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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Contemplative Prayer
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Macrina
Shipmate
# 8807
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Posted
I have spent the past few months seriously deciding if I should become a Catholic or not.This has meant, amongst other things a lot reading, particularly of St Theresa of Avila, re-reading Merton and very slowly starting to use the 'Sacred Story' as a guide to re-establishing a prayer life.
St Theresa hit me between the eyes at 400 years. It was a startling experience and suddenly I felt like someone had sat me down and gently explained exactly what Christianity was for. I have always had a great respect and admiration for the mystics and contemplative saints that the Church has produced and this has a been a great attraction for me.
However, in finding various videos/talks on Youtube from Catholics about contemplation (in addition to my reading) I've come across various opinions from a number of Evangelical authors who seem to greatly fear and distrust contemplation and actively warn against it. Here is a link to an article that espouses this postion: http://www.empoweredbychrist.org/contemplative-prayer.html
I'm curious as to what Shipmates make of the distrust that is shown here? Is it valid? For my part I think diving off into contemplation unguarded is dangerous and I am wary of it myself, but I can't quite see it as occult and dangerous. What place should contemplation have in the lives of ordinary Christians, whatever their denomination and how should they be guided?
Posts: 535 | From: Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
Thankfully, us evangelicals are losing this default mistrust of anything outside our narrow tribe. Not that you need our support necessarily, but fwiw, these days you'll find lots of evangelicals like Richard Foster, John Ortberg and Dallas Willard that are gently introducing our tribe to Teresa, Julian, and others among the ancient mystics.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Macrina
Shipmate
# 8807
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Posted
Thanks cliffdweller ![[Smile]](smile.gif) I have seen that it is starting to appear within evangelical churches, I'd known about it myself when I was on the edges of them. That's why I was more surprised at some of the vitriol shown by those who disagreed with the practice of it. I think it would be very interesting to see how such practices grow and develop outside of the frames of the more Catholic churches.
Posts: 535 | From: Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: Nov 2004
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Morgan
Shipmate
# 15372
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Posted
In my opinion vitriol is a sign that its point of origin is to be viewed with at least as much suspicion as its target. In my experience contemplative prayer is a thing of great beauty and holiness, bringing humility, a peaceful heart and a love of both God and neighbour. It is also wonderfully ecumenical as its focus is an openness to the love of God rather than a commitment to a particular dogma or theological perspective or position.
Posts: 111 | From: Canberra | Registered: Dec 2009
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Nicodemia
WYSIWYG
# 4756
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Posted
Despite being in an Evangelical church and despsite the vitriol of the link I love the idea of contemplative prayer.
But, I have a problem. I suffer from tinnitus and trying to be silent is impossible. Music helps, but is then a distraction of its own.
I am not trying to be difficult or flippant. Does anyone else have this problem and how have you overcome it? ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
Posts: 4544 | From: not too far from Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2003
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Certainly when one church in our town (with impeccable Evangelical credentials) recently mounted an evening which highlighted various sorts of prayer, including Contemplative Prayer, the poor people organising got a huge amount of internet abuse very much along the lines of the article cited in the OP. Sad.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Cara
Shipmate
# 16966
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Posted
The vitriol of the link is quite disturbing. Like Morgan I have experienced benefits of contemplative/centering prayer. But then I see nothing wrong with taking spiritual techniques from other traditions, like Buddhism. And anyway, as even the article linked to shows, contemplative prayer has a very ancient origin in Christianity. But I suppose the narrow "sola scriptura" school just has opinions like that--no need for us to be exercised over them unless we subscribe to that narrow outlook.
In fact Macrina's question is making me think about resuscitating my lapsed habit of centering prayer/meditation, which I allowed to lapse simply through laziness--I know the practice was of great benefit to me.
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Pondering.
Posts: 898 | Registered: Feb 2012
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Morgan:
In my opinion vitriol is a sign that its point of origin is to be viewed with at least as much suspicion as its target.
Which is equally applicable to the anti-evangelical vitriol on some of these boards! ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
I see no issue with contemplative prayer. I pray that way sometimes, but as part of a "mixed and (hopefully) helpful diet" as one friend put it to me, when we were discussing styles of prayer. Simply because some conservatives shun it doesn't necessarily mean that it should be embraced wholly, and I worry about those who only pray in one way (contemplatively or otherwise).
