible.
Yes, somebody should try. But I don't think it should be him.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I don't think anybody was saying that age excuses racism;
I don't think so either; what I'm referring to is the excusing of ourselves from pointing out racism simply because the racist in question is elderly and may have held those views for a long time. It's the 'why bother; not worth fussing over; she's too old to change' excuse we offer ourselves as a way of our avoiding possible conflict -- that's what gets up my nose.
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
but it does make it that much harder for a seventeen-year-old to correct (engage, contradict, whatever) the racist. If it were a peer of his own age, I suspect he'd have no hesitation. But the respect and power imbalance here is going to make that difficult, maybe impossible.
Absolutely. A kid in his teens versus someone older (if not wiser), who is also his pro tem employer -- not the time, place, or person for him to be making an issue of the racist views -- until or unless he decides the game is worth the candle, and he's prepared to cope with whatever the fallout might be.
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Yes, somebody should try. But I don't think it should be him.
Agreed.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
We had a racist, very elderly couple in our church; and it was surprisingly difficult to confront the racism in a direct way. No doubt part of the difficulty was that we ourselves were in a mixed marriage, Mr. Lamb and I; but some of it was age-related. What I mean is, they automatically had seniority in any conversation due to age, and they didn't hesitate to use that power--in discussions about vacuuming, not just discussions about racism. Plus they clearly grew up in a time and place where such remarks were acceptable, and saw no reason to change now.
We did what we could, and eventually I had the very weird experience of overhearing the husband lecturing one of our young men on how "those damn foreigners are ruining our country"--quite oblivious to the fact that he was addressing a Vietnamese refugee. They also stood godparents to the guy's children.
I figured that we'd never be able to retrain the mouth, but if we'd gotten the heart, we were doing pretty well.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
... they clearly grew up in a time and place where such remarks were acceptable ...
That seems to me to be the essence of the problem with Racist-employer-lady. Her opinions may have gone unremarked when she was younger, so it may not even occur to her that they were A Bit Off, and now that she's older she's used to people giving her a bit of leeway because she's older.
To Smudgie's son I'd invoke the old prayer - I'm paraphrasing as I can't remember the exact words, but this is the gist:
Lord, give me the courage to change what I can, the patience to tolerate what I can't, and the wisdom to tell the difference.
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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The Intrepid Mrs S
Shipmate
# 17002
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Posted
Wrt the comments upthread about not labelling people as racist simply because they are old - is it not true that with increasing age the frontal lobes of the brain can (notice I say 'can') begin to atrophy, and with them our control mechanisms? Hence as people grow old, they may become less guarded in their audible comments, not only about race, but in all sorts of ways - 'hasn't that man got an enormous nose?' and so on.
The Dowager Mrs. S, for instance, may never have been the soul of tact, but it is only in her later years that she has been known to say things like 'that trifle looks as if someone's thrown up in it', and so on. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
My friend's MiL has her own phrase - 'I'm 92 and I can say what I like'. So, if she has always harboured racist beliefs, it means that now she feels entirely free to express them simply because she is old. Is this an instance for the Smudgelet where it really is 'better to be kind than right'?
Mrs. S, and yes, that was my trifle ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Don't get your knickers in a twist over your advancing age. It achieves nothing and makes you walk funny.
Prayer should be our first recourse, not our last resort
'Lord, please give us patience. NOW!'
Posts: 1464 | From: Neither here nor there | Registered: Mar 2012
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
How fantastic that the 17 year old in question perceives this is a dilemma. I think it requires a combination of principles (i.e. to find racism repugnant and intolerable) but also sensitivity and respect for an elder in order for the dilemma to occur.
I cannot imagine a better testament to character and upbringing.
Although it would be interesting to know whether what holds him back is in fact respect for elders or the filthy lucre hanging in the balance.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Earwig
Pincered Beastie
# 12057
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
How fantastic that the 17 year old in question perceives this is a dilemma. I think it requires a combination of principles (i.e. to find racism repugnant and intolerable) but also sensitivity and respect for an elder in order for the dilemma to occur.
I cannot imagine a better testament to character and upbringing.
Indeed. When he gets to know her a bit better, could he tell her that he finds some of what she says a bit difficult? That might pave the way for any further discussions about sexuality, too.
Posts: 3120 | From: Yorkshire | Registered: Nov 2006
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sophs
Sardonic Angel
# 2296
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Posted
I generally ignore and change the subject unless my grandmother is being totally wrong on a factual level (itching my nose will cause cancer was that last one), or being a total raging hypocrite. She hates immigrants and people who don't work, which isn't that unusual until you realise she came from Slovenia in 1946 and has never worked in her life.
Also, 17 ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Posts: 5407 | From: searching saharas of sorrow | Registered: Feb 2002
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Echoing mdijon and Earwig - Smudgie, that's a heck of a man you've raised. You must be very proud of him.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Smudgie
Ship's Barnacle
# 2716
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Posted
Thank you for all your comments.. and especially the compliments on my young man of whom I am indeed incredibly proud - though don't tell him I said that! ![[Biased]](wink.gif) He's not a bad lad, all things considered!
He has been really encouraged by your comments and in discussion today he's decided to go back, remembering that she's clearly quite lonely (hence the incessant talking) and frustrated at her own decreasing ability to keep on top of things. He can see that there may be some value in learning to deal with conversations which make him feel uncomfortable. He's armed with your brilliant suggestions for changing the subject. He doesn't tend to be mercenary, but we've also decided that it might help him to have something to focus on if it does become wearing so he's picturing the new bike he's saving towards (he's gone and outgrown his old one - what a nuisance these growing teenagers are!) and we'll see how it goes.
Porridge, I understand your comments. I by no means think that all older people are racists or that age is any excuse for the sort of opinions she is expressing. Nor do I think that it should be tolerated or left unchallenged on account of her age. However, I do think that there can be a subtle difference in the racism of different generations, born of the expectations of the era in which they spent their formative years, and that this specific example is influenced by that cultural difference in a way that my 17 year old has rarely experienced before... and as others have said, I do not think it is my son's place to be the one to challenge her, at least until he knows her better and has built a relationship with her. The issue of her age is more a case, as has been said, of the balance of power and my son's desire not to be disrespectful. But it's a good opportunity for him to learn that the world and its issues are not quite as black and white as his teenage head would like to catagorise them.
And yes, where have the years gone! My little Smudgelet has his first driving lesson in three weeks' time (heaven help us!)
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Miss you, Erin.
Posts: 14382 | From: Under the duvet | Registered: Apr 2002
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Almost the first time I saw my Dad (born early 1920's) angry with other adults was when a few of his subordinates (b. 1940's) were talking about the inhabitants of an island in the Mediterranean using terms Alf Garnett wouldn't have used.
(nb, we were living on said island and my Dad and subordinates were members of the armed forces. Then again he spent about a dozen years overseas, mostly in Africa and the Middle East.)
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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