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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Conversion of Christian Children
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
There is very little - perhaps nothing - in the New Testament that addresses the method by which children of Christian believers are to become full members of the church. We see different practices in different denominations, but Scripture provides little clarification in this area.
I have read that in the 1st century, the faith of the head of household was assumed to be conferred to everyone else in it - meaning that children of Christians were perhaps automatically Christians. On the other hand, Baptists/Anabaptists/evangelicals will point to the "Road to Damascus" type conversions in the New Testament, but these are all new converts and not children raised by Christians.
Given falling church attendance, particularly among the young, is the church being effective enough in bringing children of believers to faith in Christ? Ought we consider new methods? Topics to discuss can include:
- baptism (infant or believers)
- confirmation
- Sunday school/Christian education
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
quote:
is the church being effective enough in bringing children of believers to faith in Christ?
A simplistic 'yes' or 'no' will hardly suffice, I suspect. Some churches do, some don't.
quote:
I have read that in the 1st century, the faith of the head of household was assumed to be conferred to everyone else in it - meaning that children of Christians were perhaps automatically Christians
As someone who is broadly "Baptist/Anabaptist/evangelical" I would add in the word 'deemed' before the final word of the above quote. But it does raise a question of who is and who isn't a christian. It's not a question that I'm convinced should preoccupy us, though. But I would dispute those who take a functional, rather than symbolic, view of baptism.
Sunday schools serve several different purposes, and even these vary depending on the age. At a former church I was a Sunday school teacher for 3-5 age group. There's little by means of theology one can teach. It's more a case of giving the children a space so they don't have to sit through a service (in particular, a sermon) they don't understand. And giving the rest of the congregation space from restless children!
For the older children (12-16) it was about providing an arena for them to ask their challenging questions, allowing them to explore their own thinking as well as to teach them what we (as a church) believe. Some would choose to stick with church, some would choose to leave. I was quite comfortable with that, as I would rather someone left with a good idea of what christianity is about, rather than rejecting a caricature.
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Given that faith is still inherited to varying degrees in Judaism and Islam, I'd guess the early Church expected adult converts to pass the faith down to their children.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
Given falling church attendance, particularly among the young, is the church being effective enough in bringing children of believers to faith in Christ? Ought we consider new methods? Topics to discuss can include:
- baptism (infant or believers)
- confirmation
- Sunday school/Christian education
I don't think the formal institutional responses you've mentioned here are the main issue. Rather, IMO, the church community (which is the body of believers, not just the clergy) simply doesn't do enough to support parents in nurturing children towards the faith. The challenges presented by this task are rarely discussed openly. Yet studies show that religious practices in the home have changed, that parents are now more reluctant to share their faith with their children, are less inclined to pray with them, etc.
We live in a privatised culture where religious people often keep their beliefs to themselves, even at home, and the fact that many churchgoers are married to people who are less religious or differently religious exacerbates this tendency. The increasing number of split families also makes it harder for there to be a consistent Christian witness for children to grow up with, which is, apparently, what really counts. (There are many, many exceptions, of course.)
Moreover, there's usually a shortage of decent Sunday School teachers, youth workers and even clergy (in some denominations). CofE schools are staffed by large numbers of non-religious teachers. So even if religious institutions would like to control the Christianising of children, they really can't. But there should be more of a discussion, and more support for parents.
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
Sunday schools serve several different purposes, and even these vary depending on the age. At a former church I was a Sunday school teacher for 3-5 age group. There's little by means of theology one can teach. It's more a case of giving the children a space so they don't have to sit through a service (in particular, a sermon) they don't understand. And giving the rest of the congregation space from restless children!
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I'm always sad to read this. In 30 years of ministry with children, I've found even young children have a dynamic spiritual life, which can be nurtured in partnership with parents. Godly Play is one example of a curriculum that does a good job of sparking their natural curiosity and giving them space to "wonder about God". We can do much, much more than just baby-sitting, especially when working in conjunction with parents-- providing resources and encouragement for their own family-based nurture.
