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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Godparents etc
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shamwari
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# 15556
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Posted
A rant. Isnt it time that we abolished Godparents altogether? Together with indiscriminate baptismal services.
What provoked this outburst was the report that Simon Cowell has asked an ex flame ( even the "ex" is debateable) to be godmother to the child of a woman whom he may or may not marry.
And during the baptism service parents and godparents are supposed to be making promises in relation to the Christian Faith and upbringing of the child without necessarily having the slightest idea of what being a Christian involves both in terms of belief and behaviour.
Its about time this sham was ended. A wee bit of honesty on the part of the Church and the Parties involved is required.
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
My view is that if it is clear that neither the parents nor the godparents have any intention of keeping the promises then baptism should be denied. Where it is unclear, the benefit of the doubt should be given.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
I think baptism should be freely available to those who ask for it for their infants. However this shouldn't prevent the church imposing certain conditions on the persons involved, including that one god-parent should be a fully communicant member of a church that is recognised by the church whose minister has been requested to perform the baptism.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Augustine the Aleut
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# 1472
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Posted
I had to google Simon Cowell, which just goes to show how little I know of popular culture. As far as godparents go, they can be quite helpful to children-- I very much appreciated my own godmother's support over the years. I see no harm in the church requiring that at least one of the godparents (if not all) be communicant members and am a bit surprised to learn that this might not be the case (another example of my removal from popular culture). After all, I think that it is someplace written that the abuse of a practice does not negate the use of it.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
In my denom. (PCUSA) parents are free to informally choose godparents, but they have little or no role in the baptismal service, because the vows usually undertaken by godparents are taken by the congregation as a whole-- to support and care for this child and to see to his/her instruction and nurture in the faith. While in practice it may be as variable as godparents are, I like that. When parents did choose godparents, I would usually ask the godparents to stand by the parents in the service, and would introduce them to the congregation. I would explain to them (congregation & godparents) that we are ALL taking these vows, committing to THIS child in particular, and that the godparents were simply the "front line" in that commitment. It takes a village-- or a church.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
I have some sympathy and have clergy friends who operate a 'baptism policy' which leaves parishioners feeling rejected.
On the other hand, I had misgivings that I was 'not up to the job' as a godfather, despite being a daily communicant.
I am glad that I was baptised as a teenager, though church law still required me to have godparents.
But I also know of people who have come to faith as a result of good pastoral work done with parents and godparents.
Less people present for infant baptism now so there should be more pastoral time to deal with them, especially if there is a team of laypeople to assist the priest in preparation.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
A rant. Isnt it time that we abolished Godparents altogether? Together with indiscriminate baptismal services.
What provoked this outburst was the report that Simon Cowell has asked an ex flame ( even the "ex" is debateable) to be godmother to the child of a woman whom he may or may not marry.
And during the baptism service parents and godparents are supposed to be making promises in relation to the Christian Faith and upbringing of the child without necessarily having the slightest idea of what being a Christian involves both in terms of belief and behaviour.
Its about time this sham was ended. A wee bit of honesty on the part of the Church and the Parties involved is required.
My understanding is that Simon Cowell's ex, Sinitta, is actually a Christian, so perhaps he chose her for this reason. As for Cowell, we don't know him as a man who has any time for religion at all; but looks can be deceiving. And remember that Solomon, born from King David's adultery, was loved by his father and blessed by God.
However, both Cowell and his current girlfriend, Lauren, are apparently from Jewish families, which is the main reason why having their baby baptised would be odd. Googling reveals that the couple are considering having a Jewish wedding, and that Cowell is even thinking of converting. I don't know how a baptism would fit in with all of that!
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
I'm all for pre-baptism talks to parents and God-parents, but I don't think that anyone should be vetted to the extent of making a judgement on the validity of their Christianity.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
On the other hand, certain minimal requirements are sensible, e.g. a godparent ought to be a baptized and identifying Christian before agreeing to a support role specifically designed to help the child become both those things.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Weirdly perhaps, but the activity of baptism of a child might have led a parent or two and a god parent or two to something resembling faith that might be remotely acceptable to some of you?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Rowen
Shipmate
# 1194
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Posted
And then there was that time my suitability to be a godparent was called into question...