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Macrina:
I'm curious as to what Shipmates make of the distrust that is shown here? Is it valid? For my part I think diving off into contemplation unguarded is dangerous and I am wary of it myself, but I can't quite see it as occult and dangerous. What place should contemplation have in the lives of ordinary Christians, whatever their denomination and how should they be guided?
Not valid distrust at all, IMO. In fact, I'd say that article shows a worryingly one-dimensional and simplistic approach to prayer. Jesus did indeed 'teach us how to pray' but he also went to lonely places to be along in prayer, and there are several prayers recorded in the New Testament that don't exactly map on to the Lord's Prayer 'blueprint'.
I agree with TheAlethiophile that contemplative prayer shouldn't be embraced because certain other Christians shun and condemn it, and neither should it be the only way we pray. But it's a good, Godly thing, ISTM; and something which I really must do more often.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
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Posted
We've seen a lot of reaction to the style of rhetoric, but no one has yet engaged with the argument, which is quote:
While prayer is always a good thing and something that every Christian should strive to do daily, we must keep in remembrance that the Jesus has already given us a method of prayer in Matthew 6:9 He teaches us how to pray to our Father in Heaven. We don’t need a NEW or BETTER way to pray to God or in this case we don’t need a way to pray to God that is based on mysticism and the occult.
Is mysticism based on the occult? are we taking risks by deviating from the pattern that Jesus taught us in Matt 6?
Their rant about Lectio Divina is more specific quote:
those who take this mystical approach to reading and praying over Scriptures can disconnect it from its context and natural meaning. Instead they can use it in a subjective, individualistic, experiential method.
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People practicing this form of contemplative prayer, or Lectio Divina , are so eager to hear something supernatural that they can lose the objectivity needed to discern between God’s voice, their own thoughts, and the infiltration of demons into their minds.
Is that a real risk, and are there steps we can take to avoid it?
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
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Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
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Posted
[Cross posted with Kevin, who has engaged a bit more with their argument]
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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Macrina:
I'm curious as to what Shipmates make of the distrust that is shown here? Is it valid? For my part I think diving off into contemplation unguarded is dangerous and I am wary of it myself, but I can't quite see it as occult and dangerous. What place should contemplation have in the lives of ordinary Christians, whatever their denomination and how should they be guided?
If there's anything new in the church, someone will be at the ready to say it is evil or heretical. I recently saw someone claiming that "Korean Prayer" (congregational prayer where individual prayers on the same topic are verbalized, so you hear a sort of dull murmur) is actually banned in Scripture.
Korean Prayer
Why Christians can't disagree without immediately jumping to the point of something being evil/sinful/occult really troubles me.
I see nothing wrong with contemplative prayer nor have I heard anyone in my little sphere of evangelicalism (CofE charismatic evangelical) say anything negative about it.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Bob Two-Owls
Shipmate
# 9680
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Macrina:
I'm curious as to what Shipmates make of the distrust that is shown here? Is it valid? For my part I think diving off into contemplation unguarded is dangerous and I am wary of it myself, but I can't quite see it as occult and dangerous.
I have never understood how contemplative prayer is unbiblical, as far as I remember the Bible people were often nipping off into the wilderness to be quiet and wait for God to speak. Contemplation and meditation are merely ways of achieving a wilderness-like experience within the confines of a household life. I also don't think that contemplation can really be dangerous for a person in reasonable mental health. Coming from a Buddhist background I know forms of tantric meditation that can cause problems but they are not openly taught and there is always an element of supervision. Such meditation techniques often use a form of creative delusion, mentally assuming divine attributes, and can lead to ego-inflation if unchecked. Christian contemplation is nothing like this, nor is it based on the occult, which is usually a de-contextualized form of Buddhist/Hindu meditation.
Posts: 1262 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
Not sure why prayer would be viewed as an either-or: either scriptural or contemplative.
