Thread: Moral dilemma Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Smudgie (# 2716) on :
 
Seeking your cumulative wisdom and reactions to an interesting situation.

Today my boy (nearly seventeen) has undergone a "traumatic experience" and now that I have stopped laughing, I am trying to work out the best way forward for him.

In response to an elderly lady's plea for help, I suggested that he volunteer his services as an odd job man, a suggestion he was keen to seize upon. She wanted someone reliable to do bits of gardening, painting, moving things, mending things, and generally being a strong pair of hands to help out as she herself is quite elderly and her husband has, I would guess, had a major stroke, and their house and garden is becoming too much for them to manage alone. He, on the other hand, enjoys that kind of work and is in need of some casual income.

He came home laden with gifts - a tennis racket and badminton rackets, an Easter egg and a very generous rate of pay, together with a promise of a steady supply of work at a higher rate than he actually gets during his part time job as a school's ICT technician!

Here's the rub, though - the old lady loves the company and likes to chat as he works... and, like many of her generation, is incredibly ignorantly racist, almost to the point where you could imagine she was doing it deliberately to shock (except that she wasn't). Think Alf Garnett in granny form.

He's torn. I'm torn. He's torn because the pay is good and he really does need the money but he feels morally unable to condone or appear complicit with what she is saying and yet too polite to tackle it - also realising that he probably won't change her whatever he says. I'm torn because I don't want him to have to endure that (or, as seems likely, a progression to expressions of homophobia too which affects him directly) but then feel that he will at some point need to develop coping strategies for just such a scenario as we can't always choose who we work with/for. Maybe his gentle example could influence this woman for the good, who knows.

So, you're seventeen, in need of a good income, and find yourself working for a talkative and self-obsessed old dear whose pronouncements are diametrically opposite to what you believe. What do you do/say? How can your mother best advise you? Is there a way to keep on working but without the moral trauma?

(Incidentally, he was also perturbed because she wanted to know his star sign and insisted on reading his palm. To this I have told him to say politely but firmly that he is sorry but, being a committed Christian, this is at odds with his faith and that he'd rather just get on with his work.)
 

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Posted by Smudgie (# 2716) on :
 
I should add that one approach I have thought of is to help him arm himself with appropriate responses. Any suggestions as to what those might be?
 

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Posted by Caissa (# 16710) on :
 
He can politely engage her. One way is to ask her why she believes what she professes to believe.
 

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Posted by chive (# 208) on :
 
When I worked in a dementia unit this subject came up fairly regularly. I always replied something along the lines of, 'Isn't it interesting the way the world has changed? I love meeting people from so many places.' Always said in a polite, friendly fashion but I found people wouldn't argue and would usually change the subject. I don't know if that would work here though.
 

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Posted by Raptor Eye (# 16649) on :
 
I think that it will be good for him to learn how much our cultural influences affect us unless we make the effort to continue to broaden our education throughout our lives, and to engage with people from all backgrounds.

He should know that this lady will have been brought up in a world where it was normal to look down on others for all kinds of reasons.

The challenge for him is to find ways to gently challenge what she says without rudeness. This may happen over time, as he gets to know her. I used regularly to speak to someone whose racist remarks became prefaced with ' I know you love everyone but....' My challenge to the remark was then expected as soon as the sentence was completed. It was good humoured, and the racism was never condoned but bounced back with ideas which may help it to dissipate.
 

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Posted by moonlitdoor (# 11707) on :
 
If he comes to find the situation distressing or detrimental to his own wellbeing, then fair enough to walk away from it.

But I think the idea that he is morally complicit by not arguing is a load of nonsense. This sounds a bit harsh but the world is full of bad things that he's not doing anything about, same as the rest of us. Some of them are worse than the ramblings of an old lady. But many of them we can't do anything about. Not looking at them doesn't make them go away.

If he sees her treating someone unkindly, he can intervene. Otherwise let him worry about his own problems.
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Sometimes I've found that a mildly disagreeing statement, said with a tremendous degree of bright innocence, works. As in "All these foreigners are coming here and ruining our country" to which you reply as if you'd not understood, "Oh yes, I love meeting so many different people" or "I know this really great Bosnian restaurant" or "I know just what you mean, my best friend is a Jew, and my cousin's from Africa." Usually the non sequitur will make them blink a bit, then change the subject. The more stubborn ones will keep up such exchanges for two or three go-rounds, then give it up as a bad job.
 