Could a Uniting Churcch of Australia clergy woman be a godparent in an Anglican Church? The parents thought so, but it took a while to convince the priest.
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"May I live this day… compassionate of heart" (John O’Donoghue)...
Posts: 4897 | From: Somewhere cold in Victoria, Australia | Registered: Aug 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
I had to google Simon Cowell, which just goes to show how little I know of popular culture. ...
There's no need to beat yourself up. Why should you have heard of him? Why should anyone outside the UK have heard of him? There are doubtless plenty of people on Canadian television that are household names in Canada but are completely unknown over here.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Weirdly perhaps, but the activity of baptism of a child might have led a parent or two and a god parent or two to something resembling faith that might be remotely acceptable to some of you?
If you think I'm going to argue with anything, however unlikely, that leads somebody to faith in Christ, you got another think coming. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) I'd go for liturgical lap dancing if that could make it happen.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I'm puzzled over this one. Why is Sinitta a bad choice for godparent? Because she's Cowell's ex? That seems a bit uncharitable, doesn't it? Maybe she's the only Christian that he knows!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
I must admit to some misgivings about godparents after asking my new brother in law to be godfather to my baby. He readily agreed, but it wasn't until his own children were born that I discovered he was a fervent non believer and point blank refused to have his own children baptised. It was my mistake to invite him, but I had no idea of his views(I should have asked). I feel he should have declined the invitation - more fool me! I think people often choose family members or good friends to be god parents without fully knowing about the person's faith. Maybe the minister should question the godparents to see if they are able to sincerely make the promises.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
I remember reading that Sinitta (Cowell's ex) terminated a pregnancy she had with him in the 1980s and it was a source of major regret. So I think it's actually very kind to ask her to be the godmother.
She also describes herself as a born-again Christian:
Telegraph
So this may be a good thing for the child and even the parents.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
posted by seekingsister quote:
I remember reading that Sinitta (Cowell's ex) terminated a pregnancy she had with him in the 1980s and it was a source of major regret. So I think it's actually very kind to ask her to be the godmother.
She also describes herself as a born-again Christian
Why do you think it kind?
Is it the fact that she's an ex-girlfriend or that she had a termination?
My guess is that she has remained a friend and that, if considered at all, her belief is a bonus.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by seekingsister quote:
I remember reading that Sinitta (Cowell's ex) terminated a pregnancy she had with him in the 1980s and it was a source of major regret. So I think it's actually very kind to ask her to be the godmother.
She also describes herself as a born-again Christian
Why do you think it kind?
Is it the fact that she's an ex-girlfriend or that she had a termination?
Finding out that an ex is expecting a child after years of saying he'd never have one has got to be a shock, especially given the termination that she had. Being asked not only to participate in the child's life but to introduce the child to her faith, I think is a very kind thing for Cowell to do, all things considered.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
SS - you still haven't explained why you think it "kind" of Cowell to ask his ex to be a Godmother - all you've done is given a possible reason why SHE would be kind to take it on.
So - HOW / WHY do you think Cowell is being "kind"?
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
Honestly I haven't given the inner workings of Simon Cowell's mind that much thought, apologies for my lack of clarity.
He is kind in considering her feelings after finding out he is having a child with someone else - she may have felt rejected, potentially excluded from his new life with his new family. Making her godmother is a way of involving her intimately and also recognizing that she was very nearly the mother of his first child.
Many women would outright refuse to allow their husband's ex to be godmother to their child so it's kind on his girlfriend's part as well.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
... and also recognizing that she was very nearly the mother of his first child.
I find this sentiment cringeworthy but can't explain why. Can anyone explain me?
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I think Sinitta is one of the pastors at a big gospel church, called Hillsong. I guess she must know a bit about Christianity.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Weirdly perhaps, but the activity of baptism of a child might have led a parent or two and a god parent or two to something resembling faith that might be remotely acceptable to some of you?
If you think I'm going to argue with anything, however unlikely, that leads somebody to faith in Christ, you got another think coming. I'd go for liturgical lap dancing if that could make it happen.