The scriptures and indeed the Lord's Prayer itself can be used in the context of contemplation.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Macrina:
... However, in finding various videos/talks on Youtube from Catholics about contemplation (in addition to my reading) I've come across various opinions from a number of Evangelical authors who seem to greatly fear and distrust contemplation and actively warn against it. Here is a link to an article that espouses this postion: http://www.empoweredbychrist.org/contemplative-prayer.html
I'm curious as to what Shipmates make of the distrust that is shown here? Is it valid? For my part I think diving off into contemplation unguarded is dangerous and I am wary of it myself, but I can't quite see it as occult and dangerous....
No. It's not valid. It's seriously wrong. You are absolutely right to be wary of diving off into contemplation unguarded, but the producer of the website you link to gets very near saying 'prayer is a dangerous, suspect and hazardous activity, and only OK if you do it the way I tell you to'.
I'm not sure I can say anything charitable about the suggestion that there's something wrong with the Lectio Divina. It seems to be driven by the logic 'that's what the Papes do; so it must be a bad thing'. It might be possible to drift off into some amorphous vagueness, or to be driven by a desire for supernatural kicks, but that's misusing the Lectio and not submitting to the scripture one has just read. If one's ambition is to misuse the Bible, TULIP is a quicker and easier way of doing it.
quote:
What place should contemplation have in the lives of ordinary Christians, whatever their denomination and how should they be guided?
I think this depends very much on who you are, but if you feel drawn to contemplation, you should always follow it. However, don't do anything that makes you feel uncomfortable, and particularly not unless you have a spiritual director that you've grown to have confidence in.
[ 25. February 2014, 11:37: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Macrina:
I'm curious as to what Shipmates make of the distrust that is shown here? Is it valid? For my part I think diving off into contemplation unguarded is dangerous and I am wary of it myself, but I can't quite see it as occult and dangerous. What place should contemplation have in the lives of ordinary Christians, whatever their denomination and how should they be guided?
It depends on your temperament, but I find it an essential part of the day. I’m a great fan of Pray As You Go, which gives you a short daily meditation with some music to start the day (very useful and relaxing on the commute) and Sacred Space which is a good way to finish the day.
Contemplation of other things, e.g. the Rosary, the Stations of the Cross, etc, can be very fruitful, sometimes moving and powerful. Reciting prayers from Scripture, unless you stop and think about the words, and mull them over, and put some meaning into them, is a lot less use IMO. Lectio divina is another good thing, and as you get into it, you may find you don't even need a passage, just a few words will do.
It requires practice but done properly it can bring you insights, make you think, challenge your beliefs and self-image, and over a period of time it will change you so that you are more receptive to God. Of course it isn't all plain sailing (nobody likes looking at their less attractive aspects) but I really can't see contemplation as a bad thing.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
And one more link that I've found useful, the Labyrinth. Old but still good as a striking and thought-provoking basis for contemplative prayer.
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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StevHep
Shipmate
# 17198
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Posted
I think that the Desert Fathers did counsel very strongly about the dangers inherent in contemplative prayer in ways which some Evangelicals may broadly agree with. One does open oneself to delusions and overweening pride unless one places oneself firmly within the religious traditions of the universal church and under the guidance of wise spiritual direction and one also participates with gladness in the shared liturgical life of the church.
The gifts flowing from contemplation are primarily given in order to be of service to others and not for personal ecstasy or exaltation.
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http://catholicscot.blogspot.co.uk/
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Posts: 241 | From: Exeter | Registered: Jul 2012
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
We've seen a lot of reaction to the style of rhetoric, but no one has yet engaged with the argument, which is quote:
While prayer is always a good thing and something that every Christian should strive to do daily, we must keep in remembrance that the Jesus has already given us a method of prayer in Matthew 6:9 He teaches us how to pray to our Father in Heaven. We don’t need a NEW or BETTER way to pray to God or in this case we don’t need a way to pray to God that is based on mysticism and the occult.
Is mysticism based on the occult? are we taking risks by deviating from the pattern that Jesus taught us in Matt 6?
Their rant about Lectio Divina is more specific quote:
those who take this mystical approach to reading and praying over Scriptures can disconnect it from its context and natural meaning. Instead they can use it in a subjective, individualistic, experiential method.
...