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Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :
 
Ha ha ha, I know someone to use that on! Thanks, Lamb! (OK, now I know I should NOT be hoping this person will make a racist comment soon just so I can try this out. No, no, no, I am going to make myself hope that no racist comment is made for a VERY LONG TIME, maybe so long that I'll forget Lamb's wonderful idea. I am NOT hoping to try this out soon and see the reaction. No, no, no. At least, I'm TRYING not to hope that.)
 

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Posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom (# 3434) on :
 
Goodness me, is he 17 already? A set of brief scripts is an excellent idea, and also a bit of an exit plan if he really can't deal with it on a particular day. Teaching him to ignore as much as he can is probably also a good idea.

I feel for him, because even at 50 I still have to deal with this kind of thing among my clients. My own rationalisation is that I am there to do a particular job, and getting into an argument about something totally unrelated will derail the focus I need to do the job.

The worst time was arriving to find only the mum in evidence. I asked where dad was, and she answered, "Oh, he's recording that program on praying the gay away." There was absolutely no point in reacting to this, as it would have meant the end of my work with them. Clearly they hadn't spotted me for a lesbian.

While it would have been lovely to do a big show and tell, it would have been totally unprofessional, and would have meant that the kids in the house would have missed out on what support I could give them (and the kids were light years ahead of their parents).
 

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Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on :
 
Arrgh. I have this issue with clients all the time. The irony is that my clients, without exception, themselves belong to assorted 'categories' subjected to similar prejudice -- they are, in the vernacular they themselves suffer, "crips," "retards," and "loonies," etc. "Isn't it a good thing nobody ever says nasty things about people in your situation," I sometimes say.

"But they do!" is the response I usually get.

"Yes, and how does that make you feel?"

That generally shuts them up for a bit.
 

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Posted by lily pad (# 11456) on :
 
Another possible strategy is to freely use you as an excuse. When I had similar issues as a teen, my parents were quick to point out that I could just say that they would never approve of me discussing such matters and most elderly folks would consider the subject closed. He could make it a habit to reply to things he knows are sketchy by declaring that he'll discuss that with his mom when he gets home.

I see no real moral dilemma. He is going to run into people who believe differently than you do and he might as well figure out responses that allow him to maintain his dignity without the other person being called out by a 17 year old.
 

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Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :
 
He's going to have to find his own style in dealing with this. There is a middle path of dissenting without trying to argue the point; "I guess we'll have to disagree on that..." or "I have friends in that minority who aren't like that..." It's unlikely to succeed if there's a political party using dog whistle tactics like "the immigrants are stealing our jobs" and such..

Having raised the dissent, you can try to move on to other subjects. She may realize she needs to avoid the topics if she wants conversation. It seems like a useful skill to learn.
 

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Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :
 
Don't let him run away from it. He is doing work that they appreciate, which he also enjoys (a not-very-common thing these days) and he has to learn to get along with his neighbours. As posted upthread, there are ways to deal with the more difficult comments without affecting his integrity or theirs'.

And he will need the skills he learns. However much the young see things in a new light, the rest of us, damaged as we are, are still there, all around him - and he will meet "young" people who are just as prejudiced and much nastier about it. Life goes on.
 

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Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :
 
Excellent advice so far, some great tips which I will try to take on board.

He doesn't, of course, have to respond at all and often silence is a good choice. He could try "I" statements such as commenting on how he enjoys the multicultural aspects of his college life. He can even cite me if he wants and how, in 17 years over here, I have never faced any overt racism.

Or he could divert the conversation on to other topics - do the couple have kids and grandkids, nieces, nephews, etc.? Talk about them and their lives and jobs and schools, etc. He can talk about his hobbies, his camera, the fun he has with it. Good grief, he's British - he can always talk about the weather!

He doesn't need to rise to the bait - if he establishes a pattern of not rising she may [eventually] realise that it is not a useful subject.