[code]
[ 05. March 2014, 13:12: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
random thoughts--
I think a lot of parents are just plain scared or embarrassed to discuss Christian faith with their children, sort of like sex. I keep wondering if it's because they started too late (and now the kids are at the "yeah, yeah, Dad" stage) or if it's because they're afraid the kids will ask questions they can't answer, or...??? I know when I was a child with a Christian mother (not father), by the time I was ten (heck, probably eight) I was excessively embarrassed on the rare occasions my mother tried to talk Jesus to me. My son is twelve and has no parallel problems, and I wonder if it's because we started simple family devotions before he was old enough to talk, and he's used to it. But then what do you do for everybody who has halfgrown kids already and wants to talk to them? This is so hard.
I'm a little freaked out by the thread title, too. It's probably my Lutheran background--we baptize infants as early as possible and therefore consider our children Christian basically from birth. So the discussion is always framed as "how can we help them keep/grow up in what they already have," not in terms of conversion. But my Baptist cousins talk that way...
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Lamb Chopped
In the British context infant baptism is now only practiced by a fairly small minority, so it makes sense to talk about the conversion of young people in a more general sense.
Moreover, the great majority of babies are brought for baptism by non-churchgoing parents. They rarely see any need for their children to remain involved in church life once these rites have taken place. If baptism (and confirmation, in some cases) do the job required, why over-egg the pudding? So in most cases it's not children who need to be convinced about the value of church life, but actually the parents. That might even be true of some churchgoers.
For Christian parents who are actively concerned about their children growing up to accept the faith, infant baptism doesn't seem to be the issue at all. In fact, some of them deliberately choose not to baptise their infants, even if their churches practice it. I think they're increasingly attending churches with strong youth programmes. Outside London this tends to mean evangelical churches, so the mainstream churches are probably losing quite a few young families for this reason.
[ 05. March 2014, 15:45: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
In 30 years of ministry with children, I've found even young children have a dynamic spiritual life, which can be nurtured in partnership with parents.
I've come across some who can be spiritual, though I confess it was weird hearing a 4-year old say, "When I grow up I want to be a prophetess."
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Godly Play is one example of a curriculum that does a good job of sparking their natural curiosity and giving them space to "wonder about God".
I've never heard of 'Godly Play'. Could you please educate me as to what this involves? quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
We can do much, much more than just baby-sitting, especially when working in conjunction with parents-- providing resources and encouragement for their own family-based nurture.
I'm sure we can, it's just a question of how. When I was a Sunday school teacher, any time I had an idea and tried to implement it, it failed wholly. That may say more about my teaching skills. The young kids just didn't get it, so we reverted to teaching them some bible stories, some creative activities (usually glitter and glue) and a play time where we encourage sharing, community and not hitting one another over the head with a plastic sheep.
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
I've come across some who can be spiritual, though I confess it was weird hearing a 4-year old say, "When I grow up I want to be a prophetess."
I became a christian at about that age, so did my wife; we both remember it distinctly. We once parted ways with a denomination when we discovered they (or their representative) effectively did not believe it was possible to become a christian at that age, thus declaring us anathema for all intents and purposes.
I also remember going to my very first Sunday School lesson before that, and I'm pretty sure the first chorus I chose was the first verse of There's a friend for little children. Checking out the words, it turns out to be movingly appropriate: quote:
Our earthly friends may fail us,
And change with changing years,
This friend is always worthy
Of that dear Name He bears
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
I've come across some who can be spiritual, though I confess it was weird hearing a 4-year old say, "When I grow up I want to be a prophetess."
I became a christian at about that age, so did my wife; we both remember it distinctly. We once parted ways with a denomination when we discovered they (or their representative) effectively did not believe it was possible to become a christian at that age, thus declaring us anathema for all intents and purposes.
It still makes me smile to remember that at 4 I asked a strictly believer's baptism only minister to baptize me. He was concerned that Mom had put me up to it, and I remembered him asking me to explain what I would know call the mystery of faith. He asked me to say it again from the baptismal because he was worried that the congregation would think it an infant baptism. Apparently quizzed my mom too about my faith.
