Ship of Fools: Why did Jesus cheat?

Thread: Why did Jesus cheat? Board: Oblivion / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

And walk on the water?

Posted by Nicodemia (# 4756) on :

What did you want him to do? Fly?

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

Swim

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
And walk on the water?

To leave another Sign that he could?

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
And walk on the water?

The disciples took the boat and ditched him. Not cool, dudes.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

He told them to go first. So no problem.

But as for "cheating" ... why not? if I could walk on water, I'd have been a lot drier this past winter. And we're only told he did it once, most likely as a sign and not as a personal benefit.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

How is that cheating? What exam was he sitting for?

Posted by pimple (# 10635) on :

Perhaps because the disciples wouldn't have recognised a real miracle if it had jumped into the boat and farted at them.

Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on :

You could ask much the same question about any of the miracles. Almost by definition, a miracle involves a suspension or reversal of natural laws, whether it be walking on water; water spontaneously becoming wine; loaves and fishes spontaneously multiplying; dead people getting better; blind people suddenly able to see; instant cure of leprosy; etc. All of them are forms of "cheating" on the natural world.

Perhaps the point of doing miracles, particularly in the presence of the disciples, is to establish his credentials...that "truly this is the Son of God." Why was that needed? Because Jesus needed these people to spread the Good Word--to become witnesses so that others, who did not see the miracles, might still come to believe. And this brings us to good ol' Doubting Thomas, who despite seeing all the miracles, still wants proof. "Blessed are those who have not seen, yet believe." We who believe in Jesus now are those blessed: believing despite not having seen. And we believe because of the testimony of those who did see--the ones the miracles were performed in front of.

[Edited because I am an idiot. Get used to it.]

[ 28. March 2014, 15:20: Message edited by: Hedgehog ]

Posted by PDA (# 16531) on :

These would be cheating:

http://djoymall.com/image/cache/data/water%20games/DJWG003-500x500.jpg

Doing it with sandals is just showing off IMO

[Edited by Barnabas62. You need to practice providing links here, try the Styx thread and look at the URL button as well]

[ 28. March 2014, 16:55: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

Hedgehog wrote:

quote:
You could ask much the same question about any of the miracles. Almost by definition, a miracle involves a suspension or reversal of natural laws, whether it be walking on water; water spontaneously becoming wine; loaves and fishes spontaneously multiplying; dead people getting better; blind people suddenly able to see; instant cure of leprosy; etc. All of them are forms of "cheating" on the natural world.

That's certainly one way of looking at it. I'm not sure it's very helpful though.

Jesus came to preach the kingdom of God, the fulfilment of God's plan to get us back to the garden, etc. All the gospel writers record that it wasn't just some dreary 19th-century style preachy thing, but that things happened - God's eternal kingdom seemed to keep breaking through. In the Kingdom, people don't die, nor do they suffer blindness, leprosy or anything like that. Nor, if the post-resurrection appearances are anything to go by, are they confined by things like time or space. God's kingdom is an eternal kingdom.

No cheating is required. This is the way things should have been, and will be.

If you continue with the narrative, there is of course a point being made in relation to Peter and whether he sees it and has trust in it.

No cheating was required

Posted by Erroneous Monk (# 10858) on :

So that Simon who was called Peter could leave us the great prayer "Lord: if it's really you, tell me to come to you on the water"

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

He walked on the water because somebody was hissing at him to get off the lawn.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

Because he is the good Shepherd.

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Because he is the good Shepherd.

Ho ho ho!

Posted by hatless (# 3365) on :

He walked on the water to show that it wasn't there. Across the sea meant in a place where people are different and we don't belong. For God it's all one, this side and that, so Jesus wandered across the water to demonstrate that abroad / overseas / foreign parts is just a stroll. He also quelled the disciples xenophobic panic storm.

It's a very well written story.

Posted by Yonatan (# 11091) on :

I think it was an acted parable or theophany. The scene reminds me of the passage of Genesis where the Spirit of God broods over the face of the deep. There is also the statement of Jesus "Do not be afraid, it is I" which could be translated in the Greek as "Do not be afraid, I am".