A bishop told such a story, though I'm never sure if these are parables, "based on a true story" or factual.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
In my denom. (PCUSA) parents are free to informally choose godparents, but they have little or no role in the baptismal service, because the vows usually undertaken by godparents are taken by the congregation as a whole-- to support and care for this child and to see to his/her instruction and nurture in the faith. While in practice it may be as variable as godparents are, I like that. When parents did choose godparents, I would usually ask the godparents to stand by the parents in the service, and would introduce them to the congregation. I would explain to them (congregation & godparents) that we are ALL taking these vows, committing to THIS child in particular, and that the godparents were simply the "front line" in that commitment. It takes a village-- or a church.
Ditto. Celebrate God's Presence , the UCCan's service book says that there is no specific role of "godparents" in a UCCan baptism and that that role is taken by the congregation.
Which is exactly what happened two weeks ago when my niece was baptized. I got to be Clerk of Session though. (We have three people who alternate and can sign baptismal certificates in that role)
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think Sinitta is one of the pastors at a big gospel church, called Hillsong. I guess she must know a bit about Christianity.
IME Hillsong pastors know a bit about Christianity.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Baptismal regeneration happens for the baptised, not the parents or godparents - their lack of faith does not somehow limit baptismal regeneration. I couldn't refuse to baptise an infant. As for godparents, I don't know many people who have a particularly close relationship with theirs (I was baptised as an adult so have none).
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
My godparents were GOLD! Especially during my teen years when as far as i was concerned my parents were dreadful and unable to be reasoned with.
But I agree with what Jade says about who baptism is For.(altho a whole heap of others will disagree)
[ 01. April 2014, 20:57: Message edited by: Ethne Alba ]
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Baptismal regeneration happens for the baptised, not the parents or godparents - their lack of faith does not somehow limit baptismal regeneration. I couldn't refuse to baptise an infant. As for godparents, I don't know many people who have a particularly close relationship with theirs (I was baptised as an adult so have none).
How come you didn't have them - your profile says you are Anglican? They might have been named 'sponsors'.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Baptismal regeneration happens for the baptised, not the parents or godparents - their lack of faith does not somehow limit baptismal regeneration. I couldn't refuse to baptise an infant. As for godparents, I don't know many people who have a particularly close relationship with theirs (I was baptised as an adult so have none).
How come you didn't have them - your profile says you are Anglican? They might have been named 'sponsors'.
I was never aware that those being baptised as adults got godparents, and assumed they were for infants. I was baptised as an adult by full immersion in an evangelical Anglican church and it was just never mentioned.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I was never aware that those being baptised as adults got godparents, and assumed they were for infants. I was baptised as an adult by full immersion in an evangelical Anglican church and it was just never mentioned.
This may be an evangelical Anglican thing. We baptize everyone by immersion - even babies! - and I haven't heard anything about godparents. All of the family/friends/loved ones of the candidate are involved and at the front. And in two cases (one baby and one adult) there were even relatives saying the promises over Skype!
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I was never aware that those being baptised as adults got godparents, and assumed they were for infants. I was baptised as an adult by full immersion in an evangelical Anglican church and it was just never mentioned.
This may be an evangelical Anglican thing. We baptize everyone by immersion - even babies! - and I haven't heard anything about godparents. All of the family/friends/loved ones of the candidate are involved and at the front. And in two cases (one baby and one adult) there were even relatives saying the promises over Skype!
At this church there were plenty of more traditional infant baptisms complete with godparents (and not by full immersion), it just wasn't done for adult baptism.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
1. Baptismal regeneration happens for the baptised,
2. the parents or godparents - their lack of faith does not somehow limit baptismal regeneration.
1. There would be some of us on here who disagree with this idea. Sadly it seems enshrined in the Anglican CW liturgy.
2. Parents and Godparents make promises - would you be happy for someone making a promise you know they don't believe? Even here, in a non Anglican setting, we have sponsors from time to time: it's made quite clear that the promises made should be owned by those making them.
Doesn't the CofE allow for a thanksgiving? ISTM the promises there are far more suited for those on the edges of faith so I'm surprised it isn't used more.
3. The idea that being a godparent exposes non believers to faith is an old one. Any evidence that people have come to faith/become part of church as a result?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
1. Baptismal regeneration happens for the baptised,
2. the parents or godparents - their lack of faith does not somehow limit baptismal regeneration.