[ 05. March 2014, 16:13: Message edited by: Gwai ]
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
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lapsed heathen
Hurler on the ditch
# 4403
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Posted
Interesting question.
As a father who failed at keeping his kids 'in the faith' I don't know if theirs an answer.
We did all the usual things, baptism, introduction to prayer, introduction to the sacraments and regular mass going.
The failing was that we were outside the normal behaviour of most people who skipped mass and saw sacraments as milestones in life, to be ticked off at the preordained time and forgotten about till the next one.
Faith is as much part of a culture as a personal or family choice and unless you isolate your selves from the surrounding culture, it's not possible to recapture the way faith was passed down in previous generations.
Best I can hope for is that they (my kids) don't dislike the church and that my example of Christian living rubs off on them.
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"We are the Easter people and our song is Alleluia"
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
In 30 years of ministry with children, I've found even young children have a dynamic spiritual life, which can be nurtured in partnership with parents.
I've come across some who can be spiritual, though I confess it was weird hearing a 4-year old say, "When I grow up I want to be a prophetess."
Yes. At that age they are profoundly spiritual, but also very literal, sometimes with humorous results-- and sometimes quite poignant. But I believe all of us are created as spiritual beings, and all ages have a deep sense and connection to the spiritual-- children perhaps even more so because they have less layers of expectation/ dogma to get in the way.
quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
[I've never heard of 'Godly Play'. Could you please educate me as to what this involves?
Godly Play is a curriculum roughly based on Montessori learning-- very interactive, using manipulatives and thoughtful "I wonder" questions to draw children into the stories of Scripture in an imaginative way. I find it very effective with young children (not as much with older ones in my experience).
a more specifically Anglican version (probably the original but my knowledge of the chronology is iffy) is Cathesis of the Good Shepherd
quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
We can do much, much more than just baby-sitting, especially when working in conjunction with parents-- providing resources and encouragement for their own family-based nurture.
I'm sure we can, it's just a question of how. When I was a Sunday school teacher, any time I had an idea and tried to implement it, it failed wholly. That may say more about my teaching skills. The young kids just didn't get it, so we reverted to teaching them some bible stories, some creative activities (usually glitter and glue) and a play time where we encourage sharing, community and not hitting one another over the head with a plastic sheep.
Sounds like maybe you weren't doing as bad a job as you thought. That's exactly the way children learn-- through story, through movement, through interaction with others. They're not apt to say something like "wow. Thanks for that lesson on___. I am profoundly changed. I will now _______". It's just not the way kids (or adults) are wired. But that doesn't mean they weren't impacted.
Indeed, probably the most profound lesson you taught was just showing up each week, week after week. That demonstrated loudly that they were loved, that they were cared for, that they were worthy of an adult's time and attention. All significant spiritual lessons.
[ 05. March 2014, 16:31: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I actually don't get the "conversion" idea. Or perhaps I lack the discernment to understand the difference from the day before when you have "become" Christian or "a Christian".
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
What’s wrong with teaching children ABOUT Christianity (and other major religions and non-religious worldviews), and thereby educating and permitting them the freedom to decide for themselves whether or not to 'convert' when they've reached the maturity and independence of thinking NECESSARY for such a decision?
No, don't bother. It was a rhetorical question. The answer's obvious, and makes me sick to the stomach.
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این نیز بگذرد
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Yorick, not sure what this 'obvious' answer is supposed to be - I agree with you in many ways. As a childfree person I suppose it's a moot point, but I would want to show a child of mine my faith by my life more than telling them to become a Christian. I also feel quite uncomfortable with the idea of four year olds making a decision to be Christians - feels very Jesus Camp. I realise the examples given on this post are not like that, but I just do not think that four year olds can ever understand the ramifications of making such a decision. I am uncomfortable with such sudden Damascus Road experiences even in adults though - in my experience, most people of mature faith come to faith as a long process, not a sudden conversion.
Bringing a child into the church community by baptism and instruction in the faith leading to confirmation which can then develop into a mature adult faith is much better than indoctrination (although Godly Play is a good thing).