Posted by QLib (# 43) on :

Jesus could not and would not cheat IMHO. i think it was one of those dreams that seem to speak a truth, and so it was either written down a a truth or because someone somewhere got confused and thought it was literally true. (And also because the boundaries between literal and metaphorical/mythical truth may not have been as closely patrolled then as they are now).

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
And walk on the water?

... have you ever been the Holy Land and seen what they charge for a boat across that lake Martin ?

Incidentally that passage converted me some 14 yrs ago . There's something peculiarly atmospheric about it. Things to do with water often are.

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

Because he didn't want to get his clothes wet?

Curious to know why you think his walking on water was 'cheating'?

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

To be dog in the manger, Jesus never did anything that was remotely self-serving. He kept the fairy-god-mother rules of never blessing Himself. Could this one time be an exception?

I'm intrigued that 'He was about to pass by them' according to Mark. Having walked three or four MILES, out to where He's SEEN them, in the dark on the sea?

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

Hey, Biohazard. As my grandmother used to say, Hold the Phone!

The analysis ought to proceed this way. Most of the actions Jesus performs (there's that pesky word from the Ecclesiantics thread) are performed as profoundly human acts. One could well argue that, in Jesus' kenosis, nothing he does is divine. But, let's prescind from that last statement and look at a human act that Peter performs.

Here is the text from Matt. 14:29:

quote:
And he said, Come. And Peter went down from the boat, and walked upon the waters to come to Jesus.

See what the gospel writer does there? He tells us that Peter walked on the water. He apparently didn't get very far, but he did it.

Jesus in his perfect manhood did it better. No cheating needed.

Or, what Honest Ron said.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

Yo The Silent (HA!) Acolyte.

Walkin' on water AIN'T human. Fixin' lepers and the eyeless and paraplegics ain't human. Water to wine ... killing a fig tree with a word and stopping a storm with one ... not human.

Preaching the gospel? Standing up for a woman about to get murdered by an establishment mob? ... not human! Transcendent.

Yeah the glow rubbed off like it did on Moses for a while. It's been long, long gone. Apart from in the transcendence. That dim glow remains on us.

Posted by gog (# 15615) on :

It could also be seen as an echo of the Genesis text where the Spirit is over the water, and here to is Jesus over the water.

Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Walkin' on water AIN'T human. Fixin' lepers and the eyeless and paraplegics ain't human. Water to wine ... killing a fig tree with a word and stopping a storm with one ... not human.

No not human .
Which is no doubt why Jesus is saving folks today , and will still be saving them 2000 years hence .

And this from a person (me), who craps on about the 'the historical jesus' blah blah blah.
Yeah no such thing as miracles . He had boards on his feet . He gave Lazarus puffer-fish to knock him out for 4 days . He had a load of bread an fishes stashed away somewhere , (Oh and a couple of stone jars full of quality wine ). He survived the crucifixion, etc. etc. etc.

Yeah, so happy in wallowing my own cynicism .... I don't think so.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

Nobody wants or needs to be saved. Just loved. That's salvation.

Posted by bib (# 13074) on :

He walked on water because he could.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

He could fly but He didn't.

Posted by QLib (# 43) on :

I don't think so - in the temptations, isn't the suggestion that, if he threw himself off the high point, angels would bear him up? No suggestion of flying there. But if he could walk on water, he would clearly only do it in situations where there was no possible element of showing off.

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

Martin and others, please engage with what I wrote.

Peter is fully human. He walks on water. Walking on water is a human act.

Jesus is fully human. He walks on water. Walking on water is a human act.

And, what Honest Ron Bacardi said.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

What? Are you fully human? Can you walk on water? The statement appears to be pious nonsense.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

TSA. I did.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
TSA. I did.

Was there a security screening before getting on the boat? What's TSA?

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Martin and others, please engage with what I wrote.

Peter is fully human. He walks on water. Walking on water is a human act.

Jesus is fully human. He walks on water. Walking on water is a human act.

And, what Honest Ron Bacardi said.

Jesus was fully human. Nobody else has been except for pre-lapsarian Adam.

Posted by Truman White (# 17290) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
What? Are you fully human? Can you walk on water? The statement appears to be pious nonsense.