In extremis he can always recite his times tables in his head!
 

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Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :
 
...and I've just thought of that bit in Ecclesiastes which can be interpreted as:

quote:

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To everything there is a season - a time to speak out and a time to keep silence

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Perhaps one of the things he is learning here is that there are some very difficult people in this world.
 

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Posted by piglet (# 11803) on :
 
From your description he sounds like a very sensible young man, and wise beyond his years if he can accept that the old lady is behaving according to the mores of her generation.

I'm not really in a position to offer advice, and certainly not any better than others have done: the "gentle touch" strikes me as the best, possibly trying to bite his tongue a bit, at least until he's got to know his employer a bit better. Once he's more at ease with her (if not with her views), responses like "I have friends who are gay/Jewish/Muslim/Polish/Scottish*", said with a lightness of touch may be the best approach.

* delete as appropriate.

I added "Scottish" because the lady sounds rather as I imagine D's late grandmother, who didn't approve of Scots at all, and obligingly died just before we got engaged, so didn't get the chance to disapprove of me.
 

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Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :
 
Silence, and a shifting of the topic to something of interest to her worked best for me when my Mother went on about things with which I disagreed.

At least for a while. I just repeated the actions in my first paragraph.

But she was always learning, and even a few days before her death she demonstrated an attitude change on an opinion which she had firmly held all of her life, to the despair of her adult children.

But she was still voting Tory a week before her death. That's one thing that never changed.
 

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Posted by QJ (# 14873) on :
 
when your son see's himself as another version of the old lady and that god is daily overlooking your sons sins and failures, he will understand god more and what grace means. i was out in the yard mowing my lawn and in my heart complaining about my awful neighbor. god opened my heart to see how many bad things i was also doing as a neighbor and i felt the spirit of god like the big hand in monty python come down from heaven and bonk me on my head and i had to slump down laughing in my soul and say "ok god, i get it."
god puts up with so much from ALL of us.
 

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Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :
 
Yes to the shifting topic idea. Not saying it always works, some people have a pet topic and insist on it. But a lot of people, especially if they get somewhat isolated as they age, just want conversation.

Cleaning garage and yard? Think oral history - in the garden "tell me about your first garden"; "is (name a plant) hard to grow?" In the storage shelves "a tennis racquet, did you play tennis, tell me about it I've never played." Or even world events - do you think they'll ever find that missing plane?" "What's your favorite charity?"

I know the usual advice is questions that cannot be answered in a single word, but that's to get reluctant conversation going. With a chatterer you usually just need to hand them a topic and they are off running. If they don't grab it and run, or they head a distressing direction with it, hand them another - "you have cardinals in your yard!"
 

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Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :
 
Piglet's biting your tongue advice seems best to me. OK, he doesn't agree with what is being said, or approve of it either, but he's better keeping his silence and letting it go over the top.
 

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Posted by Mrs Shrew (# 8635) on :
 
Shifting topics a good idea, but he may need to be aware that for people of a certain generation, asking questions about them is considered nosy to the point of incredibly rude. Even such innocuous things as "how many children do you have" or "want did you do in the war?"
My grandmother cut off all contact with a helpful friendly neighbour who mowed her lawn and put our her bins for her because he kept asking things like "how are your granddaughters" and "have you heard from your son overseas lately" and (when it being so much friendlier during the war was mentioned "what did you do in the war".
We could all see he was trying to make her feel valued and to give her things to talk about which were not daily mail headlines but could not convince her.
This lady's mileage may vary of course.
 

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Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :
 
If he gets to know the lady well enough, he could try some mild teasing, " Who does the Daily Mail tell you to hate today ... ?" Works on my mum who's the same generation.

It's not ideal, but your son is going to come across these attitudes wherever he works - the elderly just tend to be blunter about it! Learning to navigate his way through them is all good.

Tubbs
 

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Posted by Porridge (# 15405) on :
 
TANGENT ALERT

You know, as one who is sneaking, however reluctantly, up on Senior Citizenhood myself, I have to say the sheer volume of characterizations of elders in this thread as ignorant, cranky, racist, incapable of change, etc. etc. is beginning to get to me. Can we ease up a bit?