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
'Much better' in what sense?
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این نیز بگذرد
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
I mean, it's not as though atheists ever try to brainwash children, is it?
Ooooh noooooo....
Perish the thought!!
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
Oh, please. And that's supposed to make it better?
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این نیز بگذرد
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
... most people of mature faith come to faith as a long process, not a sudden conversion.
Yes, this is the point. Most people also go through a stage of weighing the options, having their Zen period, totally converted period, the period in which they learn from loved others outside of those who raised them, and they make a deal that seems more or less workable. Accepting some of the core of Christianity, and seeing what might happen. -- of course there are the converted once at 5 or 10 kids, but I think it must be rare or historicity*.
* I mean this to mean: sounding good and having the aura of fact, but the Full Real Story is somewhat more complicated.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
I mean, it's not as though atheists ever try to brainwash children, is it?
Ooooh noooooo....
Perish the thought!!
Both are bad. Plenty of atheists don't brainwash children.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
Likewise plenty of Christians.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
And? Please explain how that makes it less bad that many Christians do.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I also feel quite uncomfortable with the idea of four year olds making a decision to be Christians - feels very Jesus Camp.
I won't speak for others, but I wouldn't have pretended even then that I thought I understood it all. Of course, I don't think I do not either. Damn shame someone branded me Christian for all time when I was four.
Oh wait, I can quit being a Christian at any time if I want. Phew!
That and frankly if a four year old makes the decision, no one can stop them. I made the decision on my own. All the church did was baptize me into their ranks. That's not what made me a Christian though, in my eyes. At the time, I wanted to be baptized because I'd heard in a sermon that when one was a Christian, one was then baptized. So that meant I should be baptized too.
[ 05. March 2014, 19:54: Message edited by: Gwai ]
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
So why don't you quit, Gwai? Because you want to be a Christian, right? And why is that? Why don't you want to be a Moslem? Or a Shinto priestess?
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable
And? Please explain how that makes it less bad that many Christians do.
Where did I say it was less bad?
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
You implied it, by stating that atheists also indoctrinate their children. No need to be shy, EE.
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این نیز بگذرد
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick
So why don't you quit, Gwai? Because you want to be a Christian, right? And why is that? Why don't you want to be a Moslem? Or a Shinto priestess?
So why don't you quit, Yorick? Because you want to be an atheist, right? And why is that? Why don't you want to be a Rastafarian? Or a Juju Priest?
Oh, sorry, I get it! You can't choose, because you don't have free will (despite presumably claiming to be a freethinker). After all, free will is an illusion, right?
quote:
You implied it, by stating that atheists also indoctrinate their children. No need to be shy, EE.
No, I said it to imply that atheists who feign all this concern for children to protect them from the 'evil' "intelligence worldview", are just a bunch of hypocrites.
After all, it's so much more affirming and encouraging to tell a child that he or she is just a bunch of atoms and molecules of no more intrinsic worth and value than a pile of dog shit, isn't it?
[ 05. March 2014, 20:12: Message edited by: EtymologicalEvangelical ]
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I also feel quite uncomfortable with the idea of four year olds making a decision to be Christians - feels very Jesus Camp.
I won't speak for others, but I wouldn't have pretended even then that I thought I understood it all. Of course, I don't think I do not either. Damn shame someone branded me Christian for all time when I was four.
Oh wait, I can quit being a Christian at any time if I want. Phew!
That and frankly if a four year old makes the decision, no one can stop them. I made the decision on my own. All the church did was baptize me into their ranks. That's not what made me a Christian though, in my eyes. At the time, I wanted to be baptized because I'd heard in a sermon that when one was a Christian, one was then baptized. So that meant I should be baptized too.
Yes.
The fact is, all parenting is indoctrination-- whether by theists or nontheists. We indoctrinate our children into our beliefs about teeth brushing and nutrition and saying please and thank you. We indoctrinate our children with our ideas about sharing and gratitude and being considerate. That's what parenting is, and if we neglect to do it, we are not considered very good parents, and our children will not thrive.