I took that you don't have to be the Son of God to walk on water, but you'll need his help if you end up doing it.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

no prophet. TSA? Look upstream.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Because somebody's got to do it--

Why did Jesus walk on the water? To get to the other side.

[ 29. March 2014, 16:59: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Why did Jesus walk on the water? To get to the other side.

GROOOAAAN!

(although technically it was to get to the middle, innit?)

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
no prophet. TSA? Look upstream.

I suspect it may have something to do with atonement, but I did not find TSA with a word search on the present page, nor in an acronym finder and all internet searches using "religion", "christianity" and other additional terms continue to refer to transportation safety. My conclusions is that you do not want to clarify your use of abbreviation, that you don't know either, or it is a typo for PSA, which of course is prostate specific antigen. [Disappointed]

[ 29. March 2014, 18:43: Message edited by: no prophet ]

Posted by Garasu (# 17152) on :

In this context, I suspect The Silent Acolyte

Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :

Why did Jesus walk on water? Because he knew one day it would drive YOU mad, lol, he's just fucking with you man.

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Why did Jesus walk on the water? To get to the other side.
GROOOAAAN!

(although technically it was to get to the middle, innit?)

Actually Mark's gospel says that he intended to pass them by.

Moo

Posted by Latchkey Kid (# 12444) on :

I think Yonatan is right. The water represents chaos as in Genesis. There is also an allusion to Moses and the Red Sea and a similar story with Joshua.

The church is also pictured as a ship riding on chaos. The disciples need not fear it because Jesus/God is with them. They can even walk on water themselves with Jesus' help. I don't=think it is because we are human that we can ride out chaos, but because Jesus/God is with us to stop us sinking.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Latchkey Kid:
The church is also pictured as a ship riding on chaos.

This is true. One Orthodox[1] title for the church is "the ark of salvation."

quote:
Originally posted by Moo:

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Why did Jesus walk on the water? To get to the other side.
GROOOAAAN!

(although technically it was to get to the middle, innit?)
Actually Mark's gospel says that he intended to pass them by.

So he could be there waiting on the other shore when they arrived, and say, "Ick bün all dor!"[2]

_______
[1]it could be that others also use this metaphor; not claiming exclusive rights.
[2]"I am already here" -- punchline to a German Märchen[3]
[3]fairy (or folk) tale

Posted by Latchkey Kid (# 12444) on :

Thanks mt,
The church as ship (of fools [Biased]

) is also an allusion to the safety Noah's ark provides from chaos.

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

Spend a year on a relatively small boat with all those animals? Think of the stink. Nah...I just assume drown.

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

Biohazard, The closest you get to an actual response is this, "Yeah the glow rubbed off like it did on Moses for a while." All the rest is just proof by assertion. To which I can respond with gainsaying proof by assertion, when I say that fixing lepers, the eyeless, and paraplegics, killing fig trees, stopping storms, preaching the gospel, and standing up for women are all profoundly human actions.

One still has to deal with the text. Peter walks on water. Peter performs a human act.

There are further texts that ought to be pulled into the discussion.

Mark 11:23: Truly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and cast into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says will come to pass, it will be done for him.

John 14:12-14: “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.

Are you afraid to believe these promises? Or do you merely want to creep up to the ridge of Mt. Nebo and fearfully peer over, before scuttling back down.

leo is onto it when he says that post-lapse, only Jesus is fully human. But, Peter has a hope and belief in his post-lapse destiny: He walked on the water. We can, too.

Posted by Latchkey Kid (# 12444) on :

It's a Matthean only story. Peter needs to be invited. He loses it when he takes his eyes off Jesus and looks at the wind. The salvation Jesus brings from the chaos gives the disciples the existential experience that He is the Son of God. This does not mean they stop having doubts. Maybe they figuratively take their eyes off Jesus when they later misunderstand His mission and when they deny Him.

Posted by QLib (# 43) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Peter has a hope and belief in his post-lapse destiny: He walked on the water. We can, too.

No, we can't. Other than in football chants, is there any evidence anywhere of anyone else even claiming to walk on water?

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

The Silent Acolyte. Peace.