A fair few elder-folk number among my personal acquaintance. Not a single one espouses the kinds of views being attributed to their age-peers on this thread. In fact, without exception, they're people who, when younger, were on the front lines during the Civil Rights movement, feminism's First Wave, people who favor OoW, marriage equality, immigration reform, etc. etc. Very progressive and liberal-minded they are. Two have served multiple jail sentences for protesting at a weapons manufacturer in my state (the elder of these people is in his 80s). That, frankly, is one of the reasons they're my friends.

Racism, sexism, classism et al. are not attributes of advanced age. They're attributes of racists, sexists, etc. Frankly, it seems to me pretty disrespectful to cut "poor old dears" slack by not challenging misinformed views and instead assuming the poor things can't change or learn any more simply because there's now snow on the roof.

END TANGENT
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
It's true, and yet it reminds me a bit of teaching--you might have sixty decent students, and it's the one bad apple that sticks in the mind. And the fact that the person under discussion is spouting racist conversation at a kid who never brought up the subject suggests that she fits that category a bit better than that of the 59 others. We'll hope not, but still...

Or do you think he can convert her, or should even try? Because I would think that very unlikely, even if she is a thoroughly decent person in every other respect.
 

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Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Porridge:
TANGENT ALERT

You know, as one who is sneaking, however reluctantly, up on Senior Citizenhood myself, I have to say the sheer volume of characterizations of elders in this thread as ignorant, cranky, racist, incapable of change, etc. etc. is beginning to get to me. Can we ease up a bit?

A fair few elder-folk number among my personal acquaintance. Not a single one espouses the kinds of views being attributed to their age-peers on this thread. In fact, without exception, they're people who, when younger, were on the front lines during the Civil Rights movement, feminism's First Wave, people who favor OoW, marriage equality, immigration reform, etc. etc. Very progressive and liberal-minded they are. Two have served multiple jail sentences for protesting at a weapons manufacturer in my state (the elder of these people is in his 80s). That, frankly, is one of the reasons they're my friends.

Racism, sexism, classism et al. are not attributes of advanced age. They're attributes of racists, sexists, etc. Frankly, it seems to me pretty disrespectful to cut "poor old dears" slack by not challenging misinformed views and instead assuming the poor things can't change or learn any more simply because there's now snow on the roof.

END TANGENT

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
It's true, and yet it reminds me a bit of teaching--you might have sixty decent students, and it's the one bad apple that sticks in the mind. And the fact that the person under discussion is spouting racist conversation at a kid who never brought up the subject suggests that she fits that category a bit better than that of the 59 others. We'll hope not, but still...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Or do you think he can convert her, or should even try? Because I would think that very unlikely, even if she is a thoroughly decent person in every other respect.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Zacchaeus:

In general I find that people when they get older are the same as when they were young – only more so.

So if they were grumpy they become grumpier, if they kind they don’t become grumpy, if they were tolerant they don’t suddenly become all sorts of …ists: sexist, racist etc

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quote:

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Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Porridge: we were asked to comment on the specific problem, not to grumble that the lady wasn't like other people somewhere else. Exception to prove the rule, if you like, but still there, just like the cat on your chest at 2 AM.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I don't think anybody was saying that age excuses racism;

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
but it does make it that much harder for a seventeen-year-old to correct (engage, contradict, whatever) the racist. If it were a peer of his own age, I suspect he'd have no hesitation. But the respect and power imbalance here is going to make that difficult, maybe impossible.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Yes, somebody should try. But I don't think it should be him.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
... they clearly grew up in a time and place where such remarks were acceptable ...

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That seems to me to be the essence of the problem with Racist-employer-lady. Her opinions may have gone unremarked when she was younger, so it may not even occur to her that they were A Bit Off, and now that she's older she's used to people giving her a bit of leeway because she's older.

To Smudgie's son I'd invoke the old prayer - I'm paraphrasing as I can't remember the exact words, but this is the gist:

Lord, give me the courage to change what I can, the patience to tolerate what I can't, and the wisdom to tell the difference.
 