People practicing this form of contemplative prayer, or Lectio Divina , are so eager to hear something supernatural that they can lose the objectivity needed to discern between God’s voice, their own thoughts, and the infiltration of demons into their minds.
Is that a real risk, and are there steps we can take to avoid it?
My thoughts:
1. The author is (big surprise) reading Scripture too woodenly. The Bible is full of prayers. The Lord's Prayer is a great model, one we should use (and one, btw, that lends itself well to a more contemplative style of prayer). But the fact that we have in the Bible a whole book of prayers of all sorts of types suggests that Jesus wasn't meaning to set up some rigid formula, but rather leading us into the heart of God.
2. Contemplative prayer is not some "new type" of prayer. As others have noted, it's found throughout Scripture.
3. They have a faulty view of the occult-- ironically, it's almost an "occult" view of the occult in that it's sort of "magical". The suggestion seems to be that certain rituals will conjure up a demon in some magical way. I believe in the reality of evil, even personified evil/ Satan. But I don't believe in this magical approach to it.
4. I agree that there is a danger in substituting our word for God's. This danger is not limited to contemplative prayer. It's a risk in charismatic prophesy-- and it's a risk in evangelical Bible study. Interestingly, contemplative Christianity has probably done a better job than most any group of thinking through that, giving us ways to "test our leadings" (e.g. Ignatian desolation/ consolation, Quaker clearness committees, etc.)
5. Basically the argument is based in fear and encourages us to be driven by fear. In general I don't find that a healthy way to proceed.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
What a nasty, poisonous (and illiterate) article. What is Lectio Divina if not scriptural? What is monasticism except a movement founded on scripture?
Thank God that evangelicals are (re)discovering contemplation and catholics are (re)discovering the Bible.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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art dunce
Shipmate
# 9258
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Posted
I once went on a weekend contemplative retreat focused on the Psalms led by Cynthia Bourgeault and one participant asked her about the dangers they had heard about concerning leaving yourself open for demons to sneak in, etc, and she replied , "For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. "Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone?" If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!"
It was a reminder that God loves us and when we sit with the intention of creating space for him and making room for the Holy Spirit we should not do so in fear since God is good and we are safe in the shadow of his wings.
Certainly, it is wise to have a spiritual guide but that is more about not allowing the ego to co-opt the gifts of the spirit and to help you on what can be at times a difficult journey.
I personally love the writings of Thomas Keating.
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Ego is not your amigo.
Posts: 1283 | From: in the studio | Registered: Apr 2005
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Hebdom
Shipmate
# 14685
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Posted
'Be still and know that I am God'. ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
I know lots of people who practise contemplative prayer, right across the spectrum; Baptists, Salvation Army, Quakers, Uniting Church (of Australia), Anglicans, Orthodox, Roman Catholic. I think it's a case of letting our lives show forth what we believe. I would find it very difficult to believe that any of these people are possessed by evil.
Posts: 163 | From: Terra australis | Registered: Mar 2009
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I feel very suspicious of the sort of evangelical who finds 'evil' lurking in everything they don't agree with. You'd think they'd just be glad that so many people wanted to pray, without dictating exactly how they do that.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hebdom:
'Be still and know that I am God'.
Except - in context - that's actually reads more like a call to stop arguing with each other, rather than a call to some kind of contemplative spirituality.
I'd agree with cliffdweller - the primary danger comes from within rather than without - mistaking ones owns thoughts/feelings etc for words from God. Though any healthy tradition sooner or later develops tests and practices to prevent this.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I feel very suspicious of the sort of evangelical who finds 'evil' lurking in everything they don't agree with. You'd think they'd just be glad that so many people wanted to pray, without dictating exactly how they do that.
I think they are scared of what might come up in the silence.
Doubt, for example, is very threatening to those who believe that they possess the whole truth.
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
Any sort of religious method can lead to spiritual problems, this is as true for "contemplative prayer" as for anything else. And while the specifics of the method determine the sort of problems that commonly arise, the cure is always the same: discernment of spirits. I copy here just some keywords (not the explanations, please read the source) from Chapter 14 ('Discernment of Spirits') of Fr Jordan's "Spiritual Theology":
quote:
The following characteristics are general signs of the Divine Spirit:
1. Truth
2. Gravity
3. Enlightenment
4. Docility
5. Discretion
6. Humility
7. Peace
8. Confidence in God
9. Flexibility of will
10. Purity of intention
11. Patience in suffering
12. Self-abnegation
13. Simplicity
14. Liberty of spirit
15. Desire to imitate Christ
16. Disinterested love
If your practice causes these, then there is little to worry about.