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

quote:
Originally posted by QLib:

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Peter has a hope and belief in his post-lapse destiny: He walked on the water. We can, too.
No, we can't. Other than in football chants, is there any evidence anywhere of anyone else even claiming to walk on water?

You are missing the point. Humans can walk on water if God gives them the power. Jesus tells the disciples that they would do greater things than they witnessed Jesus do. Walking on water isn't something God needs to do. God is omnipresent. An omnipresent God has no need to travel.

Posted by QLib (# 43) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:

quote:
Originally posted by QLib:

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Peter has a hope and belief in his post-lapse destiny: He walked on the water. We can, too.
No, we can't. Other than in football chants, is there any evidence anywhere of anyone else even claiming to walk on water?
You are missing the point. Humans can walk on water if God gives them the power. Jesus tells the disciples that they would do greater things than they witnessed Jesus do.

No, you're missing the point. We can't walk on water or fly. There is no evidence that God has ever given anyone the power to do either of these things, other than this one story - which, even if it were literally true, doesn't really count, as Jesus was there in person to assist.

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :

Apparently we have not quite put away childish things.

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

QLib. Absolutely. Nobody has since. And won't. Not this side of being dead. On the flying front, Jesus was tempted to throw Himself off and let God do the intervening. If He could walk on water, He could fly. There's no difference in category. If He could be buoyed up against the laws of physics on sea He could be in air. OK walk on air. Flying would involve miraculous thrust. Just sayin'.

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

But in the air, no traction beneath one's feet to move forward. He could hover, maybe.

Posted by Yonatan (# 11091) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
miraculous thrust

Must ....... not....... make....... joke.......

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Yonatan:

quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
miraculous thrust
Must ....... not....... make....... joke.......

Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :

No. Must not. Sorry for my naïveté. Just DON'T.

Hmmm. The water must have resisted Him laterally, with friction surely? Just upthrust or reactive force to His weight wouldn't be enough. Without ... supernatural thrust He could have very slowly swum in air if He hovered. Or like the water, the air could have become laterally frictive where he stood? If He could walk on air, He could run and fly. But where is the boundary layer? Wherever the bottom of His foot rests? So what happens when He dives forwards? Or backflips? Tricky this theology isn't it?

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

It is clear that Jesus had the same trick that Legolas and the Elves do, for treading lightly over snow and water and rock. What a pity they didn't do archery combat in Galilee, eh?

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
It is clear that Jesus had the same trick that Legolas and the Elves do, for treading lightly over snow and water and rock. What a pity they didn't do archery combat in Galilee, eh?

I think the Judean People's Front actually did.

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

quote:
Originally posted by QLib:

quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:

quote:
Originally posted by QLib:

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Peter has a hope and belief in his post-lapse destiny: He walked on the water. We can, too.
No, we can't. Other than in football chants, is there any evidence anywhere of anyone else even claiming to walk on water?
You are missing the point. Humans can walk on water if God gives them the power. Jesus tells the disciples that they would do greater things than they witnessed Jesus do.
No, you're missing the point. We can't walk on water or fly. There is no evidence that God has ever given anyone the power to do either of these things, other than this one story - which, even if it were literally true, doesn't really count, as Jesus was there in person to assist.

So?

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Apparently we have not quite put away childish things.

If by childish things you mean pseudo-rationalsm, I agree.

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
But in the air, no traction beneath one's feet to move forward. He could hover, maybe.

Rather like St. Mary of Egypt. Isn't she coming up in the calendar soon?

Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
But in the air, no traction beneath one's feet to move forward. He could hover, maybe.
Rather like St. Mary of Egypt. Isn't she coming up in the calendar soon?

This Thursday.

Posted by A.Pilgrim (# 15044) on :

Jesus walked on the water to show that he was God (see Ps.77:16-20 especially v19) and to show that he was Lord of all creation.

This understanding then causes a possible difficulty when it comes to Peter also walking on the water, but it could be that the action thereby shows human authority over creation (the godly expression of which is stewardship, not the ungodly expression which is exploitation) and this stewardship can only be continued while a relationship is maintained with the Lord from whom the authority is derived - Jesus.

As for why Jesus did it, well, why not? It is his prerogative to demonstrate his lordship in any way he wishes to.

Just a thought.
Angus

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