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Posted by The Intrepid Mrs S (# 17002) on :
 
Wrt the comments upthread about not labelling people as racist simply because they are old - is it not true that with increasing age the frontal lobes of the brain can (notice I say 'can') begin to atrophy, and with them our control mechanisms? Hence as people grow old, they may become less guarded in their audible comments, not only about race, but in all sorts of ways - 'hasn't that man got an enormous nose?' and so on.

The Dowager Mrs. S, for instance, may never have been the soul of tact, but it is only in her later years that she has been known to say things like 'that trifle looks as if someone's thrown up in it', and so on.

My friend's MiL has her own phrase - 'I'm 92 and I can say what I like'. So, if she has always harboured racist beliefs, it means that now she feels entirely free to express them simply because she is old. Is this an instance for the Smudgelet where it really is 'better to be kind than right'?

Mrs. S, and yes, that was my trifle
 

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Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :
 
How fantastic that the 17 year old in question perceives this is a dilemma. I think it requires a combination of principles (i.e. to find racism repugnant and intolerable) but also sensitivity and respect for an elder in order for the dilemma to occur.

I cannot imagine a better testament to character and upbringing.

Although it would be interesting to know whether what holds him back is in fact respect for elders or the filthy lucre hanging in the balance.
 

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Posted by Earwig (# 12057) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by mdijon:
How fantastic that the 17 year old in question perceives this is a dilemma. I think it requires a combination of principles (i.e. to find racism repugnant and intolerable) but also sensitivity and respect for an elder in order for the dilemma to occur.

I cannot imagine a better testament to character and upbringing.

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Indeed. When he gets to know her a bit better, could he tell her that he finds some of what she says a bit difficult? That might pave the way for any further discussions about sexuality, too.
 

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Posted by sophs (# 2296) on :
 
I generally ignore and change the subject unless my grandmother is being totally wrong on a factual level (itching my nose will cause cancer was that last one), or being a total raging hypocrite. She hates immigrants and people who don't work, which isn't that unusual until you realise she came from Slovenia in 1946 and has never worked in her life.

Also, 17
 

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Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
Echoing mdijon and Earwig - Smudgie, that's a heck of a man you've raised. You must be very proud of him.
 

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Posted by Smudgie (# 2716) on :
 
Thank you for all your comments.. and especially the compliments on my young man of whom I am indeed incredibly proud - though don't tell him I said that! He's not a bad lad, all things considered!

He has been really encouraged by your comments and in discussion today he's decided to go back, remembering that she's clearly quite lonely (hence the incessant talking) and frustrated at her own decreasing ability to keep on top of things. He can see that there may be some value in learning to deal with conversations which make him feel uncomfortable. He's armed with your brilliant suggestions for changing the subject. He doesn't tend to be mercenary, but we've also decided that it might help him to have something to focus on if it does become wearing so he's picturing the new bike he's saving towards (he's gone and outgrown his old one - what a nuisance these growing teenagers are!) and we'll see how it goes.

Porridge, I understand your comments. I by no means think that all older people are racists or that age is any excuse for the sort of opinions she is expressing. Nor do I think that it should be tolerated or left unchallenged on account of her age. However, I do think that there can be a subtle difference in the racism of different generations, born of the expectations of the era in which they spent their formative years, and that this specific example is influenced by that cultural difference in a way that my 17 year old has rarely experienced before... and as others have said, I do not think it is my son's place to be the one to challenge her, at least until he knows her better and has built a relationship with her. The issue of her age is more a case, as has been said, of the balance of power and my son's desire not to be disrespectful. But it's a good opportunity for him to learn that the world and its issues are not quite as black and white as his teenage head would like to catagorise them.

And yes, where have the years gone! My little Smudgelet has his first driving lesson in three weeks' time (heaven help us!)
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
Almost the first time I saw my Dad (born early 1920's) angry with other adults was when a few of his subordinates (b. 1940's) were talking about the inhabitants of an island in the Mediterranean using terms Alf Garnett wouldn't have used.

(nb, we were living on said island and my Dad and subordinates were members of the armed forces. Then again he spent about a dozen years overseas, mostly in Africa and the Middle East.)
 

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