Concerning the practice of "contemplative prayer" as such, I recommend Abbot John Chapman's "Spiritual Letters". This is the most encouraging and clear but thoroughly modern source that I know, which nevertheless come from the depth of Christian tradition rather than borrowing lots from other places.
Having been heavily into Zen before becoming Catholic, I personally believe that much of "Eastern meditation" is incompatible with Christianity. And it is a kind of disrespect to switch freely between traditions, because that suggests that the methods are so unspecific that it doesn't really matter... I do not believe that this is true. In fact, in the terms of the classic "The Cloud of Unknowing" I can be specific: Buddhist style meditation has the trampling underfoot of the world in the "cloud of forgetting" but it does not have the simultaneous stretching towards God in the "cloud of unknowing". And this lead to different (intended!) spiritual outcomes.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicodemia:
But, I have a problem. I suffer from tinnitus and trying to be silent is impossible. Music helps, but is then a distraction of its own.
I have minor tinnitus as well. I find nature the best thing for me. When I cannot, Gregorian Chant works well most times. The lack of volume change helps most, like a vocal version of the ocean. IF even that is too much, some sort of low, white noise. Often merely a low speed fan.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Nicodemia
WYSIWYG
# 4756
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Posted
Thanks lil'buddha - I'll try the chants. One of my tinnitus noises is very loud white noise - think I'll leave the fan alone!
But thank you for taking the trouble to help me.
Posts: 4544 | From: not too far from Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2003
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
Very interesting thread -- only in the last few years (well, really since the election of a new leader for our denomination world-wide, who seems to have a particular vendetta about this) there have been a flurry of warnings within my denomination about "dangerous spiritual practices" including contemplative prayer and the use of the term "spiritual formation." I find this fear of prayer absolutely ridiculous; it's interesting to see the argument in a larger context with input from other traditions.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
Echoing others who have come across this fear and distrust: in the end being part of a church that preaches fear / distrust/ endless warnings, i find it all gets a bit much and it is time to go.
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
Very interesting thread -- only in the last few years (well, really since the election of a new leader for our denomination world-wide, who seems to have a particular vendetta about this) there have been a flurry of warnings within my denomination about "dangerous spiritual practices" including contemplative prayer and the use of the term "spiritual formation." I find this fear of prayer absolutely ridiculous; it's interesting to see the argument in a larger context with input from other traditions.
Isn't the training of clergy supposed to include their formation, or is the same thing given a different name so as to avoid the impression of the church contradicting itself?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
Well, exactly. "Spiritual formation" describes a process that (ideally) happens, but apparently you now can't use that phrase to describe it.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Concerning tinnitus: I would suggest (but I would, wouldn't I?) the Jesus Prayer. I have pretty bad tinnitus (for me it's very high-pitched drone noises) and it works for me.
quote:
Originally posted by StevHep:
I think that the Desert Fathers did counsel very strongly about the dangers inherent in contemplative prayer in ways which some Evangelicals may broadly agree with.
Can you give me an example of that? I have a couple of collections of the Desert Fathers, you probably have one that I have. Tell me edition and page number and I can check to see if I'm reading it the same way you are.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Having been heavily into Zen before becoming Catholic, I personally believe that much of "Eastern meditation" is incompatible with Christianity. And it is a kind of disrespect to switch freely between traditions, because that suggests that the methods are so unspecific that it doesn't really matter... I do not believe that this is true. In fact, in the terms of the classic "The Cloud of Unknowing" I can be specific: Buddhist style meditation has the trampling underfoot of the world in the "cloud of forgetting" but it does not have the simultaneous stretching towards God in the "cloud of unknowing". And this lead to different (intended!) spiritual outcomes.
Would you mind unpacking and extending on this paragraph a little? I think I know what you mean - I had someone I know poetically describe mantra-style meditation as "Destroying the function of language, without an encounter with the living Word".