Ah, some will say, but that's not the kind of indoctrination we're talking about.
And of course, it isn't. There is indoctrination that is harsh, and overly authoritarian. That doesn't allow room for questions, or dissent. That tries to control and manipulate with shame or fear when it should enlighten with wonder and love.
Christians and non-Christians alike can fall on either side of this line. But it's not the Christianity per se that makes it indoctrination. People of faith often consider that faith to be the most important, the most vital gift they have for life itself-- and so they will naturally want to share that gift with their children, along with the hand-washing and teeth brushing and toy-sharing. We believe it is one of the things that allows children to thrive.
We hope to do so in ways that are not harsh or overly authoritarian. We strive to allow room for questions (Godly Play is good for that), or dissent. To avoid controlling and manipulating with shame or fear and instead enlightening with wonder and love.
Many of our children have not followed us into the faith. They are still ours, they are still loved. We still pray for them. There is room for disagreement.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
(Xp. Was laughing at the dog shit value argument)
Hahaha. That straw man was so silly it actually made me laugh.
So weak, EE.
[ 05. March 2014, 20:15: Message edited by: Yorick ]
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این نیز بگذرد
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
Well, I wish I'd had the guys to teach my kids about Jesus 'as if it were true' when they were small, instead of the wishy washy, I think this but you can make up your own mind when you're ready, crap. Now I've got confused young people with no bedrock of faith, and an entirely too realistic sense of their proportionate importance to the universe.
Posts: 2138 | From: South, UK | Registered: Aug 2008
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
Pray, dear sir, wouldst thou now like to refute said argument, instead of laughing at it?
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
So why don't you quit, Gwai? Because you want to be a Christian, right? And why is that? Why don't you want to be a Moslem? Or a Shinto priestess?
Because now that I'm past this mystical age of reason, I still think my choice is the one that gives me the most peace and sanity.
ETA: I personally expect to see Muslims, practitioners of Shinto, and yes atheists in the afterlife--whatever that means--so maybe the way I interpret grace makes this easier for me.
[ 05. March 2014, 20:22: Message edited by: Gwai ]
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
That's really lovely, cliffdweller, but this thread started off as an exercise in handwringing about how best to ensure that children are converted into Christianity so that it 'sticks'.
Yes, of course we all inculcate our values into our children, but this is about the INTENTION to interfere directly with independent choice. When you indoctrinate your children into Christianity, you do so with the hope and intention that they ultimately come to God through your witness, right? You don't intend to equip them to make a truly free choice for themselves. You INTEND that they find Jesus.
And (all too often) it works. A child of active Christian parents, who intend that they become Christian, is statistically more likely to become one than, say, a Moslem or a Shinto priestess, and vice versa. That's why you do it. And that's what makes me sick.
Inculcating a four year-old into 'wanting' (as if they could have the slightest fucking clue about it) to be a prophetess is morally obscene, and in our increasingly secular civilisation one should hope it might eventually be seen as child abuse.
But where would your religion be without parental indoctrination, eh? Doomed, you tell me? Well, fine.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
The issue is that I don't think I was indoctrinated. I was taught about something my mother believed. But I was also taught about why my dad didn't believe it. It would have worked as well if my dad had been a churchgoer. But it wouldn't have worked as well if I hadn't been taught to question Christianity. I am pretty sure that if my mother had just tried to teach me to believe what she did, I would have talked less in church* but left the church quickly as a grownup.
As it is my faith is very different from my mother's in many ways, so if she was trying to indoctrinate me, she totally failed. If she was trying to help me find a way that was right for me, she did a good job.
*[loud whisper]Mom, why does he think that the bible says that. That makes no sense[/loud whisper]
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
Gwai, do you recognise the causal link between adult uptake of Christianity and childhood, um, let's just say 'experience' of it?
[ 05. March 2014, 20:29: Message edited by: Yorick ]
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
That's really lovely, cliffdweller, but this thread started off as an exercise in handwringing about how best to ensure that children are converted into Christianity so that it 'sticks'.