1. There would be some of us on here who disagree with this idea. Sadly it seems enshrined in the Anglican CW liturgy.
2. Parents and Godparents make promises - would you be happy for someone making a promise you know they don't believe? Even here, in a non Anglican setting, we have sponsors from time to time: it's made quite clear that the promises made should be owned by those making them.
Doesn't the CofE allow for a thanksgiving? ISTM the promises there are far more suited for those on the edges of faith so I'm surprised it isn't used more.
3. The idea that being a godparent exposes non believers to faith is an old one. Any evidence that people have come to faith/become part of church as a result?
Given the Anglican church's standing in the traditions of the historic Church, it shouldn't be surprising that belief in baptismal regeneration is part of that.
Also yes, the CoE allows thanksgivings, but they don't have the same cultural appeal as christenings for those on the fringes of church. It tends to be evangelicals active in the church that have thanksgivings for their babies.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Ethne Alba
Shipmate
# 5804
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Posted
There are plenty of people who have approached a local anglican church, requested baptism for their baby, been encouraged to to continue meeting with memmbers of the church and in the fullness of time have found their own way to a very real faith.
Was it the baptism request that led to their faith?
Well yes...and no.
IME, parents requesting baptism is but one small part of a journey into faith.
Posts: 3126 | Registered: Apr 2004
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
There are plenty of people who have approached a local anglican church, requested baptism for their baby, been encouraged to to continue meeting with memmbers of the church and in the fullness of time have found their own way to a very real faith.
"Some" rather than"plenty". If it was "plenty" the churches would be a lot fuller.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
This may be an evangelical Anglican thing. We baptize everyone by immersion - even babies!
Interesting. I've been in Lutheran and Reformed circles where baptising babies by full immersion was technically available. Though in practice, the parents usually opted for for a sprinkling rather than a dunking.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I was baptised as an adult by full immersion in an evangelical Anglican church and it was just never mentioned.
Then it wasn't a C. of E. baptismal rite. See para 6 p. 21.
There is no page 21 in that document.
I see the following:
"The candidates may be presented to the congregation. Where appropriate, they may be presented by their godparents or sponsors."
"The president or another minister dips each candidate in water, or pours water on them"
What about Jade's baptism is invalid, in your view?
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I was baptised as an adult by full immersion in an evangelical Anglican church and it was just never mentioned.
Then it wasn't a C. of E. baptismal rite. See para 6 p. 21.
Sponsors and godparents are optional, they are not essential for baptism. It was a totally valid CoE baptism and followed the CW rite.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Higgs Bosun
Shipmate
# 16582
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Posted
I don't see anything in the rubric which requires candidates who are old enough to answer for themselves to have sponsors (or parents and godparents).
Posts: 313 | From: Near the Tidal Thames | Registered: Aug 2011
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
The BCP also states that "So many as intend to be partakers of the holy Communion shall signify their names to the Curate, at least some time the day before." See here
Have I been receiving communion illegally all these years?
[ 03. April 2014, 17:36: Message edited by: Spike ]
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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3rdFooter
Shipmate
# 9751
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:
I don't see anything in the rubric which requires candidates who are old enough to answer for themselves to have sponsors (or parents and godparents).
The BCP is still default and canon law has not rescinded the requirement in the rubrics on the first page
I read that rubric as saying that someone is expected to stand up, present the candidate for baptism and affirm that, to the best of their knowledge, the candidate has not previously been baptised. Substantially different from a god parent who takes the baptismal promises on behalf of someone too young to make those promises for themselves.
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3F - Shunter in the sidings of God's Kingdom
Posts: 602 | From: outskirts of Babylon | Registered: Jul 2005
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Christ is The Way, not the BCP.
It's never a good idea to change law and custom on the basis of hard and extreme cases, and anything featuring Simon Cowell is extreme on the basis of celebrity status alone.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
I was baptised at the age of 13, a very long time ago in the days of the BCP, I had neither Godparents or sponsors. I was told that I didn’t need them, as I was old enough to take the promise for myself. After all I was getting confirmed the next week and about to make those promises for myself anyway.
We had two candidates for baptism and confirmation at the same service last year – neither had godparents or sponsors.
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
I was also baptised as an adult in an Anglican Church with no Godparents or sponsors.
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Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I had 3 sponsors, chosen by myself, when I was baptised, using that 1662 rite.
Suitably qualified theologically I hope?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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