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Buddhist style meditation has the trampling underfoot of the world in the "cloud of forgetting" but it does not have the simultaneous stretching towards God in the "cloud of unknowing". And this lead to different (intended!) spiritual outcomes.
I would certainly agree that a Christian strives for God in meditation, which a non-theistic Buddhist wouldn't, but in practice, the difference is less than one might imagine. The writer of "The Cloud of Unknowing" urges his readers to "beat upon the cloud of unknowing with a dart of longing love." And to choose a small word such as God or love with which to direct this dart. This is all remarkably similar to Transcendental Meditation, even where the aim is different. But how different? The mystical tradition of Christianity emphasises the apophatic nature of God, who can be regarded as " No Thing" because none of our senses has any power to grasp Him. I find the Judao-Christian anthropomorphic image of God very helpful, in feeling that I can talk to Him and have Him watch over me at all times, but I recognise that it's just that- an image, which mysticism tries to see beyond.
Far from being dangerous, whacky or pseudo-esoteric, mysticism is, IMO, the true heart of Christianity, indeed of religion. As the Catholic Benedictine monk David Steindl-Rast puts it:
quote:
The religions start from mysticism. There is no other way to start a religion. But, I compare this to a volcano that gushes forth ...and then ...the magma flows down the sides of the mountain and cools off. And when it reaches the bottom, it's just rocks. You'd never guess that there was fire in it. So after a couple of hundred years, or two thousand years or more, what was once alive is dead rock. Doctrine becomes doctrinaire. Morals become moralistic. Ritual becomes ritualistic. What do we do with it? We have to push through this crust and go to the fire that's within it.
This, along with Steindl-Rast's panentheistic view of creation is close to where I'm at. To return to the subject of Contemplative Prayer, I agree that it's a very salutary practice going back to the beginning of the Church. It's best developed in Orthodox Christainity where relgion, spirituality, Divine Liturgy and mysticism are interwoven like Christ's seamless robe. It's also well developed in the Catholic tradition, in which we have preserved the writings of many mystics and much spiritual direction is available. IMO Protestants, who rely only on Scripture can easily miss the point, though it's there to be found in a proper understanding of the Lord's Prayer. Perhaps this is why there are so few Protestant mystics.
I've tried on several occasions to get into Contemplative Prayer. The Jesus Prayer is one such method. As is Christian Mediation as taught by the late Fr John Main OSB. Where I personally have problems with all of these is that they are techniques, and I always get hung up on whether I'm "doing it right." So for me, Brother Lawrence is the answer. He just resolved to live his whole life in God's presence, doing everything for the love of God. I can't do it as he did, because I have a busy life and a mind like a tree full of chattering monkeys, but at Mass, or in the quiet of an empty church, and as often as possible within the daily round, I simply hold myself in God's eternal embrace. It works better for me that any method of prayer.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
I had someone I know poetically describe mantra-style meditation as "Destroying the function of language, without an encounter with the living Word".
Interesting this person thought language only has one function. As if!
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
I've tried on several occasions to get into Contemplative Prayer. The Jesus Prayer is one such method. As is Christian Mediation as taught by the late Fr John Main OSB. Where I personally have problems with all of these is that they are techniques, and I always get hung up on whether I'm "doing it right."
John Main wrote that concerns about getting it right were natural but should be ignored.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
John Main wrote that concerns about getting it right were natural but should be ignored.
Quite so, and I went for a few weeks to the WCCM centre in London. But I would worry if an itch was disturbing my mediation. Or even if too much saliva and swallowing it was a distraction! I think it's a wonderful discipline for anyone who can take to it, as is the recitation of the Jesus Prayer as in "The Way of a Pilgrim." I just said that I, personally, find it much easier to feel God's presence. Frere Laurent said that he needed a confessor for his many sins, but that he had no need of a spiritual director, because all he sought to do was to live perpetually in God's presence, as in a practice for eternity. Don't get me wrong, I'm nt especially good at this either, but I can enjoy being with God whenever possible, without any worries about correct practice.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
For many years, ever since I had to study it as part of my English Degree, I have been inspired by The Cloud of Unknowing, a mediaeval classic on contemplative prayer. I've often used it as my Lent book; I won't be using it this year, but the book is still wonderful.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Would you mind unpacking and extending on this paragraph a little? I think I know what you mean - I had someone I know poetically describe mantra-style meditation as "Destroying the function of language, without an encounter with the living Word".