Yes, of course we all inculcate our values into our children, but this is about the INTENTION to interfere directly with independent choice. When you indoctrinate your children into Christianity, you do so with the hope and intention that they ultimately come to God through your witness, right? You don't intend to equip them to make a truly free choice for themselves. You INTEND that they find Jesus.
Of course they do. Just as parents who practice good nutrition hope their children will grow up to practice good nutrition, and parents who have pursued higher education hope their children will grow up to pursue higher education. Doesn't mean we don't love them if they don't, and doesn't mean they will be forced to comply. But it is normal and natural to want for your children the things that have been valued and meaningful in your own life. I don't think that desire is unique to Christians or to religionists. I suspect that's one thing that's probably pretty much true for every parent in every culture.
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
And (all too often) it works. A child of active Christian parents, who intend that they become Christian, is statistically more likely to become one than, say, a Moslem or a Shinto priestess, and vice versa. That's why you do it. And that's what makes me sick.
Actually, statistically they are more likely to end up "none" (i.e. no religion). So if we are such heavy-handed indoctrinationists as you believe us to be, we're pretty darn lousy at it.
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Inculcating a four year-old into 'wanting' (as if they could have the slightest fucking clue about it) to be a prophetess is morally obscene, and in our increasingly secular civilisation one should hope it might eventually be seen as child abuse.
How absurd. One wonders if you've ever spent any time with 4 year olds.
Of course 4 year olds don't know what a "prophetess" is-- that was the point of the story, btw. And the fact that TheAlethiophile was taken aback by the profession would be a pretty clear indication that the child was not in any way "indoctrinated" into the desire.
It's just what small children do-- try on words, try on identities, play pretend. Pretending to be a "prophetess"-- whatever she imagined that to be-- is a normal, natural thing for a 4 year old to do, in exactly the same way they pretend to be a "firefighter" without knowing a whole lot about what that involves, or President or Princess or Knight. How many small children playing at being a "pirate" have in mind moving to Somalia and running guns?
(When my son was a bit older than that he wrote an essay in school on "what I want to be when I grow up" in which he wrote at length about wanting to be a "lover". He meant "one who loves others".... but it was amusing. Again, kids at that age are very literal).
[ 05. March 2014, 20:35: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
Cliffdweller, why do you suppose there are more Muslims than Rastafarians in Palestine? Because they all elected to emigrate there from Jamaica?
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Gwai, do you recognise the causal link between adult uptake of Christianity and childhood, um, let's just say 'experience' of it?
Fully accepted that teaching a child about Christianity increases their odds of believing it, and staying with it. I suspect the old British songs I got from my grandmother (though my mom) are also more interesting to me because I learned them young. My mom had all kinds of cultural influences on me. My parents are almost certainly related to why I'm in a career working with words, and why I consider myself a writer. If they'd tried to avoid influencing me in any way it would have been impossible, and surely much worse parenting.
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Taliesin:
Well, I wish I'd had the guys to teach my kids about Jesus 'as if it were true' when they were small, instead of the wishy washy, I think this but you can make up your own mind when you're ready, crap. Now I've got confused young people with no bedrock of faith, and an entirely too realistic sense of their proportionate importance to the universe.
Many Christians, including myself, were taught to make up our own minds and found our faith when we could reason it out for ourselves (I was brought up by non-religious parents, other Christians in the same situations were brought up by religious parents, it varies). I am grateful that I could discover my faith for myself. Why is that 'crap' when it has been beneficial for me and my Christian faith?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
But Gwai we're not talking about teaching children ABOUT Christianity here. That's obviously a good thing, along with teaching them about other religions and non-religious world views.
This is a thread about how best to influence a child so that they're most likely to be converted to Christianity. It's about how to brainwash them.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
But Gwai we're not talking about teaching children ABOUT Christianity here. That's obviously a good thing, along with teaching them about other religions and non-religious world views.
This is a thread about how best to influence a child so that they're most likely to be converted to Christianity. It's about how to brainwash them.