Hmm, the problem is that subtle differences can become all important there. If I should give a basic characterisation, then I would say that in Buddhism and Yogic practice the end is the stopping and dissolving itself, whereas in Christianity that is merely a means for going somewhere else. Let me put it in the terms of the Cloud of Unknowing: both in Eastern religion and in contemplative Christianity one tramples the world and the ego under into a cloud of forgetting; but in the former you look down on your feet as you trample because the cloud of forgetting is supposed to be identical with the Cloud of Unknowing, whereas in the latter as you trample down you look and reach up in the same motion, because the Cloud of Unknowing hides something completely different (namely God) to the cloud of forgetting. In Zen one "just sits", in Christianity one "sits to meet God". If your method is not directed higher somehow, then it is not Christian. Compare "lectio divina" with a Zen koan, the former tries to inspire the mind beyond itself with God's word, the latter tries to undermine it with paradoxical dada. But it can be difficult to tell the difference, at least from the outside, and "mantra" is too vague a term to make general judgements. One could for example consider the Jesus Prayer as a mantra, but that is, or at least can be, a good Christian method.
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
I would certainly agree that a Christian strives for God in meditation, which a non-theistic Buddhist wouldn't, but in practice, the difference is less than one might imagine.
Exactly the opposite, really. At a first look, the methods and results seem to be very similar, but the difference is much bigger than one might imagine...
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
This, along with Steindl-Rast's panentheistic view of creation is close to where I'm at.
Contemplation is not about being free of, but about being free for.
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
Where I personally have problems with all of these is that they are techniques, and I always get hung up on whether I'm "doing it right." ... I have a busy life and a mind like a tree full of chattering monkeys
The point of technique is to combat the latter (monkey mind) with the former (worry about getting it right). Our minds are simple things, they cannot focus on more than one thing. The monkey wants to jump around here and there, peeking at this and that, but the worry to get it right nails the monkey to a spot and drags him right back if he escapes. Eventually, the monkey will get tired and bored of being in one spot, and go to sleep. Then the worry has nothing to worry about any longer and will ebb away. Then, peace.
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
Or even if too much saliva and swallowing it was a distraction!
Pity, you were likely getting close. Under heavy concentration load, bodies react "nervously", e.g., look at beginning singers fidgeting when trying to carry a tune. If you sit still, there is not much your body can do. Salivating and swallowing is a classic. Did you get super-acute hearing yet?
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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StevHep
Shipmate
# 17198
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Concerning tinnitus: I would suggest (but I would, wouldn't I?) the Jesus Prayer. I have pretty bad tinnitus (for me it's very high-pitched drone noises) and it works for me.
quote:
Originally posted by StevHep:
I think that the Desert Fathers did counsel very strongly about the dangers inherent in contemplative prayer in ways which some Evangelicals may broadly agree with.
Can you give me an example of that? I have a couple of collections of the Desert Fathers, you probably have one that I have. Tell me edition and page number and I can check to see if I'm reading it the same way you are.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Concerning tinnitus: I would suggest (but I would, wouldn't I?) the Jesus Prayer. I have pretty bad tinnitus (for me it's very high-pitched drone noises) and it works for me.
quote:
Originally posted by StevHep:
I think that the Desert Fathers did counsel very strongly about the dangers inherent in contemplative prayer in ways which some Evangelicals may broadly agree with.
Can you give me an example of that? I have a couple of collections of the Desert Fathers, you probably have one that I have. Tell me edition and page number and I can check to see if I'm reading it the same way you are.
I downsized my possessions a few years ago and shed about 95% of my books so I can't do that. I was going on my memory of warnings in the Philokalia against the dangers of fantasy for hesychasts. A quick search found some links relevant to what I had in mind
Prelest
Fantasy defined in Philokalia glossary
Ascetic Discourse
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http://catholicscot.blogspot.co.uk/
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Posts: 241 | From: Exeter | Registered: Jul 2012
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