I don't think what Gwai is talking about is brainwashing. That's like saying that ear syringing is surgery. Wanting your child to be a Christian because you think it is good for them is not brainwashing and it's sheer hysteria to claim that it is.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
Inculcating religious beliefs in children with the intention of leading them into believing them and adopting that faith. How is that not brainwashing?
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
Inculcating religious beliefs in children with the intention of leading them into believing them and adopting that faith. How is that not brainwashing?
It's not brainwashing just like inculcating the belief that racism is bad in children with the intention of leading them into believing that racism is bad and adopting the principle of not being racist is not brainwashing. Children are at perfect liberty to still be racist after all that. I think it is grossly offensive towards actual survivors of brainwashing such as incestuous abuse survivors to even think of comparing it to raising a child in a particular religion. All parents raise their children to believe particular beliefs, religious or otherwise.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
So why don't you quit, Gwai? Because you want to be a Christian, right? And why is that? Why don't you want to be a Moslem? Or a Shinto priestess?
I'm having trouble following the motivation for this and several of your posts that follow. You want to push people into a corner and then hit them with arguments; trying to understand why.
Not everyone comes to religious belief via ideas. I get that atheists may do the idea thing in the contrary sense, and I have known Christians and others who've come to their beliefs via thought and logic. Some of us get there elsewise. My children, grown now, we talked less, and did more. Aesthetically, For me through music and phrase frequently. I thought CS Lewis understood this when he approached belief via allegory and symbolism. I hear Rutter's 'God Be In My Head' this week; I don't know Yorick if you get moved by anything in the arts. You might understand how this is different than what I see you trying to corner others with.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
I am deeply sorry if anyone here who has survived incestuous abuse or any other brainwashing has been offended by my suggestion that religious indoctrination is synonymous with brainwashing.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
The point I was trying to make to Gwai, no prophet, is that children of Christians are more likely to be Christians than children of Moslems are likely to be Christians, and that the mechanism for this is obviously parental (and local cultural) influence. That's all. No cornering here, and anyway I happen to believe that Gwai is perfectly solid enough to address the issue.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
Have you ever been to Palestine, for all you have an Arabic Sig??
All the Palestinians I met were Christians. And none of them emigrated there, that's the point. Dickhead. Sorry, hosts.can't help it.
Posts: 2138 | From: South, UK | Registered: Aug 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
Yes you can. You know the drill. Personal insults belong in Hell. And that applies to everyone.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
But Gwai we're not talking about teaching children ABOUT Christianity here. That's obviously a good thing, along with teaching them about other religions and non-religious world views.
This is a thread about how best to influence a child so that they're most likely to be converted to Christianity. It's about how to brainwash them.
Yorick you goof. There is a difference between teaching and brainwashing. And if what Christian parents do is brainwashing, how come so many of our children reject the faith? If we're brainwashing, we're obviously no damn good at it.
I want my son to grow up Christian for the same reason I want him to grow up eating his veggies and brushing his teeth--because I honestly, truly believe that these are the best things for him. And being fully convinced of that, I am going to do what I can to promote them (e.g. buying and cooking veggies, nagging about tooth brushing, etc.)
When he is eighteen, if he wishes, he can certainly refuse to brush his teeth. (Ewwwww.) He can refuse to eat anything but McDonald's. (double Ewwwwwwww.) He can even (gasp) reject Christianity. He has a brain of his own, and there's nothing I can do to prevent him using or misusing it according to his own will. All I can do is provide what I honestly, truly believe is the best possible foundation NOW in the hopes that when he is older, he will have that to build on. (if he chooses--please God...)
You, presumably, are providing your children with a different foundation. You are doing so because you honestly feel that it is the best possible thing to do for them. I disagree, but I'm not going to call you a brainwasher for it. You are trying to do the best you can by your kids. So am I. But in the end, the kids are going to do what the kids want to do.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Yorick you goof.
As I said, my warning above applies to everyone.
For goodness' sakes guys, at least try to act refined, or maybe the Hosts will just close this thread and redirect you all to the apparently suitably titled "Suffer Little Children" thread in Hell.
/hosting
[ 05. March 2014, 21:33: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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